JOHN BUTLER

3 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER  Well... that would be in "good standing" within the JW community which as you are well aware.... means they would be a "friend of the GB" as you put it above.

@admin who owns this site doesn't care what religion one is...he is agnostic at best. He wanted this club to be off in it's own corner...

I asked him to make my own "JW's only" club to accomodate like minded people in their own area. 

This Public Club will stay here where I am more relaxed on people questioning etc....

I do get ticked off though when people's comments are completed unrelated and off topic (oh.. and spammers)

Fair comment. Do I get to view inside this exclusive Club ? Or is it going to be a place where ex JW's are 'talked about' in secret.  

Enjoy your new private club. 

39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have an idea you know nothing about the Pharisees and the Talmud - Mishna and all that - the reason you can compare the GB to the Pharisees.  Also not the history of Israel from 200 BCE to 70 CE and the Greek influence in Palestine..... if you knew the history - then you might have respect for the GB..... and not be so quick to make comparisons....

It seems we are being told that we are totally off topic. The comparisons I made still stand. 

I'm still ploughing through the complete works of Josephus, slowly. But my life has other interests and 'duties'. 

We must agree to differ, on everything it seems. When I have time i will look into Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and possibly Lucian. But my mind is not so good as it was 60 years ago.  When i was nine I was told I was above average IQ.  Average must have been very low.  

8 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

Done! 

 

One question is 'In good standing' with Whom ? And the idea is one from a dictator it would seem. A friend of the GB. 

Of course if one is afraid of being questioned, then just say so. Or, if one is frightened of truth and needs somewhere to hide, then that club seems understandable. 

If it is a joke, then it is kinda funny. And if Admin wishes to kick me out / off of this forum then so be it.  There is only so much that can be said, and i do get fed up of being constantly challenged on the same issues, hence I repeat the same answers. Yes it gets boring and totally off topic but do you really expect me to back down on such important issues ?  Please advise others then to make a different topic if they wish to keep harassing me.  

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You have not done your research on pedophilia..... I can see that.  You have not done your research on the outcome on the Australian enquiries and how many organizations participated...... so do not be an  "accuser" like satan when you know little of the history...... 

I will just mention one item to you because I think you are very uninformed ....... 

There were no laws in any country against pedophilia in the 50s and sixties.    Governments are to blame because there were no laws in place.  People were too afraid to openly speak about it.   It was only in the late 60s and seventies that we find newspapers starting to talk about this.  How do I know?  I worked for newspapers........   

So in the fifties and sixties the JWs  at least kept track of brothers they  did not have sufficient proof for to put them out of congregation.  When the suspect moved to new  congregation the next congregation was notified.... this is what they did during the 50s and 60s.  This is way too little  that was done but still much more than most other sports associations did or even other churches did at the time.   Child molestation is everywhere you find children -  it is everywhere.  Sports associations and scouts etc etc.  

It was only in the 80s when one could get a possible conviction - but it is a crime hard to prove.  Very important! - As late as  2003 the first law in America appeared to protect the child from being cross-examined in court in front of the perpetrator - this was a second trauma to the child...... so I would say that legislation was to blame for the nonchalant approach to this problem.  in 2003 the law allowed for a recording to be used....   Today - it still a problem to get child services to properly evaluate children because most counties  do not have funds to give proper support services. 

Legislation took so long because the top echelons of society such as judges and many legislators are part of child sex rings - or do you really live in a world of naivety?  most of these people have their cases suppressed - or do you think you live in a fair society?  Think again.  In England now there has been suppression of rape cases for 15 years because the perpetrators were of a race that was "sensitive" for police authorities.

At present the age of consent is getting lower and lower - did you not notice that?  In California it has changed - so it is viewed as consensual sex when a child is involved.  With Islamic 10 year old marriages and Female genital mutilation things are changing fast.....  and in many countries police do not even follow it up any more.  Only in America one finds people who want to make a buck from their suffering go to court and the law is kinda retro-active because people judge 40 year cases on the current laws and not on the laws that were in place at the time.....

  So there is just a little for you to think about before you spew you accusations again...... So this is why I left the forum because one has to constantly deal with people who spew deceptive information and have not made sure of their facts or do not want to know what is the truth.  They just need an eco-chamber....

 

Make your own excuses if it pleases you. I'm just laughing at you. 

I have info' on the Royal Australian Commision.

I have info on Canada, supreme Court of Quebec.

i have info' on the Netherlands. inc Reclaimed Voices.

I have info on the UK, where i am. Charity Commision and IICSA 

I have info on USA, 

I have info on Spain, 

And i have some info on a case of child abuse within my ex congregation of Honiton Devon, which some on here have told me i should go to the police with. 

