JOHN BUTLER
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Posts posted by JOHN BUTLER
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13 hours ago, Brother Rando said:
Exposing your demonic denial of the prophecy at (Psalm 34:20) has been a pleasure. For evil is conquered with the good. The demons love making people deaf and dumb to the truth which has been rendered onto you. I was waiting for you to blaspheme against Holy Spirit to expose and count your sin publicly.
Your quote: "You may well be guided but its not by God's Holy spirit."
After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained.” (John 20:22) Therefore, your sin has been retained and there is no escape for you. Dying the second death is an everlasting destruction and one that begins with the weeping and gnashing of teeth. "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32)
come.come.
Changing the subject because you been pummeled doesn't get you any points. Consider Yourself Disfellowshipped..... you're not coming back legion.... no matter how hard you try...
You are one very sick person, you need medical help.
You don't even know what it means to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
Like I've said dream on.
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1 hour ago, Brother Rando said:
The same ones who deny the prophecy at (Psalm 34:20) have no understanding because they have already been Judged. "Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:10)
After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained.” (John 20:22)
Prophecy fulfilled.... "Hear this, you foolish and senseless people: They have eyes but cannot see; They have ears but cannot hear." (Jeremiah 5:21)
Hand Cuffs or Wrist Cuffs? Aren't the Hand Cuffs on the wrists to bind the (hands) in plural??? You stumbled yourself into Gehenna, but I won't allow you to stumble others... go on your way.
Oh so you do think you have the right to judge me. Maybe you think you are anointed too...
Dream on.
Any one of the anointed would never support the JW Org. The Child Abuse, the misuse of scriptures. The false prophecies.
The GB falsely claiming to be the Faithful and Discreet slave. the GB telling others of the anointed not to make contact with each other.
The GB telling Elders that they can tell deliberate lies and claiming it is spiritual warfare.
The GB / Elders threatening the congregants with disfellowshipping if the congregants dare question the GB's rules or decisions.
What you have in reality is a dictatorship by the GB. Only now they are being shown up for who they really are.
God, who's name may be Yahweh or Jehovah, has given Jesus Christ the authority to judge. And it looks like the judgement has started within the 'household'. I don't know if God will use the JW Org after cleansing it, or if He will wipe it out and use a different Org. But God demands that His anointed servants be perfect.
As for us earthly class, I don't think we were supposed to fully understand the scriptures. A scripture that says about' ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' and saying 'we will go with you people as we know God is with you people' (not exactly quoted but near enough to get the meaning). I know that the 'Jew' means spiritual Jew, but it would refer to the whole anointed not just your 8 men in America.
You may well be guided but its not by God's Holy spirit.
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1 minute ago, Outta Here said:
@JOHN BUTLERThe police have highlighted your moral obligation in this matter.
You might feel like letting the ones divulging the information know what you are doing. If you feel unable to talk to an elder directly, you could write to the body asking them to contact you by a certain date to discuss the matter before you let the police know. Actually, that seems a little ludicrous because if you saw a brother's car on fire outside his house, surely you would call the fire brigade and give him a knock to let him know regardless of your spiritual status? You'd hardly write him a letter...would you?
Or if it really is an issue for you, then try something from here: https://tacklechildabuse.campaign.gov.uk/?gclid=CIDj_-vF494CFR62GwodVhMGYQ
I've just re-read that 'ask the police' link, and yes i agree to a point.
However the rest of your comment i take as a joke. You pretend that the Org is run properly, justly, honestly fairly, etc....
Firstly, you seem to put the blame on me, Quote : "If you feel unable to talk to an elder directly,"... Exactly what are you implying here ?
Secondly, "you could write to the body asking them to contact you.. " You are so funny. The last time i wrote to the body of elders I actually thought that 'The Body of Elders' got to see the letter. How wrong I was. Maybe two or three Elders got to see that letter. One of which contacted me to meet the 'Elders' at the KH for discussion. When i went to the hall there were two elders there. The one Elder sat in front of me, the other sat behind me. The one in front did all the talking, and told me directly that if I didn't retract all of my accusations, then I would be disfellowshipped. So much for me trying to help keep the congregation clean. I never trusted an Elder since then. And having questioned other Elders after that 'meeting', they said they had no idea what letter I was referring to.
