JOHN BUTLER

54 minutes ago, Anna said:

That wouldn't matter because people not going to meetings will become demotivated and eventually not bother with anything to do with the Witnesses, and especially giving money to them.....in my opinion anyway..

Well i know three sisters that would go every Sunday but not go in the evenings, because only one of them could drive and she will not drive in the dark. Also old brothers that can hardly see and should not be driving but it's the only way they can get to meetings. Living out 'in the wilds' there are no buses round the lanes. I have seen that there is not the love that the Org talks about. Older folks are left to look after themselves. And i do know that the JW Org, here in the UK, will not encourage/ allow the use of minibuses to collect congregants for meetings. 

20 hours ago, Anna said:

Hmmmm.....if that was the case then it would be very short sighted because if members don't attend meetings, eventually that will lead to less donations. So how about a more frugal use of Kingdom Halls?

I thought they wanted people's money online these days ? And in monthly payments through your bank. Or cell phone/mobile phone. 

And when they sell a hall it's not just the money from the sale, but also not paying out for amenities for that hall. 

And like i said they won't invest money in transport for people to get to meetings. It is expected that other people will pick up and drop off people.

Kinda funny as I've always said to my wife, they always say keep your life simple, BUT, they still expect people to own vehicles, to book into hotels for assemblies / conventions, to put money in the box, to buy new clothes just for meetings and ministry, to keep their own houses and gardens and cars in a tidy and acceptable condition, but oh yes, keep your life simple... 

18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Sometimes ... the only way to stay sane, is to quit caring so much.

About what ? 

11 hours ago, Outta Here said:

This hypothesis is based on the false premise that the use of a two beam cross has been established as a fact which, patently, it has  not.

We do not reject fact in preference to fiction, that is just the allegation of opposers. But we do reserve the right to support an alternative, where such exists, regardless of it being popularly accepted or not. When possibilities are established as facts, we will adjust our thinking. This is something which is not always the case with opposers, and is the subject of much of their crticism.

But you do seem to accept putting false information in the way of a picture in a book. A picture which goes totally against scripture 

In Reading Berkshire England, the original KH has been sold, but there were two congregations using it. Now they have to use other halls.

One of the congregations is using the Prospect Park KH which already had two congregations using it, so now has three. 

Each of the congregations from the original hall now has to travel much further to every meeting.  Some of these Bros and Sis are very old and infirm. The GB  or JW Org does not allow for purchase of minibuses to help congregants to attend meetings. 

WHERE IS THE LOVE ? WHERE IS THE CONSIDERATION ? No, it's all about the money. 

Here in Devon, we had meetings in Sidmouth years ago, but now the Sidmouth congregation has been 'merged' with Honiton congregation. Hence anyone from Sidmouth and surrounding areas has to travel much further and it obviously takes longer.  Once again many folks are old as this is a retirement area. In the winter the evening meetings get far less attendance as many older people will not drive in the dark, especially when it's raining hard. 

So once again making it more difficult for the ones they pretend to love and care for. 

It makes me happy knowing I'm now 69 years old and next year i will have served my sentence. 

70 years. So maybe I can arrange to leave in a dignified way. 

8 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Can you at least get the research right when you do this sort of stuff....please

Yes	Watchtower 7/1879 page 8
No	Watchtower Oct 15 1936 p313
Yes	Watchtower Jan 1 1939 p13.
No	Watchtower December 1 1941. p367
No	Watchtower July 15 1948 p219
No	Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338
Yes	Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479
Yes	Aid to Bible Understanding 1971 page 1519
Yes	Live Forever (old Ed.)1982  page 179 p9,10.
No	Live Forever (new Ed. 1982) chap. 21 p. 179 par. 9
No	Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31
Yes	Insight, vol. 2.,1988 page 985
No	Revelation book, 1988 page 273
No	Insight, vol. 2., page 985 revised 2017

Wow, reliable info then. We can really trust such judgement, I don't think so 

@Space Merchant Quote : I do not care about real terms? You have stated yourself such things is of an idea as if it does not exist, you show yourself to be a means to the problem to think of such in this way, which is the same case with those who profess the same attitude as you do, and thus problem ensues. People who are concern and caring take into account of any such persons with this based minded mentality, some to an extent, a mob mentality.

So, by making a problem known you say i am causing a problem ? 