As for your stupid idea that governments were to blame, pathetic excuse. I would have thought you would have known your bible well enough to know God's rules and laws on such matters. Hiding pedophiles within the congregations, not telling congregants that there is a pedophile in their congregation. Calling victims liars and even to the point of disfellowshipping some to try to keep them quiet. Telling victims and their families not to report things to the Police. None of that shows love, empathy, sympathy, or respect, to anyone. And it is in total opposition to God. 

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Mr Butler - you find this fabulous because it is an eco-chamber.  You saying that what I said fits the GB- this indicates you do not understand what I said.   The GB is part of a nation - these people are not.  Most probably like you they have lost their privilege to be a witness and now take to revenge on internet to justify their positions - something I see here all the time.  The OCD syndrome..... over and over the same of same....  I learnt nothing new here and I did not in the past.    

Oh dear, so you do not know that I resigned from the JW Org. I deliberately left the Org because of the disgusting things going on within it. The fact that 120 to 150 people from my ex congregation stopped conversing with me because they are all frightened of the Elders and frightened of being disfellowshipped, is their own loss. I would have passed on the things I have learnt to them, and would have given them warnings, but they choose not to converse. I do not go in for revenge, i prefer facts of truth as far as i can establish  them. But unfortunately doing so is difficult because of the fear within the JW org. 

By the way I presume you meant echo not eco. 

Quote : "The GB is part of a nation " So were the Pharisees and look what happened to Jerusalem. 

As for your parrot fashion OCD syndrome remark, you can easily be seen to be copying your 'gods' the GB. 

Keep on serving you 'gods' the GB of JW Org. The same way the Jews served the Pharisees and Sadducees and note how they finished up. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Jesus had insight which you do not have..... unless you think you are especially gifted.

Jesus was loving to everyone except the Pharisees.  I see a lot of ignorance and arrogance here on this forum.  One cannot answer anyone that thinks they have all the answers and give themselves the right to put themselves on a pedestal - they suffer from the same disease as the Pharisees.

People here think they are especially intellectual.  Logic don't work in them.

However I see you avoided answering the questions. Making excuses is of no use. 

If you're read many of my comments you will know that I've said, I do not KNOW the TRUTH about anything. 

What can be seen is the GB of the JW Org that have placed themselves on that pedestal, and you know it. Those 8 men that CALL THEMSELVES the Faithful and Discreet Slave. And I agree with you that they suffer from the same problem as the Pharisees. And yes logic does not work in them, neither does love, as can easily be seen with the serious problem of the Child Abuse / Pedophlilia within the JW Org. 

Mr Butler -  so loving ...     How loving did the Pharisees and others think Jesus was when Jesus cleansed the Temple ?

How loving did the Pharisees think Jesus was when Jesus called them hypocrites, and told them they were from their father the Devil ?

True criticism is not from hate, it is from a love of Almighty God and His son Jesus Christ. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Mr Butler -  so loving - I do not need cuddling - definitely not from you  and I am not easily deceived as you are.  You have found yourself an eco-chamber here that is all!   People who encourage you in your folly!

That is why I left -  it has become an eco-chamber for apostates - not people who can reason objectively! 

Perhaps you left because you cannot 'reason objectively'. Is the saying steel sharpens steel or something like that.

I find this forum fabulous for helping me see different viewpoints. 

Of course I have my own views, just as you have. And yes i get a bit uptight as most people do in life.

For instance, and of course you will not be interested, but to put things into real life perspective. Our hot water boiler has just, this morning, decided to leak, over all the clean dry linen in the airing cupboard. So i had to leave this forum and do some practical work, to basically clean up the mess and sort out more washing. No i don't leave everything to my wife. So just another tiny pressure to add to other things. What I'm saying is, when folks come to this forum, they may have other problems on their minds. So you may get remarks that are straight and blunt.

But if you cannot stand the heat then get out of the kitchen. Don't use the excuse that the kitchen should not be so hot. 

And once again you make yourself look so silly. The echo chamber idea fits more with the JW Org, not those of us that have started thinking and investigating for ourselves.  JW's are taught to obey without question. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Then you end up trusting the deceivers?    

I am not deceived by those anointed who are jealous of the control by others - as they wish to depict the situation.  This means they want a bigger say - more control?  Want to be central in the decision making?   .... because they are the true anointed?   .......  True anointed are very humble and do not think they have all the knowledge which others do not have even if they are taught by jehovah.   They will keep peace at all costs because righteousness only grows where there is peace and peacemakers are blessed by Jehovah......  These people oppose the GB..... and where can they go? They are not peacemakers but destroyers and sowers of doubt - in very subtle ways! 