I know that is all totally off the topic but it gives you insight to my reasoning.
There is the other point as well. I've said i don't trust the Elders and I will be blunt and say I think they would destroy evidence that they already have. If I thought the police could go into the KH and get the written 'notes' that would have / should have been made at the time, then it would be a lot easier to report it to the police. But as it seems Elders refuse to hand over documents / notes, even if a Police officer has a warrant, then it might appear that I'm just causing trouble with no basis for doing so.
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27 minutes ago, Brother Rando said:
If you were polite you would have been given understanding and would have received forgiveness. But your sin stands and will be counted.
Look at the picture above again. Can one nail make two prints? Look again at the placement so that no bone would be broken. Do I have to show you an x-ray so you can decieve you own eyes?
Wow, now you think you have been given authority to judge me. However you do not answer my question
The GB either translated as such, or allowed to be translated as such, Nails plural and Hands plural.
If they had thought it was one nail through the wrists I'm sure they would have said so in the NWT..
It's not terribly important but just shows another instance of Luke 16 v 10
The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much.
It shows that the GB are unfaithful and therefore unrighteous.
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6 minutes ago, Anna said:
@JOHN BUTLERAnd a second thing I forgot to add: because you are worried the perpetrator might do this to other children
You are exactly right on both.
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2 minutes ago, Anna said:
I know this was for JTR, but if you don't mind me saying what your moral obligation is; report everything you know to the police and let them decide what to do with it.
I don't really understand John what the dilemma is for you, because you are the one who brought up the topic of the JW organization and their failure of not reporting to police. Now is your chance to demonstrate how it should be done, and you are not sure? I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't get it...
Anna, all i have is third hand information. And all i have is the name of the accused and his father.
I do not have the name of the young girl that was the victim, or the name of her family.
So if I report it to the police they would want the name of the person that informed me.
In the situation with the Elders, they know the victim, they know the accused, they have details of the situation. The Elders have first hand information from both the accused and the victim.....
What i have is third hand information that I assume is correct. I have no reason to disbelieve the person that told me.
They told me because i was telling them the reason that i left the JW Org. Whilst i was telling them my reason, they assumed it was partly because of this 'situation' with the details here, that I left. They wrongly presumed that this 'happening' in 'our congregation', had triggered off my leaving. But even though i was part of the congregation at the time it must have happened, i had no knowledge of it then.
It seems to me that JTR says do not go to the police, whereas you say go to the police.
I'm not trying to start a war here. If i had the name of the young girl I would indeed go to the police. Especially as it seems her father wants to keep it quiet. Why would a father of a young child that had just had such a terrible experience, and on her own bed too, want to keep it quiet ? That child may think about it every time she goes to bed.
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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
Screw Legal.
What is your MORAL obligation.
James, we are going round in circles here.
When I've brought up the idea before that the Elders should always go to the police with ALL information of accusations of child Abuse, I have been shot down in flames for it.
You are advising me I should approach people that will not even speak to me. But not to go to the police.
If I approached the Elders with the information that I've been given, knowing full well they will do nothing about it, then I'm just creating a loophole for myself. Just saying 'well I've done my bit'. It that the moral obligation I have ?
PLUS. in my honest opinion that would give the Elders the opportunity to destroy the written evidence which they would have recorded originally.
Over to you to explain in plain English what my moral obligation is...
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14 hours ago, Brother Rando said:
So why in the New World Translation did they use, or the GB allow use of, the word NAILS = PLURAL ?
Deliberately confusing people ? Or, as i believe ,they are not guided by God's Holy Spirit, and they do not have a clue.
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As i said before the GB of the JW Org do create confusion in people's hearts and minds. The Elders then add to that confusion.
