JOHN BUTLER

1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

?? The info you have provided???

You feel condemned? The problem is that you are presenting the same charcteristics as those you condemn others within the congregation for having. You may not actually intend this, but you seem to be doing the same thing as those you yourself condemn . So, that would lead to the conclusion that you are self-condemning. But I don't think that is what you are aiming at, is it?

??? I thought you said:

 

I can see that the JW org has trained you well, especially in twisting things people say. Just like the Elders, you twist things to try to gain the advantage. That in itself is reason enough for me not to get involved. 

This is all good fun and passes the time, so not to be taken too seriously.

You are fully aware of the differences between my position and the position of the Elders that have the full information, so I can laugh at you for trying so hard to condemn me. Anna too knows the difference but it seems that she too needs to get some self satisfaction from her comments. So be it, as I've said i am my own man and need no approval from humans. 

And if you do not know the difference between asking for advice as apposed to seeking approval, then you are not very well educated. 

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

It seems like you are getting a taste of your own medicine

 

 

Explain in detail please. 

23 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What in the world would make you think that? With the possible exception of @Anna, who may be a high-ranking brother in drag, I think it is most unlikely that anyone is UNLESS they are malcontents working for the other side.

One can never know for sure, because the Internet is the land of the liars.

All comments that I have seen, the ones that have stayed on-topic, that is, have been focused on human matters, if not individual rights. I’ve not seen any that have addressed God’s stated insistence on preserving a clean people for his name.

It seems that there are those that are or have been in one of the bethels or another, which i would assume they see as a privilege. And some seem to have more info on specific things than others. I could be wrong of course. They could all be bluffing. 

5 minutes ago, Nicole said:

I know, I have co workers who say bad words but not to me because they respect me.

There are non JWs who also behave proffessionally and do not write bad words. 

Films in Spanish are different, translators usually don't say bad words. 

I understand this is one of the reasons why some contribuitors have left this site,  not for feeeling sooooo ofended but for not wanting to lower their standards.

 

 

I've heard far worse from folks when I used to go on the ministry..... And in my younger days I would have used some real bad words and done some real bad deeds. So I've learnt to be tolerant of others... I was always taught that in the Org, people were at different levels of spiritual maturity, so be tolerant.  So it is on here, and it's good to get a variety of comments. Sorry if you cannot handle some stuff. I presume you have had a cosseted life, no offence meant. If you've 'lived rough' in your younger times then you would have that tolerance with others as others would have had with you. 

1 hour ago, Nicole said:

And here we go again with the bad words, and the disrespect to the members of the Forum

Some people are toooo easily offended. not every one is a JW you know   and you would probs hear a lot worse on a film but totally ignore it. Have a good day y'all 

10 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

The official line on this in the UK is:   "You don’t need to be sure that a child or young person has been abused - it’s OK to report a suspicion."  https://www.gov.uk/report-child-abuse

and this reassurance if you report to Childline on 0800 1111: "The ChildLine number won’t show up on your phone bill if you call from a landline or from most mobile networks."

Your reticence to get involved is understandable, but you have revealed such a lot about the matter in this, a public forum, along with your various allegations against "elders" whom, you say, have more responsibility than you do, that it would seem that the reticence "horse" has actually bolted.

As made clear, the UK police line on this matter is "there is a moral duty on everyone of us to report to the police any crime or anything we suspect may be a crime".

Your concern regarding evidence is unfounded, as the police have a duty to investigate any report of "suspicion". It is up to them to decide if there is evidence or not to substantiate it.

It is all so easy to do, and can even be done anonymously. I don't understand your shrinking back from what is your moral responsibility, regardless of that of anyone else.  I would have thought, given the tone of your allegations against others, that you would proudly proclaim your "doing the right thing" in the matter of reporting allegations of child sexual abuse.

But, so far, all these reasons and justifications you list seem like more of the mealy-mouthed excuses of others on non-reporting  to which you attribute your withdrawal from the Witnesses. I am sure that wasn't your intention?

To stay (rather tenuously ) on topic, this kind of discussion would seem to be a pretty good reason why  those who wish to debate such matters in a congregational setting would be better shunned.

So condemn me, but not the Elders that have ALL THE INFORMATION. Hypocrite. 

If you read all the comments on that topic you would know that some told me to mind my own business. 

Quote "But, so far, all these reasons and justifications you list seem like more of the mealy-mouthed excuses of others on non-reporting"    

What others ? Do tell. What info do you have ? 

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It was Jesus, but Paul's words were very consistent with this. It is more powerful coming from Jesus, anyway, because Jesus was known (notorious) for associating with tax collectors.

I've never looked into the 'tax collectors' thing.  Who were they collecting the taxes for ? Was it the Romans ? 

Wasn't it just a job ? So why were they considered so wicked ? 

@JW Insider    Quote "From what I can gather here about you, I think that most of the 130 do not believe you are evil, and probably do not wish to treat you badly, but as you say, they THINK they are following the rules. Also, they will not merely treat you this way just because they feel you were concerned about the "child abuse" issue. If you have told the whole story then it is pretty clear that you are treated as someone who has formally disassociated, and we are told to treat that person the exact same way as someone who was disfellowshipped. (I think that is an abuse of power by the way on the part of the WTS policy.) It's probable that someone has added a few other "details" for the ears of the congregation, real or imagined. The more likely concern is that you have somehow become a spiritual danger because you are actively seeking out false information from apostates to spread it among the congregation in order to sow divisions and contentions. Many in the congregation must believe that your current motive is to promote such apostasy, even if you are personally still "salvagable." They are told that to treat you like this is a way to save you."

Well I'm not as nice as even i would like me to be. But i did have those that I thought were friends in the congregation. 

Could you please 'widen out' on this thing about the 'rules' they think they are following.  Where did these rules originate if not from the GB ?

Only a very few knew of my concerns about the child abuse. I knew it would be unwise to tell too many as it would have led to me being disfellowshipped. However the few may by now have informed the many.  Which leads me to another point. In my opinion, even now, 90% of congregants still do not know about the Child Abuse situation within the JW Org. Because the ones that do know are not allowed to talk about it. 

I still think it should have been announced that I disassociated myself from the Org. Then folks would have known i wasn't d/fed.

