JOHN BUTLER

I've heard far worse from folks when I used to go on the ministry..... And in my younger days I would have used some real bad words and done some real bad deeds. So I've learnt to be tolerant of others... I was always taught that in the Org, people were at different levels of spiritual maturity, so be tolerant. So it is on here, and it's good to get a variety of comments. Sorry if you cannot handle some stuff. I presume you have had a cosseted life, no offence meant. If you've 'lived rough' in your younger times then you would have that tolerance with others as others would have had with you.

Some people are toooo easily offended. not every one is a JW you know and you would probs hear a lot worse on a film but totally ignore it. Have a good day y'all

So condemn me, but not the Elders that have ALL THE INFORMATION. Hypocrite. If you read all the comments on that topic you would know that some told me to mind my own business. Quote "But, so far, all these reasons and justifications you list seem like more of the mealy-mouthed excuses of others on non-reporting" What others ? Do tell. What info do you have ?

I've never looked into the 'tax collectors' thing. Who were they collecting the taxes for ? Was it the Romans ? Wasn't it just a job ? So why were they considered so wicked ?

@JW Insider Quote "From what I can gather here about you, I think that most of the 130 do not believe you are evil, and probably do not wish to treat you badly, but as you say, they THINK they are following the rules. Also, they will not merely treat you this way just because they feel you were concerned about the "child abuse" issue. If you have told the whole story then it is pretty clear that you are treated as someone who has formally disassociated, and we are told to treat that person the exact same way as someone who was disfellowshipped. (I think that is an abuse of power by the way on the part of the WTS policy.) It's probable that someone has added a few other "details" for the ears of the congregation, real or imagined. The more likely concern is that you have somehow become a spiritual danger because you are actively seeking out false information from apostates to spread it among the congregation in order to sow divisions and contentions. Many in the congregation must believe that your current motive is to promote such apostasy, even if you are personally still "salvagable." They are told that to treat you like this is a way to save you." Well I'm not as nice as even i would like me to be. But i did have those that I thought were friends in the congregation. Could you please 'widen out' on this thing about the 'rules' they think they are following. Where did these rules originate if not from the GB ? Only a very few knew of my concerns about the child abuse. I knew it would be unwise to tell too many as it would have led to me being disfellowshipped. However the few may by now have informed the many. Which leads me to another point. In my opinion, even now, 90% of congregants still do not know about the Child Abuse situation within the JW Org. Because the ones that do know are not allowed to talk about it. I still think it should have been announced that I disassociated myself from the Org. Then folks would have known i wasn't d/fed. I like that you think it is an abuse of power, but how do you relate that situation to the GB saying they are the Faithful and Discreet slave ? It doesn't seem very faithful or discreet to me. Am i actively seeking out false information ? And 'in order to sow divisions and contentions'? Really ? I feel I'm looking for truth. Quote :"Many in the congregation must believe that your current motive is to promote such apostasy" Thank you, because that is one of the reasons I could not report to the police the information i had been given about Child Abuse. Anna, there is your answer from JW Insider.

I don't need excuses as i have true reasons, as i mentioned but you chose to ignore. Tell me what ounce / gram of proof do i have that i could present to the police or anyone else ? Especially as I am in BAD standing with the congregation. It would just look like slander. And tell me, WHOSE duty was it to report it to the police in the FIRST PLACE ? Maybe not legal duty but moral duty. As for 'apostate forums', who really cares from that viewpoint. Anna i am my own man, I need no approval from men. However, i have a wife that i love dearly, and she still attends meetings at that Kingdom Hall. Life is hard enough for her as it is. Why should i make more problems for her ? And as I said, on here, some were telling me do and some were telling me don't. So if i had, then it would be the other side nagging me on here instead of you ... Of course, as I've mentioned earlier, if someone on here wishes to grass me up, then i might just get a police officer knocking on my door asking me questions. Then i would have to tell them wouldn't I ? So it snowballs. You now know, so is it your duty to report me for not reporting it ? Have a good day.

It would have been a no win situation on here whichever way I decided. Some said tell the police, others said mind your own business. As it was pointed out to me. i only have third hand information, which I have no proof is correct. I believe what i was told by the person that told me because I trust them to tell the truth about such serious matters. However, the police may not believe me. And if i went to the Elders of the congregation then it would give them chance to destroy the evidence they have ,and to make me look like a slanderer. Remember they have accused me of slander once before.... So I've let it go by. It does not make me as bad as what I'm accusing the Elders of. Why ? Because the Elders have FIRST HAND INFORMATION FROM BOTH SIDES. They will know the accused and the victim. They will have taken notes from both sides. I'm not in a position to talk to either side. I know the accused but not the victim. I'm shunned by all of the congregation, that's over 120 people, so I have no chance of talking to them. The Elders would use it against me if i started investigations of my own. I think some on here are brothers of 'high rank' in the JW Org. So would you take it further ? The Congregation is Honiton, Devon England. The other details can be found on the topic. So any one in good standing can follow it through if they want to. And yes i would confirm what I've written on here.

