JOHN BUTLER

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Billy’s right. Often the answer is ‘Who cares?’ 

Bethel only cares that the scriptures not be dissed. They do not presume to instruct scientists on their own turf, and when they do, they back off.

They have referred to the time since the beginning as eons, and the creative days as epochs. Do with those terms what you will. 

Does some view of science back them into a corner? Maybe it will change. If it doesn’t and seems to be valid, new light will take care of it. Let scientists be scientists and Bible teachers be Bible Teachers. It’s amazing how anal some people get.

Are they dogmatic at JW headquarters? They have published an interview with Michael Behe, who accepts evolution in the main, but just insists that it has limits. They wouldn’t have done that if they hated each others guts.

Seems you are another one that cannot face the truth. 

And if the GB don't care about their mistakes / lies, then why should anyone believe a single word they say ? 

And again it proves they are not the 'Faithful and discreet slave', if they tell lies and don't care....  

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I’m sorry to say, you wasted a lot of time for nothing.

I will only indulge you with one point. The Bible student era does not belong in a witness debate unless you are willing to meticulously want to argue word for word.

The Watchtower 1/1/1987 p. 30 Questions from Readers is referring to when the 7000 years would begin. Revelation is the book to understand. The 49,000-week jubilee is another way to show, not the 6000 creative years but the Sabbath the conclusion on which God rested. This will be the resurrection within the 1000 year reign. Nothing more.

I can debate the rest but it seems pointless at this time since the articles have lost their understanding in your point of view since the last portion of your comment answered it for you. You did some good research. Hopefully, someday it will make sense for you.

 

Srecko didn't waste his time, his research was good. 

You on the other hand are a blind person that does not want to see. 

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 It's all about credibility.

How well do you trust a prognosticator who has a 100 plus year

completely unblemished record  ...of being always WRONG?

 

 

 

AAAAaaaand .... here are some answers!

This is fantastic stuff. Kingdom Ministry May 1974. 

Lovely.      Last days...  People sold their houses because they were told Armageddon would be 1975. 

Yes i know it doesn't say it in exact words, but those that were there know it was told that way. 

 Srecko  i have to thank you for your research concerning the lies that the GB of the JW Org used concerning the 7000 year creative days. 

Even if a person doesn't want to include the Bible Students, your quotes from 1951 to 1987 proves that the GB are not the Faithful and Discreet slave class that they pretend to be.

Where is the direction from Our Heavenly Father to the GB ?  It does not exist. The GB are not who they pretend to be. 

Each creative day 7,000 years ?  Um, please remember, God does not lie, nor does He give false information. 

25 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What would be another side of your argument? What if the Watchtower got it right? What then. It seems the Pharisees used the same argument for Jesus. Was Jesus wrong? Pastor Russell decided, it was time to distance himself from all the misunderstandings Christendom had to offer. What part of a literal hell do you still believe in? What part of killing another in the name of patronage and God do you still subscribe to?

The Beginnings of the Watchtower was in learning the truth as taught by. Christendom taught what was appealing to their agenda. Repent or go to hell. Something that is still played out today.

But at least you’re honest with yourself to know, with the temperament and hatred, you could not be chosen by God unless you honestly repented in his eyes as did the apostles. Remember only you have the power to save your own soul. Don’t waste it. Never say never.

The Watchtower has dealt with child abuse for decades now. The problem is not the message. What makes it a problem is the new laws introduced to accommodate the new legal language that has changed. The Watchtower is adapting itself to those changes as it has done in the past.

Now SM probably didn’t show evidence due to copyright laws that someone here mentioned. We need to start honoring those laws just as we would for anything else. That is the Christian way. Just like you stop at a stop sign or a traffic light to honor your local laws, then it is a no-brainer.

? this is just an observation. I haven’t read SM’s mind.  As for your age, you and James have something in common.

 

It's really my bed time, so I'll be brief and won't get any books out for reference but :-

In the late 1800's they knew Christmas was wrong but they carried on celebrating it until 1926 (?)

