JOHN BUTLER

23 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Some god of justice...

That is why i think we are a long way from Armageddon. I think life earthwide has to get massively worse so that everyone will have to decide which way they are going, serving God or against Him. 

Whilst we can sit at our computers like this, life is toooo easy. As for JW's just obeying orders, that is tooooo easy too. 

And i know for sure that a lot of JW's 'just get their hours in', to please the Elders, not in true service to Jehovah. Having been on the ministry and seen them looking at their watches to see if the time is up. 

No, it has to become more difficult, more effort needs to be needed to prove a person's stance. Like Russia maybe but Earthwide. 

Everyone losing their homes, Kingdom halls being closed down by governments earthwide. And of course the fall of Babylon the Great has to come first. 

When Armageddon is really here I think the judgement by Jesus Christ will be short and swift as people will have chosen their side. 

Whether it will be brutal or not can be argued, but i think the scriptures say that birds of prey will feed of the bodies for a long time. 

1 minute ago, Space Merchant said:

@JOHN BUTLER I'd also like to point out that the link about UCA/GAUFCC is in connection to Interfaith as seen on the website linked by you which can lead to here: https://www.interfaith.org.uk/

You should also realize that Interfaith based things is of Apostasy practices, of Babylon the Great, for mainstream Christendom had given themselves up yearly to such, those who do not are seen as martyrs. Avoid anything to do with or connected with Harlot's main practices anything that is supporting of or by action to the E.I.I. and Lucis Trust.

 

This among many things is one has to be very very cautious of.

Yes it seemed strange to me that they accepted people of all different faiths.

And i think you have mentioned previously about the Pope trying to bring different faiths together as one. I do understand that it is against God's will for that to happen. 

The scriptures / Revelation, talk of 'Babylon the Great' and that it will fall (soon?). And that it will be noticable earthwide when it happens. 

I don't know your feelings on that or about Armageddon. And do you think the 'Good News of God's Kingdom' should be preached by an organised religion of some type now before Armageddon happens ? 

32 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Speaking of getting rid of someone in a grotesque fashion .... I once had PETA try to take me to court for the way I disposed of grey field mice that got into my home.

I bought a galvanized sheet metal box trap, with a wind-up spring loaded four bladed paddle wheel, that when the mice ate the cheese, they tripped the paddle wheel and got smacked on the butt into the next compartment, as the paddle wheel rotated 1/4 turn and the paddle that  had been the ceiling, now was the wall partition between the two compartments. You could catch, undamaged, up to about 20 mice.

When I captured more than ten mice in the second compartment, I would tell them I was going to ship them by FEDEX to Disneyland, to meet Mickey Mouse.

Then ..... I didn't.

Um, twenty field mice. Nice quantity for a pie. 

On 6/10/2018 at 9:15 PM, Queen Esther said:

More  for  lady - legs....   but  NOT  for  faces, 

So, should ladies shave their legs if Jehovah created and designed them to have hairy legs  ? 

S.M. I tried to understand where you are coming from, but I failed. I wasn't trying anything on. 

I just remembered you saying you are a Unitarian in the past and thought I'd look it up. Sorry for being wrong. 

2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

There seems to be some confusion with preservation. I don’t recall where a great amount of rainfall severely damaged structures other than mold. Physical destruction as “events” like earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis, etc. leave a physical imprint.

To an intelligent person, this would be separate issues, and not having them clumped into one.

Science thesis on the Iceman (Otzi) to be about 5300 years. If we use creation combined with science, then the Iceman is a pre-flood victim that was deposited in that arctic region then was covered with layers of permafrost until the body was discovered in modern time in its pristine mummification.

Yet, archeology or science will not admit this theory in order to preserve their own erred conclusions by not giving God credit for his creation after the expulsion from the garden.

Live life smarter….

'A great amount of rainfall'. I think the flood was a bit more than that.

It came upward from the ground as well as downward from the 'canopy'. 

And the pressure pushing downwards would, one would think, destroy all in it's path.  There are of course things remaining intact on the sea bed in various places, and with Jehovah's powers anything is possible. 

