JOHN BUTLER

How do you count your membership?

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He also had a very high regard for Jehovah’s Witnesses, likely through his close association with Mickey Spillane 

I thought he had his body put on ice so that he could be brought back to life someday.

1 hour ago, Jack Ryan said:

At the assembly today the Circuit Overseer, Steve Elumbaugh, talked about a single pioneer mother and her 3 year old unbaptized publisher daughter. Why would he relate that experience? It just makes the Witnesses seem unbalanced. Why would the Service Committee even approve the daughter. Poor baby. She's only 3 years old. SMH. This whole thing is past ridiculous.

Now a mother may have to take her 3 year old daughter with her on the ministry,  but not as an unbaptised publisher surely. Unless there is more to it than this...... 

15 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That's why I am a big fan of the fictional character John Wayne ... he can endure ANYTHING, and barely notice.

Yes John Wayne and cowboy films. Way on back in the 1950's when I was young and life was simple, not good but simple. 

2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"STUFF HAPPENS"

Less stuff happens to those with a reputation for killing people that wrong them.

"Loving counsel" does not work nearly as well as fear of being duct taped to a chair, having your kneecaps and fingernails removed with Vise-Grip pliers.

Or fear of being disfellowshipped and completely isolated from everyone you ever knew or trusted. 

2 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

I think the GB and all the elders that support them will be removed according to how I understand Ezekiel 34.

 

I'll have to look at that then. 

52 minutes ago, Judith Sweeney said:

Just speaking for myself....on this Slanderous Topic....I have NEVER left my children...EVER "one on one" with ANYONE....besides My Parents.    I don't care WHO they were....muchless, What organization they might be affiliated with.     

             The "human factor".....

Just an update for SM really.... The only religion that i know of that go from door to door, house to house every day of every week are the Jehovah's Witnesses. In the twenty years we have lived in this house I have only seen the Mormons three times. I have never seen any other religious person at my door.

The Jehovah's Witnesses visit people homes to give personal bible studies, but also to invite people into their Kingdom Halls. 

One reason I stopped being a JW was because I thought inviting people into a Kingdom Hall was not a good thing to do in light of the Child Abuse problem within the JW org. 

My point that i am making is that i want to warn people not to go to Kingdom Halls and not to have these 'strangers' into their homes. Because Jehovah's Witnesses are not outwardly honest about Pedophiles within the JW Org it could easily be that a pedophile JW could be in your home or at the Kingdom Hall. I suppose you could say that i feel responsible to the community as i was once a JW myself and would encourage people into the local Kingdom Hall. 

JW Elders have been known to give private bible study to young children, one on one. So at that time the man would be alone with a child. I think in their official documents they say that this does not happen, but I can assure you it does. 

And, someone else commented that women too can be pedophiles. Yes of course, so that could cause another problem in the Kingdom Hall where a woman may take a child out to the toilet to 'help' the mother who may have more children in the hall. It is such a shame that people cannot be trusted, and i know it may be only one in a thousand, but it does happen. 

Because JW congregants are generally lovely people, friendly, kind, helpful etc, there is more chance of something bad happening there. Why ? Because people are off guard, not expecting anything bad. So i am deeply concerned about the welfare of children, but more so in the case of JW Org, because I was once part of that Org so i know that there are lots of children per congregation and i can see how easy it would be for a pedophile to get away with things. 

 @JW Insider "For many decades the entire anointed remnant was considered to be the "faithful and discreet slave" and this probably raised the question about why they weren't ever involved in doctrinal issues unless they were already part of the Writing Department or Service Department at Bethel. Now, as of 2011, this has changed and the GB claims to be the equivalent of the FDS, which tends to remove the question about why the rest of the anointed are not involved" .

@JW Insider "No one claims that God directly gives the GB the spiritual food they see fit to distribute" 

Wow, here we have something to work with. 

Let's think on this. All the Anointed were once seen as the 'Faithful and discreet slave'. However the GB, who are not directly guided by God, decided to demote the rest of the Anointed, and to Exalt themselves. 

Luke 14 v11 'For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted'. 

So we know that the rest of the Anointed humbled themselves when they were demoted, and we know that the GB exalted themselves by saying only they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave'. 

Now regarding true guidance from God. Jesus said to his Apostles, who are of course of the Anointed,  John 14 v 13 & 14.