In the late 1800's or early 1900's they knew smoking was against Jehovah's will, misuse of their body which they had dedicated to God,  but smoking was allowed until 1970. 70 years of sin in that case. 

In the 1960's / early 1970's they taught that each 'Creative day' was 7,000 years long, and then it was presumed that  the 'rest day' of God would be the same. So it was taught that after 6,000 years of humans living on earth then Armageddon would come. They came up with a date of 1975, and at that time many witnesses sold their houses, businesses and gave up everything expecting Armageddon. But it never happened. My point on this one is not the 1975 date, as we know, that no one knows the day or the hour.   My point is that the Organisation taught that each 'Creative Day' was 7,000 years long. However now they say they don't know how long a Creative day was. 

then we have scriptures :-

How many times have they changed the meaning of the scripture  "This generation will not pass away....  "  At least three times.

How many times have they changed the meaning of the scripture Romans 13 v 1. 

Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,a for there is no authority except by God;b the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

 It really is my bedtime, I'm very tired so i hope most of this makes sense. 

But i hope these things prove my point and can give you some idea why i do not trust the GB and do not believe they are the faithful and discreet slave. 

16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I want to discuss about Armageddon, and yet you run back to the WT which will lead to another spin of responses.

But to be brief, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armageddon is the means by which God will fulfill his purpose for the Earth to be populated with happy healthy humans free of sin and death. They teach that the armies of heaven will eradicate all who oppose the Kingdom of God, wiping out all wicked humans on Earth, leaving only righteous mankind.

That being said, Armageddon focused, what do you think it is? In details, no cryptic responses, please - keep it Bible focused.

Strecko, i see SM does not answer you question. Such a shame as he thinks he is so clever. 

SM forgets that this is a JW forum, which includes the W/T. 

He seems to know what the JW Org believe but does say if he thinks they are right or wrong, which is what you have asked. 

His only response is to return with a question. Perhaps SM thinks he is copying Jesus. Asking a question in response to a question.

But we know that the Bible Students / the  GB / JW org / Wt, have got it wrong on predictions of Armageddon. 

And in my opinion it will not be so horrific as the Watchtower magazines have shown it. i don't think Jehovah likes causing pain just for the sake of it. I think Jesus and the angels will just kill those not counted as worthy. It could be just take away the gift of life and the person would be dead. That happened, i think, with the husband and wife that lied about how much they sold a field for. Each of them just dropped dead....  i do wonder though if people will be shown, in their minds, what they could have had, and if that will be their pain, the knowing and not getting... 

But i think Armageddon is a long way off yet, even if the GB say it is just around the corner, or closer.

I think everyone has to realise how bad world conditions are, so it has to be really bad everywhere.   Although I know many people are suffering in many places. 

16 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Which ecclesiastical interpretation are you comparing it to? Mind you be specific as not to use your own.

On the other hand, Do you believe you have the spiritual temperament to have God choose someone like you?

No God would not choose me for many reasons. I'm not of the anointed class, I'm not spiritual enough and do not have enough self control. I'm not reliable enough and not well balanced mentally. 69 years old and suffered in many ways, it has all taken its toll on me. 

Of course if God wanted to use me in some way then He can do anything and give 'strength' to anyone. But it is very unlikely He would want to use me.  

But, we have to ask, if God is using the GB then why have they got so many things wrong and from the beginning of the 'movement', the Bible students got so much wrong too.  So many things were not done God's way I would imagine. 

The mishandling of the Child Abuse situation is just the tip of the iceberg. 

7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You were formerly a Jehovah's Witnesses, surely you are not barred from your the very website you can still pull pictures from.

Indeed, because nowhere in the Bible was a disciple of Christ was being tempted to kill out of his own will, thus the one of whom I speak of shed no information to back up his claim, you can remember this, but what was said has been said.

Do what you must.

How so? Give an example, for instance, Peter's nakedness when fishing. Everything said is correct, mainly with the Ambassadors and the supplication thing - correct. If you want to put my Spirituality to the test so be it, but as I told Srecko and Witness, stick to the scripture, but every time when this is said they run back to the Watchtower, when I even said even they cannot help them.