Those that believe, believe. Those that don't, dont. And of course 'science' / governments / businesses  will not give praise to God.

My view of science is that 'whoever pays the piper calls the tune'.    

I still think it's funny that someone has dated the building of a pyramid to the same date as the flood. 

18 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001150

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_buildings

How did these buildings survive a flood that altered the surface of the earth? if the pyramids were built in 2500 BCE, a few hundred years BEFORE the flood, how did they survive the flood? Why don't they at least show damage as a result of the flood that reshaped the surface of the earth? Did God miraculously preserve these buildings just to confuse modern humans?

Thank you for those links 

So a pyramid was built at the exact time of the flood ? 2370 B.C.  That's clever. 

I didn't even know the whole Earth was being populated back then. 

I suppose the way of dating things has to come into question, radiocarbon dating or relative dating etc. 

There is a young Elder in the Honiton congregation in East Devon, England, that keeps growing a beard, then after a month he will shave it off, then grow it again a couple of weeks later. A young man with thick dark hair so his beard appears quickly, but disappears just as quickly. Quite funny, but unfortunately shows a lack of stability and lack of balance.  So how good is he at being an Elder if he cannot even decide on having a beard or not.  

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Bad things happens to all of us, in home, kindergarten, school, workplace, on holidays ....etc.

Well, choice to doing "normal" stuff as going to higher education is, have to be matter of your personal choice and NOT RESULT OF DOGMATIC TEACHING, INSTRUCTION, ADVICE, COMMENDATION of Church Leaders. 

About "stupidity". There is two sort of that connected to comment i made. One came from naivete , inexperience, or natural lack of reasoning for some stuff. Other came because we alone make us (and with help of others people too) to believe something and have strong feeling how we make best decision.

Religion (and not only religion) have that power to make us so sure in wrong things. Don't you think the same?      

Yes I agree with your last sentence. I first learnt the JW teachings from my brother. I had always believed and relied on my 'big' brother for advice as he always seemed sensible and balanced. My father died, at age 49, when i was only 20, so my brother acted as a father to me in many ways.  So, I took what my brother said as 'truth' in many matters .... However, now I've grown older and have more experience in life, i have come to realise that not all things my brother said were 'truth', to the point that i now know that he would use things to his own advantage. 

And as I've said before the JW Org have a way of telling congregants not to question anything they say. And once again when a person gets older or wiser, then they do their own research, they find that not all JW teachings are true. 

Good morning....  My wife and i sat and watched this musical film 'Les Miserables' on television last night.  I could not sit and watch a stage play or stage musical, but I can watch a film musical.

Over two hours long and i thought it was fantastic. Showing both sides of the story, both that thought they were right. Yet showing also man's inhumanity to man.

Ecclesiastes 8 v 9.

"All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm."

So many humans on Earth right now. So many lifestyles. So many religions. So many people thinking they are right. So many killing each other for so many reasons. 

My brother who is an Elder in a congregation of JW's, says he cannot understand why Jehovah hasn't yet brought Armageddon. He says that it seems that everything has been done and every point proven, so why keep the suffering going on. Some say it is to allow other people the chance to serve God. And all those that die will get a resurrection anyway. 

But due to my disappointment within the JW Org I cannot see any religion that is serving God properly. Nor can i see any religion that can prove they have God's spiritual backing. 

I don't even know if God's name should be Yahweh or Jehovah or something completely different. 

I'm wondering why God allows it to be so difficult to find the truth about Him and about how we should serve Him. 

For the sake of a certain person I looked at a website concerning Unitarians, and found it quite amusing. https://www.unitarian.org.uk/pages/unitarianism-explained

Though in fairness I only looked at this first 'page'. But it seems they play it safe by allowing their members to be of 'any religion'.  I do wonder if they would go to war and kill each other as Catholics do. 

Yes, man's inhumanity to man. How much longer must it go on ? 

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am ok with it. Sometimes it is even deserved. That is, as long as you confine yourself to Gone Home’s second definition. Go in peace, my son.