Before i left the Org one of our daughters became 'no longer one of JW's'. I had no idea why. So if I hadn't talked to her I would not have found out. However I made it clear that i would never stop talking to her and I would always be there if she needed me.
Each JW is an individual and can act as they want. My brother has chosen to stay in seme-contact with me. However the over 100 JW's in my ex congregation do not talk to me. Even a brother that said he would visit me after 6 months, never has, proving himself a liar.
My feelings are now very mixed. I think God, who's name may be Yahweh or Jehovah, has given Jesus the authority to judge each of us, whether in or out of that Org. I also think there are good and bad people in or out of that Org.
We allow ourselves to cause division within our families. It doesn't have to happen.
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4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
John Butler:
I gave you excellent advice ... and you ignored it ... or at the very least did not consider and meditate on WHY it really would work.
It cost you nothing.
Had I charged you $500 for the advice, you would have probably taken it to heart, you would have ACTUALLY solved the problem, and stopped hopping around in circles with one shoe nailed to the floor and your hair on fire, trying to put it out with your tears.
If you send me a check for One Thousand Dollars, after it clears the bank, we will BOTH feel better .... you would have gotten high-priced out-of-town advice that really worked, , and I would have a thousand dollars.
Win-Win for BOTH of us.
This is simply a social engineering problem, but, to mix metaphors .... like Dandruff .... if you cured it in six days, ... you would have nothing to fiddle with and scratch until it bleeds.
JTR you talk in riddles and seem to make jokes out of serious situations.
So basically I've no idea what you are talking about.
Americans always seem to talk in monetary terms. Money is of no interest to me.
I think the scriptures say it is for a protection. For me it puts food in our stomachs and fuel in the vehicles.
Ok now,
QUOTE : BECAUSE, for you, this is ONLY hearsay, you have no responsibility whatsoever to report this to the police, but you do have a responsibility to report it to the Congregation Elders ... if, and ONLY AFTER you have had a thorough discussion with all parties involved ... but ONLY as a "heads-up", so that they do not get sucker punched.
1. As I'm no longer a JW, and when i was a JW i was threatened with being disfellowshipped for reporting something serious to the Elders, then I think they would just pretend i was trying to cause trouble.
2. I said in my original post that the Elders already know, but they 'did nothing', well nothing visible to others.
3. I do not know 'all parties involved' I know the accused and his father. I know the age of the 'victim' but not her name nor her family name.
4. I only have third hand information to go on.
5. Because i am no longer a JW, NONE OF THEM will have conversation with me. So how could i even talk to them ?
And as Anna said "because some of those people might get the mistaken impression you are doing this out of a grudge."
I'm just letting it bide. The shock is wearing off a bit now.
I will do it the American way, do some research into what my legal obligation is.
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John 20 v 25 Thomas said :-
But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
Now did Thomas know exactly how Jesus died ? Because he said Hands and Nails. Both of which are plural.
It would seem to me that the GB / Watchtower were just looking for another way to be different to Christendom. But they messed up by having the scripture as 'hands' and nails'
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15 minutes ago, Anna said:
You are welcome!
Page 24 is of that same WT and since I do not have an actual copy of it, I cannot see the illustration. WT library (where I got the quote from) does not have illustrations in it. My mum used to have all the bound volumes, I don't know if she still does, but that would be the place to look. Otherwise you have to get a hold of a pdf file of the magazine. I am assuming page 24 will have Jesus on an upright stake, with either his hands or his wrists nailed to it. Someone else might have a copy. Or if I find a reference I will let you know.
Thank you again for all your help, on this matter and on the other matter.
- BillyTheKid46 and Anna
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8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:
@JOHN BUTLER Just be sure you are certain. Plus this should be discussion with those of your circle rather than here, but it matters not now. Follow that link OH professed, for in doing so it is one of the steps in regards to Child abuse and Neglect Services.
Fora second, I thought it was a C to C case.
That being said, be careful also because misinformation begets consequence and can ruin someone's life in the process, as JTR said, if such turns out to be false, in this sense the outcome will be on your hands and those involved.
