JOHN BUTLER

This topic is aimed toward asking ADMIN these questions. I do not know who Admin are. Some folks here seem to have made friends with Admin where as I just use the forum. 

Why was Jehovah's Witnesses Private Club set up ?

Should it be 999% about Jehovah's Witnesses and their Organisation, which would include the GB ?

Am I therefore wrong when i only talk about Jehovah's Witnesses and have no interest in other religions ?

There are those on here that regularly 'bite my ears off' because i only talk about the JW's, but I thought that was the intention of this forum.

Admin please clarify these matters for me, please ...... 

Space Merchant. You are acting like a parrot. Have you ever been a Jehovah's Witness ? If not then you really have no idea of how it all works.

What you have is how it's written down and maybe how it should work.

But you are talking about ELDERS that only OBEY the GOVERNING BODY. The Elders are like robots, they do not think for themselves.

Why do you think some elders are leaving the JW org and becoming whistle blowers ? It's because they are sick of obeying the rotten rules laid down by the GB. Some actually get a conscience about 'trying to make the Org look clean' at the expense of Victims. 

I was with the JW Org from age of around 18 until January this year. In different congregations here in England as i moved around the country a bit. So I have experience of different congregations, not just one. In Reading near London for instance they are very materialistic... In Bristol they were quite snobbish.  Here in Devon they tried to make the country folk talk posher. That's just a few points. 

I know the JW Org as they are in Southern England UK. 

There is much more I could tell you, like the time an Elder threatened to have me disfellowshipped, but what's the point. You and people like you will only believe what you want to believe. 

CHILD ABUSE IS AN EARTHWIDE PROBLEM WITHIN THE JW ORG.

28 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

 I believe it is new.

it's on the website

I'll have to look at that, it should make 'interesting' reading. 

25 minutes ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

Anything having to deal with this world has become political. Even Christianity has become political. If you’re not part of this world, then why do you politicize this argument that by insisting on every thread.

I understand, what has been going on with the Watchtower, just like the Vatican and many more other sects within Christianity. I just don’t believe in singling out one group because of hatred.

So, please don’t start taking a tone with me, Bulter. If you don’t like my opinion. State your own then press on. I will not be bullied by you.

Ok if you want to take that attitude so be it. It says under your name 'Newbie'. Hence i was asking if you knew about such things.

Part of your previous comment says "is now occupied by moderate conservatives that adhere to the constitution rather than try to interpret the constitution. There is no doubt that many of these cases in the eyes of liberals, merit a distinct punishment." 

THAT is political. True Christians should not be involved in politics. As Jesus said "they are no part of the world just as I am no part of the world"  

And I will say to you what i say to others. This forum is Jehovah's Witnesses Public Club. It is not the Catholic club or the Protestant club etc. It is about JW Org. Hence I talk about JW Org. Doesn't that make sense to anyone here ? 

And for a final thing, if you think I have bullied you, my oh my, you must have led a sheltered life.  

1 hour ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

This will move to the appellate court then the Supreme Court, where in case anyone hasn’t noticed, is now occupied by moderate conservatives that adhere to the constitution rather than try to interpret the constitution.

There is no doubt that many of these cases in the eyes of liberals, merit a distinct punishment. Even within religious ranks, there are those that blame the heads rather than see reality for what it is. No one can predict what another human will do, and it is silly to think so.

When it comes to certain religions, as you can see, most news media attach extra meaning to make that religion look worse, even though the Catholic Church has been proven to hide pedophiles within their ranks, and have internal centers to subject those individuals to reform. I don’t know if the Watchtower harbors such a center. I have never heard of one.

This has been a conflict for scholars to debate. What sets the Watchtower apart from other religions? The most meaningful discussions come from the partisan understanding that witnesses are not converted to a sinless state for having become one.

The only reason the Watchtower should apologize if they read someone’s mind and didn’t report it to the authorities. However, they would still need to prove this supernatural phenomenon. ?

You seem to be coming at this from a political angle. Being English I have no idea of American politics, in fact I've no idea of politics at all as I'm no part of this world. 

Do you know anything about the rules the Governing Body had given to the Elders of congregations  concerning Child Abuse ?

Do you know that those rules have been slightly changed in 2017 and probably again since ? 

The Governing Body have at least twenty years worth of Child Abuse accusation documents concerning America alone. 

Do you know anything about the Australian Royal Commision, The Charity Commision here in the UK, the court cases in Canada, the organisation in the Netherlands for victims of child abuse in the JW org ? 