Thank you Tom. Warmest Christian love to you and your family. 

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Look, don’t make me mad!

GREEN IS GOOD. RED IS BAD!! Or is it the other way around. Either way, Xmas sucks.

I don't know but I'm loving these mince pies  

The word that people are disliking here was given to True Tom as he was being sarcastic about a comment I'd made to SM. 

T T has a habit of either twisting things i say or mocking them, hence I called him what i did.

If a person chooses to act in a stupid way then I think they deserve to be told bluntly what they are being. 

I have yet to see him complain directly to me,  so I presume he is ok with it.  Move on. 

I can laugh as I'm retired so no work. Well old age has to have something good  I was 69 on Friday.

Oh dear next year I'll be 70.  That will be my three score year and ten. Then lights out maybe. 

24 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

When Pastor Russell started to rethink Christianity, he made it a point to make the Bible students nondenominational. Anyone who wanted to break away from the normal Christian ideology was welcomed to speak their minds within the Bible student association.

The problem with that, some would revert back to their old customs instead of pushing the limit into true bible knowledge. This is when an opposing view was printed for clarification. The problem there with the Queens English combined with colonial English was at times people would read articles as though the person writing, was talking about themselves instead of another.

This is where a modern researcher fails by trying to understand old English with a modern understanding of Basic English.

Rutherford’s era was more problematic since there were hardliners of Pastor Russell that wanted to see for instance McMillian as President rather than Rutherford. This story is too conflicted, but in the end, on the convention where everyone was asked to cast their vote, everyone raised their hand in favor of Rutherford. No one was forced to vote. Perhaps opposers like to think so. Even Historians get the Watchtower history wrong.

This is why Rutherford decided to name this new group of Bible students Jehovah’s Witnesses. Partly because it was a more appropriate theme, but also to distinguish this group from the splintered Bible Student groups that no longer were part of the Watchtower.

So, if people can’t even get the history right, how correctly will they have gotten scripture?

Now SM seems not to defend one particular group of Christians but Christianity as a whole. There’s nothing wrong with that. Anyone knowing theology has a universal look into Christianity while holding their doctrine and values in the first regard. But just like those early theologians, people now use discussion forums instead of debating through newspaper articles or books.

How else did the characterization of plurality and formalization have started to receive a solution to the greater questions, positions between Antioch and Alexandria?

Although it’s a shame some people don’t exercise wisdom as apostle Paul did. They prefer to understand scripture with carelessness and assume they are correct. I feel sorry for those people that consider their truth is Bible truth even though they are way off the mark.

On a different subject, The Word TWAT. How is this not offensive? Wasn’t AllenSmith34 removed for being offensive, or was it the honesty the person brought to the discussion that got the person removed? I recall someone calling this person Allen the terrible. What’s the difference, on being offensive like Butler?

I worry you do i billy ? That you want me removed. I've already said what Twat means in the English. Remember I'm not American. 

If you are offended then why oh why are you on this forum ? Wasn't this forum once called something else, related to trouble ? 

Take a lesson here from Jesus, at John 1, v 45 - 47

⁵  Philip found Na·thanʹa·elc and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote:dJesus, the son of Joseph,e from Nazʹa·reth.” ⁴⁶  But Na·thanʹa·el said to him: “Can anything good come out of Nazʹa·reth?”f Philip said to him: “Come and see.”⁴⁷  Jesus saw Na·thanʹa·el coming toward him and said about him: “See, truly an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”

Jesus seems to have found what Nathanael said as funny. Whereas he could have found it offensive.  Learn from it. 

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What should a member of the JW community do?

JW TV and publications does not provide balanced news regarding events related to the WT organization and the legal aspects involved, such as court cases concerning pedophilia and failure to report such events to secular institutions.

It also forbids JW members to contact the former JW, even to say simple "hello" on street or wherever. Even when they (GB of WTJWORG) allowing a JW member to talk to their excluded family member who living in the same family (house, under same roof - literally, because if exJW not live in same family place, instructions are that JW have to cut all possible contacts), WT prohibits them from discussing so-called "spiritual things." Because they consider that the former JW could be repulsive and "fool", spoil the true JW witness with "inaccurate proofs" and "apostate teachings".