I like that you think it is an abuse of power, but how do you relate that situation to the GB saying they are the Faithful and Discreet slave ? It doesn't seem very faithful or discreet to me.

Am i actively seeking out false information ?  And 'in order to sow divisions and contentions'? Really ? I feel I'm looking for truth.

Quote  :"Many in the congregation must believe that your current motive is to promote such apostasy" 

Thank you, because that is one of the reasons I could not report to the police the information i had been given about Child Abuse. 

Anna, there is your answer from JW Insider. 

4 hours ago, Anna said:

OK......So what if one day it was discovered that the accused has molested again. How would you feel if you could have perhaps prevented it? They would be talking about you on apostate forums saying this John Butler knew about it and didn't say anything. How would you defend yourself? Excuses? You ARE starting to sound as bad as the elders. 

I don't need excuses as i have true reasons, as i mentioned but you chose to ignore. 

Tell me what ounce / gram of proof do i have that i could present to the police or anyone else ?  Especially as I am in BAD standing with the congregation. It would just look like slander. 

And tell me, WHOSE duty was it to report it to the police in the FIRST PLACE ?  Maybe not legal duty but moral duty. 

As for 'apostate forums', who really cares from that viewpoint. Anna i am my own man, I need no approval from men. 

However, i have a wife that i love dearly, and she still attends meetings at that Kingdom Hall. Life is hard enough for her as it is. Why should i make more problems for her ? 

And as I said, on here, some were telling me do and some were telling me don't. So if i had, then it would be the other side nagging me on here instead of you ...

Of course, as I've mentioned earlier, if someone on here wishes to grass me up, then i might just get a police officer knocking on my door asking me questions. Then i would have to tell them wouldn't I ?  

So it snowballs. You now know, so is it your duty to report me for not reporting it ?  Have a good day. 

37 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

This I wonder too, granted the culprit involved was, as stated, mental unstable hence the cause of his actions. Pedophilia desires must've triggered around the culprit's early teens, granted that is the case with most pedophiles and of if they themselves had been abused.

 

As for the cause? Still unknown by most.

It would have been a no win situation on here whichever way I decided. Some said tell the police, others said mind your own business.

As it was pointed out to me. i only have third hand information, which I have no proof is correct. I believe what i was told by the person that told me because I trust them to tell the truth about such serious matters. However, the police may not believe me. And if i went to the Elders of the congregation then it would give them chance to destroy the evidence they have ,and to make me look like a slanderer. Remember they have accused me of slander once before.... So I've let it go by. 

It does not make me as bad as what I'm accusing the Elders of. Why ? Because the Elders have FIRST HAND INFORMATION FROM BOTH SIDES. They will know the accused and the victim. They will have taken notes from both sides. 

I'm not in a position to talk to either side. I know the accused but not the victim. I'm shunned by all of the congregation, that's over 120 people, so I have no chance of talking to them. The Elders would use it against me if i started investigations of my own. 

I think some on here are brothers of 'high rank' in the JW Org. So would you take it further ? 

The Congregation is Honiton, Devon England. The other details can be found on the topic. So any one in good standing can follow it through if they want to. And yes i would confirm what I've written on here. 

@JW Insider Quote No 1 :  Of course, when it comes to those who no longer call themselves a brother (or sister) in the congregation we can treat them just as we would any other sinner or tax collector; we are in no danger of giving the impression that we support their conduct, because they are not even claiming to be related to us in the faith.  

Lovely. So now please explain to me in clear plain English WHY 130 people from Honiton Devon England Congregation of JW's, WILL NOT SPEAK TO ME, as i left the JW Org of my own choice, due to the amount of Child Abuse in the Org Earthwide ? 

Even a brother that visited me on the evening before the announcement of my being 'No longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses' and had promised to visit me again after six months, has NOT kept his promise. Making himself a liar in my opinion. I had told him and a couple of others exactly what i was intending to do, so he knew full well the situation. 

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i love your use of the Matthew 5 scripture about only loving those loving you etc.... I have this on a piece of paper hanging up close to me , amongst many other scriptures. 

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Quote No 2 :  "We should be willing to speak out against the kind of videos we have seen recently which praise a person for avoiding familial contact with their own brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers"

Do you really mean this ? A person that speaks out against the GB or the JW org would get disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation" (My brother is an Elder and i talked it through with him before I made my decision to leave the Org )

What about speaking out against the CHILD ABUSE SITUATION IN THE JW ORG ? Especially if it's happening in your own congregation.   What are your feelings on that ? 

You see what I'm getting from your comment is only theory not practice. Do you put your ideas into practice ? 

I am now going to tell you of what took place today. Please read it slowly and carefully. 

My wife and i were out delivering things to a charity warehouse and my wife suggested they we go to visit her mother who lives nearby. 

On arriving at my wife's mother's home, we found that she already had visitors. Hayley, one of our daughters (who has never been interested in the JW Org), and Phoebe (one of our granddaughters), but the daughter of our only daughter that remains in the JW Org. 

Poor little Phoebe, 7 years old, didn't know if she should speak to me or not. Obviously had been told by her mother not to talk to me, but I could tell that she actually wanted to. I spoke to her of course but she didn't know what to do... So that is No1 child that is suffering for no fault of her own.

Now i proceeded to talk to my wife's mum and to explain to her that Phoebe's mum Hannah doesn't talk to me since I left the JW Org and to my surprise my wife's mum already knew the situation, and she had asked Hannah why she wouldn't talk to me, and Hannah had said' Because it is the rules, and I am not allowed to talk to him'. That was my wife's mum's words not mine. 

After leaving my wife's mum's home we drove to Hannah's house to deliver a 'baby chair' a sort of bouncy seat to put a baby in. Hannah was at work and her husband was looking after the other two children. My wife took the chair in to the house and I stayed in the car. Hannah's oldest daughter aged 9 said to my wife 'I want to go and see grandad, but I'm not allowed to'.  My wife told me this when she came back to the car of course. So No 2 child that is suffering for no reason of her own. 

So there we have it. TWO children that are suffering because they want to talk to me (their grandad) and they are not allowed to, and a 29 year old baptised woman (our daughter Hannah)  who is SHUNNING ME because it is the rules of the GB and Elders. Yet Hannah doesn't know why, she just follows blindly without question.... And thousands of others do the same.. 