@JW Insider Quote No 1 : Of course, when it comes to those who no longer call themselves a brother (or sister) in the congregation we can treat them just as we would any other sinner or tax collector; we are in no danger of giving the impression that we support their conduct, because they are not even claiming to be related to us in the faith. Lovely. So now please explain to me in clear plain English WHY 130 people from Honiton Devon England Congregation of JW's, WILL NOT SPEAK TO ME, as i left the JW Org of my own choice, due to the amount of Child Abuse in the Org Earthwide ? Even a brother that visited me on the evening before the announcement of my being 'No longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses' and had promised to visit me again after six months, has NOT kept his promise. Making himself a liar in my opinion. I had told him and a couple of others exactly what i was intending to do, so he knew full well the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ i love your use of the Matthew 5 scripture about only loving those loving you etc.... I have this on a piece of paper hanging up close to me , amongst many other scriptures. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote No 2 : "We should be willing to speak out against the kind of videos we have seen recently which praise a person for avoiding familial contact with their own brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers" Do you really mean this ? A person that speaks out against the GB or the JW org would get disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation" (My brother is an Elder and i talked it through with him before I made my decision to leave the Org ) What about speaking out against the CHILD ABUSE SITUATION IN THE JW ORG ? Especially if it's happening in your own congregation. What are your feelings on that ? You see what I'm getting from your comment is only theory not practice. Do you put your ideas into practice ?

I am now going to tell you of what took place today. Please read it slowly and carefully. My wife and i were out delivering things to a charity warehouse and my wife suggested they we go to visit her mother who lives nearby. On arriving at my wife's mother's home, we found that she already had visitors. Hayley, one of our daughters (who has never been interested in the JW Org), and Phoebe (one of our granddaughters), but the daughter of our only daughter that remains in the JW Org. Poor little Phoebe, 7 years old, didn't know if she should speak to me or not. Obviously had been told by her mother not to talk to me, but I could tell that she actually wanted to. I spoke to her of course but she didn't know what to do... So that is No1 child that is suffering for no fault of her own. Now i proceeded to talk to my wife's mum and to explain to her that Phoebe's mum Hannah doesn't talk to me since I left the JW Org and to my surprise my wife's mum already knew the situation, and she had asked Hannah why she wouldn't talk to me, and Hannah had said' Because it is the rules, and I am not allowed to talk to him'. That was my wife's mum's words not mine. After leaving my wife's mum's home we drove to Hannah's house to deliver a 'baby chair' a sort of bouncy seat to put a baby in. Hannah was at work and her husband was looking after the other two children. My wife took the chair in to the house and I stayed in the car. Hannah's oldest daughter aged 9 said to my wife 'I want to go and see grandad, but I'm not allowed to'. My wife told me this when she came back to the car of course. So No 2 child that is suffering for no reason of her own. So there we have it. TWO children that are suffering because they want to talk to me (their grandad) and they are not allowed to, and a 29 year old baptised woman (our daughter Hannah) who is SHUNNING ME because it is the rules of the GB and Elders. Yet Hannah doesn't know why, she just follows blindly without question.... And thousands of others do the same.. There is the truth about your shunning, Tom and other blind JW's. Not a rant, just plain truth. But truth is something your JW Org and it's GB cannot handle.

malcontent /ˈmalkəntɛnt/ noun plural noun: malcontents a person who is dissatisfied and rebellious. @TrueTomHarley cannot be talking about me then. I'm a man that knows truth and is not afraid to speak or write it. I wonder if the Pharisees would have called Jesus a malcontent. Worth a thought Tom.

