JOHN BUTLER

12 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

This sounds like a good principle, but really the determination of a crime being acually committed is not best served by single individuals is it?

Once an allegation has been made, the matter should be taken out of individual hands. This is where the system appears to fall down in that there is insufficient clarity about what should be done next. Wouldn't it be great if the simple step was to inform the appropriate secular authorities who theoretically (Rom.13:1-4) should have the necessary resources to investigate and handle the matter. I mean, I don't inform the body of elders if my neighbour's house is on fire, or if a car hits him in front of me, even if he is a Jehovah's witness, do I?  How much more so if I suspect a crime has been/is being committed?

Unfortunately, life is not that simple. False allegations, historical allegations, media brouhaha, guilty until proven innocent, guilty even if proven innocent, weaponising of allegations*, incompetence in secular handling, etc.etc. And then there is the protection of the victim both from further abuse, and the consequences of revealing it's occurrence, (did somebody mention that?).

The only charity with statutory powers in connection with child protection in the UK is the NSPCC and it may well be a comment on the difficulties and inadequacies in the secular response to this crime in the UK in that their encouragement is to contact them, not secular authorities, with concerns regarding possible abuse. Even then they say that, as a part of their response, they share this information with children’s services as well as the police, if necessary. How is that necessity determined and why is there a need to do so?

*On the point about the weaponising of this issue by those who attack Jehovah's witnesses, TTH highlights this with an interesting comment::

 

Now what if we look at your comment from a different angle. 

This idea of false accusation for instance. What if we said that ALL accusations would be reported directly to the Police and secular authorities. Wouldn't that make accusers think twice about making false accusations ?  Because making a false accusation of such seriousness would result in charges being brought against the accuser would it not ? 

And your point about  'incompetence in secular handling' is almost funny. Haven't the JW Org used the excuse of the 'incompetence of Elders not trained for such work ? 

As for here in the UK, I think we are waiting for a new enquiry by the IICSA. Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. Hopefully very soon. 

Wow, True Tom and Billy doing their bit to pretend the JW Org / Watchtower are so so good and pure. Well done boys, good acting. 

But it still comes back to Collateral damage. So i can only presume it has never happened to you and you have no idea what sexual abuse, or emotional abuse, or physical abuse is like.  

It seems the Australian JW org had records going back 50 years. And the GB / legal departments in USA have records going back at least 20 years containing thousands of accusations. Did they do it for 'kicks' ?  Keeping these records / documents /files, to read and get high on ?  Strange that the GB should keep so much info' but keep it all to themselves. 

Of course Victims are angry. I'm still angry at what happened to me, though it wasn't in the Org. It has ruined my life, so i can understand it has ruined the lives of thousands of others. Not only does it ruin the lives of Victims, it ruins the lives of families. And not only that but in the JW Org it has killed thousands spiritually, hence i say 'Offering Children to Molech'. 

But to your guys it's just collateral damage. Why should a few thousand suffers matter to you when your 8.5 million JW Org is still functioning ok. 

' yielding to the instinct to not air dirty laundry'.  Is that what they are Tom, the Victims. Just 'dirty laundry'.  And you call yourself a Christian 

Wow I'm glad I missed that lot of discussion.  Hope you all sorted it out now. Where as I don't think Jesus even mentioned the blood issue. 

 

And not that anyone can be bothered to go back and see what i wrote but this is the scripture i was relating it to. James 2 v 16.

yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 

Keep throwing it at me guys, i can take all of it and more.

Jesus and his apostles suffered for speaking the truth, why should i expect to be treated any different. 

6 minutes ago, ericsmith95 said:

ARE YOU ALL FAITHFULL LOVERS OF JEHOVAH ??????

ALL I CAN SEE HERE IS THE BEGINNINGS OF APOSTASY  , SHAME ON YOU ALL,  NOW I KNOW WHY WERE TOLD TO STICK TO  JW.ORG, I'M OUT OF HERE ,

Now that question isn't as easy to answer as it might seem.

I am a lover of God and Jesus Christ, but not a lover of the GB of JW org. 

And it would be nice to know your meaning of Apostasy ? 

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία apostasia, "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion contrary to one's previous beliefs.

Yes leaving a religion, not leaving God. 

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Others will say: ‘It’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.’