So if you want to test my spiritual wisdom, we can start with this: How can you have free will if it is punishment for disobedience?

Surely for someone who studies and read the Word daily, this one should be a no-brainer.

If I am lacking, enlighten me.

My day would be great if you can get Spiritual with this one.

Free Radio Europe are not spies. They operate in the EU and were among the many barred by the State Duma new laws regarding outside broadcasting in Russia. Jake Morphonios isn't a spy because of him information about Las Vegas survivors who were killed is made public and a list of other things. Tim Pool, Soulja of God, Max Igan, T.A.U., Stefan Molyneux and a list of others... Tell me, are they spies? Surely they do not adhere to the mainstream media, for at least some of them had the audacity to speak of of grooming gangs while your own people target a whole faith community for the actions of a few in the UK and so forth bring chaos into a park because of it.

Also Butler, you make a claim, I suggest you offer proof. What spies to I have in a faith community? I merely study Christianity, Judaism and Islam, why would I waste my own time spying?

This claim of yours is as absurd as a cow in a dress...

There is a thing called Biblical and Theological studies.

As to when and where I have offended you, as you claim? Ah and yes, of course. I guess knowing way too much of the bible makes me a clown in your eyes, as Paul to those who throw him out of the city.

I am glad I do, your remark on Peter's nakedness was quite amusing or what I sent over to the Christians against masturbation community, they had quite colorful words for you.

I'm not barred,  i am a 'member' with my own password. But you put up paragraphs from WT, with no reference. I was wondering if it was modern Watchtower or from fifty years ago. But no matter. if you cannot back it up, I'll just forget it. 

We will still not see eye to eye on the Peter's nakedness issue.  But once again so be it.

As for free will it has limitations. A bit like saying Adam was perfect but he couldn't jump of a mountain and fly. 

We have free will to serve God or not. But either way there will be a reaction to our actions. 

The spy thing was sarcasm as I'm sure you realised.  What i meant was you have to get your information from somewhere or some one. So you have to 'trust ' them to be telling the truth. 

People 'study' Theology as if it is just another subject, like mechanics. They look at it from a human standpoint. If you look at God's word from a practical human standpoint it does not look true or possible. The 'miracles' from start to finish in God's word look totally impossible. It has to be seen from a spiritual viewpoint, which most people cannot do. Hence the difference between the physical man and the spiritual man. 

And by the way it was you in your comment that said you offend people. I said you don't offend me, you amuse me. 

56 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I would say he is semi-new. He was here several months ago I believe for I had the first discussion with him regarding his claim of focus.

Semi new indeed. The answer is simple. Sometimes I'm very busy and not near a computer for weeks, but other times I have time and energy to spend online. 

Sometimes, after working hard for someone all day, I just don't have the mental energy to even turn my computer on.

Tomorrow will be one of those day. Laying out and lotting up an auction of automobilia, heavy, dirty, and tiring. 7am until 7pm probably. So you may not hear from me.  

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Wouldn’t this depend on what kind of casualty and liability protection the Watchtower has?

There are many misinformed people on how the Watchtower operates its finances. They don’t have billions of dollars like the Vatican to just through money away. So they find the best solution to protect the integrity of the Watchtower. The GB does not overlook every aspect of the Watchtower operation. Their main function is to interpret scripture as guided by God’s Holy Spirit. They proofread publications to see if there is a Biblical conflict with what is written. The writing department makes up those publications, not the GB. To witnesses, this is all too clear. This means, donated funds are not wasted on frivolous claims. The legal argument is made as a legal process that any business needs to attend to, not because the Watchtower wants to.

I’m sure the POPE dislikes being the center of controversy when it has to do with legal matters. I’m sure he would rather be on his popemobile waving.

Many ex-witnesses seem to have a serious problem not understanding something so obvious.

An appeals court in New York upheld the 4000 a day penalty from San Diego. This doesn’t mean the fat lady has sung yet.

