JOHN BUTLER

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You might be stating something so obvious that the Watchtower has explicitly used this as one reason for a recent change in doctrine (only 5 years old) that states that the GB/FDS* only counts from 1919 onward. Previously, we said it was from 33 CE onward and would thus have included the indiscretions of Russell and a few of Rutherford's. The new doctrine now leaves Russell completely out of the picture. Also, Rutherford's time of saying how the League of Nations was 'wonderful and awesome' changed in just a matter of months, just before the beginning of 1919.

*** w91 6/1 p. 13 par. 14 The Spiritual Drunkards—Who Are They? ***

• In 1919 she was among the foremost promoters of the League of Nations. While Jesus said that Christians would be no part of the world, Christendom’s leaders cultivate relationships with political leaders.

*** ip-2 chap. 13 pp. 184-185 par. 9 “Cry Out Joyfully in Unison”! ***

• When the Greater Cyrus, Jesus Christ, freed God’s covenant people from captivity to Babylon the Great in 1919, they came to a better understanding of Jehovah’s requirements. They had already cleansed themselves of many teachings of Christendom that have their roots in pre-Christian paganism, such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, and eternal torment in a fiery hell. Now they set out to rid themselves of all traces of Babylonish influence. They also came to realize the importance of maintaining strict neutrality regarding this world’s partisan affairs.

*** kj chap. 18 p. 346 par. 28 Resurrection to Unity in a “Garden of Eden” ***

• Then in the liberation year of 1919 the faithful survivors of World War I reunited with the one objective, namely, to be loyal to Jehovah’s reigning King, Jesus Christ, and to preach world wide “this good news of the kingdom.” Jehovah forgave their transgressions and cleansed them of the “dungy idols” of worldly nationalism and other religiously disgusting things.

 

 

I'm laughing, sorry. But I don't know where you get all your info'. It's great, thank you. 

So basically every time the GB discovers something they know is wrong or bad, they make up an excuse for it. 

Quote "the Watchtower has explicitly used this as one reason for a recent change in doctrine... " 

doctrine

Actually I don't think there are ANY scriptures which say God hates birthdays or birthday presents. 

There are two instances where bad things happened on people's birthdays in the Bible. 

@Space Merchant  said "It didn't stop the early Christians who wanted to ban such things"  Could we have some enlargement on this please. 

The three 'wise men' that took gifts to Jesus on his birth. Were they offering 'birth-day presents' ? 

And ( and i promise you this is not of my own originality ), an Elder once said that the gift of the Holy Spirit from God to Jesus Christ, was given to Christ on his 30th birthday. A present at Christ's baptism.. Don't shoot me down for telling the truth of what I'd heard. Unusual thought that one. 

And what is that scripture about 'one man thinking one day is different from another, whereas another man thinks all days are the same' ?

SM, I think 'the problem is  drawn' when people poke their noses in where they are not needed. God Himself, through Jesus Christ, will do the judging. Who are we to judge our brother ? Straw and rafter come to mind. 

Pagans breathe you know. Maybe we should all stop breathing. Stopping everything just because pagans do it is not the true answer is it.

Balance, mercy, love, understanding. Forgiveness, not being domineering, not pushing our own ides onto others. Qualities like those are much more important than obeying 'rules'  laid down by other humans.  

@Anna Very well explained, thank you. 

As for me knowing anything  um. There is a song i think that says something like 

'The more I learn the less i know' And my problem now is retaining anything in my head. Memory loss I presume. Plus the problem of not knowing what is truth and what is lies. 

I once, not long ago, wrote on my Facebook page, The one thing I've learnt in life is that i don't know the truth about anything. 

I wish you well with your 'possible new bible student' and with your gaining of knowledge, political or otherwise. 

39 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It's definitely a side-track. But it's an interesting one to some people. Also, I see that this topic was in a religiously neutral part of the forum, and an admin has now  moved it into the "Jehovah's Witnesses Public Club."

To me, this will make it interesting because of how politically-influenced our own prophetic explanations have been over the years. Russell himself wrote to the President of the United States to tell him that Filipinos were lazy and that we (USA) should give a large portion of the Philippines to Japan. Rutherford was constantly involved in the political trends of his day. In fact, Rutherford, wrote to Hitler to tell him that he thought that what Hitler was "preaching" in the early 1930's was kind of like a political expression of what the kingdom of God stood for, and therefore, Rutherford expressed appreciation for what Hitler was saying. This only lasted a short time because Hitler didn't buy it. In fact, Rutherford for a short time also stated that the League of Nations was like a political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth. That only lasted a few months. But he was famous for taking sides between capitalists and labor, and just like Russell, predicted that the chaos of Armageddon would be triggered by a clash between the interests of Capitalism and Labor's interest in social justice. This developed into the idea of the West (Capitalists) being the key representatives in the King of the South, and the socialist/communist powers being the key representatives of the King of the North.