There is the truth about your shunning, Tom and other blind JW's. Not a rant, just plain truth. But truth is something your JW Org and it's GB cannot handle. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So what about it, punk? Ya feelin lucky today?

I think my next project will be to introduce @JOHN BUTLER to @Jack Ryan and duck out the back door while they get to know one another.

"Now TrueTom, knowing that the one part was made up of atheists but the other of malcontents, cried out in the WorldNewsMediaForum: “Men, brothers, I am a believer, a son of believers. Over the hope of the existence of God I am being judged.” Because he said this, a dissension arose between the malcontents and the atheists, and the assembly was split. For the atheists say that there is neither resurrection nor angel nor God, but the malcontents accept them all.  So a great uproar broke out, and some of the scribes of the party of the malcontents, though not John Butler, rose and began arguing fiercely, saying: “We find nothing wrong in this man, but if a spirit or an angel spoke to him—.” 

As I've said many times before I believe the Holy Scriptures are for the Anointed only to follow closely. The REAL Anointed ones would be spiritually mature enough to act properly and do things without malice. Of course us other sheep should serve God through Christ as best we can, but should not be expected to make such decisions as would cause harm to others.

So, firstly the REAL Anointed need to be found,  and that is not the GB of the JW org. Neither is it the Elders of the JW Org. This can be seen by their deeds. 'By their works you will know them' And so it shows well that those people are not Anointed by God. 

@Space Merchant seems to have a loving heart and he seems to find good in those that lead the JW Org. SM, I have to disagree with you. In my opinion the Elders are not qualified to do the things they do. Not spiritually qualified, not guided by God's Holy Spirit. The Elders are human, as are we all, and they act in ways that are not in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The GB and the Elders go 'beyond the things written' just to get things done. 

Hence when the Elders / Circuit Overseers or others disfellowship a person it may not always be for sinning against God. It may be because a person is not wanted in a congregation as the Elders do not like that person. Remember that those Elders are ONLY HUMAN. And they do not have the guidance of God's Holy Spirit that a truly Anointed person would have.

It is so easy to mention Jesus Christ and the Apostles and the Disciples, and to use them as an example. BUT they were all of the Anointed Heavenly Calling. They had received God's Holy spirit. 

It is not possible therefore to compare the GB or the Elders to Christ and His close followers. That gap in comparison is massive. There is in fact no comparison. 

Those of the true Anointed whilst on this Earth, would only be human in body. In mind and heart they would be spiritual beings.   

10 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

The child is no longer an infant, but a toddler most likely capable of walking and some speech, it's 2018, this was addressed 2016, approximately 804 days in total, 2 years about 6 months, 2 weeks if my estimate is correct. Giving a gift to a child isn't materialism, but what is materialism is being dependent and bombarding a child with material things, some even unnecessary things.

 

But yes, a kiss is also good for it shows affection you have for those you care for.

Sorry, I should have checked the date before i commented. 

On 11/28/2018 at 6:44 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

As the ultimate trump card of congregation discipline, to be applied when lesser measures have failed, is disfellowshipping cruel? It certainly could be, and increasingly is, argued that way. Undeniably it triggers pain to those who refuse to yield to it, “kicking against the goads,” as was said to Paul.  That said, suffice it to say that no group has been able maintain consistent moral principles through decades of time without it. I vividly recall circuit ministers of my faith saying: “Fifty years ago, the difference between Jehovah’s Witnesses and people in general was doctrinal. Conduct on moral matters, sexual or otherwise, was largely the same.” Today the chasm is huge. Can internal discipline not be a factor?

The book 'Secular Faith - How Culture Has Trumped Religion in American Politics' attempts to reassure its secular audience through examining the changing moral stands of churches on five key issues. The book points out that today's church members have more in common with atheists than they do with members of their own denominations from decades past. Essentially, the reassurance to those who would mold societal views is: 'Don't worry about it. They will come around. They always do. It may take a bit longer, but it is inevitable.' Jehovah's Witnesses have thwarted this model by not coming around. Can internal discipline not be a factor?

In the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, members voluntarily sign on to a program that reinforces goals they have chosen. Sometimes it is not enough to say that you want to diet. You must also padlock the fridge. It is not an infringement of freedom to those who have willingly signed aboard. They are always free to attempt their diet some place where they do not padlock the fridge. Experience shows, however, that not padlocking the fridge results in hefty people, for not everyone has extraordinary willpower.

If people want to padlock the fridge but they can’t do it because anti-cultists forbid that course, and they get hefty, as in the United States, for example, where the level of obesity is staggering, how is that not a violation of their individual rights? It is all a difference of view over the basic nature of people and what makes them tick. It is the individualists of today who would hold that you can’t even padlock your own fridge. No. Full freedom of choice must always be in front of each one of us, they say, notwithstanding that history demonstrates we easily toss with the waves in the absence of a firm anchor.

Disfellowshipping is unpleasant and some are so shocked to find themselves put out from their community of choice that they determine once and for all to mend whatever caused them to be ousted so as to regain entrance. But they do not all do that, and with the passing of time, these latter ones accumulate. Some continue on in life with a “been there, done that” mentality. But others expend considerable energy in settling the score with the organization that ousted them. One businessman in Canada even sued at being disfellowshipped—his customer base consisted mostly of Jehovah's Witnesses and most of them took their business elsewhere. A lower court agreed with him that those running his religion had “told” parishioners not to associate with the ex-member. But the Supreme Court decided that—did they really want to rule on biblical interpretation or on who had to hang out with whom?

The most disingenuous of disfellowshipped ones later frame their ousting as though it were over mere matters of disagreement. It was not their conduct that caused the trouble, they maintain, but it was simply disagreement over something, for example, the contention that leaving a spouse for another should trigger congregation sanctions. This was true of a prosecution witness at the Russian Supreme Court trial which resulted in banning the Jehovah's Witness faith. Responding to a request from the judge to cite instances of "control," [she] “reported that an example was her expulsion from the congregations after she ‘began her close, but not officially registered, relations with a man.’”