 

Oh wouldn't it be nice if the GB could interpret scripture by being guided by God's Holy Spirit.

They could stop guessing then and stop getting it all wrong as they do. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

These amounts are generally reduced upon appeal and sometimes thrown out entirely, as was the previous record-holder. The much ballyhooed $4000 a day penalty imposed by some court, which ultimately became a substantial sum, was thrown out by a higher court as judicial overreach, just as @AllenSmith34, practically alone as I recall, said. In that regard, although chased around so much that he had to employ 100 aliases, though nobody else suffers too much for being offensive, he proved himself the MVP of the forum.

Nevertheless, I would never say that they are nothing, nor that they do not add up. Time will tell. It may be that our version of truth will prevail in time and not yours. Will Jehovah go to bat for those who, to the best of their ability, carry out his will? If he does, it will be like putting his finger on the scales. So substantial is his finger that whoever sits on the opposite scale goes hurtling off into oblivion.

To the extent that you succeed in your goal you impede the most selfless and efficient disaster relief program the world has known. Will God allow that? Time will tell. 

Please don't carry on about 'they only help fellow Witnesses.' The reason that they only (for the most part) help fellow Witnesses is that they are mostly volunteers using vacation time, and cannot do everyone. The best they can to is to set an example in selflessness that others can follow, if their heart moves them. So far, their example is not followed by others, who prefer established charities where everyone must be paid and sometimes unbelievable waste occurs. Such as here:

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-half-a-billion-dollars-for-haiti-and-built-6-homes

This is the model you have chosen, John. Half a million dollars. Almost all of it flushed down the toilet. Embrace it, John. It's yours. JTR too, I think, for he has also waxed enthusiastic over the prospect that the JW relief work may be slowed.

TTH you are burbling, have you been on the bottle ? 

To the extent  that i succeed in my goal ? What goal ?  All i would like is for the JW Org to be cleaned up so that if Jehovah wants to use it fully then He is able to. 

I have said previously that i don't agree with massive 'pay outs' but that victims should receive some compensation. 

Here in UK 'treatment' ( for things like depression / attempted suicide etc ) can be free, but in USA and other countries it may be expensive. Hence some compensation for having suffered at the hands of a pedophile is not too much to ask.

And the bit about 'they only help fellow witnesses' is completely lost on me. I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as I know I've never mentioned this point. 

I hope you feel better soon Tom. 

51 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Simply go to their online library, look up the verse and viola, as easy as making scrambled eggs.

Biblehub and Gateway you simply scroll down and or look for commentary or it is spotted under Bible Study Tools website.

That because I am. It is not something done on purpose for I have said knowledge is power. I do not care for I didn't come to impress, I come to correct.

Also your trust in the guardian is somewhat.... telling.

 

As for the other thing you said, most news media, news outlets and the like are not always trusted, for me, personally, I go to independent sources, 3 of which are very credible, mainly when it comes to world affairs and things happening, like in Israel and so forth, another in Russia.

 

But it would seem someone who is educated offends you and others here. No worries. This is the case with those are as so, for the care isn't there but the information still presses forward.

I asked you to supply the details of the WT you quoted and you haven't, enough said. 

When you say other people don't back up their words I will remember this. 

Knowledge you have indeed, but you lack Spiritual Wisdom SM. 

You go to independent sources do you. Ah of course you have your own personal spies inside the JW Org, well done. 

You don't offend me SM, i find you entertaining, like a clown. You help me to laugh and relax. 

Have a great day. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, I certainly don’t see any downside here. IÂ’ll just put back on the shelf that Twilight Zone episode, ‘To Serve Man,Â’ and be on my way.

 

Say, did you hear that the report that Bethel was on the ropes was completely phony. Apostates had orgasms over that report, I recall, and every opposer here, even many of the faithful, swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. There really is something to be said for that recent study article on avoiding the liars.

 

I would imagine the JW Org have a lot less money than they did ten years ago.