As I've said many times before I believe the Holy Scriptures are for the Anointed only to follow closely. The REAL Anointed ones would be spiritually mature enough to act properly and do things without malice. Of course us other sheep should serve God through Christ as best we can, but should not be expected to make such decisions as would cause harm to others. So, firstly the REAL Anointed need to be found, and that is not the GB of the JW org. Neither is it the Elders of the JW Org. This can be seen by their deeds. 'By their works you will know them' And so it shows well that those people are not Anointed by God. @Space Merchant seems to have a loving heart and he seems to find good in those that lead the JW Org. SM, I have to disagree with you. In my opinion the Elders are not qualified to do the things they do. Not spiritually qualified, not guided by God's Holy Spirit. The Elders are human, as are we all, and they act in ways that are not in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The GB and the Elders go 'beyond the things written' just to get things done. Hence when the Elders / Circuit Overseers or others disfellowship a person it may not always be for sinning against God. It may be because a person is not wanted in a congregation as the Elders do not like that person. Remember that those Elders are ONLY HUMAN. And they do not have the guidance of God's Holy Spirit that a truly Anointed person would have. It is so easy to mention Jesus Christ and the Apostles and the Disciples, and to use them as an example. BUT they were all of the Anointed Heavenly Calling. They had received God's Holy spirit. It is not possible therefore to compare the GB or the Elders to Christ and His close followers. That gap in comparison is massive. There is in fact no comparison. Those of the true Anointed whilst on this Earth, would only be human in body. In mind and heart they would be spiritual beings.

Sorry, I should have checked the date before i commented.

Poor old Tom. Writing soooo much, trying to convince himself it is right Braindead Tom, that cannot think for himself. He cannot reason on matters, so pretends that anyone disagreeing must be wrong. Blind Tom, that doesn't want to see truth. Deaf Tom, that doesn't want to hear truth. The Pharisees also pretended that they were 'doing things God's way'. But Tom cannot reason on that. Dear Tom i have personal experience of being THREATENED with being disfellowshipped. Threatened because I went to the Elders about one of the Elders behavior. I had proof that would not be listened to. An Elder that apart from the thing i reported him for, was also on a dubious dating website, using the name Yogie Bishop and giving a false address. I know because for some strange reason he invited me to join that website, and i confirmed his email address with him to be sure it was him. His excuse was that his computer was hacked and it sent out invitations to all his contacts, but he never (to me) denied being on that website. So it is one case that I know of where the elders gang up on a congregant and threaten him/me. Because the other Elders would not even listen to me on the issue. Next. Poor Tom says about keeping the Organisation clean. It is NOT CLEAN, it is disgusting. CHILD ABUSE WITHIN THE JW ORG, EARTHWIDE. The Elders remove anyone that can prove how disgusting the JW org is. If a congregant mentions the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem and gives proof of names of pedophiles, names of victims, then the congregant will be disfellowshipped for CAUSING A DIVISION WITHIN THE CONGREGATION. That way the Elders can pretend that the person was a 'sinner' and needed to be removed. Anyone wanting to remain in the JW Org knows they have to keep their mouth shut. I had many a private conversation with brothers that were dissatisfied with the way Elders dealt with matters, but those brothers were not prepared to put their 'membership' on the line by making a report / complaint. Tom you seem to be a hopeless case. You don't want to know truth. You seem quite happy to live a pretend lifestyle, probably with a cosy position within that Org. So be it, but it isn't right for you to pretend that everyone that leaves that Org, or is disfellowshipped from that Org, is a sinner. Because that makes you a liar before God and Christ. There are so many other points. Children getting baptised only because their parents want them to. OR tell them to. Yes it even gets competitive in congregations. So and so got baptised, you should get baptised. How old was JESUS ? 30 years old, when he got baptised. Not 10. And yes, 10 year olds are not emotionally mature enough to know their own minds well enough, to know if they will feel different next year. Proof of that is clear when so many youngsters get Disfellowshipped. One more point. How desperate is the Org getting if it lets 3 year olds have a report sheet to report each month ? Every person that reports Field Ministry each month is counted as a JW in the big total it would seem. That's how i've read it. When the Org was asked how they know how many 'members' the JW org has, it replied by counting the report sheets per month. So it would seem that the JW Org is losing adults in great quantity, but gaining numbers by counting very young children in it's total figures. Now if a 2 parent family has five children and all of them put in a monthly report. That would be 7 reports per month. But 3 of those children could be under ten years old. Wow, a great way to pretend that the Org still maintains it's numbers. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You are so right Tom. And the GB of that Org have proved it more than once. But from your point of view Tom, everyone that is disfellowshipped in a 'sinner', sinning against God. So, your excuses turn against you. Because you too are generalising.......... Dream on Tom. Keep pretending that you are right. Keep telling yourself that God is with the JW Org. Probably the Pharisees did the same thing, until destruction came upon Jerusalem.....

Is there a single and available sub group ? Oh dear, that sounds very sad.

Just one sweet kiss. The child knows nothing about materialism yet.