19 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

   These "Wolves in Sheeps Clothing" that abuse children came INTO the truth...as Wolves do...To..abuse children.  They just bided their time...waiting.   A "True" Christian of course, would never do such a thing.  Sign of the Times.   Jehovah IS "Cleaning Up"!   Trust in Jehovah with all your heart.   His "eyes" are everywhere.   He is not a God to be Mocked.

Judith, Judith, I cannot believe that you have written this. 

" Jehovah IS Cleaning Up " you say. But I've been saying that all along.  His eyes are everywhere. Yes of course. So why oh why does the GB think they can get away with the things they do ? Why have Elders thought they could get away with Child Abuse, and why have other Elders covered up for the pedophiles ?  

Oh dear more whitewash.

Does it clear your conscience Tom tom ?  Wow they obeyed the law on the 'world'. You think they deserve a prize ?

Um, the JW Org is supposed to be no part of the world, and yes even Jesus said to go the 'extra mile'. 

In cases of Child Abuse the law of the land should not even be a consideration.  Doing right in God's eyes, not the Organisation's eyes, not in the world's eyes, DOING RIGHT IN GOD'S EYES, is what is needed. .

 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.

So you've found a reporter that serves the Org well. Good for you. BUT it will never make the facts different. 

So where did your Ms Chuck get her information from, a JW I presume. 

The two witness rule is for internal use. yes everyone knows that, but it's that two witness rule that makes the BIG DIFFERENCE between the Elders believing a VICTIM or calling a VICTIM a LIAR. if the Elders by ONLY using the T W rule come to the conclusion that there is 'no case to answer', then the Victim is called a liar and is further victimized by congregants and Elders alike, with the fear of being disfellowshipped.

This two witness rule is the threat used by the Elders to stop Victims making a complaint against an Elder or adult for Child Abuse. 

One more very important point, which neither you or I can prove or disprove, but has been mentioned by many of the Victims Earthwide is, that Victims have been told NOT TO REPORT CHILD ABUSE TO THE POLICE. 

It makes no difference looking at the what the JW rules' say now. We are talking about over the past twenty years at least. 

You've written a lot here which you probably think go in the favour of the JW Org and its GB. How wrong you are. 

You have just proved how much the JW Org is part of the world. How much it uses the laws of the world, instead of relying on God's laws, which should be written on the heart. . There are so many scriptures that show how wrong the GB and the Org are in so many ways regarding Child Abuse, but it would be of no use. You want to continue to be blind so that you can pretend your conscience is clear. So that you can continue to serve you GB through your Elders. Why not think about actually serving God through Christ ?

As a sidetrack, I do not agree with massive 'payouts' to Victims, though i do agree they are due compensation. I also realise it is all big business for the lawyers / solicitors etc, which is just part of the world. But in my opinion it is God's way of cleaning out the Org. 

Are you going to write such long essays about every case Earthwide or it it that this one seems good to you ? 

1 hour ago, Paul Dedee said:

Atheism has been made to a religion. I believe your view extends through extremism as any other religion. The Watchtower holds the extremism of the first century Christian, as taught by Christ. Jesus went through what the Watchtower now goes through. I believe the message from Christ and the Apostles was to maintain faith with whatever came across as being tested.Atheism as you state fairs the same compulsion. This in itself does not condemn one entire group because of certain misguided views by certain people. If this was normal, then those people are positioning themselves as kings among men, as they cannot do this with God. Administrators also have a certain responsibility to allow all voices to we heard.

I’m afraid this has not been the case in this forum. This is why I reject the advice of TTH and will tread lightly as not to offend the owner, as some have seen fit to offend others without repercussions. I have kept an eye for a while enough to see the reality.

In my opinion, too much emphasis is being placed in one individual that is rallying to portray a certain religion in a negative way, when it can easily be said about any other religion. The truth of the matter is inertia.

This is why, a single unproven claim carries no lasting weight, not even when the chips are stacked up high.

That said, this is an open forum for all is it not? If not, then it should be set to private so only those the owner likes will be granted and set as a target for a specific audience.

 

This forum is entitled JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB. Does that not mean it is about JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ? 

I don't 'live' on here so I don't know, but have 'some voices' not been allowed to be heard ?

Admin is very kind to me I feel and have allowed me to express my feelings freely. 

And if I'm the 'one individual' you are talking about then just look at the heading of this topic. It's about me, though not of my making, but I'm not running away from it. 