The bible clearly says that Jehovah has one mountain of worship in the last days where all will stream to learn the laws from heavenly Zion and they will learn war no more  Is 2:2-4.  These dissenters have no nation - they are  dissenters to criticize and go about deceiving and sowing doubt - great!   This proves they have all the qualities such as mentioned in Gal 5:22 such as patience, love, joy, etc?   Not on your life!     They see themselves as the true anointed separate from the organization???  I have read no scripture to this effect.

Satan loves control - even in minute ways.  People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate ... such as quoting scriptures to deceive!  I am not taken in by this and neither should you.  These people have the wrong spirit even if they can quote the bible ad nauseum out of its correct context! 

The organization was cleaned up after 1914 but it was not perfect......  The organization is being cleaned up as we go along and the light is getting brighter... of course Rutherford did stupid stuff - but so did Israel - the nation which Jehovah used before!    But we have a long way since then....... and all this unhappiness is about the POSITION -  not being acknowledged as true anointed and appointed to lead?.   I say their arrogance has made them lose their opportunity to lead.    If they are not careful and do not repent they will be permanent ly rejected by Jehovah and will not be sealed before their death.  

They are suffering from the same sickness as Satan had ..... hence the OCD. 

Everything you have said about others, just perfectly fits the description of the GB. That is sooo funny. 

they want a bigger say - more control? Yes the GB do, that's why they hushed up the rest of the Anointed. 

People can use their power over others to deceive...... manipulate. Yes the GB do. Then constantly moving the goal posts to make sure they keep in control. 

The organization is being cleaned up as we go along ..  Let's hope it is. Removal of the GB would prove it. A new GB would be great if they were truly prepared to serve God properly. 

And as for you loving of OCD, you are only copying the GB once again. The GB have said that some who claim to be of the Anointed are actually mentally ill. Do you or your GB honestly think you have been given the right to JUDGE. I thought Jesus had paid the price and was given the authority to judge. 

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Another session where it starts off with 'Jehovah's name' and then turns into a bashing session.  Obsessed with bashing?  What kind of Christian quality is that?   most apostates have OCD - I recognize the signs immediately! They have an emotional sickness - they spend their time bashing........ So I will get back to the subject - that of Jehovah's name.   

There are now more than 1000 extant manuscripts where the pronunciation of name "jehova" appears.  Any case, you need no other proof than the names Jeho-ram, jeho-safat, and hallelu-jah to know what the syllables were before.  Plain common sense - unless you do not want to accept this and are smarter than the scholar who has been collecting copies of these extant copies all over the world. 

Wow you are sooooo clever you can diagnose people's 'sickness' via the internet. Clairvoyant are you ? Be careful i think that is demonism. 

No, what the reality is, is simple. It seems that you do not like truth or logic. What you call bashing, would have been bred into you by the GB/Elders/JW Org. The real word is questioning, but of course the GB/Elders/JW org do not want questioning. 

I've been given to understand that Jesus' real name is something like Yeshua. Yes or No ?  And i was always taught the tetragrammaton was YHWH not JHVH. Correct of not ? Now if that Tetragrammaton had a meaning / descriptive of God, then i would have thought by altering the letters it would alter the meaning. Just the thoughts of a simple man. 

and all those names you have quoted, could they have originally have started with 'Y' instead of 'J'  

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of those two, only Russell was removed from the "list." Rutherford remains, but some of Rutherford's faults have been candidly admitted. I wouldn't say anyone has "disowned" Rutherford, although I worked with two brothers in the 1970's who still admitted that they held a strong grudge against the judge. If you know some of the stories about him it's a lot easier to read between the lines in the publications and from experiences various brothers had with him that have been mentioned in interviews. But you don't have to be liked to be faithful and discreet. There are a few things I don't like about Rutherford and a few that I do like. I don't think of him as a key part of the FDS nor any kind of "foundation stone." Among many righteous and courageous things he stood for, he was instrumental in keeping control of the assets of the Watchtower Society, and that name, having been associated with Russell and the work of the Kingdom as they understood it, kept a core portion of Bible Students together at a critical time. Otherwise, it's possible that Rutherford might have become a footnote.

A couple things make no sense, because human traditions create strongly entrenched things. Things just get more awkward when someone has to grasp at straws to make sense of things after they have been proven to be obsolete. Outside of about 5 topic areas, however, I happen to think that most things make even more sense now, especially looking at all the changes since about the year 2000. Also, I think we've dropped a lot of things that just can't be made to work anymore, but the WTS hasn't completely abandoned the ideas completely and has sometimes chosen untenable solutions to issues created by the older teachings. It's like sewing new patches of unshrunk cloth on old garments. After everything is "cut and dried," it just doesn't wash!