I do not have the link right now, but it should help you recognize the signs and from there execute the best course of action.
2 being close friendships and gift giving.
@Space Merchant Quote : "Plus this should be discussion with those of your circle rather than here"
I don't have a circle. Jehovah's Witnesses are 'encouraged' not to socialize with 'people in the world'. That means only mix with other JW's. Hence now that i am no longer a JW i have been completely shunned by all of them. That amounts to well over 100 people locally... 100 people that will not speak to me, not even to say hello.
So I have only my wife and son for company. My son is at work most days and my wife spends time with her mum and our daughters and grandchildren. Hence i had spent so much time working at the 'Big House', most days alone.
That is why i brought the problem here. Even before i put it up on here I had gone to my bedroom and prayed to God and cried about it. It hurts me, the problem itself, the people involved, and not knowing what to do.
- Witness and Srecko Sostar
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3 hours ago, Anna said:
I found this for you @JOHN BUTLER
Watchtower 1987/ 8/15, page: 29
"We do know that his hands or arms were not simply bound, for Thomas later said: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails.” (John 20:25) That could have meant a nail through each hand, or the plural “nails” might have reference to nail prints in ‘his hands and his feet.’ (See Luke 24:39.) We cannot know precisely where the nails pierced him, though it obviously was in the area of his hands. The Scriptural account simply does not provide exact details, nor does it need to. And if scholars who have directly examined the bones found near Jerusalem in 1968 cannot even be sure how that corpse was positioned, it certainly does not prove how Jesus was positioned.
We thus recognize that depictions of Jesus’ death in our publications, such as you see on page 24, are merely reasonable artistic renderings of the scene, not statements of anatomic absolutes. Such depictions need not reflect the changing and conflicting opinions of scholars, and the drawings definitely avoid religious symbols that stem from ancient paganism.@Anna Thank you for this information.
The scripture at John 20 v 25 only mentions Thomas speaking about hands and nails. No mention of feet.
The scripture mentioning feet in Luke 24 v 39 is Jesus' words not Thomas'.
But i like that it says "That could have meant a nail through each hand, "
I do not know what 'page 24' refers to however, as the picture i used is on page 52 of the 'Bible Teach book'.
And I like the phrase "are merely reasonable artistic renderings of the scene" .. What i mentioned before as artistic licence.
It would be nice if you could tell me exactly what 'page 24' refers to please.
Thank you again, John
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COLLATERAL DAMAGE
I have mentioned this before in relation to the Child Abuse within the JW Org.
I have said that this is now part of the American way of life. Am I right ? Please see this news topic :-
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OK, I've sort of shot myself in the foot by saying I'm now going to take this forum as a joke and have a laugh. In most ways i will continue to do so BUT.
This evening I was given some information that 1.maybe I shouldn't have been given. 2. Maybe i wish i hadn't been given.
Some of you may say I'm telling lies. Some of you may say I'm just after attention. Some may say I'm just trying to put down the JW Org.
However i have to think on something i say a lot. DUTY OF CARE. Care of everyone, in or out of that JW Org.
I have been given this information :-
Somewhere between 18 months to 2 years ago, a young man that is a member of Honiton Congregation (my ex congregation) committed a sexual offence against a young girl that would have been around 7 or 8 years old at that time..
The young man was visiting the home of this child and he went up to the girl's bedroom and asked the girl to have sex with him. I do not think that sexual intercourse took place but from the information that I've been given, he laid her on the bed and got on top of her and 'humped' her as if he were having sexual intercourse with her.
The incident was reported to the Elders and the police were not informed. I have no idea what action the Elders took but the congregation were not informed.
The young man ( who's name I have ) would have been in his very early twenties at the time, but his mental age is lower. He is a bit slow in learning things and possibly has mental disorders. That is not meant as an insult, but i do know this young man personally and he does act a bit strange sometimes and frightens people.