Other times it truly is over matters of disagreement with regard to interpretation or policy, and opposers try to frame things as did the Buffalo Springfield—that with Jehovah's Witnesses, it is "step out of line, the men come and take you away." Some of them present themselves almost as though freedom fighters. They came across something, perhaps, that they thought would entitle them to drive the bus. They left when they discovered that they would not be allowed grab the wheel. In some cases, they were caught red-handed trying to hotwire the bus. The “bus,” of course, is the Witness organization itself. In the end it is a too high opinion of oneself and one’s importance that sinks one. The worship and deeds of Jehovah’s Witnesses are magnified by their organized quality, and they either appeal to the heart or they don’t. If they don’t, then one magnifies disproportionately matters of individual rights.

The spirit of the times today far elevates rights over responsibilities. With Jehovah’s Witnesses, as with many religious people, it is the opposite. The responsibilities Christians feel is toward their spiritual kin. “Slave” for one another, the verse says, and many translations soften "slave" to "serve," but the root word at Galatians 5:13 is undeniably "slave.” Even before that, however, there is a responsibility toward God. The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses dares not meddle with the disfellowshipping policy overmuch because they know it serves to keep the congregation "clean" so as to present to God what he insists upon: "a [clean] people for his name." (Acts 15:14)

A book by evangelical author Ronald J. Sider, ‘The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience,’ highlights on the cover the question: ‘Why are Christians Living Just Like the Rest of the World?’ The author cites verse after verse of how Christian standards are “higher” than those of the greater world, and then example after example of how they are not with those claiming Christianity today. He concludes that it is largely a matter of church discipline. “Church discipline used to be a significant, accepted part of most evangelical traditions, whether Reformed, Methodist, Baptist, or Anabaptist,” he writes. “In the second half of the twentieth century, however, it has largely disappeared.” He goes on to quote Haddon Robinson on the current church climate, a climate he calls consumerism:

“Too often now when people join a church, they do so as consumers. If they like the product, they stay. If they do not, they leave. They can no more imagine a church disciplining them than they could a store that sells goods disciplining them. It is not the place of the seller to discipline the consumer. In our churches, we have a consumer mentality.”

Christians have a mandate to follow the Christ as best they can in speech and conduct. Consumerism makes that mandate effectively impossible. Yet it is the only model that today’s anti-cultists will permit. Anything veering toward discipline they paint as an intolerable affront to human rights. We must not be naïve. Theirs is no more than an attempt to stamp out biblical Christianity, veiled as though they are the very protectors of humanity.

The notion of protecting one’s values, through disciplinary action if need be, extends beyond Christianity. Was Tevye a cult member, he of the film ‘Fiddler on a Roof?’ If so, no one has breathed a word of it until very recently. The third daughter of his Russian Jewish family was shunned for marrying outside of the faith. It is an action that would not trigger shunning in the Jehovah’s Witness community, though it would gain no praises. After all, if God is truly one’s best friend, ought one really make one’s second-best friend a person who is indifferent, perhaps even opposed, to the first? Only the atheistic anti-cultists will be obtuse to the logic of this, and that only because they would consider any god-concept an unsuitable friend.

Citing Tevye to a certain ex-Witness nearly blew up in my face. At the movie’s end, he mutters to himself as his daughter and new husband depart for another continent “and let God be with you,” as though he should have been expected to shout: “May you rot in hell.” I was told that the movie teaches forgiveness, acceptance, and unconditional love rather than a stubborn cleaving to tradition and the past.” Could he really have once been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? The entire premise of the faith, and that of many Christian denominations, is that, assuming the “traditions” are biblical and not man-made, the old ideas are solid and the new ideas are tenuous, sometimes with deleterious after-effects. In fact, forgiveness, acceptance, and love are not mutually exclusive. One can forgive without accepting disapproved conduct. One can love without accepting such. “Tough love” was the phase of yesterday. Today it is “unconditional love.” Tomorrow who knows what it will be, for the scene of this world is changing?

It is not uncommon for children of Jehovah's Witnesses to be baptized at ages as young as ten. Witness detractors argue that this is far too early to make such a consequential decision. Many offer themselves as a case in point. Some of them were Witnesses and were baptized at an early age. They later changed their mind. Some of these eventually found themselves disfellowshipped and will push to their dying day that they escaped from a cult whose members were ordered to reject their own children. Some have gone on television with that charge where they persuade viewer without too much effort that only the most “brainwashed” of people would disown their own children and that whoever did the “brainwashing” must be punished.

It is an example of "truth" that is not "the whole truth and nothing but the truth." They are not children. In Witness literature the distinction is consistently made between those who are actual children and those who are young adults capable of following through on choices they have made through word or conduct. When disfellowshipping happens in the case of minors, it may result in a somewhat strained family life in which all components except the spiritual continue as before, usually with the added condition that the disfellowshipped one should still sit in on the family Bible study. When disfellowshipping happens in the case of the latter, such ones may be told that it is time to leave the nest. They are not outright abandoned, though there is variability in people and one should never say that it has not occurred. One father I know secured a job with his large employer for his departing son and let him know that he would be there if truly needed. Another, in a family business arrangement, divvied up resources so that his young adult son could have a decent start outside the congregation. This was misrepresented as though he had thrown him out with nothing but the clothes on his back, and the father for a time became a community pariah, but eventually matters came out that he had actually been quite generous, whereby much of the reputational damage was restored.

Some disfellowshipped teens have run away from home, in a biblical twist of a drama as old as time. Such a dramatized case was presented in a short video at Regional Conventions of Jehovah's Witnesses during 2017. A young woman had been disfellowshipped over sexual immorality, after having sailed past all lesser forms of discipline unmoved. When she later called the home she had left—for she did run away in this case, against her folks’ wishes—her mom did not answer the phone, an action that the young woman later describes as crucial to her turnaround and reinstatement; if mom had extended just a little bit of fellowship, she recalls that it would have been enough for her to continue in her "headstrong" course.