If a house was on fire and i made it known, would you then say I caused the fire ? 

The JW Org is a danger to young children and i will continue to make that known. And I'm proud that I make it known too.

The GB, as you have said, are not inspired, and it would seem they are not even guided by Holy Spirit either. 

Remember, by their works you will know them. I am judging the GB by their works. 

What would be the point of that scripture if it was not for us to judge them ?  Matthew 7 v 15 through 23.

¹⁵  “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. ¹⁶  By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? ¹⁷  Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. ¹⁸  A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. ¹⁹  Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ²⁰  Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.²¹  “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.²²  Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ ²³  And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew* you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

I think Jesus made it clear enough here.  

But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.

Luke 9 v 50.

Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Luke 11 v23

@Space Merchant Regarding Islam. Are you just explaining about them or do you agree with them ?

Because Jesus made is quite clear in the above scriptures that there is no middle ground. 

As for you keep asking ME about the inspired or uninspired prophets. I had not even mentioned such. That is why I say you keep linking me to other people. Others may have said it, but i didn't.

The next claim is that JWs have a demonic influence, as brought up by Witness. so why blame me ? 

Once again you link me to someone else. 

I thought I'd just share this. Please read the whole article before judging it. 

'Punished' for being sexually abused in York County: Jehovah's Witnesses' culture of cover-up

THE CHURCH ISOLATES ITS MEMBERS, SHAMES AND SHUNS VICTIMS WHO COME FORTH AND INSTRUCTS ELDERS TO KEEP REPORTS SECRET. AND CHILDREN ARE BEING ABUSED.

https://eu.ydr.com/story/news/2018/11/13/jehovahs-witnesses-culture-shrouds-child-sexual-abuse-york-county-pennsylvania-molest-coverup/1837435002/

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So show me the evidence of making claim to inspired prophets whereas the information present outweighs the falsehood of such claims.

Most importantly, I want you so show me the claim you made against me about supporting Islam when I merely explained their view to you, not once, but several times.

Show me as to where the JWs are of demonic influence.

Also I want you to show me prove of God's approval, as you so claim before.

The lot of you didn't even know the difference of an inspired prophet and who who is not, so what more can you show me than snippets from a book whereas in the same paragraph is self-refutes the claim you have made?

If anyone knows the history. Jesus entrusted the disciples to continue on in his behalf, of which the disciples have done so, as with the churches, the early Christians and Paul. Christians can and will make mistakes but it does not defeat the purpose of the message they will bring, even some mistakes made by the actions of their own hand they make up for it for they are human, they are imperfect and they have perhaps more sense to even realize that. This was the case with Eusebius who knew the errors of some folk and corrected them, especially when he exposed those who take up things that is accursed, defending a verse of which all of us know today to which the mainstream has misinterpreted.

This is the same case with Christians today when it comes to such, for ever man and woman can stumble, but it does not stop them from standing back up.

Because when Jesus formed the church, the disciples did what they had to do to maintain peace in the church, in Paul's case, he had the ability to bind and loosen, just as the others have, to remove what is seen as bad in the church, mainly when it came to unrepentant ones, of which we see an example of such in the Bible.

As Christians we are to preach to all people, help them learn what the gospel actually is so that they too can learn, so that they too can understand why Jesus is the Head of the Church, and why God is the head of the Christ and so forth, for if people are not taught these things it will lead to outlandish practices and doctrines that has no origin within the church whatsoever.

And if one does not adhere to the Great Commission it is an utter disservice to the one who gave the command, for a Christian to not adhere such a command how can he say he follow the Christ? He or she is only kidding themselves if they are as such.

For there is a distinction between a Christian who is True and a Christian who is False and it shows who is doing things accordingly and who is not.

Insulting? How would I be insulting God when the one who agree with things God sent Satan to do his bidding? 

I am not insulting God whatsoever because I am speaking the truth in this matter. I am not someone such as yourself who lives in a box not realizing the gravity of the situation of what the world is. I do anything and everything for the truth of the Scriptures and of God and unlike you I will not stoop to the lowest level and make claim I am a Christian and yet show the true colors which will result in people to profess question.

Therefore, I want you to prove yourself claim because I can easily prove how you attempt to violate Scripture by means of thinking something of today's language reflect the language of Old. That is if you protest to go there, I am able and willing.