Aren't the ingredients already mixed in this case (blood) and the opposite is done, splitting the 'ingredients' apart. 

If blood is sacred or of high importance to God then surely it should not be messed with or split up in such a way ?

Just a thought, though in practice i still don't think God meant it that way.   

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think it is just that they developed or came across something that they thought entitled them to drive the bus. They left when they discovered that they would not be allowed to. In some cases they were caught red-handed trying to hotwire the bus.

In the end it is a too high opinion of oneself and one’s wisdom that sinks one. The worship and deeds of Jehovah’s Witnesses, magnified by their organized quality, either appeal to the heart or they don’t.

I would give you the same Luke 17 v 1 & 2 scripture too, but it would be of no use. There are none so blind as those that deliberately will not see. And that seems to apply to you and Anna and Gone Away. 

I am finding though that visiting this 'site' helps to give me perspective. And although it may not seem so, i do consider both sides of the 'coin'.  Yes people can get easily upset by trivial matters i agree, and yes we should all try to overlook 'faults' in others and hope that they would overlook our faults too. 

But to say that they leave because they can't get control seems a bit far fetched. Unless of course a person enters the Org with such intentions, but I wouldn't think many do that.  I do find that in congregations I've known, that individual Elders do tend to take control of the congregation, and the other Elders seem to be frightened of them. You might find that unbelievable. 

For instance when I reported a situation and was then threatened with being disfellowshipped for slander. The one Elder that threatened to disfellowship me if i didn't withdraw all of my accusations, seemed to back off when i said, 'If you think you have the authority to disfellowship me then go ahead and do it '. He didn't of course as he didn't have that authority, but the threat was only from him, not the other Elders.  That Elder now has his father with him as another Elder in Honiton congregation, here in Devon. I dread to think how it is being run now. The two of them domineering the congregation. 

The JW Org is like a beautiful forest from a distance, but just do not get close and look at those trees or you will be so disappointed. 

10 hours ago, Anna said:

The problem with that is that sometimes in someone's eyes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. And what someone calls being stumbled, someone else calls being strengthened, by exactly the same thing. I suppose it all boils down to attitude and :

Colossians  3:13

"Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. 14  But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union."

 

So the Luke 17 v 1 & 2 scripture means nothing then ?  Your saying the Colossians scripture contradicts it ? 

I suppose you would use that Colossians scripture against the Victims of Child Abuse. So be it Anna.

JW's showing true colours here today it seems. I'd give you the same Matthew scripture as above. 

Give consideration to those spiritually weaker that yourself. 

12 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Just shows how wrong you can be. Your presumption of happiness seems to be entirely material. That may well be at the core of your perception.

 

 

Oh dear, actually it related to scripture, but in truth I'm sure you got the point of it. You and your close friends are ok, so why worry about anyone else. But of course you knew exactly where i was coming from, and didn't like it. So be it, you show yourself  to be a true JW in attitude, selfish and not caring of others, other than close friends. Matthew 5 v 46 & 47. 

⁶  For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing?  And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing ? 

I had actually seen this attitude in the KH when I'd asked after someone who has been missing from meetings for a long time. No one really cares. They only care for these close friends. So be it. 

13 hours ago, Chloe Newman said:

Commentary of the Letter of James:

https://ia601406.us.archive.org/23/items/WatchtowerLibrary/books/1979_cj_E.pdf

(Written by Ed Dunlap ... that's why its been pulled)

 

Choosing the Best Way of Life:

https://ia601406.us.archive.org/23/items/WatchtowerLibrary/books/1979_bw_E.pdf

 

Just about every vintage publication you could ever need can be found here:

 

http://archive.org/download/WatchtowerLibrary/

 

Enjoy!

 

Chloe

 

 

 

https://www.watchtowerlies.com/who_was_edward_dunlap.html

Yep, I think no blood would mean no blood, but did God actually mean that ?

I've said before, the Jews practice Pikuach Nefesh. Basically 'save a life'.

And the scripture at Matthew 12 v 9-12 shows Jesus viewpoint covering more than the literal Sabbath. 

We have to remember that the 'done thing' back in the days of the disciples was to drink the warm blood of fallen gladiators. So no wonder Jesus' followers said abstain from blood. Other folks were actually drinking it. 

I would have thought the seriousness of the blood was that Jesus gave His blood on our behalf. 