Also, whatever you ask in my name, I will do this, so that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Also, For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened.  Indeed, which father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will hand him a serpent instead of a fish?  (Luke 11 v 10 & 11)

Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!” Luke 11 v 13.

So your GB that claim to be the 'Faithful and Discreet slave' should be able to ask God, through Jesus Christ, for Holy spirit, to be able to interpret scripture correctly. 

And your statement that "No one claims that God directly gives the GB the spiritual food they see fit to distribute" should be wrong.

However it can be clearly seen that the 'food' given is often wrong. Even to my first point on this comment, about who is really the 'Faithful and discreet slave'. And yet again in the 'clarifications' we have already spoken about. 

I have a theory, a bit far fetched i admit but :-

In one of my comments I said the GB should be removed and replaced. Then someone here said that no one was in a position to remove th GB. Now, perhaps the GB demoted the rest of the Anointed because the rest of the Anointed do have the right to remove the GB and replace them. After all, who can say that those 8 men are more important and should have more power than the rest of them. It may be God's plan in the near future to use the rest of the Anointed to remove the GB and to clean up the JW org. 

It's just a thought. 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It's not just available facts ... it is the skill individual people have or do not have in CORRECTLY EVALUATING those facts.

There are Good Detectives ... and there are Bad Detectives.

Bad Detectives do not detect much.

Then there are unqualified Elders, that are puppets and told what to 'detect' and what not to. 

56 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Double honor?? For what "hard work of teaching" dear Insider? For repeated wrong interpretations? For new "clarifications" that will come to be called "previous errors", "wrong expectations" and other phrases in WT terminology?  :))  

Every, each time this "new clarification" make JW members to have, not new clarification, but NEW HOPE, because "this time this must be true" ..in mind (read fantasy) of person only. :))

How very true your words are. The GB have to keep throwing crumbs to the sheep to keep the sheep happy. Even if the crumbs are false hopes. It is good that other people, such as yourself, can see  this too. 

5 hours ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER here is a recent case from the UK.  It seem that the authorities were the ones that delayed. This is a good example of the fact that reporting to authorities does not automatically assure success. You can read the whole article here:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/devious-righteous-christian-raped-two-15274172

An "arrogant" Jehovah's Witness subjected two girls under the age of 13 to years of systematic assaults and rapes.

Roy Collins, 80, was branded as "devious, righteous and arrogant" by a judge at Swansea Crown Court.

He had spent a decade systematically grooming, abusing and raping the two girls.

At one point during his campaign of abuse, one of their mothers burst into the Jehovah's Witness church in Swansea and publicly accused him of being a paedophile only to receive a letter from his solicitors warning her not to harass him.

Carline Rees QC, for the prosecution, read out impact statements from the two victims.

One said she had lived with the abuse for years before telling her family.

When she did so, the news had a "devastating effect" on her mother.

She said the abuse had an "significant impact" on her life, adding: "Every day I am happy if I can just make it through".

In her statement, the second victim said the abuse had led to her have trouble at school and to start taking drugs to try to "block out" what was happening. She said her suffering and pain continues to this day.

The court heard that one of the victims made a complaint about Collins in the 1990s, but he was not prosecuted.

The allegations were reported to the police again in 2013 - but it took five years for the matter to come to court.

Judge Geraint Walters told the defendant that his actions during the 1980s and 90s had been "truly wicked".

He described Collins as a "devious, arrogant and self-righteous man" who had lived behind veil of respectability partly through his contact with the Jehovah's Witness church.

The judge said that an example of his deviousness was the fact that when the allegations against him started to be investigated, he went to his GP claiming that he had suffered erectile dysfunction for the last 30 years.

Judge Walters said: "You are, in my judgement, a devious man, a self-righteous and arrogant man. You have shown no remorse what-so-ever towards your victims or anybody else.

"You have lived the better part of you life, you have been able to do that - your victims have not.

"There is no sentence I can pass that will restore the lives of the victims to what they might have been but for your behaviour."

He added that the case showed that when allegations of sexual abuse were made they should be tested and investigated not disbelieved.

He called the the five year delay in the case eventually coming to court "unforgivable".

But he praised the officer who eventually took-over the case and saw it through to conviction, saying that for the first time the victims had been treated with the dignity they deserved.

Thank you for this information Anna. You seem to be proving more and more just how much sexual abuse is going on within the JW Org. 