The young man's father was a single dad of three children ( i knew this man quite well ), but he invited a foreign lady (a sister in the JW Org) over to the UK, and they married. The marriage did not go well as the woman wanted to 'be the boss'. They split up and she went back to her country of origin. But then she came back to have a 'second try' at the marriage. I do not know the marriage situation at this time. However the whole issue would have been totally upsetting for the three children, especially for this young man that found it difficult to cope with some situations.
The person that gave me this information, in my opinion, is completely trustworthy, and once again in my opinion, would not have any reason for making up a 'story'. As I was given the young man's name, and i know the young man and his father, it all seems quite genuine to me.
Now i come back to the duty of care. For, in my opinion, it is the duty of anyone that has any information concerning child abuse to report it to the police.
This could be just a one off incident, but it could be the start of a young man becoming a pedophile. I honestly don't know where my duty is here.
The young girl that was the victim of this assault may need help getting over the situation. The information was also that the father of the victim does not want 'any trouble'. Hence he did not want the police involved. That helped the Elders to keep it secret, well almost.
Now this young man may commit sexual assault again, within the JW congregation or outside of it. And that young lady will be in fear of him and yet still have to attend that Kingdom hall where she will see him every week.
So should i report what i have been told to the police or not ? Of course I would have to tell the police it is only third hand information.
BUT, if the police could get hold of the 'records' / paperwork from the Kingdom hall regarding the incident, then it would be proved as true.
I do not expect that the Elders would willingly hand over paperwork, so I've no idea how it would work out in the end. But it's my actions that I'm concerned about here , my responsabilites. What should i do ?
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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:
Peace and Tranquility. Knowing that by my hand the next generation that is of my family and other families can teach and make good decisions and in turn next the next generation to do the same. The core of that happiness is a total trust in God and his Word, and what his Son Jesus had proclaimed about the gospel and onward. Sticking to what is true brings forth to me a positive outlook, knowing, that when the days conclude, others from my family and even friends will be brought back to share in that same happiness regarding God as I have.
Happy are those who serve the True God.
@Space Merchant By your hand ? Not by God's hand.
None of us know when this old system will end. None of us know who will survive and who will perish.
Do you not believe in One Ark = One religion, to survive Armageddon ?
Can a Unitarian and a JW both survive ? Must your family be Unitarians to survive ?
Do you know who the true Spiritual Jews are ? After all the scripture says we should hold on to the 'skirt of a Jew' and we 'should go with those people'.
Here on the forum many have different opinions as to who those Spiritual Jews really are.
I came seeking wisdom and have found none. I have only found people that love to disagree with each other.
Hence i am now turning it into a game. I visit this site for a laugh. It's impossible to know truth from lies, lies from mistakes, genuine feelings from wind up merchants. It's only good for a laugh.
I will agree with you on your last sentence. Happy are those who serve the True God. But it's knowing the 'proper way' to serve God that is confusing.
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11 hours ago, JW Insider said:
It should be noted that none of the pictures you showed, not even this one of pagan Marsyas, were from sources giving evidence that Jesus died on an upright pole. I only mention this fact because some people might see such pictures and get a sense that there is historical evidence about an upright pole as a method for the execution of Jesus. It should probably also be noted that you have found no pictures of pagan persons on crosses prior to Christ, but have found several images of pagans on poles. Yet, these ideas about pagans and idolatry still seem to be the key to your complete rejection the earliest known evidence about the shape of the stauros upon which Jesus was executed. Of course, you have the right to accept or reject whatever evidence you wish on whatever grounds you wish. I'm just looking for the logic behind it.
You have used the term crucifixion to indicate execution on a traditional cross-shaped device. If this is what you mean, then who do you think originated crucifixion on such a device before the Romans? And for how many years, decades, centuries, etc., do you think these other persons were executing people on crosses before the Romans. Also, I note that you describe it as "cruelty imposed on criminals and slaves," which is true, but which appears to be at odds with the logic in the next statement:
Crucifixion itself was cruelty imposed on criminals/slaves, but you say the original word for it was added later to symbolize an honorable and victorious death. What was that original word that was added later? How original could it have been if it was added later?