This will go down hard with non-Witnesses today. "You would make all this fuss over sex?" they will say, aghast. "Get them vaccinated for HPV and accept that they will do what they do." Yet, it is a matter of adhering to the standards of the oldest book of time. Family feuds are the stuff of legend, often started over matters far more petty, such as taking sides in the disputes of another family member. It is common today that old ones are dropped off in nursing homes, never to be visited again, for reasons no more substantial than that they became inconvenient. One would never say that it is routine for divisions in family to occur, but they are by no means unheard of.

The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children. But they have produced the video cited above of specific circumstances in which a parent ignores a phone call from one of them. What to make of this? Detractors will say that they are lying through their teeth with the first statement. I think not. I think they should be taken at their word—parents will reach their own decisions the on degree of contact they choose to maintain, since they can best assess extenuating circumstances. It becomes their decision—whether they find some or none at all. Specifically, what the Witness publications do is point out that there is no reason per se that normal counsel to avoid contact with those disfellowshipped is negated simply because there are family connections. That is not the same as “telling” families to break contact. It may seem like splitting hairs, but the difference is important.

That statement finds further support in the many Witnesses who have departed and subsequently report that, though they were never disfellowshipped, they still find themselves estranged from the family mix. Effectively, they are shunned without any announcement at all, evidence that a "cult" is not telling parents what to do, but it is their appreciation for Bible counsel that triggers that course. The specific mechanics of avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions may be arguable, but the general principle is not. When no verbal direction is given, Witnesses defer to the general principle, so it becomes plain that it was the general principle all along, rather than the commands of eight tyrannical men at headquarters. “What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?” says Paul, referring to two polar-opposite worlds and those who would choose between them.

It is the "choice" that defines. Some family members fail to follow through on their decided course as Jehovah's Witnesses, but they do not turn against it. Family relations may cool, but do not typically discontinue. It is only by making a choice that relations tank. Is it so hard to understand, given that spiritual things are important to Jehovah's Witnesses? It is well-understood in matters of nations, where visiting an unfriendly country brings no sanction but turning traitorous against one's own does. In politics it is understood, too. When comedian Kathy Griffin holds aloft the mock severed head of the American president, does anyone think that her Republican dad (if he is) says: "That's my lass! She speaks her mind. It won't affect Thanksgiving dinner, though?” Of course it will.

The word ‘disfellowship’ has not been heard in congregation announcements for perhaps a dozen years now—not that it has been purged from Witness vocabulary, but it is not explicitly stated. From time to time, an announcement is made that such and such "is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." It is never made of one who has merely fallen inactive, but only of those who have departed from the faith through deed or word. Though, to my knowledge, no announcement has ever been made that such is the equivalent of disfellowshipping, people mostly treat it that way. Some of whom that announcement is made are shocked into regret and turning around. Others say "You got that right" as they turn the page and go on to another chapter of life. If it is said of someone who rejects the tenets of a religion that they are therefore no longer a part of it, what are they going to say—that they are? Few would challenge the statement.

Few who would argue that youngsters have not the same maturity at age ten that they will have at twice that age. Ought they not be allowed to commit to the course they have come to believe is right, on the basis that they may later change their minds? It is not a good solution for Witnesses, though it be a great one for the anti-cultists, as it permits the latter more time to sway them. Children always will do better when permitted to identify with their choices. John Holt, an education pioneer, maintained that a prime cause of juvenile delinquency is that children are shut out of the adult world—an unanticipated effect of child labor laws enacted to protect them. For children, the solution will not be to forbid them to act upon what they have come to believe. The solution will be to cut them slack when they, through inexperience, stumble along the way. Most likely, that is being done today, for Jehovah's Witnesses, like everyone else, dearly love their children and want them to succeed.

As it turns out, I know a youngster who was disfellowshipped for a period of several months and was subsequently reinstated. He was a minor and he lived at the family home throughout the time. Months before he was disfellowshipped he had been reproved. Since I had a rapport with him, I afterwards approached to say that, while it was none of my business and I was not curious, still, if he ever wanted to discuss things, I would be available. Maybe, I allowed, he had come across some anti-Witness literature and had been intrigued. Maybe he had wanted to go to college and his parents had poured cold water on the idea. “Look, if you’ve gone gay on us—it doesn’t matter,” I said. “The point is that I have been around forever, I have seen everything, and I am not wound up too tight.” He was silent for a moment and then started telling me about this girl in another congregation. “Oh, girls are nothing but trouble!” I told him in an anticlimactic spirit. His woes were boiler-plate. Maybe he will marry the girl someday.

I had known him most of his life. As a young boy, he surfaces in my first book ‘Tom Irregardless and Me’ as Willie, the lad who protested my introducing him at each door, so I responded that he could introduce me instead. That is how it had gone all morning, save for one or two awkward situations that I had handled. The householder would look at me in expectation and I would say “Sorry, I’m too bashful. It’s his turn.” As long as he had been comfortable, it had remained his turn. Hard on the householders? Probably not. Probably it was better for them to focus on the lad—I can become wearing over time.

He also surfaces as Dietrich in the second book, ‘No Fake News but Plenty of Hogwash,’ the first one to say kind things about ‘Tom Irregardless and Me’ after reading but a single chapter. I only know two Dietrichs and the younger is named after the older, a trustworthy man whom I almost gave a heart attack when I showed up to give the first talk at the District Convention, relieving him as chairman, with only seconds to spare—there he was with songbook in hand looking anxiously through the audience. I had been in the Chairman’s Office awaiting my escort, assuming that the current year’s procedure would be the same as the prior one’s. It wasn’t. Today it would be. Everyone ‘did what was right in his own eyes’ back them. Even in small matters, there is a value in organization.

I followed the course with Willie and Dietrich that all Witnesses know and respect—I didn’t speak to him at all during his disfellowshipped time, save for only an instance or two that I could not resist. On a frigid day he dropped family members off at the door, parked, and strode toward the Kingdom Hall without a coat. Breaking all decorum, I said: “Look, I know there’s no contact and all, but did they even have to take your coat?” He liked that one. In time he was reinstated, and I later told him that there was a silver lining to be found in his experience—he would forever be an example of how discipline produces its intended effect in the Christian community.