Can we get something straight. Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation, governed by its Governing Body, say that they are the ONLY true Organisation that God is using to gather people together to be saved through Armageddon. The ONLY ARK like Org, the ONLY hope.

The GB therefore have to pretend that the JW Org is clean and pure. Well I'm proving that the JW Org is not clean and pure and that the GB do not have direction from God. 

What you or anyone else say about any other religion is not important here on this JW Forum.  JW's are not supposed to be compared with 'people of the world'. JW's are supposed to be as pure as they can be and serving God to the best of their ability. 

The only way JW's and the JW Org should be compared is to God's very high standards, NOT TO STANDARDS OF THE WORLD. 

You know, I will admit to not being the brightest light in the street but even i can understand what God is looking for. 

11 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"To survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now. As we saw earlier, those who survived Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. demonstrated beforehand their heartfelt rejection of wickedness and their devotion to pure worship. It is similar today. Before the destruction comes, individuals need to be “sighing and groaning”—deeply grieved at heart—over the wickedness of this world. And rather than hide their feelings, they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship. How can they do so? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is being done today, to continue putting on a Christlike personality, to get baptized in symbol of their dedication to Jehovah, and to support Christ’s brothers loyally. (Ezek. 9:4; Matt. 25:34-40; Eph. 4:22-24; 1 Pet. 3:21) Only those who pursue such a course now—and who enter the great tribulation as pure worshippers—will be in a position to be marked for survival."

Also from the same book. 

".... they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship ".

So the question to ask is, Where is this pure worship ? 

It certainly is not within the JW Org governed by the Governing Body. The GB have proved themselves false in so many ways.  

50 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Biblehub tells you the same thing, so it is not only a GB/JW thing: https://biblehub.com/luke/14-11.htm

Mr. Butler, before you say things like this, I suggest you do the research first.

If you thing this forums is out of line, give CSE a try, and even there if you say something about religion or the Bible you will be corrected with bricks upon bricks of factual information.

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/

The biblical hermeneutics section can grill you easy for they dissect anything and everything regarding the Bible.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/

Biblehub tells me nothing as I never even look at it, and basically I have no idea what it is. 

You seem to think you are the only one that knows anything and that you are always correct. 

If a man can see things with his own eyes does he need to do research ?  

This forum is enough and I have my own thoughts and don't need you to try to correct my every thought. 

Let's make this simple for you. The Governing Body are 8 men. Mostly American, mostly white. All the Elders of all the JW congregations serve the Governing Body to the extent of worshipping them.  The Elders have proved this by acting like puppets, following orders without question. 

The JW Org say that a person cannot serve God without being part of that Org. Where does the JW Org get this information from ? It gets it from the Governing Body.  Now I would think even you disagree with the Governing Body on that issue ?

So, I would be happy if you stopped trying to 'correct' me every time I comment. Please realise we have totally different opinions on most issues. Thankyou. 

Tom said : Â "Judith, I think John is just plain loony in his single-minded obsession over one and only one thing. "

Am i just loony for this one issue  ? 

 and the big baby just keeps saying hateful things about the Christian organization. ? Are you referring to me here Tom ? 

Since when has telling the truth been the same as 'saying hateful things' ? 

And the insult 'big baby' is so so Christian attitude isn't it ? 

Wake up and smell the coffee Tom, your JW Org is under deep scrutiny by God and by the people on this Earth. 

Remember God has very often used people of the world, to bring punishment on his own people. 

4 minutes ago, Judith Sweeney said:

 I know "attention seeking" when I see it.     I do not care that you "left"...>>>keep going.  Jesus Christ did not shove the message on anyone.   Geesh, how can you get any work done when you are on here all the time?   You are just trying to spread Venom.   Perhaps your seditionist attitude is Not the one that God Almighty Jehovah WANTS in His New System.  Hmmm?  

Oh dear Judith, throwing your rattles out of the pram .  As you should know i didn't start this topic. BUT I'm not going to run away from it. 

I should of course simply reply that i don't care what you think of feel. But hey that is not my nature. 

If you do not understand me fine, go and talk to other people that you find more agreeable.

To let this forum get you so uptight is such a shame. 

As for attention, I wish to draw attention, in a positive way,  to the Victims of Child Abuse and to the cause of that abuse in the JW Org. 

I wish to show up the GB for what they really are, the wicked slave class. 