What does the magazine "Awake" say about whether to listen and to be familiar with the opposing views? Here is what WT consider as "positive". It is in context of "evolution issue" but we can see "the principle", don't we? Would you, do you use the same principle and be careful and wary about WT claims how "all is apostates lies"?! Quotes are as following;

 

Examine the Evidence

IF YOU were on trial in a court of law, would it be fair if only your opponent was allowed to present evidence? No, you would surely want the court to hear your side of the matter.

Reasonable persons agree that the only fair method is to examine the evidence on both sides, both for and against a disputed theory. That is how one arrives at the truth.

But, as physicist L. Dolphin wrote to the San Francisco Chronicle: “It is intellectually dishonest to fail to answer some of these problem areas in textbooks, and to exclude other scientifically based models on the grounds that they are merely fundamentalistic religious beliefs.”

Truly it is “intellectually dishonest” not to want any opposing views heard on such a disputed matter. It has to make reasonable persons ask, Why?

Reasonable persons also consider it unworthy of serious scholarship to try to stamp out criticism of evolution by dictatorial methods, by intimidation, or by attitudes such as that of prominent American scientist Isaac Asimov, who said that questioning the theory of evolution is like “attacking the theory of gravity.” He added: “It’s a fact, not speculation.” But gravity can be demonstrated, tested, and proved in the laboratory and elsewhere. Evolution cannot, which is why so many are challenging it. No one is challenging the idea of gravity.

Trying to insult the intelligence of critics of evolution to silence them is especially “intellectually dishonest” when many evolutionists themselves admit that the theory has not been proved.

No, it will no longer do to try to browbeat or insult persons who challenge evolution, or to imply that they are intellectually deficient. To get to the heart of the matter, we have to put the “guessing” aside and honestly analyze the facts that are available.

What happens when we do examine the facts, without the “guessing”?

 

end of quotes from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101973762    Awake 22 10 1973, page 7.

How do you feel about this? "Old truth" but truth :))))

 

Srecko, you are much better than me at explaining this and it seems you have more patience too.

Well done. 

And yes, the reason the GB and the JW Org don't want witnesses to talk to ex - witnesses is because they don't want the congregations finding out the real truth about things such as Pedophilia, or past failures, wrong predictions etc.  

14 hours ago, Anna said:

In view of last weeks WT study "Do you have the facts" (August 2018, page 3) and thanks to @Gone Away for highlighting the following reports, I thought I would put this in a separate and concise topic to show an actual and recent example of misinformation.

NEWS REPORT: (I cut it a little short because the article went on about the ban in general. You van read the whole thing here: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/five-jehovah-s-witnesses-detained-in-russia-investigators-10812938)

MOSCOW: Five Jehovah's Witnesses have been detained in Russia and charged with possessing weapons and running an extremist group, investigators said Wednesday (Oct 10, 2018), in the latest case targeting the banned religious movement.

They were arrested in the Kirov region northeast of Moscow, where authorities said they found two grenades and a landmine in searches of their homes.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are a Christian denomination that originated in the United States in the late 19th century.

The Russian authorities consider the movement a totalitarian sect and last year the country's supreme court banned the Jehovah's Witnesses from operating in Russia.

"They had been conducting meetings and called on others to join their organisation," Yevgenia Vorozhtsova, a spokeswoman for regional investigators, said.

She said officials were investigating how the members of the Jehovah's Witnesses had obtained the ammunition, but declined to provide further details.

Yaroslav Sivulskiy, a member of the European Association of Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, said it was the first time the Russian authorities had accused members of the movement of possessing ammunition.

"We were shocked," he said from the Latvian capital Riga. "It is both funny and strange. Why mines?"

One of those detained was a Polish national residing in Russia, he said.