All anointed Christians are no longer identified as THE faithful and discreet slave. But this wouldn't stop anointed Christians from being faithful and discreet slaves. This is something that all Christians are supposed to be, no matter what they claim to know about their ultimate place where they will serve in God's Kingdom throughout their eternal lives. True Christians who are faithful and discreet slaves will have this attitude:

• (1 Peter 4:10) . . .To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.
• (1 Corinthians 4:2, 3) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . .

I agree that it is an unfortunate circumstance that has probably led the Governing Body to believe that they need to bestow this title upon themselves to be respected for "authority" they believe is necessary to effectively lead thousands of local congregations and millions of brothers and sisters. I think it is a human failing to be expected in every religious organization on earth. For me the point of an organization is the idea that it provides a ready-made social group with which we can begin putting our Christianity into practice. It's a support group for the stronger to help the weaker, the richer to help the poorer -- and for all to provide an example to one another, both physical and spiritual encouragement and nourishment to one another. 

Such a group will be expected to put forth a set of teachings, which might be half right and half wrong, but it's a start for us to discuss. As the teachings are tested and questioned, the surer things and the more important things will rise to the top. It's true, as you say, that weak elders will not question and will become "policemen." But it is still our duty to test and question. If we are kicked out for it, so be it. If the "policemen" think it's right to break up families and natural affection over such questions then this is a tragedy and needs to be changed if we want to be Christian. Christianity is a constant fight for righteousness. It's easier in a social group of like minded persons, even though a social group, being human, will naturally have abusers who want to rise to the top just to be "policemen."

*** w77 10/1 p. 599 The Christian Congregation and Its Operation ***

• They are not governors or “masters” of the lives or faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but are viewed as brothers and equals having a duty of stewardship. —1 Cor. 4:1, 2; 2 Cor. 1:24; 1 Pet. 4:10.

Back in 1977, discussing the Governing Body, this verse from 2 Cor was included along with the two other scriptures I already quoted above. The one I hadn't quoted yet was the middle one:

• (2 Corinthians 1:24) Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

This is one big problem. I'm not minimizing it. We no longer encourage the hiding of child abuse. It still happens, of course. I think it's from shame. We just don't want to admit something so horrible is as much among us as among others. Those who think it's best to hide it are not thinking the way Jehovah wants us to think; they are not thinking about what true justice really is. It's rampant criminal stupidity, and we are not immune.

True. Some have left, thinking this might allow them to push for change more effectively. Some, in the past, have pushed on the issue and then even been pushed out when they did not want to leave. But you left and I wonder if you really think that it made more people aware of the problem, than if you had just brought it up matter-of-factly in normal conversation to as many people as possible first, before leaving. Also, don't you think that this really requires a top-down approach. And by the way, I know of an elder in California who has stepped down and discontinued his former level of association with the congregation and who spends much time actively campaigning for worldwide change and national political change on this issue. If he is to be believed, he has not been approached by any persons or committee about disfellowshipping or disassociation. I honestly don't think the WTS would ever want to make a move against such a person again. It would be devastating to the current and potential court cases. Also, note that in recent court cases there are apparently less of them trying to mitigate against the seriousness of the specific crime itself. They are primarily trying to mitigate against financial loss to the corporate entities whose representatives argue that the responsibility for child sexual abuse does not lie in following the promoted rules, guides, and processes of the WTS, which they also believe, in good faith, have been Bible-based.

True. I don't expect the leadership of any human organization to be perfect. Ultimately we must be, and it should always guide our motives and goals. But don't expect it anywhere. As TrueTomHarley has often tried to point out, we might expect that Christian methods of dealing with the issue might make our numbers (statistics) actually come out better when compared against institutions of the world. Perhaps they already are. But there are factors that might fight against this, too. Just as Catholics bring supposedly celibate men into the priesthood, Witnesses attract persons who believe that association alone might change their wicked desires. Witnesses might also attract those who believe that fellow Witnesses are extremely trusting and naive, "babes to badness" as it were.