In the UK at least people are generally poorer and i don't think many act like 'the widow' Jesus spoke about. I would think most give out of their 'surplus wealth', not give their all. Even if some do act as that widow did, it wouldn't amount to much in pure cash terms. 

And with all the legal goings on Earthwide I would think the Org are fast losing money. 

However they are selling Kingdom Halls by the dozen it seems and even larger properties of course, so money is coming in. 

As to how rich money wise they are, probs only the GB really know  

Jehovah has clearly and unambiguously prohibited the use of blood for sustaining human life.  Many times, OT and NT.

Can I question this point please ?

Did Jesus ever forbid the use of blood to save a human life ?  Can you show me a scripture where JESUS forbids the use of blood to save a human life ? 

Let us look at a few points here.

I think it is true that the Jews / Nation of Israel practised something known as Pikuach Nefesh 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

This meant life was precious and should be saved even if it meant going against the Law.

Add to this that Jesus gave an example which in my opinion goes much deeper than the actual words of the scripture.  Matthew 12 v 9 through 12.

⁹  After departing from that place, he went into their synagogue, ¹⁰  and look! there was a man with a withered* hand!k So they asked him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him.l¹¹  He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out?m¹²  How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath.”

Surely here Jesus is saying that it is right to go against 'the Law' and /or the principles of it, to save a life. 

And please tell me, from where do those 'blood bits' come from that the GB say the congregants can use ?  I honestly have no idea on that one. 

However if those 'blood bits' come from blood itself then isn't that actually using blood ?

My wife hates cherries in cakes, so she picks them out, but she still eats the cake. If a person uses bits out of blood then in my opinion they are still using blood. 

Over to you guys. 

8 hours ago, Anna said:

I feel you are being genuine, that is why I am sorry that you are totally misinformed about the pedophile issue. It must be because you have been looking at the issue from one angle only, and believed every report you hear by those who are obviously biased, and you genuinely believe that Jehovah's Witnesses (GB) have purposefully protected pedophiles. Well you are sincerely wrong. You, and most of us have little in actual personal experiences of how real cases were handled. All we have is court transcripts of cases that were mishandled, and then sensational media coverage, not forgetting those who have an agenda against the Witnesses. I am not denying that elders did mishandle cases, and bodged them up. But we also know that there are cases that were handled correctly, or at least as correctly as possible at the time (please see your inbox).

Trust me, the GB are not too frightened to cooperate with police and official bodies. They have no reason to be. The demand for those documents by Zalkin was a farce and was eventually overturned. No lawyer, or court for that matter, has the right to demand more documents than those that are pertaining to the case. That is what Zalkin was trying to do, and that is why the demand was overturned, and the $4000 fine per day cancelled. Think logically too, do you really think that in America, if the organization was deemed a special haven for pedophiles, that the FBI wouldn't have been involved by now, and raided Headquarters for any documents or proof so that they could take action and protect all those innocent children??  One of the activists against Jehovah's Witnesses with regard to child abuse has written to the FBI twice in the last 5 years (that I know of), asking them to investigate. The FBI has not done so. Why? The activist thinks it's because the FBI does not want to get involved with religious institutions. That is baloney. The FBI will do anything to protect the citizens of America if it deems it necessary.  Here is a recent example: https://www.kyma.com/news/fbi-raids-imperial-valley-ministries/744990452

Religious institutions in America don’t have special permission to harbor criminals or protect them from the government.

Ok, thanks for feeling I'm being genuine.

( Now for anyone else reading this please note, I am answering a comment. I am not ranting on about Child Abuse again as some say i do. I am giving me viewpoint as an answer to Anna. Even though i know i will get accused of 'playing the same old record'. )

Now. You wrote. "The demand for those documents by Zalkin was a farce and was eventually overturned" 

So you are admitting 'those document 'exist. 

Are we talking here about twenty years worth of Child Abuse Accusations Documents concerning the USA ? 

Are we talking about Child Abuse accusations that were never reported to the Police ? 

In my honest opinion i don't think the American government or FBI give a damn. The JW Org is not a threat to them so they don't care. 