Always there will those of the opposite persuasion: persons disfellowshipped who aren’t too happy about it. Find a few of them, work up the narrative to make it as heart wrenching as possible, and it is hard to see how it cannot be a media grand slam every time. Hide the purpose of it and present it as petty vengeance—it is a view that will sell today. Paint those doing it as deprived of humanity—it flies. Paint as dictatorial the organization holding the course—that interpretation positively soars with some. This is the age of the individual, not the group that they have individually chosen. The view that carries the day with regard to any organization is—it may as well be the year text—"power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” If there are people in charge, they must be corrupt. To an irreligious crowd, whatever the offenses for which ones were disfellowshipped is all but judgmental religious nonsense anyway. We should have moved on from it long ago. The emotional component is strong and such narratives carry the day.

To the congregation in Corinth, the apostle Paul writes: "For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ." Plainly, this concern is of no consequence to departing ones who have embraced atheism. Almost necessarily they must focus on individual rights, since what triggers a sense of responsibility among their former spiritual kin has become a non-factor to them. No, it will not be easy selling the idea of shunning to these ones.

(Original post presented here: https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2018/11/in-defence-of-shunning.html )

Poor old Tom. Writing soooo much, trying to convince himself it is right  

Braindead Tom, that cannot think for himself. He cannot reason on matters, so pretends that anyone disagreeing must be wrong. 

Blind Tom, that doesn't want to see truth.  Deaf Tom, that doesn't want to hear truth. 

The Pharisees also pretended that they were 'doing things God's way'. But Tom cannot reason on that.  

Dear Tom i have personal experience of being THREATENED with being disfellowshipped.  Threatened because I went to the Elders about one of the Elders behavior. I had proof that would not be listened to. An Elder that apart from the thing i reported him for, was also on a dubious dating website, using the name Yogie Bishop and giving a false address. I know because for some strange reason he invited me to join that website, and i confirmed his email address with him to be sure it was him. His excuse was that his computer was hacked and it sent out invitations to all his contacts, but he never (to me) denied being on that website. 

So it is one case that I know of where the elders gang up on a congregant and threaten him/me. Because the other Elders would not even listen to me on the issue.

Next. Poor Tom says about keeping the Organisation clean.  It is NOT CLEAN, it is disgusting.  CHILD ABUSE WITHIN THE JW ORG, EARTHWIDE.

The Elders remove anyone that can prove how disgusting the JW org is. If a congregant mentions the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem and gives proof of names of pedophiles, names of victims, then the congregant will be disfellowshipped for CAUSING A DIVISION WITHIN THE CONGREGATION. That way the Elders can pretend that the person was a 'sinner' and needed to be removed. 

Anyone wanting to remain in the JW Org knows they have to keep their mouth shut. I had many a private conversation with brothers that were dissatisfied with the way Elders dealt with matters, but those brothers were not prepared to put their 'membership' on the line by making a report / complaint. 

Tom you seem to be a hopeless case. You don't want to know truth. You seem quite happy to live a pretend lifestyle, probably with a cosy position within that Org. So be it, but it isn't right for you to pretend that everyone that leaves that Org, or is disfellowshipped from that Org, is a sinner.  Because that makes you a liar before God and Christ. 

There are so many other points. Children getting baptised only because their parents want them to. OR tell them to. Yes it even gets competitive in congregations. So and so got baptised, you should get baptised. How old was JESUS ? 30 years old, when he got baptised. Not 10.  And yes, 10 year olds are not emotionally mature enough to know their own minds well enough, to know if they will feel different next year. Proof of that is clear when so many youngsters get Disfellowshipped.

One more point. How desperate is the Org getting if it lets 3 year olds have a report sheet to report each month ?  

Every person that reports Field Ministry each month is counted as a JW in the big total it would seem.  That's how i've read it. When the Org was asked how they know how many 'members' the JW org has, it replied by counting the report sheets per month.  So it would seem that the JW Org is losing adults in great quantity, but gaining numbers by counting very young children in it's  total figures. 

Now if a 2 parent family has five children and all of them put in a monthly report. That would be 7 reports per month. But 3 of those children could be under ten years old. Wow, a great way to pretend that the Org still maintains it's numbers.  

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You are so right Tom. And the GB of that Org have proved it more than once. 

But from your point of view Tom, everyone that is disfellowshipped in a 'sinner', sinning against God. So, your excuses turn against you. Because you too are generalising..........

Dream on Tom. Keep pretending that you are right. Keep telling yourself that God is with the JW Org.  Probably the Pharisees did the same thing, until destruction came upon Jerusalem.....          

On 4/25/2016 at 12:40 AM, Tianna Mercier said:

I am hoping that Single and Available as a sub group doesn't mean you have to be that, to post in Socialize!!  I am traveling across the country with my husband and was hoping to find some friends from Lancaster, PA congregations that would like to go out in service and then Quilt shopping afterward. I will be in the area around Sunday 5/22 to Monday 5/23.  Let me know! Thanks!!

Tianna Mercier

gotomgo.org

facebook.com/benefitforabike

Is there a single and available sub group ? Oh dear, that sounds very sad. 

On 9/17/2016 at 9:28 PM, Nicole said:

What should I gift a new born of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Just one sweet kiss. The child knows nothing about materialism yet. 

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

Sometimes ... it helps to be too big to get on any truck to take to the slaughter house.

That is my profound thought for today ..... the rest of my posts today I will be transmitting telepathically.

If you think of something profound, and funny .... that would be me!

 

I thought this was fake news. Probably from the GB

12 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Your silliness has become complicit. God makes the rules (commands) The governing body administers that spiritual food, and adheres to those commandments that every witness should do. A contradictory in terms of your own understanding. 😉

When people become afraid, it means they have broken one of Gods commandments. Keeping the congregation clean is a structured scriptural application.

If anyone else has more colorful stories about Thanksgiving, or holiday’s in a sensible and rational manner, I will conclude this rhetoric with Screcko, and Bulter. I was looking for intellectual people that understand scripture.

The only denials come from former witnesses and those that are no longer in good standing, meaning they left the organization in their minds but are afraid to leave because of their personal confusion of not knowing to physically remove themselves when they have decided in front of God with their hearts they have already done this. 🙄

BUT THE GB DO NOT KEEP THE JW  ORG CLEAN. THEY ONLY PRETEND TO KEEP IT CLEAN. THAT IS PROVED BY THE REFUSAL TO HAND OVER THE DOCUMENTS CONCERNING THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CHILD ABUSE WITHIN THE ORG IN AMERICA ALONE. 