And for me it just proves that by leaving i did the right thing.  Why would i want to encourage families into this ? 

The Police or authorities should be taken to court in this case, and if it can be proved that they are to blame for the length of time the abuse continued, then they should have to compensate the Victims. As you say they do delay sometimes, but they should be shown up for their 'mistakes'.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I began to address this in a thread some time ago. As far as my status I mentioned this under another topic today:

• I am a Witness. I still associate and preach regularly and maintain my congregational privileges. To avoid specific conflicts and contentions I requested some time ago that I be allowed to step down from former congregational privileges.

On the question of why I didn't leave the organization, it's because I've never been asked to leave. I don't consider myself to be as "obedient and loyal" a Witness as others, but I see no reason to leave. There are hundreds of people in our brotherhood whom I love dearly, and I could not associate with them or do things for them if I chose to leave. I have no problem with the general intent and motivation of the organization, even if I see problems here and there. The problems certainly do not outweigh the good. It's not the religious organization that makes us Christian because we all stand on our own before Jehovah. Only if and when we are asked to obey men as ruler rather than God should we take a stand against the authority of men.

I was born and raised a Witness. I know that this illustration won't make sense to most Witnesses, but Paul said the following about the the outward appearances that can signify our religion to others, and he implies that the specifics that matter so much to others shouldn't matter so much to us personally.

• (1 Corinthians 7:17-24) Nevertheless, just as Jehovah has given each one a portion, let each one so walk as God has called him. And so I give this directive in all the congregations. 18 Was any man already circumcised when he was called? Let him not undo his circumcision. Has any man been called while uncircumcised? Let him not get circumcised. 19 Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what means something is the observing of God’s commandments. 20 In whatever state each one was called, let him remain in it. 21 Were you called when a slave? Do not let it concern you; but if you can become free, then seize the opportunity. 22 For anyone who was called in the Lord when a slave is the LordÂ’s freedman; likewise anyone who was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24 In whatever state each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it before God.

If a person conscientiously feels that they are in a kind of servitude to men because of the religion, then they could seize the opportunity to get free, and I would not judge such a person, but would still want to help them maintain their spirituality. (But note that our true freedom is not our outward situation, but between ourselves and the Lord.) It's much easier to be a Christian with a loving brotherhood of Christians around us, related to us in the faith. Christianity is "social" and we need each other for encouragement and to continue to incite each other to good works toward one another. (Heb 10:24,25) I believe that the Witnesses provide this brotherhood. It's not specifically the doctrines, but it's the value we place on God's word, studying from it and teaching from it. The value placed on the Bible produces sensible faith-strengthening doctrines that honor God. It also helps us build a Christian character that can keep us free from the world's immorality, and free from the world's nationalism, conflicts and wars. With that in mind, I do not find it difficult to remain in the state I was called.

Very interesting, thank you. Although I will disagree with you on some points such as :-

'It also helps us build a Christian character that can keep us free from the world's immorality, '  That hasn't worked in a lot of cases has it ? 

'I still associate and preach regularly'. This is one of the things I could not continue to do because the point of preaching is not only to teach others about God, but to bring people into the congregation. I no longer felt  that the congregation was a safe place to bring people into, especially young children. 

'I don't consider myself to be as "obedient and loyal" a Witness as others, '. I liked this bit, that was how I survived as long as I did in the Org, by not being as obedient as others were...  

'The problems certainly do not outweigh the good'. Now that depends if you are a Victim of one of those problems or just a bystander. 

This comes back to my point about collateral damage. Brothers and sisters that are not Victims do not understand nor do they even want to know. 

'It's much easier to be a Christian with a loving brotherhood of Christians around us, related to us in the faith'.  Um, that depends upon the weight that the Org puts on people's shoulders. And it depends on the type of Elders you have too. Unfortunately some Elders do lord it over the congregation and make life miserable for the congregants. 

 'It's not specifically the doctrines', no because they change the meanings so often ... 

'There are hundreds of people in our brotherhood whom I love dearly, and I could not associate with them or do things for them if I chose to leave'

This is an important point. Because people build their lives around the JW Org. It becomes a social thing as much as a way of serving God. So if a person, such as myself, choses to leave, then they are deliberately cut off, not just from the religious aspect, but from a complete social circle of people. Shunned, isolated, ignored. 