And now you say it was the first rendering of "torture stake" that wasn't available until a very long time later because it was hidden. Again, what was this first rendering and how could it have been first if it came along a very long time later after being hidden?
Because you are repeatedly using the term "we know" about all these points, I don't think you should have trouble answering any of the questions that come up about them.
And of course, you included the first definition as taken from classical Greek and "pagan" authors, but left off the second definition which aligns with the examples found in the Christian Greek Scriptures.
Here is definition 2 from STRONGS NT 4716:
2. a cross;
a. the well-known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves; cf. s RWB, under the word Kreuzigung; Merz in edition 1 ((cf. ) also Schultze in edition 2), under the word Kreuz; , iii., p. 409ff. (English translation, vi. 138; , see under the words, Cross, Crucifixion; O. Zöckler, Das Kreuz Christi (Gütersloh, 1875); English translation, Lond. 1878; Fulda, Das Kreuz u. d. Kreuzigung (Bresl. 1878); Edersheim, Jesus the Messiah, ii. 582ff). This horrible punishment the innocent Jesus also suffered: Matthew 27:32, 40, 42; Mark 15:21, 30, 32; Luke 23:26; John 19:17, 19, 25, 31; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 12:2; θάνατος σταυροῦ, Philippians 2:8; τό αἷμα τοῦ σταυροῦ, blood shed on the cross; Colossians 1:20.
b. equivalent to the crucifixion which Christ underwent: Galatians 5:11 (on which see σκάνδαλον, under the end); Ephesians 2:16; with the addition of τοῦ Χριστοῦ, 1 Corinthians 1:17; the saving power of his crucifixion, Philippians 3:18 (on which see ἐχθρός, at the end); Galatians 6:14; τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ Χριστοῦ διώκεσθαι, to encounter persecution on account of one's avowed belief in the saving efficacy of Christ's crucifixion, Galatians 6:12; ὁ λόγος ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ, the doctrine concerning the saving power of the death on the cross endured by Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:18. The judicial usage which compelled those condemned to crucifixion themselves to carry the cross to the place of punishment (, de sara numinis vindict. c. 9; Daldianus, oneir. 2, 56, cf. John 19:17), gave rise to the proverbial expression αἴρειν or λαμβάνειν or βαστάζειν τόν σταυρόν αὐτοῦ, which was usually used by those who, on behalf of God's cause, do not hesitate cheerfully and manfully to bear persecutions, troubles, distresses — thus recalling the fate of Christ and the spirit in which he encountered it (cf. Bleek, Synop. Erkl. der drei ersten Evangg. i, p. 439f): Matthew 10:38; Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Mark 10:21 (R L in brackets); Mark 15:21; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:27.I think that put the Kid in his place.
Just shows how well the JW Org had trained him, to use one meaning but deliberately leave out the second meaning. Oh dear.
Thank you for this well thought out comment.
- BillyTheKid46, Srecko Sostar and JW Insider
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12 hours ago, Outta Here said:
If that is the extent of your understanding of God's word.......then I understand your position at last.
You are so funny. That's Anna and you have made me laugh today.
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12 hours ago, Anna said:
While vacationing one year in Greece we got stuck in Athens for a couple of days waiting for our friends who were arriving by car from central Europe. In the meantime we decided to do some sightseeing and while doing our touristy thing we got joined by a jolly and friendly young Greek man. This was quite a long time ago, before the days of paranoia, plus my mum and I were rather laid back. Anyway, this young man, in his late teens or early twenties, decided he was going to show us around. I won’t go into detail, he did a great job, (although he smoked like a chimney), and like practically every Greek I have ever heard of was called Stavros. It was just now while reading this it suddenly dawned on me that the name Stavros must be connected to Stauros. And sure enough HERE it says this about the origin of the name: “Name Stavros is a rather common Greek male name and as we said comes from the Greek word “stavros” which means cross. Of course in the ancient years the word cross was referring to the item of this shape, with no political or religious meaning. The cross was used by barbarians and then by Romans who started crucifying people as a punishment for their scenes. The cross became a sacred item and symbol for Christianity when Christ was crucified on it by the Romans. The Greek Orthodox Church celebrates the name Stavros in memory of those important moments for Christianity on September 14th, the day of the Holy Cross".