 

THE FACTS: (here I took the liberty of slightly adjusting the translation by Google, so it made more sense)

On October 9, 2018, in the city of Kirov, during a search of the house of retired Vladimir Bogomolov, a collector of artifacts from the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945), investigators seized fragments of obviously unusable rusty shells. The man was searched because his 69-year-old spouse (the only one of her entire family) professes the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The woman does not share her husband's fascination with antiques. Thus, the report that the ammunition was seized allegedly from Jehovah's Witnesses is not true.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not take weapons for conscience reasons. For this position they appeared before tribunals of different countries and went to concentration camps. They will be grateful to the media for clarifying the misunderstanding .

Vladimir Bogomolov, from whom the relics were confiscated, was in the past an active participant in a search movement (aimed at burying the remains of the soldiers who died in World War II), he was the brigadier of the search party. The activities of his squad were written about in newspapers. On October 9, 2018, upon the discovery of the artifacts, a criminal case on the illegal possession of weapons was instituted, it was allocated in a separate proceeding. The items were sent for examination.

 Source: https://jw-russia.org/news

 

 

And your point is ? 

Even the Twelve were not perfect. They argued amongst themselves as to who was the greatest. 

They asked to sit on the right hand and left hand of Jesus in His Kingdom. Not exactly being humble was it ? 

Paul argued with Barnabas Act 15 v 39, 40.

At this there was a sharp burst of anger, so that they separated from each other; and Barʹna·basn took Mark along and sailed away to Cyʹprus. Paul selected Silas and departed after he had been entrusted by the brothers to the undeserved kindness of Jehovah.

I am but a sinner, expect nothing grand from me. I sometimes answer idiots bluntly. 

However if someone feels they have been given authority to judge me, so be it..... Jehovah, through Jesus Christ, will be my true judge. 

As for the Christmas colours. Who designed and brought into being colours ? Was it Jehovah God or Father Christmas ? Huh, Christmas colours rubbish. Once again Traditions of Men.

11 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Mr. Butler has to know out in the real world when you preach the gospel, people will not take kindly to vague answers to a question. He has to learn sooner or later because if he were to preach the gospel to people, there will be things he cannot answer correctly or fully.

For a Butler can say Jesus is the Son of God and the guy he preaches to pulls up a verse, Titus 2:13, such things you cannot be vague about, to speak and defend the truth of the bible, one has to answer the question accordingly, fully even and at least drop a verse or two, in that way you actually use the Bible in spreading the gospel.

Jesus, the disciples, ministers and Paul can explain themselves, we should be doing the same. But when people speak the truth such ones do not accept it, and it is not by my hands or someone else that on the day that the Christ returns, His Sword would be drawn on the very person who denied what is true, for that fault is on the hands of the man who does not listen, just as it was in the days of Noah, in the days of those who didn't heed the call of what was about to go down in Jerusalem and other examples as seen in the Bible.

Also the Christmas thing, I didn't realize it, however he can use colors to separate his words, as long as it can be seen and the like.

Mr Butler will in future ignore S.M. as Mr Butler knows how to teach people God's word and it's meaning and does not need any advice from SM.    

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We don’t do Christmas around here. What! Did you forget everything?

Twat. 

S M  you are not a J.W.  so they would say you lack spiritual wisdom. 

As for me, I'm still laughing at you.  I'm not on here to answer your questions as you are not a JW and haven't been one,, so we have no level start point. But you will not understand that because you are full of your own importance. 

My reply to your question was  We have free will to serve God or not. But either way there will be a reaction to our actions. 

Part of your latest reply was :- 

 You have free will to do what you want. But, as pointed out, there are consequences, being wide open to those that oppose God,

 Don't you see a similarity there, but you told me i was wrong ? 

15 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

Does it really say that ?  My mobile phone is just for phone calls and texts so I've no idea.

 

S. M. still does not understand that i don't care what other religions or other books, or other people say. I am only interested in what the GB of the JW Org teach as "truth" from their viewpoint. 

And now SM has taken to judging me as to my spirituality by asking me questions form his own standpoint. And he says I am not spiritual because I don't meet his 'standards'. 

SM is a funny person. But we are all different.