And as for getting any work done.  My wife and i have been at a semi derelict mansion house (which i have the keys for)  most of the day dealing with an auctioneer that is to take the contents to auction for us. So I get plenty of work done. Another auction to lay out and lot up on Friday, Autojumble this time. Life is hectic Judith. This forum takes very little of my time. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Never did I dream that I would one day tussle with @admin. And now I see that I have erred in attributing to him what in actuality originated with the Librarian (the old hen).

I don't revel in the role. I am very grateful to both for providing a forum in which I could hone my writing skills. I have tried to repay both. Even though I put my stuff on my blog, some of the hottest items I also reproduce here. Even should there be a link within to my blog, I entertain no comments there, thus going there may even help the folks here, since if you want to beef about anything, you must do it here. I simply want to keep all my writing under one roof. I don't care if it also appears elsewhere. I make no money on it, and even the third ebook I wrote, ‘Dear Mr. Putin- JehovahÂ’s Witnesses Write Russia, with chapter 12 entitled ‘Pedophiles,Â’ is free. Should anyone want to ‘pay me,Â’ buy the other two. To date, the overall project is a money-loser, but that is not my chief concern.

I will further repay by raising a new topic that I have not raised before: "Is it Time for Jehovah's Witnesses to Apologize?" It will appear here very soon.

[Edit: Okay, here it is: 

 ]

I remember a song by a group name Plan B. 

It was entitled "Too late to Apologize"  Quite fitting i think. 

4 hours ago, admin said:

@JOHN BUTLER anytime you want me to lock and bury this topic feel free to ask. 

@The Librarian does sometimes create separate threads when he feels another has been hijacked. 

All is ok. Debate is good. Thankyou. 

The responses I get help me to evaluate myself and others. 

If however you think the topic has run its course and is getting stale, then close it if you wish. 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is a very good point. Recently I read a report of women who had been kidnapped by ISIS. They had been exhibited in cages, driven about in the back of trucks, raped any number of times at will by multiple men , burned with cigarette butts when they resisted. THESE are the people John’s lying new friends try to equate Witnesses with? C’mon! Even @admin will cease to think this an unseamly squabble between co-religionists and recognize it for what it is: Decent people that may not be his cup of tea, though decent nonetheless, under attack from the despicable.

John does have one genuine circumstance that, in some measure, excuses his unhinged hatred. He has written, here or on another thread, of a truly horrific childhood involving sexual abuse. It had nothing to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses, a faith he discovered much later. But it appears to have seared him permanently. To that extent, I can sympathize with him.

Wow Tom I get a 'bashing' and almost a' praising' from you. Thanks for being my judge and jury, I presume God gave you that job did he ?

Lets see now. You say I'm plain loony. Then you say i have some lying new friends. Anything else about me that i don't know ? 

You did note however that i have reason for my strong feelings in one regard. And you also noted that i did not start this topic. Thankyou. 

"... in his single-minded obsession over one and only one thing". Are,here is where you are wrong. BUT we are not supposed to mix issues on a topic. And it would mean starting so many topics for each subject, I honestly don't have the time. 

5 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

 Who cares what "john butler" does or says?  I cannot stand a cry baby.   All of his beesmerching of people who really Try to live according to the Bible and do the right thing, just insults the Faithful.  This especially insults the faithful who have been imprisoned and faced yes, even death to adhere to their faith.  

You are entitled to your opinion and thank you for adding it. 

I suppose all the Victims of Child Abuse in the JW Org are cry babies to you also. 

If all JW's 'tried to live according to the bible' then there would not be over twenty years worth of CHILD ABUSE  within the Org. 

I see you are using the devil's tactics, working on emotions. 

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

A little ‘gem’ from this week’s Bible reading:

John 11:21 “Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.”

Jesus had had two days advance notice, yet he just sat there. (vs 6) Martha did not have to respond as she did. Could she not have ‘gone apostate’ and yelled: ‘What in the world is wrong with you?! You might as well have killed him yourself!’

Oh dear here you go comparing your Governing Body with Jesus Christ. So you think your GB can resurrect people from the dead do you ?

Martha knew exactly who Jesus was. That scripture proves that fact. 

Your GB say that they are important, exalting themselves, and we know what Luke 14 v 11 says about those that exalt themselves don't we ? 

It does however show how far off line you are when you compare the GB to Jesus. 

Jesus proved many times that he had his Father's approval. I doubt the GB of JW Org having such, not the way that are acting. 

just another thought, I pray to God through Jesus Christ, do you pray through your GB ? 

11 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

Then you can understand what nonsense is. In all fairness, that can be ascertained by an opposing view. As for Jesus being offensive, he was a perfect man and a symbol for the truth, whereas you are not. So, there is no comparison to the behavior you are applying for the truth as you see it. Jesus experience is documented in scripture. Is yours?