That being said I defended God's order, the ones you have agreed with were against it. So you tell me who is insulting God if you want to play this game of yours in this way.

Then show me as to where they claimed to be inspired prophets and infallible. If I speak the truth about the difference of a prophet inspired and not inspired, they have at it then.

Tell me exactly as to when and where they made this claim otherwise you remain in deceit of your own design and of those who profess it.

The JWs themselves is a denomination, a Christian faith, and seeing that they hold true to their Restorationist roots, they have religious leaders, their church has roles as is not to different from those who does anything and everything to be like the early church. They understand that God isn't a Triune Being, they understand the importance of the Great Commission of which the latter has shown to be against in an older debate. They understand that the world is indeed wicked in a sense to the price of which we pay by the hands of our first parents who committed sin and disobeyed God and they understand, like all persons in the world, be it religious or not, they such things cannot be resolved by humans hands, but only of God.

something of which you remain to be shrouded by that simply fact. You cannot cleanse an entire faith because you do not know who goes in and out of the faith. You cannot cleanse the world of it's imperfection because man is unable to do such a task by their own hand let alone any government on the face of this earth.

for you to remain ignorant to this face further proves you are among those who do not take into account what is taking place and perhaps, like Kairos, be easily swept by their words and be nothing more than a follower of them, one of the very reasons I hold a strong disdain for Interfaith because I did the research and I observed, I know who is the real threat here, clearly you do not.

Idea? Have you checked the news recently? Perhaps the Security Guard who was a hero but ended up being shot and the aftermath of the action? Did you really miss such things? Do you even pay attention and or vigilant of what is going on?

When it comes to an action done by someone of a race, a faith, a background and or upbringing, the actions of the sole individual makes puts people in the mentality of seeing all persons of that following the same. Examples would be Muslims, and seeing you are in the UK this should come as no surprise to you because it happens and you know it happens, granted you posted articles that even have links to such tragic stories.

If someone does something, someone of that faith,. their whole faith and it's people are demonized, blamed, insulted they are spoken of as being a terror group, this takes place in public spaces and even schools and it goes on, it goes for people of racial backgrounds as well whereas if someone of a race is killed by someone who is not of that race, a whole racial group is to blame for the actions of one person, it does not define everyone as the same for the actions of a single man. This mentality is what is poisoning our society and some of us are woke enough to see that. But clearly you thinking it is my idea further proves your ignorance.

That being said, actions committed by a killer, a pedophile, a con-man does not define everyone. Granted it is not unknown to people that religious institutions have some who commit to pedophilia, and it is no surprise it happens in the churches of the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is absurd and foolish to attest to the very idea that because of the actions of a man or a few that thousands of others should be called as such on the streets for an action they had no hand in.

Again, the case with the Church disruption done by Mr. Gardner and friends, they refereed to the JWs who had no idea what was going on, you can see the fear in their faces, and they insulted, even shamed, when they did no wrong to no one.

If you have people backing away from the actions done by such ones, that it on itself is a problem because last I checked, when I made mention of this months ago you were nowhere to be found, so do not act like you know the situation when you have no idea of what went down it was more than that and such ones made more enemies than friends/allies.

I told you before, the Jehovah's Witnesses are not immune to those who commit pedophilia and or abuse children, no one is as is with ALL institutions. That actions of such ones even among JWs who do that does not define the masses, does it define the JWs on this forum? No. Does it define those who had their churches raided? No. Does it define the Russian JWs? No. If one JW does the cirm he will do the timer, case and point, but his actions does not define all JWs around the globe, even the ones here, it the onw who is branded as a criminal does not reflect them also.

Problems like this will continue to happen because pedophilia is widespread and it has started to happen in restaurants also. To the Unitarians is his not unknown either for even Unitarians are found out to be pedophilia, but despite this, it does not define all of them, the same with Muslims and others, even Jews, of which they had a shooting take placer weeks ago for them in the US. Another situation where a little girl was not just abused but she was violently molested in a school in the US, does it define all Americans because of the actions of this man? No. It is things like that you have to realize because clearly you speak of showing care as did before but you present another face when it comes to claim. In my case, I am for education and teachings young ones to do what is right, so they themselves do not become a target and I am happy of what I accomplished in this domain because I know what the CAP is doing actually works.