3 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

I don't feel this way. They said read the Bible daily, I did, and life got better. I still do, life still gets better. Everybody I know does the same to a greater or lesser degree and we are all commensurately happier.

I have encountered seven GB members in my time and in my limited contacts, I have found them to all be real gentlemen, friendly and considerate, unaffected, quite pleasant to deal with, free from arrogance. The one I did know well remembered me by name on a chance encounter 10 years later, even to the point of taking up the conversation where we had left off. And believe me, I am no one special.

I just don't have the same expectations as you I think, hence I don't suffer from the same disillusionment and disappointment.

By the way, I haven't met anyone yet who doesn't get things wrong, and I don't expect GB members to be any different.

I have known many anointed ones over the years, due to where I have been located. Many of these were baptised prior to 1914. One who was a member of the first UK family to come into the "truth". I have also known many others, baptised in the 1930s. My encounters with these folk have only confirmed my faith, not shaken it, regardless of their varied viewpoints. I guess I just don't have the same take on things as you and some others here it seems. I'm sorry you have had negative experiences. ☺️

There is an expression, but i can't remember it properly.  It's something about standing too close to see something properly. 

You seem to have a personal relationship with the GB, a closeness, that would stop you seeing the truth about them.

As for getting things wrong. I'm glad Noah didn't get the measurements wrong for the Ark. And I'm glad Moses didn't lead the Israelites to the wrong point of the Red Sea. Are but of course they had Jehovah's guidance didn't they. The GB doesn't.

You first tiny paragraph sounds like this to me. I eat well every day and live in a nice warm house, and so do my friends. So why should I or they worry about people who are hungry or cold ? 

And you last sentence "I'm sorry you have had negative experiences"...... But, I don't just think about my negative experiences, I take time to consider others too. Many Earthwide who were once JW's and have left or been removed because they were stumbled due to the GB policies and the puppet Elders that didn't question orders..

Luke 17 v 1&2 

" Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones."

Watch out GB your time will come.

27 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 

I, too, was outraged. That is why I tried to top it.

I can't imagine someone as nice as you ever being outraged Tom. 

16 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I am not saying that the GB tell lies. It's very easy to get caught up in a style of speaking and writing as if we know we must be right and that only our current explanation is correct.

Doctrines are NOT promoted because a member of the GB (or Writing Dept) is thinking about whether a certain doctrine might be right or wrong, it's just that they have already accepted that it MUST be right because people before them presented it as if it must be right. If we are "puppets" that follow along without questioning, then so have been most members of the GB. They follow the persons who came before because they never saw a reason not to. If our doctrines are obviously correct about Trinity, Hellfire, Neutrality, New Earth, Preaching, God's Name, etc., then our more questionable doctrines (Blood, Chronology, Higher Education, etc) must also be absolutely right by default. The GB would have no more reason to question them than we would. What makes some doctrines finally get questioned and corrected is almost always the inability to answer a specific question about that doctrine that gets sent to the Society.

But sometimes such questions are TOO disturbing and will not be dealt with, except by looking for reasons to punish the person who asked, and I would have to admit that this reaction is very wrong. Unfortunately, this is how some humans have always reacted to those who would question established traditions.

On the other hand, it takes a lot of humility to make changes to long-established ("deeply entrenched") doctrines. It doesn't mean that we or they (GB) were lying when we accepted and promoted the former doctrines. We just weren't "making sure of all things." More and more changes of this nature have been made in the last 10 to 20 years, and they are tending to clear up many of the doctrinal inconsistencies.

Sorry but that is the biggest squirm I have read on here so far. 

We get back to this thing about the GB being the 'Faithful and discreet slave' and Jesus saying that 'Whatever the Anointed ask for in Jesus name it will be given'. And again that 'What father when his child asked for a fish gives a stone instead'. And how much more so will God give the guidance of His holy spirit to those that ask. 

So why has the GB and the Writing Department needed to misquote, misuse,  and mislead the congregation,

And you said they, 'use date or chronological system is used without Biblical or secular support'.

So guessing eh ? No. Pretending to know, when in fact they don't know. Come on, that is as bad a lying. 

People hang on their every word. 8.5 million JW's,  hang on every word of the GB.  And another 9 million bible studies also do the same, because they are told to. 