Watching this idea develop between the old Daniel book (Your Will be Done on Earth) and the Babylon book and the new Ezekiel book is EXTREMELY interesting to me.

And Rutherford was supposed to a be one of the human foundation stones of the JW Org ?  Hum, well it makes me distrust the Org even more now. Yes it could be argued that he was right back at the beginning and still 'learning', but surely he would have know to 'be no part of the world'.  They broke away from what was supposed to be 'false religion', only to keep meddling in it through politics it seems. 

It actually does make me wonder what the GB / WT / Upper end of the JW Org are meddling in right now. They don't seem to learn much from past mistakes. 

Yes keep the info coming folks, it makes for better understanding for simple folk like me.  Oh what a tangled web they weave..... 

Just out of interest, what is the whole point of this topic ?  We all know that Satan is in control of the 'world' and that we  'should' be in the last days -ish.  And I thought JW's were supposed to be 'no part of this world'.  To an uneducated person like me it does seem to be a side track / smoke screen, um, just like politicians use  

One thing is quite funny @Josué2 when translated to French then back to English, the English is not  the same as the original. 

My previous comment reads differently after the double translation.. Similar with @Matthew9969 the 'cart' has now become a 'basket' .

As for @Judith Sweeney Hours as a date reference should be for internal reference surely ? Not for announcement from the platform. 

Announcing it from the platform is indeed like the religious leaders of Jesus' time that it seems had a 'trumpet announcement' when they gave a large gift. 

Quote : "Some in here...@ John Butler are just trying to malign the congregations and the good works that are being done." 

Whereas I wrote :- 

37 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The "two-balloon slander" is  misunderstanding or mistranslation of the French, which I think just means "bickering over trivialities." (As in, "Isn't all this just some bickering over trivialities?")

C'est cette médisance a deux balles ?

Literally "à deux balles" doesn't mean two balloons, balls, or even two bullets, but I think is more like "over [just] two francs."  (i.e., 'Isn't this just some cheap sniping?')

 

 

Thank you, that is indeed a help.. 

Posted 2 hours ago

25 minutes ago, Anna said:

Just being realistic 🙂

The point being you now seem to be looking into the 'world'.  We all know what the 'world' is like. 

However the JW Org is supposed to be 'pure'.  Well it pretends to be. 

The world is supposed to be wicked and complicated. The JW Org is supposed to be clean and easy to understand. 

Have a good day. 

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, it puts it all into perspective: the problems in JW Org. are nothing!

Keep putting up that smokescreen.

That's one way of avoiding thinking about all the problems within the JW Org I suppose. 

15 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

1. why the need to count the number of hours, there is no biblical mandate to do so, however there is a mandate about boasting about your works.

2. How many of those hours are just standing next to a cart and having your default witness as...'go to jw.org'.

3. How hard can it be just standing there next to a cart?

I agree with you. And, when on ministry some make a habit of walking very slowly between houses and also stopping for a chat. That's here in Devon England. They also go driving around the countryside looking for 'lost' houses to call on. 

There does not seem to be the importance given in the physical ministry, compared to that given in the Bible. But at least they are out there and trying.... Shame a lot of it is false 'news' anyway. 

The one thing i see is that those doing the ministry are showing themselves as believing and not frightened to be seen doing what they think is God's work. 

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

(And it also seems that just a few posts ago you described this forum as a “joke.” Suddenly it has become the voice of Moses descending from Mt. Sinai for you?)

Dear Tom, it takes a bit of thinking, but it is possible to know the difference between someone joking and someone being serious. 

I'm sure even you could tell the difference if you tried hard enough.

But you do seem a bit touchy about that subject of your 'gods' being removed. Tom there is only one Almighty God and only Jesus Christ. Almighty God should be given praise and thanks, and it should be offered through Jesus Christ. Beyond that, 'worshipping' anyone else is going beyond the things written and detestable to God. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Nor is it comfortable when someone is fixing to touch the pupil of your eye. One can only hope for Friends in High Places.

I don't think that criticizing the GB or the JW Org is going anywhere near God's eyes, and I think God will remove the GB one way or another. ( And it seems I'm not the only one on here that thinks so ).