I was lucky (maybe should not use the word lucky) that i became friends with a business man from London that owns a large seme-derelict mansion close to where i live. So I've spent most of this year doing unpaid work for him, clearing his mansion of furniture and car parts. It came about because of my wife's interest in old buildings and photography. So my wife and I have been happy to have the keys to a mansion and be able to go there any time we want. Without this interest and work i may have gone crazy. I will add i didn't do the work for the owner, i did it for my wife, so that she could go there as and when, and I did it for the mansion itself to give it back some dignity. It's been great therapy.  

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

@JW Insider Well it began today, around 7AM in Texas, had people talk about this to me today only for me to give them information why this is not okay:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/together-2018-equip-millennials-gen-z-fulfill-great-commission-in-our-lifetime-227981/

This movement is like a thorn to the side for some, even to some Muslims ironically:

https://www.facebook.com/TogetherGeneration/

Oh dear. That is so sad. All those misled people. And it seems to be all about Jesus, God isn't mentioned, I don't think. 

52 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't see why JW's wont believe this, as it's pretty much how many cases were handled, although a few words were a little loaded showing obvious bias.

As far as I know @JW Insider is an active Witness. If so, perhaps he would like to explain why he didn't leave the org.  Sorry JW Insider if I put you on the spot, but this goes back to my conversation with John Butler where I pointed out that I have probably read the same kind of information as him, but why is it that it made him leave, and why am I staying. I know it's a lot more complex than that. There are a lot of factors at play in including personality, experience, honesty, trust etc. Unfortunately our conversation trailed off, maybe it can be restarted again since the topic is "why John Butler left Jehovah's Witnesses" (the topic I never started, the librarian was at it again)

Well it seems as if Billy the Kid doesn't believe such things, nor True tom. 

As for why I left and you didn't, different personalities etc, yes probably. And a lot to do with the fact that i got fed up with being told to be 'humble' about everything, which doesn't actually mean be humble it means shut up and do as you are told. 

As for restarting our conversation, most people here are fed up with hearing from me. Understandable I suppose as truth hurts when it is unpleasant..  

I know you didn't start it Anna, nor would you have I'm sure.  

I suppose being turned away from a Kingdom Hall once (Reading my hometown),  being told I couldn't get baptised when i was ready, then being told when to get baptised when i wasn't ready, being in a congregation where an Elder commited suicide (Bristol ), having the teachings I'd been taught at first changed to different teachings, seeing another Elder disfellowshipped and police involved, being threatened with being disfellowshipped for slander, and then a brother being murdered in 'our' Kingdom Hall, then all this Child Abuse problem Earthwide, well it all added up. But up until the time I found out about the Child Abuse problem, i was being humble, doing as I was told, I was hanging in there....  

The JW Org has been no pleasure to me, not because of opposition from outside, but because of what i've seen from inside. 

@BillyTheKid46 Judge me as you will. I know it's impossible to convince those that are just puppets of JW Org. 

I still have love for God and Jesus Christ, but not the GB of JW Org, that is simple enough even for you to understand, but you do not wish to believe me as it knocks the GB and the Org so upsets you.  

You surely know how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and it wasn't always kindly was it ? Just because i speak a little wildly sometimes doesn't mean I don't love God, Jesus, or truth.  

As for me only reading what Barbara Anderson wrote, what nonsense. IT IS EARTHWIDE, NOT JUST IN ONE PLACE.

There are JW's, even Elders still in the Org, using false names and giving information, not wanting to leave the Org but wanting to get things sorted out and the truth told. It's not my place to name names, or get others into trouble. 

The GB of JW org does not use Biblical standards, it uses worldly legal standards now. It has two legal departments, one in JW Org and one in W/T. 

If you want Biblical standards, here's one at Matthew 18 v 6.

⁶  But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.

One of these little ones. The GB's rules and the puppet Elders have stumbled thousands of children and adults... You probably don't believe the amount of people leaving the Org either, and yes i mean leaving not being disfellowshipped. 

So, walk on. Ignore. Pretend it's not true. I wish you well. No hard feelings. We have different viewpoints, so be it. 

So, unsettling as it might be for some,  we just will not know how long Jesus meant by "this generation"  until the end comes, and no amount of fancy footwork is going to change that. 

So why do the GB pretend to know ? 

@JW Insider I don't know if you are are a Witness now, or past tense, and i don't know what side of the fence you are on.

You say, "It was the word used in the publication itself. I agree that it is one of a range of words we use so as not to highlight "previous error" or "former false teaching" etc." ..   Thank you. 