It was also proved by the UK Bethel trying to fight the investigation into the child abuse here in the UK....

And congregants are afraid of being disfellowshipped as they will lose what they think are friends, and lose contacts for business too.  

Remember this Kid, leaving the JW Org, does not mean leaving God.  The GB and it's Org do not have the key to the gate that leads to serving God.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 

5 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

When things are taken out of context, it would appear that someone would be incorrect. This shameful illustration proves how wrong it is to twist publications to simulate a point. Something that is written in scripture in Matthew 24:48-51 that was missed with the response given.

It appears by this statement that a corporation like “Walmart” runs the lives of its employees. It appears the United Kingdom runs every aspect of its citizens' personal life.

Therefore, this liberal take is incorrect.

When scripture reflect a shepherd should tend to its sheep, it is referring to spirituality. Maintaining the sheep fed with spiritual food. That has “nothing” what’s so ever to do with what the sheep do in its personal life. As we can see, many people are disfellowshipped.

Under the definition of Governing Body

noun

noun: governing body; plural noun: governing bodies

1. a group of people who formulate the policy and direct the affairs of an institution in partnership with the managers, especially on a voluntary or part-time basis.

"the school's governing body"

We can have a better understanding of what the function is when we combine the governing body with secular administration.

 

Quote : " It appears by this statement that a corporation like “Walmart” runs the lives of its employees".   Yes Walmart does run the lives of it's employers whilst they are being paid to work at Walmart. That is quite obvious. It would be do the work or get out. And there would be rules as to manner of clothing, lunch breaks, smoke breaks, language used, and much more. 

Quote : "It appears the United Kingdom runs every aspect of its citizens' personal life."  The government of the UK does run people's lives, via the local councils, the police force, the Laws passed in parliament,  etc... Once again that is obvious. They even have spy cameras everywhere. Speed cameras on every main road. They even know when a vehicle enters London if it should not be there.  They know what everyone is earning, they know how much pension everyone is getting that has retired. They have full rights, it seems, to come into your home and check on your computer, check your bank accounts,  check your Paypal account, etc ... And yes i do know as it's happened to me. They even go around, what we call, car boot sales, and check registration numbers, to see which people are making a living by selling things at car boot sales. Yep, the government have control and they let us know it..... 

So it is with the Governing Body of JW Org. The GB make the rules. The GB rule over the congregants, via management, down to the policemen, oh sorry Elders. The Elders lord it over the congregations, because they know that the congregants, well most of them, are frightened of being disfellowshipped. The Elders do not show love to the congregation, they rule over them. 

Quote : "That has “nothing” what’s so ever to do with what the sheep do in its personal life" . Now that is funny.  So why all the fuss about a man and a woman spending time together in a house ?  And then accusing them of fornication without any witnesses. 

Why are congregants frightened to talk to ones that have left the Org ?  Fear of getting caught. 

The elders seem to have spies out watching people. Unless you think the angels are reporting congregants to the Elders. 

You, Kid, are in denial. Or you are blind. And there are none so blind as those that do not want to see.  

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Do you do everything your local government tells you? By this response, I guess not. The Watchtower doesn’t govern anyone’s life. Just as God doesn’t govern the life of humanity to either do right or do wrong. I think, maybe there was confusion before you decided to leave.

 

The 'Watchtower' is just a magazine. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is :-

The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania is a non-stock, not-for-profit organization^[4] headquartered in Warwick, New York. It is the main legal entity used worldwide by Jehovah's Witnesses to direct, administer and disseminate doctrines for the group and is often referred to by members of the denomination simply as "the Society". It is the parent organization of a number of Watch Tower subsidiaries, including the Watchtower Society of New York and International Bible Students Association.^[5][6] The number of voting shareholders of the corporation is limited to between 300 and 500 "mature, active and faithful" male Jehovah's Witnesses.^[7] About 5800 Jehovah's Witnesses provide voluntary unpaid labour, as members of a religious order, in three large Watch Tower Society facilities in New York;^[8] nearly 15,000 other members of the order work at the Watch Tower Society's other facilities worldwide.^[8][9][10

The Governing Body of the CCJW are the ones that GOVERN, GIVE ORDERS, MAKE RULES, CONTROL PEOPLE.  

I suppose that is why you always use the 'Watchtower' not the GB or JW Organisation. Using the word 'Watchtower' is a cop out, as the Watchtower is just a magazine, not a human. 

And your point about my local government has no meaning, because my local government will not 'disfellowship me' nor will it stop hundreds, well thousands, of people talking to me. 

You know why i left, it was because of the large amount of CHILD ABUSE Earthwide within the JW organisation, caused by the GB and Elders in the JW Org. No confusion there. 

The Kid is like a child throwing his toys out of the pram because he cannot think of true answers to people's comments. 

Poor Kid, go and lay down and rest. 

The straight answer to the question is :-

Jehovah's Witnesses are told exactly what they can and cannot do. Therefore if the GB says they cannot celebrate a holiday then that is final. 

However if rebel witnesses want to do something they will find a way round it.

Remember you answer to God through Jesus Christ. Not to the GB of that Org. 

On 11/17/2018 at 8:11 PM, Jack Ryan said:

There are some things I've noticed in myself, or in others, as well as many things I've come to realize when having conversations with other ExJWs, that many of us seem to struggle with. I thought I would make a brainstorm some of the things I can think of off the top of my head, and see how many of you can relate.

1. Ghosting - We're f***ing pros at this.

2. Cutting people off and never or rarely ever thinking about them again. Sometimes cutting people off for small reasons, other times because of a disagreement that in an otherwise healthy relationship would have been talked out and moved on from.

3. Bonding - I've noticed a lot of us have issues making and maintaining strong connections with others. At first I thought this was just a product of my dysfunctional family, but I think it has more to do with the fact that we had to be ready to end relationships at the drop of a dime, so that there was always a figurative perforated line in whatever bond we had made with other JWs.

4. Coldheartedness - Again, the ghosting and cutting off and lack of bonding issues. But also the fact that we believed worldly people would be killed in Armageddon and many JWs couldn't wait for that day to arrive. Also, having to be willing to cut off your own children, siblings, parents, etc. makes for a fairly stone cold heart.