JW Org is in America still because America  is probably the best country for 'freedom' of religion. Basically they can almost say and do what they want in the USA. (Compare to Russia for instance).

But that is all besides the point.  Jesus said 'if they ask for your outer garment give them you inner garment also'  'If you are conscripted to walk a mile, then walk two miles'. In other words always give more than you have to. 

IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT WORLDLY LAW. It should be about serving God properly.  Can you not understand that ?

Well obviously the GB don't understand it... 

Your message was about one isolated case. I am talking about Earthwide. 

Here is a link which gives some info about what happened here in the UK. But you probably won't believe it. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/jehovahs-witnesses-charity-drops-attempts-to-block-abuse-inquiry

The JW Org here in the UK spent over two years trying to block the Charity Commission's investigation. WHY?

And then it seems it never was a 'full' investigation. So what did the JW Org hold back, we will probably never know. 

Again your write :- 

Trust me, the GB are not too frightened to cooperate with police and official bodies.

So why oh why don't they fully cooperate with all the investigations Earthwide ? 

I could write much more and probs' give you a hundred links, but it would serve no use. You think that your GB are wonderful men and serving God properly.  I think the opposite. We must just agree to differ.

And yes i am genuine.  

8 hours ago, Anna said:

I think you misunderstood. John Butler is saying that Jesus' true disciples were not pedophiles.

Thank you Anna 

15 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

It is quite some time since this statement was made by @Anna in answer to the original question raised (in her name). It seems to answer fairly adequately don't you think?

I mean you could get a little more generic and use the apostle John's words that apply across the board in principle:

"They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort." 1John 2:9.

This seems to have been confirmed by JB himself anyway

"I don't know who is for or against the JW Org and it's not important to me. I only know that, at this moment in time i cannot be part of it. ?"

 

Yes but the Apostle John wasn't talking pedophiles when he said 'they were not of our sort'. 

I am glad to be seen as 'not of the sort' that gave me reason to leave the JW Org.  

However I'm a bit surprised that the whole situation hasn't been sorted out yet. But that is mainly because the GB are too frightened to cooperate with Police and official bodies Earthwide. 

I suppose it will drag on well into next year, so Armageddon must be a long way away yet then.   

If the Org gets cleaned up properly and if it is of God's choosing then I would probably return. 

But it seems you are more concerned in shutting down this topic than i am. Especially after that sly comment.

NOTHING APPLIES  "ACROSS THE BOARD " when it come to reasons for people leaving the JW Org.

Each person will have their own personal reason for leaving. 

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

if i understand correctly.... SM not speak primarily to me but to background audience :)))

Yes i think he likes to look very intelligent and knowledgeable to everyone. However I'm not impressed. 

11 hours ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

I won’t post copyright material since the Watchtower hasn’t given me permission to post them unto a discussion forum. However, I will direct those interested to JW.org. But how can anyone that understands scripture possibly think that anyone would come to life after the 1000 year has ended? This makes no sense.

If people are to experience all that God promises and Jesus offered, all this would have to be completed before the 1000 years. Scripture doesn’t support anything else.

Other religions do make claims that go beyond scripture. They go to extremes to add to it, which is offensive to God. So, of course, witnesses should find themselves comparing scriptural interpretation. The best direction is to compare scripture as the first century Christians did through Christ. This is what the Watchtower set out to do and its purpose.

I think the JW teaching was that to 'come to life after the 1000 year' meant that before the final testing people would not definitely have eternal life. So the 'coming to life' didn't mean literally becoming alive, it meant that at that time they would receive everlasting life. 

Those of the heavenly calling 'came to life' when they were resurrected as spirit persons. Or will when they are 'called'. It seems that they do not have another testing but receive everlasting spirit life upon resurrection. 

11 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Why do you think I am called TrueTom?

Probably because you are looking for truth the same as i am  

No one pays attention to what is going on in the world.

I do, but it's difficult to get the truth about anything.  MSN news, BBC news, Russia Today ? news, but who is telling the truth ?

You have the Pope and the religion of Babylon seeking to united all religions into one fold.