But, it seems that’s where the line is drawn with some people when insults without provocation lead them to automatically assume right (truth) is on their side.

Perhaps you can be civil with your response, and not show hatred upon your fellow man just because there is no redemption through them. The owner is correct to suggest, people like yourself should move on, and find a religion you can accept to worship God and Christ the correct way. None of the arguments posted are noteworthy in Christian life, and I believe that is a road you seek.

I think you deliberately misquote or miss the point of my comments.

The point wasn't that Jesus 'was' offensive. The point was that the Pharisees didn't like the truth from Jesus, so the Pharisees found the truth from Jesus to be offensive.

However Paul, keep on keeping on as you seem to enjoy it. 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Honestly, John, I don't know why you act as though I am your adversary. Have I not stated that they wet themselves at the thought an elder may glower at them?

I will go further to confess what I have never confessed before. Our BOE used to rent a prison bus to round up the publishers and make them go to the convention. They made me drive. I didn't want to, but they made me. Also, when they told me I had to drive, they made me applaud their words until I thought my hands would fall off. 

They publishers didn't want to go. None of them did. They used to hide in the bushes when they saw me pulling up in the prison bus. But the elders had ordered me to stuff them in nice clothes by force when necessary. Oh, how my conscience torments me not. I hate them I hate them I hate them

That's nothing! I have seen children actually confined in oversized parrot cages until they finished studying their lessons, at which time, if they were lucky, they might be fed a cracker.

Mr Tom you are a comedian through and through. But of course you do it to undermine the points i make.

Turn something serious into a joke and some people may just follow you and dismiss my comments as not important.

Well I'm not affected by it as I am pleased with myself for making things known.

What people do with true information is up to them. 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

..very funny but a little silly to ask such.  If John Butler in his trying to imitate Jesus sometimes compare own acts with that of Jesus, what is bad in that? Many christian people doing the same, even JW members doing the same on global scale (Conventions for example)

If some JW or fading JW or exJW came to this or that conclusions (wrong, right, questionable, too intensive) on some issues, that is quite normal for every human. The day will come when person maybe change his thoughts in some other direction. 

I ask my self sometimes also, Why i participate in discussions like this one on this forum. I will never come back to JWorg so why i have to or need to involved myself in this. Maybe 40+ years in this religion is reason. Or i need more time to cut all mental and emotional  connections, nexus and memories. Must be a process. Something else, perhaps my profile make me to act in this manner. World is bigger than me and bigger than WT. Life is around us and will be without me and without WTJWorg too.

I hope i will lose interest on JW subject and get some life that is somewhere here, but i have to find this space/time dimension :))))))))) and Shuttle rocket. What you think, is there hope for me? :))))) 

     

Srecko, never say never. Do not shut any doors and do not burn any bridges. Just imagine if the JW Org did get cleaned up by God. Imagine that God removed the GB for misconduct. Imagine that  God removed all the wicked Elders and replaced the GB and the bad Elders with honest hearted ones. You and i could return to the Org with a clear conscience. And with God's mercy and guidance of his holy spirit, we may even make it through Armageddon. Never give up hope Strecko. No one knows who will live or die. 

2 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

On the heels of a $35 million jury award to a woman who alleged the congregation mishandled her childhood abuse, other survivors say there's a pattern of cover-ups.

She was 14, and at first, the attention felt innocent — like any other friendly interaction Moriah Smith had with fellow Jehovah's Witnesses during worship meetings.

Smith didn't think anything of the casual conversations she was having with Elihu Rodriguez, a 25-year-old man in her Seattle-area congregation. When he started giving her gifts, like new clothing and a cell phone, Smith — who was taught through her religion that sex is only between a husband and wife — did not think she was being groomed for sexual abuse.

Smith says it was in October 2012, five days before her 15th birthday, that Rodriguez had sex with her in the bedroom of the house she lived in with her father, a respected Jehovah's Witness elder. More sexual abuse followed for the next three months, she said. Ridden by panic attacks but ashamed and confused by what was happening, Smith didn't tell anyone, including her family, what was going on.

"I didn't understand anything really about sex," Smith, now 20, said. "I also had the fear of disappointing God. Not only that, but I could potentially be shunned."

The following year, Smith moved to Fairfield, Washington. Although she still did not feel comfortable disclosing to her parents — who she says did ultimately cut off contact with her when they found out years later what she endured in her prior congregation — she worked up the courage to report it to three elders at the Fairfield Kingdom Hall.