Quote : "No one claims that God directly gives the GB the spiritual food they see fit to distribute."   I'll have to look into that. 

But you seem to be saying that those 8 men, the GB, are no better than any other Witness. I don't even know if all 8 are 'of the Anointed'. I would presume they are or they think they are.

However then my next question would have to be, Why are the rest of the Anointed not seen as being as important ? And why did the GB actually have written in a W/T that some of those saying they are anointed have got mental issues ?  (I remember reading it but don't know if i could find it now)  

Two other points, yes i know i go on a bit. There were twelve tribes of Israel (well maybe 13 including the Levites) and there were twelve Apostles (once again maybe 13 including Paul ) so why only 8 men in the GB ?

I would have thought it would be twelve (maybe 13) members of the GB and that they would come from different lands around the Earth. 

It would make far more sense and show that Jehovah is the God over all the Earth not just America  . 

 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You have touched upon a real danger in the very specific ways in which the prophecy is interpreted for imminent fulfillment. I blew up the picture to 400 percent, and agree that Brother Herd is definitely intended, but don't know how much most of us will read into it. But other statements do make the concern about chronology real. The "subtext" is to renew faith in 1914, 1919, the Organization, etc., and equate pure worship (sacred service) with doing things closely associated with the directives we get from the Organization. 

Although our current chronology is based on unsupported interpretations, this does not mean that the book is not useful. In fact, our situation is very much analogous to the points made in Ezekiel. And, in general, I think these important spiritual lessons from Ezekiel are highlighted in a very useful way. Ezekiel was concerned about restoration of pure worship in spite of the very problems and temptations that pulled God's people away from pure worship in the first place, internally and externally. And now, after the temptations of Babylon, and a desolation of both the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel and Judea, it could be even more difficult to imagine such a restoration without Jehovah's intervention.

Also, the clarifications move us into a place where we can get much more value from the book without using it to judge Christendom, or highlight the distinctions between the anointed remnant and the great crowd, for example. One of the clarifications even moves us further from the temptation to specifically apply everything to the beginnings of the Organization under Russell and especially Rutherford in 1917/1918. I think it's clear that all of the clarifications move us closer to truth. Here are just a few of those clarifications.

Note the elimination of dividing the other sheep from the anointed. Also, the earlier "man with the writer's inkhorn" was considered to be Russell himself, then a strong implication that it should be Rutherford himself. This is a welcome change:

• Previous understanding: The man with the inkhorn represents the anointed remnant. By means of the preaching and disciple-making work, the anointed are now putting a symbolic mark on the foreheads of those who become part of the “great crowd.”—Rev. 7:9.
• Clarification: The man with the secretary’s inkhorn pictures Jesus Christ. He will mark the great crowd when they are judged as sheep during the “great tribulation.”—Matt. 24:21.

The meaning of the "two sticks" could be interpreted as a reversion to the distinction, but recall that these two sticks are united.

And next we lose the self-righteous judgmental attitude toward "Christendom."

• Previous understanding: Unfaithful Jerusalem is a prophetic type of Christendom. Hence, the destruction of Jerusalem prophetically foreshadowed that of Christendom.
• Clarification: Conditions in unfaithful Jerusalem—such as idolatry and widespread corruption—remind us of Christendom, but we no longer refer to Christendom as the antitypical Jerusalem.
• Reasoning behind the change: There is no clear Scriptural basis for such a type-antitype approach.

And here is one way we have begun removing the specific emphases on 1917, 1918, 1919, 1922, etc., by moving the focus from this period back the 2,000-year period preceding the types of clarifications from about a hundred-year period beginning 1919 .

• Previous understanding: In 1918 the persecuted anointed were brought into captivity to Babylon the Great, experiencing a deathlike condition of near inactivity. That short captivity ended in 1919 when Jehovah revived them as Kingdom proclaimers.
• Clarification: The deathlike condition of spiritual captivity lasted a very long time and began much earlier than 1918. It started in the second century C.E. and ended in 1919 C.E. and basically parallels the long growing season in Jesus’ parable of the wheat and the weeds.

We haven't completely removed the unsupported chronology, of course, and the book even references the God's Kingdom book for further support, but I appreciated all the changes nonetheless.

Very interesting information which confirms another of my feelings. The GB are not the faithful slave class.