5. Circular reasoning and conversation - I had to learn to stop doing this, and I still see it in some ExJWs

6. Twisting people's words - That's one I still see at times as well.

7. Foot in mouth syndrome - Lacking tact and making offensive comments because that kind of behavior was normal around JWs, and you didn't realize how weird certain things were until you left.

8. Catastrophic Thinking - Always imagining the worst that could happen. Even when you fantasize it ends negatively because everything was always going to come to an end, and that idea seeped into every other aspect of your life.

9. Having trouble dating out in "the world" because you've always been made to view "worldly" people as inferior and in a subtle way, as dirty.

10. Sexual repression - Feeling like having multiple partners will taint you. Or just have any negative feelings towards sex at all, that are not related to experiences with sexual abuse.

11. Misogyny and believing in male superiority - Sad to say that I think this may be one of the hardest ones to shed, not just for male ExJWs, but for women as well. This is one that wouldn't necessarily feel bad to men, in fact I think many may hold on to this because it is the foundation of their confidence, and without it they may not know how to feel confident, so I can see why some haven't shed this. As for women, being raised to be meek, quiet, agreeable, and to have a poor sense of self and low self esteem, keeps a lot of women from speaking up and standing up to men as well, and it often leads to them dismissing these behaviors and enabling them.

12. Ignoring, and dismissing social issues that do not personally affect them - This one reminds me of how JWs will mail letters to Russia in their own defense, and how the Watchtower only helps their own during natural disasters. I think it is also affected by the fact that so many JWs were taught to ignore the intricacies of social issues. Yes, treat women well, but we won't go into detail as to what that really means. Don't be racist, but we won't dissect all of the little ways that people can be racist. Treat children well, but let's not discuss the fact that we expose children to emotional manipulation, physical abuse and constantly instill fear in them from the time they are born.

13. Redirecting their reverence for and blind loyalty for the GB to ExJW activists, and therefore excusing their abusive behavior as well, because they're doing so much for the cause. Sound familiar?

via Redo_Undo

I've no idea what ghosting is ??????????????? please. 

Cutting people off, UM, I'm the one that has been cut off, by over 100 people, some of whom i thought were friends, Oh dear I'm wrong again. 

Bonding, no thanks. I've got my wife and my son, that's enough for me. 

Coldheartedness, was a choice it seems you took.  I didn't turn away from our daughter that got d/fed. And I would never feel anti-anyone just because they were not JW.  However those 100 plus JW's that turned against me seems to prove your point. 

Twisting people's words YES, some peeps on here (the Kid for one) that i think are JW's always seem to twist my words. And SM is worse, he will break up one of my sentences into sections of two or three words, just to try and put me down. Of course the three words taken out of a sentence then have a different meaning as they are not in context. And SM is not a JW, so it isn't just JW's that do it. 

Lacking tact and making offensive comments, I think that is just me. It's called being blunt and to the point. When i lived in London for a while and life moved so fast, it became a way of life to be blunt with people. There wasn't time to 'play games' or try guessing, so bluntness was the answer. It's not just JW's. 

Catastrophic Thinking....  Maybe comes from a horrible upbringing.  When life has always been crap, you come to expect a continuing lot of more of the same. However, don't expect those that have been loved to understand you............

Having trouble dating out in the world. I'm married to my third wife, and none of them came from within the JW org. So, you figure it out. Because I know of many that marry within the Org and still get divorced. It's a wicked world in or out of the ORG. 

Sexual repression ?   Life is what you make it in or out of the ORG. Having multiple partners for the sake of showing off or being big headed is not so good. BUT if life throws you lemons you make lemonade... If you are not trying to serve God then you make your own rules. If one relationship goes sour then you try for another one. In my opinion NEVER judge one person against another. If a man gets let down badly by a woman then he shouldn't judge all women to be bad. As for marrying within the ORG, in my opinion it is none of their business who you date, if you are at the legal age of course. But it comes back to what people are ALLOWED to do.... 

Men believing they are superior. We are all individual (ask Brian).  I much prefer lady doctors. I much prefer to converse with ladies than men. But I'm 'little' and not aggressive so I keep away from most men.. One reason I never go into pubs, too much agro... the Bible says the women are a large army. God finds lots of things to praise women about. Be individual, treat every person as an individual. Especially the nice ones.

Ignoring social issues.  I've never been into any type of politics or social issues. But then life has always been hard enough just to survive. The world is a mess, just around the corner or thousands of miles away, it's all a mess.... We live in a council house, government owned. Just down the road is special needs social housing, it's like a war zone with drugs and other issues. I just never go down there. Never enquire as to what is going on. They sometimes stand outside our house doing there drugs dealings. because the delivery vehicle will come through our road not theirs. I just don't look anymore. They don't bother me i don't bother them. Life is hard enough so why create more problems. 

Redirecting their reverence...... That's another one SM tries to hang on me. Just because I know of faults in the JW org, SM tells me I'm in with the activists. It is possible to have the same viewpoint but handle it differently. If a large building is on fire, lots of people will see the flames. Same as when there are many faults in the JW org, so many people see those faults. It doesn't mean we ALL go out and cause trouble, it means we all take note of those faults and handle it in different ways. 

I would say, never close any doors or burn any bridges. Never cast people off. Try not to judge people too seriously, including yourself. 

I'm loving being out the JW Org. I have freedom like I've never known. I went from horrible parents to a horrible children's home, to learning the JW Org rules. Always under pressure. always unhappy.  Two horrible marriages / divorces. Now married to my third wife, and able to do just as I please. All the children grown up and I'm not babysitting grandchildren. 

Each person has to make their own choices where they can. I do feel sorry for anyone that isn't allowed to make their own choices. 

3 hours ago, Nicole said:

Wow the person who wrote this needs urgent therapy, especially for blaming on a 100% to others for his/her issues. 

The most interesting to me is this: 

Sexual repression - Feeling like having multiple partners will taint you. Or just have any negative feelings towards sex at all, that are not related to experiences with sexual abuse.

😁

Um I wonder why you would only pick on the SEX issue ?