10 minutes ago, Anna said:

But you can beat someones' hide! Wait a minute that's tan. Ok you can beat the living daylights out of someone

 

But we wouldn't would we ? Peace 

8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Usually Jehovah’s Witnesses can be depended upon to think that world conditions are bad.

Yes Tom, world conditions are bad. I think we will agree on that point. 

And JW's will of course judge the world against God's standards. Doing that will show just how bad the world really is. 

I actually think it's frightening, the state of this 'world'.  But unfortunately (and you will probably not agree) being inside the JW Org is not necessarily a safe place to be right now. 

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You think so, do you? That they are charismatic? You, know, they’re selling that cool bridge they once lived next to. Act now and they may give it to you cheap.

Other extreme action: die rather than accept a blood transfusion? Offset ten thousand times over via their stands on tobacco, alcohol abuse, illicit drugs, and even safety. Not to mention their stature as non-combatants. They are by far the safest religion out there. 

Extreme? Maybe. But everyone else is more so by any comparable lens.

I was relating your article to how the 'world' would  see it.  Rusia for instance. 

I was always taught to see things from both sides. Of course that is not a teaching of the GB or JW Org. 

Your article leaves itself wide open to criticism. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I shared a post a while back on how exactly that sort of thing is now happening...and who’s to blame for it.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2018/11/the-anti-cultists-are-directly-responsible.html

@TrueTomHarley  Your article made for very interesting reading. 

Quote "Time was that if you fell under the spell of a charismatic leader, withdrew from all normal societal contact, and began doing strange things, you just might be part of a cult."

charismatic leader = Governing Body

withdrew from all normal societal contact = being no part of the world

began doing strange things = We used to attend THREE religious meetings per week. Now only two. Travelling for hours across country, and sometimes to a different country, ' just for a religious event'.  

And then the stop doing normal things such as parties / drinking / dating / going to the gym, with people of the world. 

Quote :  "Today, the word is expanded to cover those thinking outside of the box that we are not supposed to think outside of. " 

Coming from a JW that is sooooo funny.  JW's are not supposed to 'think outside of the JW box'.

Quote: “You can’t claim that people are ‘terrorists’ or ‘extremists’ and then simply knock on their doors to arrest them, "

extremist

3 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Being "beat" doesn't necessarily reference a competition........it could be construed as an evidence of modesty!

Ya cannot be beat if ya didn't compete  

A slightly reggae version. 

Quote @Witness " Although, as I believe the GB will be disfellowshipped, there will be an effort made for a "restoration".  "

You know, I've said this on here before and been laughed at. It's nice to see it from someone else. 

Quote :  Those in the organization are thoroughly convinced this is apostasy against God; which in reality it is apostasy against “teachings unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses” – Bible not included in this phrase.   

Once again have i not said this before and been critisized for it ? 

Lovely to see another with the same viewpoint, thank you.  

Kinda brings tears to my eyes. Come on God, bring in that New World. 

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

True, but God's approval ... AND being able to pay $195,000 for  a coronary bypass, entirely without blood, saved my life.

If I had to do one, but not both ... which would have kept me alive?

In this case, both did, as I avoided "Manny the Used Car Bone Saw Surgeon", by insisting on NO BLOOD or blood fractions, and had to transfer to another hospital with more skilled surgeons.

Abraham had both God's approval, and was immensely wealthy.

So was King David.

Having Gods approval means you may (may!) not starve.

Having God's approval, and money means you eat three times a day ... and well!

There is no shame to be in poverty ... but it has absolutely NOTHING to recommend itself.

In my opinion surgeons / hospitals do not save lives,  they merely prolong them a bit.

Only God's love and Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ, can save lives.

I would willingly die today (painlessly of course) as I fully believe in the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Knowing I'm of the latter I hope on God's mercy and wish for life in the 'New world'.

But Sir, i love your humour and sense of reasoning. 

Ha Ha so it's not only me that takes this forum as a joke. 

As for @Anna 's comment 11 hours ago (by UK time ) Anna of course you have the right to your own opinion. And I have the right to disagree with you. So, I disagree with you. 

Sorry @Jack Ryan  We are so so far off topic here. I do apologise.   Sorry @admin It just sorta happens..

In seriousness, I hope everyone is as well as can be expected (within their personal circumstances) and hope you all have a good day.

I'm very lucky (should I use the word lucky ?) as all is well here in Devon England, well in this household anyway. And i presume things are ok with most folks that have time and comfort to sit at a computer and converse like this  .........