That being said, Child Prevention Services even gave examples of trying to minimize the situation and or recognize them, even offering help and solutions to which you your yourself to be in opposition of (which is the same case with ARC and its solutions), as is evident at every instance of which I presented even pulled information from those sources to present to you and others. So you tell me, you think Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention is a joke or not, and how is it you are helping the cause when such things are seen as lacking on your part?

No one can stop pedophilia, we can only do our best to minimize the issue wherever it is, the same way that we cannot stop famine or war 100%, this we cannot stop completely for it is indeed earth wide and spreading and some even are fighting to defend pedophilia as if it is some special sexual orientation. The best I can do is educate our children and others adults, perhaps you yourself should be doing the same thing, keeping our youth able and ready so they can teach others. You should try it sometime.

I already explain after I did the research ever since the ARC thread.

Perhaps correct yourself before you speak. They have a use for the ruling and it is not unknown to anyone of what that is. Even NBC, the same MSM organization do not have all the facts to the ruling but the actual information of where I pulled it from speaks the truth in this matter.

Child abuse is everywhere it is not secluded to solely Jehovah's Witnesses. You are in the UK, you should be aware of grooming gangs but the fact you are unaware of such things unless I brought it up further proves your stance and your views.

The shunning is actually biblical but only cuts church ties. This has been proven true with Biblical Facts, as with regarding JWs, even former members make the same claim.

Understand as to why that command is entrusted,but you not knowing that further proves where you lack in spiritual wisdom.

Stupid idea? It is no idea, it is an actual mentality, to some extent, a mob mentality.

In the US you do realize why police officers are attack on occasion sometimes? Because people prompt the mentality to blame all police officers for the actions of a single officer on the other side of the US or elsewhere. If a police officer commits murder, even a racist one, if they rape, if they extort, if they pin the blame or planet drugs on someone, etc. This will cause people to speak and assume that because of that lone police officer, it defines all of them. Which is not something and or even a path we should follow.

Even to you guys in the UK, should someone do something it does not define you, or the rest of the people in your vicinity. Should one commit a crazy crime, a knife or acid attack which is common in the UK and such was done out of hate - does it define you? No. How will others define you? They will equate to you as the culprit, like him who did the crime, they will speak slander of you and a list of others things we you know yourself and your family knows you are not that guy, but others who are very angry with the criminal, they will spare no stone to protest that you are the villain.

This mentality is a gross one, we such a thing should not be passed on to our children.

It all goes back to Evo's question of which you said he was trying to trick you. He had a good reason saying that.

That is sheer ignorance. With what has gone down throughout the years and you attest such holds no idea when the mentality is there in this sense? Srecko may be under a rock on some things, but you show yourself to be perhaps lost in space. First, not all JWs are wicked, and even the bad ones do not define all the rest, even the ones on this forum, they do not even define Kathgar that would have ended up as a target for ISIS a while back.

And Here is where you contradict yourself. You do not assume things of people nor do you judge, and yet you are found out to say the following: [And it is because of the GB's rules and the Elders acting as puppets] Any JW here is a puppet? As far as I am concern no one is a puppet here, thus making your insult towards them as weak as your claim of being supporting Islam when I merely explained it to you.

Pedophilia had been around for a long time and it has infiltrated all intuitions, even in Bible times regarding Baal Worshipers who were cursing God's people although not mention, such ones were indeed young. They do not allow it to happen because they to do their best, you'd be surprise as to some of them who actually took the advice of Child Abuse Prevention Services and applied it by educating themselves and others, which is the case with an African JW I spoke of before.

You need to wake yourself up because this is reality, not a dream, and such of what is said is no idea when it takes place all over the place, all over the world, you have examples of that with the Jews and Samaritans even in Bible times, but not all Jews (even in Jesus' case and those connected to him) are the same, not all Samaritans are the same.

Meditate on this quote, Butler and do the research, read whatever news you adhere to, because you show yourself in critical need of it.

“Don't let the actions of a few determine the way you feel about an entire group. Remember, not all German's were Nazis.”

Erin Gruwell

That begin said, check thyself before you wreckth thyself because thing the so called idea is stupid, it shows you fail to see what is going around you in the world, let alone your own country, as of which I made mention with London already, as did others.