@Gone Away And Thumbs up to the walesonline.co.uk people who seem to be able to present news about Jehovah's Witnesses in a fairly objective manner. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/inside-biggest-annual-gathering-jehovahs-14991197

Yes good article. Well balanced. 

@Gone Away I prefer scriptural quotes on such serious matters. Joel 2:32 is pretty relevant (for me) "And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved"  Peter and Paul referred to this at Acts 2:32 and Rom.10:13.

Yes exactly, but the GB and their Writing Department don't seem to agree with you. 

So maybe you might agree with me when I say the GB give false information. Or at least misleading information not based on Scripture. 

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

You probably mean "What makes them think it’ll still happen...soon?" You'll get silly answers otherwise.

Talk to @The Librarian then it's his topic. Look at top of page. I just quoted form topic heading. 

@Gone Away  Um, erroneous eh ? 

15 February 1983 Watchtower, pp 12-13, article Four Requirements for Salvation: “Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.”

Watchtower March 1, 1985 p 14: “Only Christian witnesses of Jehovah who successfully pass this test will survive and come forth like fire-refined gold for God’s use in his precious new order.”

Watchtower September 1, 1989 p 19: "Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower September 15, 1993 p 22: “But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy.”

Watchtower May 15, 2006: "During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah's people are making known God's righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization."

Watchtower December 15, 2007: "But Jehovah's servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things."

Now i will admit that i haven't looked up these Watchtowers and checked the quotes, so maybe if you disagree with them you may want to check them out yourself. 

@JW Insider  Quote "Admittedly, I am somewhat of a critical reader and often find things that are easy to disagree with, at least slightly. Usually, it's when our publications make a statement that is not necessarily wrong, but could easily need to be updated in a future publication. This might be for any of the following reasons:

• Some explanation was worded as if the meaning of a thing can only be understood in one specific way when in fact the Biblical evidence makes it clear that there are other possible meanings and our conclusion is really speculation.
• Or when a quote is used but it was misunderstood or misused by the writer.
• Or when a historical event is referred to as evidence of something when the event didn't really occur exactly as was stated.
• Or when a concept isn't actually explained or defined correctly.
• Or when examples are used that can easily become obsolete, out of date, and might later require a new explanation if trends change.
• Or when a specific date or chronological system is used without Biblical or secular support. (Our date might be correct in those cases, but since we sometimes make use of an alternate dating system without Biblical or secular support, I always feel that at least an explanation of our assumptions should be included, so people know why we give a different date from 99.9 percent of encyclopedias, for example.)"

So basically when the GB tell lies and / or deliberately mislead the congregation. 

As it's often quoted: "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die...... Like I've said before, Puppets. 

I wonder, What was the true reason the Group study of a Tuesday Eve was stopped ? Sorry that's off topic. 

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If you have an early Sunday Morning meeting, you know that you have to race away from the Kingdom Hall as soon as possible to get to the Golden Corral before the Baptists show up like a plague of locusts!

Yep shows i should wake up before typing  

If SM would be kind enough to go to the top of the page and read the Topic heading he will see IT IS ABOUT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES  VIEWPOINT ON ARMAGEDDON. 

The question asked in the heading is 

What makes them think itÂ’ll still happen?

I'll make it clear here. It is. What makes the Jehovah's Witnesses think it will still happen ?

It is not out viewpoint on Armageddon that is asked for here. 

So over to all you JW's the question is aimed at you i think. But use your Bible please.  

I'll just add one thing though. Jesus warned of the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans, but it didn't happen for a long time. BUT it did happen. 

17 hours ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER  I also heard of a JW somewhere who ate insects!!!!  I know astonishing isn't it!!?!?

I saw it written somewhere on the Internet that Judge Rutherford ate insects. So it must be true.

BTW.. I love tacos.

I think you are getting confused with John the Baptist who ate locusts. 

However you may see the reason for my comment if you look on other topics, and i did say IF it is true.  

If it's true that they are making 3 year olds unbaptised publishers, then a family with four children and two adults could be counted as six publishers. There by pushing up the numbers of JW's Earthwide if this is used on a large scale.

However that household may only have one income, so six publishers, but only one contribution per month. 

It's not surprising then that the donations are going down, because in earlier years the total number on Witnesses didn't need 3 year olds to make up the numbers. There were more adults to make donations, but now many of them have left the Org of their own choice.