If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

I think that most if not all the current Governing Body are doing a pretty good job as expected in most areas of concern. But they are also steeped in our own long organizational tradition, and captivated by the idea that they have been asked to serve in an awesome, overwhelming position of responsibility. One of those areas of responsibility is finding and choosing others who should be asked to serve in such a position. In such a situation, I don't see them as bad or unworthy, but just trying to do the best they can in the situation they find themselves serving. An ex-member who was a strong critic of the Governing Body called it being "captives of a concept." The same ex-member said that a big part of that "concept" is based on seeing certain changes as inconceivable, especially where it comes to a perceived need to "police" the faith of millions of followers. I think you (and the ex-JW I refer to) are both partly right in this regard. Because their vantage point sees reports of activity always "rolled up" in terms of a works-based faith, it will likely be a while before we see a change from "activity-based faith" to "faith-based activity." As people who came up through the rules of the organization as they have always been, it's probably all they are seeing every day, and it's so much to deal with that they haven't yet looked very far outside the box.

It's a quarter to 11 am here in Devon England, and I haven't been out of bed long. The reason i tell you this is to say that I'm not too wide awake yet. BUT having read through your answer to my comment, you seem  to be agreeing with me on a lot of things, only then making excuses for the GB and JW Org. 

Quote : If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

First off, I do not think the GB are up to the job, and that is probably of their own doing. I feel that the GB need removing and replacing. I find it strange that some folks on here get so upset by this idea. Don't they know how many people God has removed in the past. Don't they think on the punishments God gave to His own Nation. In my opinion it would make more sense to have a GB of 12 men (for obvious reasons, 12 tribes, 12 Apostles, although there were actually 13 of each) and for those 12 men to be from different countries / nations. To have basically 8 American White men  (yes I know 7 are white and 7 are American ) but it seems a bit racist / nationalistic to me. Not in the true sense obviously but, one thing that has been said about the Heavenly Class, is that they know about our feelings and can have empathy, because they were once here on this Earth with us. So, along those lines,  if there were 12 men from different countries, they would better understand the culture / way of thinking / behavior etc, of 'their own people' / people of their own human race. 

The JW Org. As I've said before, is like a Taxi. If it's going in the right direction you stay in it. If it goes in the wrong direction you get out asap. Now if that Taxi breaks down, you either repair it or replace it. So, the JWorg. It seems to be either going in the wrong direction or it's broken down and going nowhere. I would honestly love to see it cleaned up by God through Jesus Christ. Because of course honest hearted people desperately need an honest spiritual organisation. It make no sense to me, if we are sooooo near Armageddon, to have the Org broken down and in a disgusting state. 

I keep coming back the the 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' scripture. And someone else on here (sorry forgotten whom) said that this is already happening, and has given me direction to another web site. But I haven't investigated that yet and i will use caution when i do. 

My feeling are that true Anointed ones would not be on this here site /forum. And I feel they would be gathering together, not disagreeing with each other. BUT as I've said before, I have found in my life that I do not know the truth about anything. 

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

I left this forum before because the hate is just too much for me here.  It is a breading ground for all the dissenters.   I prefer to discuss world affairs in light of prophecy where I do not have to deal with people who visit a site like this just to vent their emotions which makes them illogical and full of hatefulness.   I have seen arrogance here that it is just too much to waste my time to deal with.  

Fools - yes fools - because the bible calls those foolish ones who spend their time in the pursuit of breaking down.  They cannot think for themselves or ponder on the fact that the history of Israel is given as an example to us.   They were the people of Jehovah (in a covenant relationship with him) but you can study all the IMPURITIES and injustice that infiltrated the nation despite their having a law to teach them what is right and wrong.  Their management of course went without a hitch!  They were just perfect - so perfect that Jehovah never had to bring all the curses upon them described in Deuteronomy!       Despite all this waywardness of the nation and individuals, Jehovah managed to bring his plan to fruition to bring forth the Messiah - exactly on time!     

Today Jehovah also has a nation in a covenant relationship with him.  Are they perfect!  Hell NO!  They are prone to the same sins as everyone else... but they are fulfilling the prophecies of warning the entire earth to remain NEUTRAL to world politics and remain within his principals.  They definitely are PURE regarding the teachings of trinity, hellfire, pagan traditions, and immortality of the soul and many more.  Are there wayward individuals whose hearts are not PURE - definitely.   But Jehovah removes his spirit from them if they persist in their ways - especially if they are just critical and do not appreciate the good things they have learnt!   They are like Esau and they do not have the qualities of the spirit.  As far as I remember hate and criticism of brothers is not a fruit of the spirit. .....    I would just like to have a logical conversation without all these nasty qualities always sticking out as the main theme! 

If you cannot face the truth then go somewhere else if you need to be cuddled. 

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

 

If all you do is play Monopoly ... you begin to think the cash is real, and the board game is real.

 

 

 

I'm in serious mood as it's 10.30 pm and I'm tired. So i have no idea what this riddle is about and probs will not find out. 