I do love your use of the word 'clarifications', when in fact you mean, change of meanings. 

And i will repeat my question here, If the GB are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' why do they not get it right first time ?

Surely God does not give them false information ?  

A faithful and discreet slave would make sure the food he fed the domestics was good pure food, otherwise the Master would not be happy if the slave fed poison to his domestics and killed them spiritually, or at least stumbled them in many cases.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

A site that appears closely related to Barbara Anderson's activism has an article claiming to be from an Elder who recently left over the same issue of Child Sexual Abuse. https://scaars.org/2018/10/16/an-insiders-account-about-how-a-report-of-child-sex-abuse-is-handled/

It highlights the problem brought up by John Butler. These are from 3 through 6 of the 10 bullet points from that article:

• Two elders would be assigned to talk to the victim and her parent to gather details. If they determine that the child is giving a truthful account, they would report back to the Coordinator about their findings. The proper legal authorities would still not be notified.

• Their next step would be to call the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (WTBS) in New York. The Legal Department would then direct them as to whether or not they are legally obligated to contact the proper legal authorities to report the case. The default stance taken is that, unless there is a specific state law directing them to do so, the authorities need not be notified.

• The elders then determine if there will need to be an internal judicial hearing about the accusation. If there is only one witness to the abuse, as is the case in almost every instance of sexual abuse, they will not pursue it further. If there are two witnesses to that specific instance or if there are multiple reports from different children that this has happened at the hands of the same person, they will form a judicial committee to determine whether the offender is repentant. This committee will decide whether the offender can remain a member of the congregation or will be excommunicated, or disfellowshipped according to Jehovah’s Witness nomenclature.

• If the offender is not disfellowshipped, other members are not informed about the situation. At the most, an announcement might be made that the offender was “reproved” but displayed repentance. No mention of the type of crime will be divulged to the congregation. Parents will be unaware that a sexual offender is in their midst. They will continue to socialize and trust that their children are safe even in the presence of the offender.

 

Thank you for your comment and the link is much appreciated. I believe every word of it, but of course many JW's won't. 

It does very much demonstrate what i have been saying and why i left the JW Org. 

@Anna  "Problems have arisen because this situation needs also to be handled secularly, and if the perpetrator is found guilty, to be punished by secular law also, not just disfellowshipped."

We agree on that point. So why does the GB withhold information ? If all the accusations that the GB have on record were handed over to the 'proper secular channels', then all the accusations could be dealt with and those found guilty could be punished. 

Whilst now, even if a person has been disfellowshipped, they are still a danger to children outside the Org. And i come back to the 'duty of care' to the Victims and the general public. 

And as for your 'proper investigation'. It does not take much for an Elder to ask a Victim, 'Do you have witnesses' and for the Victim to say No. Then the Elder say 'There is nothing we can do then'. Investigation over.  

10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I can see the preexisting condition you have toward the Watchtower. This, of course, does not allow me to know if you were baptized or not. If you were disfellowshipped or just faded.

But through the understanding of scripture, which the Watchtower bases all of its understanding, one would relate to Psalm 115:3, 2 Chronicles 20:6 with which authority Christians should guide themselves with.

Under this understanding, Jesus was introduced to the world and charged with the same authority. Matthew 28:18 Jesus then gave that authority to the Apostles Luke 9:1, and then charged a large group of his disciples. Luke 10:1-23

At this point, after the last apostle died. Christianity lost the headship that should have continued under biblical understanding. Christianity decided to become authorities within themselves. They reverted back to their old ways. This is one of many reasons Pastor Russell sought to return the authority back to God through whomever God would choose.

This is the authority which has become contentious to so many. How can one prove the existence of the Holy Spirit? You asked this before. I can easily say how can you disprove the Holy Spirit. If God saw not to allow such authority, he would allow the same manifestation of 100CE continue as it has been within Christianity. But how many Churches put the full practice of scripture in their daily lives. Christianity continues to build upon what man brings to the table while hated Christians wait until God chooses to manifest himself as he did with the ancient (i.e. A Christian group, organization, gathering) Acts 6:3 now I understand some won’t consider the GB, these men as reputable men. I would just remind you, this is an assumption without earthly or heavenly proof. The prophets of old proclaimed God’s righteous laws, Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of heaven and his fathers will. The Apostles proclaimed Jesus righteousness and love. Those charged, proclaimed the Good news as taught by Jesus. Everyone had to obey God's governance and laws. Jesus was no exception, why should the GB.