Yes, but I've lost the track on this one. Haven't heard anything about it for months. 

The WT says the following, for this is but one of several: The need to be humble was repeatedly stressed by Jesus: Become like a little child; take a lowly seat at a banquet; when praying be like the lowly tax collector, not like the self-righteous Pharisee. Note also that a command to be humble served as the springboard for Jesus’ scathing denunciation of the proud and hypocritical religious leaders of his day. In striking contrast to their proud course was the humble course of Jesus, that of honoring God at all times: “I do nothing of my own initiative.” His very coming to earth as well as his entire earthly sojourn was a shining example of humility, as the apostle Paul so clearly shows at Philippians 2:5-8. Typical of Jesus’ humility was his willingness to wash the feet of his apostles.—Matt. 18:3, 4; Luke 14:7-11; 18:9-14; Matt. 23:12; John 8:28; 13:5.

They also have more to say,

So applying the expression to these two classes, it becomes understandable in all its different settings, and makes sense whether referring to situations in Israel in Jesus’ day among the Jews, or referring to the addition of Gentiles to the church class, or to conditions in Christendom in these last days. The exalted clergy class once thought to be first are abased to last, and humble ones abased to last God exalts to first position with him.—Luke 14:11.

SM will you please give me exact publications these quotes came from. Thank you. 

28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Controversial Posts, thee cometh here best be ready, Fir it is smite or be smited here.

In English, if I remember what the heading here use to be, something along the lines of you can be challenged or be put to task, something like that.

I see it just as that.

Yes i thought you didn't see it as a JW forum. So this is where we differ SM. 

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I suffer terribly when I hear a public talk in a monotonous hour log monotone, on "The Wonders of Creation", and the speaker does not know the difference between a planet, and a star .... and misquotes sources ...... or states how horrible, terrible and mean things have become, when in fact it is the best time in the history of Human Civilization. (so far!)

... and that statement can be supported by MOUNTIANS of hard, cold facts.

 

Probably the best time for the American and UK Armaments manufacturers and the greedy dishonest governments that gain from such, whilst pretending to be Christian. 

Probably the best time for drug growers and dealers on the black market. 

Probably the best time for homosexuals and lesbian / gay / transvestites etc as they have been 'liberated' and are now protected by law in many places. 

Probably ... oh I'll leave it there for now.  I'm sure you get my drift. 
 

So, to those that would criticize me for only talking about the JW Org, then it seems what i am doing is correct. 

As to whether you agree with my comments that is another matter. 

Thank you Admin for your comment especially this line.

"This club is about JW’s and @The Librarian is the main moderator."  

So, with no disrespect to a certain 'space traveller' my only interest in the issues I raise are JW's, JW Org, the Governing Body of same, the Child abuse problem within that Org and some of its teachings.

Those are the reasons I visit this forum. I do not wish to know what Muslims do, what Catholics do or what the rest of the world does.  

I do like it that Tom recognises that the JW Org 'bosses' are not happy with the congregants investigating / researching / enquiring for information or discussion outside of JW material. 

I would like to make something clear however. I do think the teaching programme / bible studies / door to door ministry are good ideas when done properly. So I am not wholeheartedly anti-JW Org as some may think. 

The problem begins when the GB / Org starts to misinterpret Bible teachings, and adding things to it. When it changes a meaning of a scripture three of more times over a few years, then it not only makes the GB and Org look silly, but it lessons the confidence that a person has in the GB being guided by God. And when it completely changes a viewpoint on something then one has to question any authority of the GB.

It would not have helped Noah if he was half way through building the Ark, then God said to him,  'Hang on Noah, something is wrong here, dimensions need altering, take it all apart and start again'. .... This is what the GB do, and they call it 'new light'.  

Hankulan, from what i have seen here, there are people that defend the JW Org as well as people that find fault with it.  And if you find that there are many others that criticize the JW Org, then ask yourself why are they doing so. Also, look deep into the allegations that i and others make, you may find that these allegations are true. Then you will have your reason as to why we make our comments.