Goodnight to all. 

25 minutes ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER  I like this quote from JW Insider;  " I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place".

There are none so blind as those that do not want to see. 

IT IS THE GB THEMSELVES THAT PUT THEMSELVES ON THAT PEDESTAL. 

The GB call themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave. It is the GB that tell the others of the Anointed to keep quiet and not be noticed. 

It is the GB that say the rest of the Anointed are NOT of the Faithful Slave class. 

It is the GB that make all the rules and the Elders act like Policemen obeying those rules without question. 

It is the GB's system of GOVERNING that stops congregants making changes where changes are needed. 

YOU PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT WORSHIP YOUR GB.  Stop trying to pretend that you don't. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

That has happened, but it's not what I said. There was a time when the focus was always on Russell and how great he was as one of the major historical contributors to the "faithful and discreet slave." We had a doctrine that claimed that there were always members of this faithful and discreet slave alive at any given time on the earth since the Christian congregation was formed just after Pentecost of 33 CE. 

In fact, there was a research assignment for history buffs that was supposed to become a part of the "Proclaimers" book, that was supposed to go into a lot more detail about some of the groups that our publications had identified in the past, who were typically persecuted for not believing in the Trinity (Arians, for example), and those who stood up against the powerful religious leaders of their time and tried to publish truths for wider distribution to everyone. The GB members behind this effort were so disappointed in the results that they dropped the idea from the "Proclaimers" book, and began to drop the teaching altogether, so that we rarely spoke any more about about Arius, Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Waldenses, etc. 

The focus of that book became a chance to show how Russell stood out among those he had learned from: Grew, Stetson, Brown, Miller, Paton, Seiss, Storrs, Barbour, etc. But even this effort began to show that Russell was rather eclectic, and was just as apt to pick up a wrong idea as a good idea and run with it. But the biggest "new" issue that was being learned about Russell was that so many of the early Bible Students who followed Russell were actually in an end-times chronoloy cult. This was not Russell's fault, but he had the kind of convincing personality that drew people to him. Rutherford was a Russellite cult member too for many years. But it was in 1919 that Rutherford realized this. If Rutherford had not used shrewd (and technically illegal) means to grasp the Watchtower organization from the majority of the Russellite leadership that Russell had chosen, then the Watchtower would probably still be just another Russellite "cult."

The real cut-off from Russell began in 1919, and it took another decade for Rutherford to completely figure out how to do that. And this is one of the reasons that the Watchtower today, since 2012, teaches that the true "faithful and discreet slave" no longer includes Russell, even though for many years up until 1919, Russell was had been considered to be the ONLY member of the "faithful and discreet slave."

I'm not saying that the current Governing Body necessarily did the right thing in identifying only themselves as the current FDS, but at least, since 2012, they have taken measures to remove much of the emphasis on Russell himself, by removing him from any identification with the  "faithful and discreet slave."

Yet when i and others say that the Governing Body cannot be of the Faithful and Discreet slave because of their many faults, we are seen as wrong. But the GB can 'remove' Russell,  because they suddenly say he wasn't one of them. Quite funny I think. 

Once again you are worshipping men. Your GB have become like gods to you. 

40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Anna and Outta Here have already said it and pointed to material that says it, and I'm sure you have heard the argument before while associating with Witnesses. But here it is again: there is a logical problem with your argument. God's name in Hebrew is YHWH, true, but this doesn't automatically mean that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation. Why not Yehowah? In fact, there are languages today where the most common pronunciation of the Divine Name is exactly that: Yehowah.

Admittedly this was influenced from English, and a major contributor to the popularization of that form of the name was a Catholic monk. But as Anna said, there are other names where we use a modern English or other modern-language equivalent. The name for Jeremiah was YRMYH. Do you argue,  why not Yarmayah? It's possible (though highly unlikely) that this was how it was pronounced. But some modern languages will pronounce it Yeremiah, even in the WTS publications in those languages. The divine name is a special case and perhaps this means we should give it special scholarly treatment in selecting the most likely pronunciation. However, even here, if it turned out to be Yahweh, that form in English would be Jahveh. We don't say Yeshuah, we say Jesus (because that form of the name Joshua had already been "hellenized" to Yesous.) Sometimes the change is even more significant, like Yakob to James or even Santiago.

To me, these arguments sound a bit like straining the gnat, but not very consistently.

My point was that Anna said it in such a 'matter of fact' way. God's name is Jehovah, no argument type of way. 

JW's are taught such and go out into the ministry and teach it as such. PARROTS, without questions. 