I leave you with this. If Child Abuse is that much of a concern for you, why not adhere to what child prevention services who are instructing people to do, by means of teaching, even PSA and videos, helping people to help prevent someone else from being a victim or the one who preys on victims; passing on teachings to someone younger to help lessen abuse? If it can help others, it can help you even teach you so that anyone who sees you as a guardian can also be helped Instead of attacking JWs on the daily simply speak them calmly and even educate them in his sense, come to them as they are a blood brother/sister of yours and teach them if need be, it does not have to be JW only, you have Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc - at least this is where you can come to common round with such folks outside debate and discussion. After all, it is far worse in the UK than it is here in the US. Do yourself a favor and do what I do, educate them

 

 

I read part of this lot but I give up on you SM.  You talk too much but say very little in real terms, You go over and over the same stuff. 

Not all Germans were Nazis. No but it took most of Germany to do what they did in WW2.  It wasn't just one or two of then was it ? 

The problems in the JW org start at the top with the GB, and then filter down via the  levels of 'authority' to the Elders. 

The Elders act on the orders of the GB. It's almost a dictatorship. But you SM have no real idea..........................

15 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, of course they have office staff that open the mail. And as any office staff they will filter letters according to relevance. If a letter is directly addressed to the GB, then I am assuming that if this letter is not something ridiculous, then it will get passed onto the relevant department. I think @JW Insider will know better than me. As far as I am aware, for example, if it is a doctrinal issue, then this would be passed onto and handled by the writing department. If it is something worth considering, then it would become part of the GB agenda for the weekly meeting. If it is something that the writing department can answer, then you would most likely get an answer from that department. 

If it were that good and that easy i would think the GB would get hundreds of letters a week  . I actually don't think a letter would get past the first 'hurdle'. Each of us to our opinions of course, but I'm going by the response I got from London Bethal, and from the lack of response I got from the letter I wrote to the BODY OF ELDERS at Honiton Congregation (my ex KH). That letter was only seen by two of the Elders it seems and one of them threatened to disfellowship me. 

@Space Merchant    Whenever i or others say anything true about the JW org and its GB then SM says we are talking 'false information and conspiracy'.

OK SM it's your choice whom you believe. But a lot of evidence has been placed here on this forum showing that the GB tell lies. You may call it making mistakes if you wish. 

Why would God and Jesus even bother to have a Faithful and Discreet Slave if Jesus was not going to pass on perfect truthful information to them ? 

Why would God even bother to have an Organisation named after Him, if He was not going to have Jesus do things properly ? 

You are insulting God Himself and Jesus Christ by agreeing with any thoughts that say the GB of the JW Org are the Faithful and Discreet Slave.  Why so ? Because the GB and the JW Org have been proved wrong so many times.  So they  cannot have God's backing or Christ's. 

As for your idea that "He does not know that the actions of alone person a killer, a pedophile, a con man, even if that person is in the church of Jehovah's Witnesses, the actions of such a man does not define all of them."

Um, How many Pedophiles ? How much Child Abuse ? How many Elders Earthwide have been convicted ? 

The Two Witness Rule of the GB carried out by the Elders. Where ? Earthwide. 

The Child Abuse where ? Earthwide.  The Shunning that affects thousands of people where ? Earthwide. 

So your stupid idea of the actions of alone person a killer, a pedophile, a con man.  Hold no water at all. Because it is hundreds if not thousands of wicked ones within the JW Org. And it is because of the GB's rules and the Elders acting as puppets, that things have been allowed to happen. 

40 minutes ago, Anna said:

It seems you were barking up the wrong tree when you approached the elders then. Who is it that would change the doctrine? The WT org, not the elders.

And you think the GB would actually receive any letters from us folks ? Surely they have 'office staff' that open all the mail ? 

And writing to the UK Bethal is of no use, as i found out already. Response was horrid, no love there. 

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

JWs of that time would been most grateful had Hitler disfellowshipped them and thereafter treated them as though they did not exist. As it was, he went well beyond “killing them spiritually.”

Yes but those ones WILL get a resurrection, and many of them didn't die spiritually did they ? They are in God's memory. 

 In this time of supposed 'end' disfellowshipped ones may not get the chance according to your JW Org and GB. 

12 minutes ago, Vic Vomidog said:

If you could keep your aviarphobic hatred to yourself I would appreciate it.