I thought this was fake news. Probably from the GB

BUT THE GB DO NOT KEEP THE JW ORG CLEAN. THEY ONLY PRETEND TO KEEP IT CLEAN. THAT IS PROVED BY THE REFUSAL TO HAND OVER THE DOCUMENTS CONCERNING THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CHILD ABUSE WITHIN THE ORG IN AMERICA ALONE. It was also proved by the UK Bethel trying to fight the investigation into the child abuse here in the UK.... And congregants are afraid of being disfellowshipped as they will lose what they think are friends, and lose contacts for business too. Remember this Kid, leaving the JW Org, does not mean leaving God. The GB and it's Org do not have the key to the gate that leads to serving God. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Quote : " It appears by this statement that a corporation like “Walmart” runs the lives of its employees". Yes Walmart does run the lives of it's employers whilst they are being paid to work at Walmart. That is quite obvious. It would be do the work or get out. And there would be rules as to manner of clothing, lunch breaks, smoke breaks, language used, and much more. Quote : "It appears the United Kingdom runs every aspect of its citizens' personal life." The government of the UK does run people's lives, via the local councils, the police force, the Laws passed in parliament, etc... Once again that is obvious. They even have spy cameras everywhere. Speed cameras on every main road. They even know when a vehicle enters London if it should not be there. They know what everyone is earning, they know how much pension everyone is getting that has retired. They have full rights, it seems, to come into your home and check on your computer, check your bank accounts, check your Paypal account, etc ... And yes i do know as it's happened to me. They even go around, what we call, car boot sales, and check registration numbers, to see which people are making a living by selling things at car boot sales. Yep, the government have control and they let us know it..... So it is with the Governing Body of JW Org. The GB make the rules. The GB rule over the congregants, via management, down to the policemen, oh sorry Elders. The Elders lord it over the congregations, because they know that the congregants, well most of them, are frightened of being disfellowshipped. The Elders do not show love to the congregation, they rule over them. Quote : "That has “nothing” what’s so ever to do with what the sheep do in its personal life" . Now that is funny. So why all the fuss about a man and a woman spending time together in a house ? And then accusing them of fornication without any witnesses. Why are congregants frightened to talk to ones that have left the Org ? Fear of getting caught. The elders seem to have spies out watching people. Unless you think the angels are reporting congregants to the Elders. You, Kid, are in denial. Or you are blind. And there are none so blind as those that do not want to see.

The 'Watchtower' is just a magazine. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is :- The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania is a non-stock, not-for-profit organization[4] headquartered in Warwick, New York. It is the main legal entity used worldwide by Jehovah's Witnesses to direct, administer and disseminate doctrines for the group and is often referred to by members of the denomination simply as "the Society". It is the parent organization of a number of Watch Tower subsidiaries, including the Watchtower Society of New York and International Bible Students Association.[5][6] The number of voting shareholders of the corporation is limited to between 300 and 500 "mature, active and faithful" male Jehovah's Witnesses.[7] About 5800 Jehovah's Witnesses provide voluntary unpaid labour, as members of a religious order, in three large Watch Tower Society facilities in New York;[8] nearly 15,000 other members of the order work at the Watch Tower Society's other facilities worldwide.[8][9][10 The Governing Body of the CCJW are the ones that GOVERN, GIVE ORDERS, MAKE RULES, CONTROL PEOPLE. I suppose that is why you always use the 'Watchtower' not the GB or JW Organisation. Using the word 'Watchtower' is a cop out, as the Watchtower is just a magazine, not a human. And your point about my local government has no meaning, because my local government will not 'disfellowship me' nor will it stop hundreds, well thousands, of people talking to me. You know why i left, it was because of the large amount of CHILD ABUSE Earthwide within the JW organisation, caused by the GB and Elders in the JW Org. No confusion there.

The Kid is like a child throwing his toys out of the pram because he cannot think of true answers to people's comments. Poor Kid, go and lay down and rest. The straight answer to the question is :- Jehovah's Witnesses are told exactly what they can and cannot do. Therefore if the GB says they cannot celebrate a holiday then that is final. However if rebel witnesses want to do something they will find a way round it. Remember you answer to God through Jesus Christ. Not to the GB of that Org.