The only ones that would have any real idea of how God's name is to be pronounced are the truly Anointed ones. And that cannot be the GB of JW Org. Why ? Because of the way they have proved themselves to be the Wicked slave. 

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I have never heard this expression "human foundation stones of the JW. org, but I know what you mean. However, I see that you still have some trust in the organization. You must have at least had some to be able to say that it is now less.

But this wasn't the point. I think people make too much of the humans who have been used and involved in the history of the Org. It is what it is, and for me the organization represents the most respectable attempt in recent history to present an international teaching ministry, making Bible teaching available for free to nearly the entire world. It's a teaching that is consistent, gives hope, encourages high morality, and presents a Christianity that has excellent advantages over other forms. You may disagree over some of the basic fundamental teachings of JWs, I happen to agree with the basics. I disagree with what I consider a lot of less significant issues, and for most of these disagreements, it means almost nothing in the scheme of things. There are a few moderately important issues that I disagree with, but I think these are also already on the way out. (I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. -- And, yes, one of the things I disagree with is our general inability to use the term "false doctrine" to refer to a past teaching that turned out to be false.)

I know your biggest issue, you said, was the child abuse issue, and I agree that it is big. Much bigger than most Witnesses realize. But as many have said, we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters. We may have needed big improvements in our processes, just as so many other institutions have needed. We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light. But you sometimes give the impression that anytime a serious sin is seen in this organization that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership as others, and from what I know, they are trying to do a good job going forward, and have a weakness in the area of admitting mistakes of the past. I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place.

If we can see the human leadership as just as sinful and imperfect as the rest of us, this is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. And there are plenty of good reasons to make note of their imperfections and sinfulness. It's not to find fault and make you trust them less; it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more.

@JW Insider That expression came from my own head. 'Human foundation stones'  Those two men R & R are sometimes put 'on high' and then sometimes 'disowned'. I find that funny. It seems they were once seen as part of the Faithful Slave and are now seen to be NOT of the Faithful Slave. 

Trust in the CCJW ?   Well you will know my personal history of course, so when my brother introduced me to the JW Org (as I tend to call it)  I found that it made sense and people were kind and helpful. However over the years the things I was first taught have been 'wiped out', and therefore things make less sense. And the fact that the Anointed have been pushed to one side and the GB have chosen to exalt themselves, by calling themselves the Faithful and discreet slave, whereas all of the Anointed were once the Faithful and discreet slave,  this shows a dictatorship within the JW org.  The Elders unfortunately are just Policemen, obeying orders from the GB through the 'chain of command'.  A few bits of the teachings are still 'sound' but the whole Organisation is in deep trouble, more so with God than with men. 

Quote : 'encourages high morality'. UM questionable don't you think, in view of the massive amount of HIDDEN  Child Abuse Earthwide within the JW Org.   (and you will know i have some details of such a case within my ex-congregation). Then to hide the Child Abuse even more the GB start accusing adults (one male one female) of fornication, when NO WITNESSES  are needed to confirm it. Nice try at a diversion.  

Quote ; "(I notice that, as an organization, we are almost able to laugh at ourselves with respect to some of these past errors and false doctrines. ". UM, don't you consider the facts of collateral damage ? Do you laugh at the number of people you have stumbled by false teachings ? 

Quote : "we don't produce pedophiles and child molesters"  NO BUT THE ORGANISATION HIDES THEM WITHIN.  Refuses to hand over documents which could lead to Pedophiles being prosecuted and put in prison where they belong. And if a person needs mental care / help then giving info to authorities would help that person. And WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS ?  Do you think they are all liars ?  Do you think all of them Earthwide have made it all up just to get money from the Org ? 

Quote "We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light."   I did i left the JW org, and that is what eveyone should have done.   Trying to 'push for improvement' whilst in the Org would get a person disfellowshipped for 'Causing division within the congregation'. My brother is an Elder, i asked his advice before i made my decision. 

Quote :" just as so many other institutions have needed ". Stop making comparisons. Your Org is supposed to be No part of the World, so why compare with others that are Part of the World.   

Quote :" that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership .. 

Matthew 5 v 48  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Quote : " it's to make us trust the leadership of Jesus and Jehovah, all the more. " If the GB came off of their pedestal and DID trust God and Jesus more then they wouldn't allow so many false teachings / lies in the Org. AND the GB would allow ALL of the Anointed to be recognised and be of the Faithful Slave. 

However, i am in agreement with others on here, that the GB are showing themselves to be the Wicked Slave class, mistreating the 'domestics'.  

In my opinion big changes are coming. The GB have to be removed, in any way that God chooses. The JW Org may have to be destroyed, if God chooses to do it, or to let it be done. As in the destruction of Jerusalem. 