Oh dear did I ruffle your feathers. How sad for you. TRUTH HURTS get over it. 

Oh dear S. M. you do love to fill the page with words, don't you. Repeating the same old stuff over and over again.

You are a parrot. You read things and repeat it.  YOU DO NOT HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE OF IT. 

Yes the GB and JW Org are still there but they are in trouble, not from Christendom, but from ex members who have suffered and now see the truth. Ex members of JW Org and even some current members in disguise, make known the disgusting things that go on in the JW Org. The protests that you hate are by people that have been hurt by the GB rules. Some of them find it hard to hold back their pain so release it in a negative way.  That is wrong of course but it shows the pain they feel.

You seem to be 'playing it safe' by being a Unitarian and also supporting the JW's. You also seem to support other religions, even Islam. 

What makes you think that any of us do not make God's word known. Are we not even here speaking up for what is right in God's eyes ? 

BUT we do not invite people into a known danger, or a known Organisation that teaches lies and pretends to be guided by God. 

Do not be mistaken, Jehovah's Witnesses and their GB, DO NOT OWN GOD. We can serve God through Jesus Christ and we do not need that Organisation. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The picture in the book might be right. Based on the usual rules of evidence and logic, it is probably wrong (in my opinion, of course). I disagree with you that the Greek word with the basic meaning of hand cannot also include the wrist. I disagree that if the meaning of the term for "hand" can include the wrist that the translators must use the term "wrist" just because they think it's more likely to refer to the wrist portion of the hand. This is because it is not obvious that the term could ONLY have meant the wrist and not the rest of the hand. Sometimes in English we have these ambiguities between terms, and we may not understand that these ambiguities sometimes occur with words in other languages where they would not occur in English.

For example, we have the terms for fingers and thumbs. You have 5 fingers on a hand, so if we learned that someone in history had chopped off a finger, should we think of the possibility that it was the thumb? If a non-English speaker believes there was a 90% chance it was the thumb, should he translate it thumb, when finger is still accurate 100% of the time? The wrist could be included with the Greek "hand" in the same way that the thumb could be included with the English "fingers."

What is WRONG, in my opinion, is to make a statement that "Jesus died on an upright stake that did not have a crossbeam." Again, this might be true. But it is false and wrong to claim that it is true. It is false to even imply that there is no depiction of Jesus on a two-beamed cross until the 4th or 5th century, when there is evidence to the contrary.

 

Um, so where does this leave us with the GB being guided or nor guided by Holy Spirit ?

The GB put that picture in the book as a statement of fact. A full page picture. JW's are not supposed to question it at all.

BUT in their NWT they have translated it as hands=plural and nails=plural.  Now it is obvious to anyone that both things cannot be true. 

Although this is only a small matter it does relate to the scripture at Luke 16 v 10 that states 

Just a few translations for anyone that doesn't like me keep using the NWT.   

@James Thomas Rook Jr........ they announced from the platforms that it was I who had been disfellowshipped.

It was then I permanently lost all the friends I had grown up with in the "Truth", but I was working in California, and did not find out until I returned home, to Richmond, Virginia.

So would you tell me please what is your position in or out of the JW Org right now ? 

You've probs already done this but my brain just goes and all becomes so fuzzy. I'm only 69, is it dementia already ? 

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There is something about the inability to distinguish between what is important and what is not that I will never understand. It is closely associated with the inability to distinguish between the traffic cop's direction about best motoring from the orders of Hitler to gas millions.

If you are going to use the grandiose terminology that you do, use it over things deserving of it.

Dear old Tom. It is you that cannot distinguish between what is important and what is not. 

The fact that people have probably died because of lies told by your GB and the puppet Elders. 

And the fact that your GB act like Hitler giving orders which result in disfellowshipping people, which is in fact, in the eyes of the GB, killing people spiritually, which will eventually kill them physically at Armageddon. 

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. All you have to do is refrain from campaigning against them. 

You can cheerlead if you want. Many brothers do. But you certainly don't have to. 

 

What rubbish you write. Complying has nothing to do with cheerleading or campaigning against. 

Complying means obeying rules laid down by others. In this case it's the GB and the puppet Elders laying down the rules for all JW's to obey.  It's quite simple OBEY or GET DISFELLOWSHIPPED.  There are no other options in the JW Org.  