I've no idea what ghosting is ??????????????? please. Cutting people off, UM, I'm the one that has been cut off, by over 100 people, some of whom i thought were friends, Oh dear I'm wrong again. Bonding, no thanks. I've got my wife and my son, that's enough for me. Coldheartedness, was a choice it seems you took. I didn't turn away from our daughter that got d/fed. And I would never feel anti-anyone just because they were not JW. However those 100 plus JW's that turned against me seems to prove your point. Twisting people's words YES, some peeps on here (the Kid for one) that i think are JW's always seem to twist my words. And SM is worse, he will break up one of my sentences into sections of two or three words, just to try and put me down. Of course the three words taken out of a sentence then have a different meaning as they are not in context. And SM is not a JW, so it isn't just JW's that do it. Lacking tact and making offensive comments, I think that is just me. It's called being blunt and to the point. When i lived in London for a while and life moved so fast, it became a way of life to be blunt with people. There wasn't time to 'play games' or try guessing, so bluntness was the answer. It's not just JW's. Catastrophic Thinking.... Maybe comes from a horrible upbringing. When life has always been crap, you come to expect a continuing lot of more of the same. However, don't expect those that have been loved to understand you............ Having trouble dating out in the world. I'm married to my third wife, and none of them came from within the JW org. So, you figure it out. Because I know of many that marry within the Org and still get divorced. It's a wicked world in or out of the ORG. Sexual repression ? Life is what you make it in or out of the ORG. Having multiple partners for the sake of showing off or being big headed is not so good. BUT if life throws you lemons you make lemonade... If you are not trying to serve God then you make your own rules. If one relationship goes sour then you try for another one. In my opinion NEVER judge one person against another. If a man gets let down badly by a woman then he shouldn't judge all women to be bad. As for marrying within the ORG, in my opinion it is none of their business who you date, if you are at the legal age of course. But it comes back to what people are ALLOWED to do.... Men believing they are superior. We are all individual (ask Brian). I much prefer lady doctors. I much prefer to converse with ladies than men. But I'm 'little' and not aggressive so I keep away from most men.. One reason I never go into pubs, too much agro... the Bible says the women are a large army. God finds lots of things to praise women about. Be individual, treat every person as an individual. Especially the nice ones. Ignoring social issues. I've never been into any type of politics or social issues. But then life has always been hard enough just to survive. The world is a mess, just around the corner or thousands of miles away, it's all a mess.... We live in a council house, government owned. Just down the road is special needs social housing, it's like a war zone with drugs and other issues. I just never go down there. Never enquire as to what is going on. They sometimes stand outside our house doing there drugs dealings. because the delivery vehicle will come through our road not theirs. I just don't look anymore. They don't bother me i don't bother them. Life is hard enough so why create more problems. Redirecting their reverence...... That's another one SM tries to hang on me. Just because I know of faults in the JW org, SM tells me I'm in with the activists. It is possible to have the same viewpoint but handle it differently. If a large building is on fire, lots of people will see the flames. Same as when there are many faults in the JW org, so many people see those faults. It doesn't mean we ALL go out and cause trouble, it means we all take note of those faults and handle it in different ways. I would say, never close any doors or burn any bridges. Never cast people off. Try not to judge people too seriously, including yourself. I'm loving being out the JW Org. I have freedom like I've never known. I went from horrible parents to a horrible children's home, to learning the JW Org rules. Always under pressure. always unhappy. Two horrible marriages / divorces. Now married to my third wife, and able to do just as I please. All the children grown up and I'm not babysitting grandchildren. Each person has to make their own choices where they can. I do feel sorry for anyone that isn't allowed to make their own choices.

Um I wonder why you would only pick on the SEX issue ?

You probably haven't seen a sister in trousers either as here in the UK the sisters are NOT ALLOWED to wear trousers. And yes the word is ALLOWED because the GB make the RULES and the ELDERS act like policemen enforcing the RULES. If a person breaks the RULES too often they get Disfellowshipped. Deny all you like, you are like an Egyptian having a bath, always in de-nile

Yep it t'ain't what ya does tis it ? Tis the reason why yer does it Sepptin' some folks worry cus they might be a stumblin' someone. Tis always sommit to be worryin about. Mericans tis strange folks um be, en um ? And um in lumbrin us British wiv all those 'traditions of men' from Merica. Finkin that Halloween started in Merica, and dis Black Friday stuff. What's next ?

Oh how silly you are. Anyone can grab photos off the internet and pretend that it means something. I was once fooled by what i thought was a 'live video' of a terrible massacre, only to find out later it was a re-enactment of how somebody 'thought' it happened............. I can easily relate that to you. you think you know how British people feel and act. It's not 'Christmas' that means a lot, it's the christmas break. The time off work, the rest period. time to relax and have fun with family and friends. And the people want to be left in peace, not talk religion.