@Witness So then, assassination of the Governing Body of CCJW, and complete destruction of CCJW and Watchtower Inc, yes ? 

Sounds drastic ? Why ? Just think about what God allowed the Romans to do to Jerusalem. The Nation of Israel were God's chosen people. They disobeyed God and paid the price. So, the GB and CCJW  and  Wt Inc. .............  

However when is this gathering of the Anointed, proven Anointed that is, taking place ? 

I'm going back to  this :   TEN MEN CLINGING TO THE SKIRT OF A SPIRITUAL JEW. ..........  WHEN ? 

https://www.revealnews.org/article/jehovahs-witnesses-use-1st-amendment-to-hide-child-sex-abuse-claims/

https://nltimes.nl/2018/12/07/three-jehovahs-witnesses-buildings-raided-sex-abuse-investigation

1 minute ago, Anna said:

No, you definitely don’t want to pretend, but have never been convinced of what you believed was the truth and later changed your perception of it, and adjusted it, in the light of more information? I think we have all done that. It seems like you naively think that truth will just pop up the first time. The Bible says we have to search for it, discover it, because it’s a hidden treasure (Prov 2:5, 6). Finding the truth isn’t a sudden revelation, it’s a journey, and on the way we may stumble over rocks, have to climb hills and descend valleys, before we even know where to dig.  But like I said before, fundamental truths (God’s name, God’s personality, God’s purpose for mankind, the way God wants us to live etc.) are there; so that people seeking those truths are able to go to the “mountain of Jehovah”  Isaiah 2:2,3.

In that case we wouldn't need an organisation and definitely would not need a Governing Body to 'teach us'  lies.  You make it sound poetic, almost romantic in you description, but it's not. 

God's name : YHWH or the Hebrew HWHY left to right.  So where is Jehovah in that ? Why not Yahweh ?  Who started the name Jehovah ? A Catholic Monk maybe ? 

And as for the way God wants us to live. The JW Org is way out of line in that case. 

I have to disagree with you completely Anna.  Zechariah 8 v 23

 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.

It is not for us to dig, we do not have the guidance of God's Holy Spirit. Only the Anointed have that guidance. The Bible was written with Holy Spirit and only Holy Spirit will decipher it. 

Luke 24 v 45  Then he (Jesus) opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 

BUT they already had those scriptures. They had read those scriptures. So why didn't they understand them ?  Obviously because they needed Holy Spirit and guidance to understand them. 

I think this proves my point. Now we should have the anointed to open up the Scriptures to us, but we do not know who the Anointed are. Why ? Because the Governing Body of JW org has silenced the true Anointed ones. 

In the Devil's 'world' surely child abuse is expected to happen.  But within an Organisation being used by God it should not happen.

So is God using any organisation at this time ? It does not look as if He is. 

Or at the very least, in an organisation being used by God, EVERY known case of Child Abuse should be directly reported to the authorities by the people that have the authority within that organisation. 

It seems God will have a bit of work to do if He wants to celan this lot up then  

Maybe He will just advise Jesus Christ to destroy the whole JW Org and Watchtower Inc. 

Then maybe God will start a new org using the name Yahweh. 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/12/police-raid-jehovahs-witness-buildings-in-sexual-abuse-inquiries/?fbclid=IwAR3Tmy1_CIqcKAcCfUs8Y8S1ZwLwS3cnJ6ji4xH0f1AsGpK_Ya2qK6DgRSo

If this news is true and if the investigation is carried out properly then it is good news, both for victims and for children.

It would be nice to see this happen Earthwide, if done properly when evidence was available to show genuine reason to do so. 

I cannot understand why HQ in USA / Bethel USA  / GB members homes, are not 'raided' for similar reasons. I presume there is some form of protection racket going on. 

But the cleansing has started and it will continue. If God wants the JW Org clean then He will have it clean, and if God wants the JW Org destroyed then He will have it destroyed. Jesus Christ will do the will of his Father. There will, one day, be a pure organisation here on this Earth through which people will serve God properly. 

Ten men clinging to the skirt of a ' spiritual Jew ', it will happen. Only then will people know truth and be able to face Armageddon. 

17 hours ago, Nicole said:

Stick to JW.ORG? 😂

I thought you were told to stick to Jehovah as a faithful lover of Jehovah

 

Ah but now a little truth is being revealed. JW's are TOLD to stick to the Org.  Believe the GB and the Elders. Ask NO questions. 

Because asking questions is seen as 'Causing a division in the congregation' and is punishable by disfellowshipping.