This is all heavy vibes here. As for who is anointed and who isn't, not my place to judge on that one. 

But if those of the anointed cannot agree then i have no hope on finding truth.The scripture about ten men clinging to the skirt of a 'Jew' comes to mind, but if we have no idea who the spiritual Jew is then what hope can we have ? 

Tow questions, Why would you have to go to a JW Memorial to partake ?  Why could you not find others of the Anointed and get together for your own Memorial ?  

13 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Before I was baptized I thought that you can always question every JW doctrine and that the Watchtower will always have scripturaly based answers for their doctrines. So I felt safe to be baptized. But I did not know that after you are baptized you have no more right to question the truthfulness of any doctine. And if you don't understand their explanation you have to comply anyway. 

If I had known that the WT-organization works like that, I doubt I had been baptized. 

To the contrary I heard the circuit overseer explain how honest and sincere the WT organization is. He claimed in a speech that if a person finds a fault in WT doctine and can show it from the Bible, then absolutely the WT organization will change the doctrine. 

It was with this mind I was baptized. But it became evident that that is not how the WT org works. When I had found scriptural evidence against some WT doctrines I wanted to show my elders. They came to my place, but they refused to look at my findings. They refused to look at the scriptures I wanted to show them. They were not going to examine the scriptures. I was amazed, what was going on? Now I understand that elders act according to WT procedures. They don't think about what is right or true. The only thing that matters to them is to obey the GB. The Bible and the truth comes always on the second place. 

That is the moment when the truth has ceased to be the truth. 

Actually the elders even openly at the meerings said that the unity is more important than the truth. They justify that with saying that Jehovah will anyway later correct everything.

But where will the elders and GB be when Jehovah corrects what it wrong? They might as well find themselves in trouble. 

As Bible-history shows, those who opposed truth tellers in the past got in trouble.

Your comment is perfect, and so true.

When i have said these things I have been greatly criticized. You are almost saying as i have said. The Elders are only puppets for the GB.  The Elders do not want to think for themselves. They only want to keep their positions of power in the Organisation. 

And the GB and it's puppet Elders are only interested in making the JW Organisation 'look good' from the outside.

How right Jesus was when he explained to clean the inside of the bowl or dish so that the outside would also be clean. 

As a note, my wife is not baptised because she doesn't want to be controlled by the Elders or the GB.  She realised a long time ago the same things you are saying. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

True. And neither am I aware of any successful challenge to the view depicted in the earliest known writings, descriptions and depictions of the stauros.

The earliest known view of Jesus' execution refers to the Tau shape. That's from the first or second century "Letter of Barnabas." All other subsequent references to the shape of Jesus' execution stauros also describe a T shape and/or a T shape with a lower crossbar.

All the Biblical references (which do not describe the shape) make perfect sense if it is depicting a T shape or a T shape with a lowered crossbeam. I am referring not only to the use of term "nails in his hands" but also the fact that the 'King of the Jews' sign was depicted as above his head, not above (or below) his hands. Also the fact that the description of the execution procession closely matches the Roman punitive use of the patibulum which invariably refers to the arms being stretched out to each side, perpendicular to the body.

So far, no one has successfully challenged this earliest known view. Also, it appears there are not even any hints of anyone ever attempting to challenge that view from any of the earliest centuries C.E. up until very recently. And we would have to say that the Watchtower has also been unable to successfully challenge that view due to apparently depending on statements which can be shown to be false, in order to reach that view. A successful challenge cannot be dependent on false statements.

My head goes fuzzy after reading so many comments. So please answer in a very simple way

1. Are you agreeing with me that the picture in that book is wrong ?  

2. And that the GB has no real honest basis to give them reason to produce such a picture ?

Remembering that the GB expect everyone of the JW's to believe everything they say or put in print. 

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

That is what I was trying to explain to you in an earlier post @JOHN BUTLER, so similarly in Greek, the word hand can include the wrist.

I think we've been over this point already.  So the GB could have used the word wrist in the NWT if they were sure that it was the wrist not the hands. But no, they used 'hands' plural and nails plural.     You are still a mile away from the truth of it all. They still contradicted themselves. 

YOUR GB ARE NOT THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASS, AND THEY KEEP MAKING IT SO SO SO CLEAR. 

Nearly 10 pm here in Devon England. Goodnight to you all.