What has the Watchtower missed?

I was a baptised brother for many years. January of this year i chose to 'resign' from the JW Org, because of Child Abuse issues Earthwide. I did three months research via the internet before making my decision. Then I emailed as many Elders in the congregation as i could and told them I was leaving the JW Org.  I had to go to the KH to sign paperwork and that was it. I am no longer a JW.

That does not mean i have turned against God or against Jesus Christ. I still love God and pray often. I still have love for Jesus Christ and pray through him to God. I am still looking for truth through the scriptures and prayer.

I have never questioned the existence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the 'active force' that God uses to 'get things done' and to pass on information to those God wishes to have such information. 

I find it strange that you refer to 'the Watchtower' as I tend to refer to JW Org. I've always thought of the Watchtower as being the 'business' and printing side of things. However it seems that now JW Org and the Watchtower have different legal departments, to the annoyance of the American legal system. 

Billy, you've written a lot but proved nothing. Writing about Jesus and the Apostles, giving me history as if I'm a child, does not impress me at all. I asked you what proof you have that your GB are guided by God. You give me no proof.  I ask everyone on here what proof they have that the GB are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' and no one gives me any proof what so ever.

It was nice of someone, sorry i cannot remember who it was, to show some of the 'cop outs' in Watchtower literature, showing that they are not sure of what they write. Surely if they truly believed that they were guided by God's Holy Spirit, they would have faith in God to know for sure that the things they put into print are from God. 

In the Revelation book, page 9, the writing with the picture. .... " It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infalible "

That is a cop out. That is saying they are not sure of what they write. 

Could you imagine the Apostles starting off talking to a crowd by saying, "We could be wrong but we think .... "  NO, the Apostles were guided by God's Holy Spirit and had full confidence in what they preached. 

It can be proved that the GB have got things wrong many times. Oh how i wish I still had all my study books from the 1970's onward.

I'll say it again. God does not give false information. Jesus said "What father, if his son asked for a fish, would give him a stone"  (or similar words) God will not mislead true servants of His. So why does your GB give false information ? 

Answer, because they are not who they pretend to be. 

Have i found the true answers yet, no. But if I'm looking for clean pure water i don't drink from a muddy pond. 

@BillyTheKid46 "Those that stand in the middle as some do, find themselves not just questioning the authority God has put in place on earth, and at times questioning his own words listed in scripture. "

So what authority has God put in place on the Earth, with proof please ?  

Of course we know about the early Christians, but i mean can you prove what authority is in place now ?  

11 minutes ago, Anna said:

I guess this could be interpreted two ways, depending on what your assumptions about the Witnesses are in the first place. Whether you believe the Witnesses' policy is not to report because they want to hide perpetrators, or whether you believe the policy is to disfellowship as soon as enough scriptural evidence is gathered, regardless of involvement  of secular authorities.

So looking at it  from the second point of view this doesn't make much sense because what does disfellowshipping have to do with reporting to authorities?  So it makes me wonder if the point that was being made was that there was sufficient scriptural evidence to disfellowship at a congregational level, without even needing evidence from the authorities (such as forensics etc.) And was the "good job" referring to good job for not reporting, or good job for gathering enough evidence to disfellowshipp?

Thankfully now it has been made clear that a case of child sexual molestation is treated two separate ways. One is at a congregational level and the other is at the secular authorities' level, as stated in par 10 of the Child Protection packet:

"If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter"

This was obviously not apparent in the Montana case.

But isn't this just going round in circles. The Elders conduct a Scriptural investigation, but only if they believe Child Abuse has taken place.

If they dismiss the Victim as telling lies, because the victim does not have two witnesses, or no solid proof, then the 'investigation' is almost nothing. Many victims have said they were not believed. So it's back to square one. Elders are not trained investigators to investigate such matters. 

The JW Org / GB say that Armageddon is very close. They also say that Jehovah is speeding up the work in these 'last days'.

Now, it seems I'm not one for knowing truth from lies, so people keep telling me, but this webpage/site seemed interesting to me.

 It seems to show more of a decrease in JW's, but more importantly it seems to show more of a lack of faith, or lack of action / 'works' of JW's. It also shows a large number of people leaving the JW Org. 

If this video or page has been used before then I apologise for any repeat. But I thought it was of interest. 

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php