I don’t know how that claim can be made “that in ancient years the word cross was referring to the item of this shape” when the etymology of that word is said to originate from ἵστημι histēmi: meaning "straighten up", "stand" . (Besides, excuse the smuttiness, I think if I was a guy I’d rather be likened to an upright pole than some other shape). On the other hand, an upright pole or stake doesn't necessarily have to exclude some other piece of wood attached to it, if the main part is the upright stake. I mean when the Bible talks about stauros and if it had a cross beam, would it then have to call it "a stauros with another piece of wood horizontally attached at the top of it" ? As everyone knows, the meanings of words change through the centuries, even just decades. eg. gay meant happy not that long ago, now it means homosexual. Hypothetically it could be difficult for someone who discovered a text 2,000 years from now, to know what the author was speaking about if he wrote about a "gay couple". Were the couple happy, or were they homosexual?.....In the same token, was it a single upright stake, or a stake with a cross beam? Sorry, I think I'm just rambling....
@Anna Anna, you've just made my day. I laughed at this comment. Thank you And i loved the smutty bit.
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@Space Merchant I think i will continue to like every comment you dislike just for the fun of it all. You seem to love linking me with others, so be it. I will join in your game and it will become fun for me. A bit of light hearted pleasure.
As for you implying something like 'Butler said that the GB of JW org are demonised' Well maybe they are .
Jesus said as recorded at John 8 v 44
You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began,c and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees but they had been God's chosen people, part of God's chosen nation. Yet he said they were from their father the Devil. So, think on it, why cannot the GB of JW Org be from 'their father the Devil' ? And if that is correct they would be demonised, or would that be Devilised.
Remember that many Jews / Israelites remained in their Jewish faith, but they were wrong not to change. So just because the JW Org has 8 million followers, does not make it right. If the amount of people in a religion made it right then the Catholic church or Islam would be more right than the JW Org
- Witness, Kosonen and Srecko Sostar
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19 minutes ago, Outta Here said:
You do not have a truth by which you are able to define what is false in this matter.
Only Thomas' words in the Bible of course. But then you seem to be doubting God's word here.
Holes in the hands where the nails passed through.
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They mess up family relationships for sure. They get people not really knowing what to do for the best.
For one instance, my brother who is an Elder. I talked through with him before I let the Org, and he agreed that i would get Disfellowshipped if I shared my views with others before i left.... Since I've left and my brother knows my reason he is not against me, and he said I have not sinned against God, so he knows no reason why he should not talk to me. However he doesn't phone me like he used to and i can't phone him.. He does occasionally send me cuttings from a newspaper that he thinks might interest me, but not spiritual things. It's like he wants to just keep in touch but at a big distance, and of course he has told me that I'm not allowed to mention anything to his wife and grown up children about it. I would have been going to visit him to help him clear out two of his large sheds, but now it will not happen as he's too worried about me telling everything I know to his family. It's his loss really but i do feel sorry for him. He's 77 years old and has prostate cancer. He wants to sort out his belongings, mainly the big sheds full of stuff, so that his wife isn't left with 'loads of junk' as she would call it. He's probably dying and he's frightened to have me visit him. Why ? All because of the GB rules.
Stake or Cross? How did Jesus die? What proof do we have?
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Posted
Br Rando has condemned me to death it seems, sending my to Gehenna.
Quote : You stumbled yourself into Gehenna, but I won't allow you to stumble others... go on your way.
Quote : I was waiting for you to blaspheme against Holy Spirit to expose and count your sin publicly.
Quote: Consider Yourself Disfellowshipped..... you're not coming back legion.... no matter how hard you try...
Is he a friend of yours ?