The elders "basically told me that it was my fault. They told me that I wasn't sorry enough to God for what I had done," said Smith, who has since left the religion and works in the Spokane, Washington, area as an administrative assistant at a private medical company. "They talked about putting Jehovah first, putting God first in your life, and I wasn't, apparently, doing that to their standards."

How the Jehovah's Witnesses handle sex abuse claims

In the tight-knit Jehovah's Witness community, outsiders, including authorities, are often viewed suspiciously, according to religious scholars. As a result, accusations of any sort between members of the congregation are typically first dealt with through an internal judicial process — one that requires two witnesses to a crime to prove guilt, a tenet that's in keeping with the Witnesses' strict, often literal interpretation of the Bible.

The religion's handling of abuse claims has recently come under fire. In the past decade, there have been at least 30 lawsuits nationwide against the organization arising from its responses to childhood sex abuse, and a jury award of $35 million on Sept. 26 to a Montana woman who claimed the congregation covered up the abuse she suffered at the hands of a congregation member as a child put a rare spotlight on the insular religion.

In Smith's case, she said the elders she reported to privately reproved her, Jehovah's Witnesses' quiet way of denying wrongdoers in the congregation of certain privileges. Rodriguez was not punished, she said.

"They had used the Bible to victim-shame me for what I had done, and they never did anything to him."

"They had used the Bible to victim-shame me for what I had done, and they never did anything to him," Smith said. "He got married, and he remained within the congregation — a child molester living among them."

Smith's allegations led to charges against Rodriguez. NBC News verified the details of her claims through charging documents filed in King County Superior Court in Washington in July; in addition to rape of a child in the third degree for what allegedly happened with Smith, Rodriguez was also charged with rape of a child in the second degree involving a 12- or 13-year-old Jehovah's Witness girl he allegedly had a relationship with around the same time.

When reached by phone, Rodriguez repeatedly told NBC News that he had no comment. He has not entered a plea in the case.

The Office of Public Information at the World Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses responded to last month's Montana jury verdict with a brief statement that said Jehovah's Witnesses "abhor child abuse and strive to protect children from such acts," while adding it planned to appeal the $35 million fine.

Photographs of Moriah Smith's grandparents, (from left) her mother, her brother and her father, sit on a table at her house near a memento signifying the date of her baptism into the Jehovah's Witnesses faith in 2011. Rajah Bose / for NBC News

In response to questions from NBC News about what happened to Smith, Fairfield Kingdom Hall did not return a request for comment, and the Office of Public Information at the World Headquarters said in an email that "it would be inappropriate for us to comment on specific cases."

It directed NBC News to its "scripturally based position on child protection," a two-page document on its website that intersperses Biblical references with denouncements of child abuse and outlines how the congregation aims to protect its children.

"When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason," says one bullet point in the document.

Smith says that kind of protection was never offered in her case. Even worse, when she finally told her family a couple of years later that she had been in a sexual relationship with an older man at age 14, she says they accused her of flirting, and have since stopped talking to her because they view her as a "spiritual threat" to their own commitment to their faith.

"They were willing to turn their back on their own child to pursue a religion rather than support their own child," she said.

'There's no list of questions or protocols'

Other former Jehovah's Witnesses say they have experienced a pattern of covering up abuse to protect the religion's reputation dating back decades.

"There's no list of questions or protocols. These men are literally flying by the seat of their pants. They're not cops or welfare workers," said William Bowen, a former elder who now serves as an expert witness on how Jehovah's Witnesses operate with respect to allegations of sexual abuse. Bowen is also the national director of Silentlambs, a victims' support group where abuse survivors who have gotten kicked out of the religion anonymously share their stories. He says he has collected more than 1,000 stories on the website since he started it in 2001.

Chessa Manion, 29, describes the abuse she saw within the religious organization as "systemic." She says she was raped by the teenage son of an elder in 1994 in Illinois when she was five years old, and when her parents told elders what had happened, their response was: "Let bygones be bygones for Jehovah's sake. Don't ruin his name by taking this public."

"I feel that their first interest is not for the victim. It's for themselves," Manion said. "It's really this culture of silencing and of cleaning things up and of tolerance."

'This is not tolerable in a civilized society'

Smith's attorney, Irwin Zalkin, whose San Diego law firm has been litigating against Jehovah's Witnesses across the country for nearly two decades, expects to file a civil lawsuit in the coming month on her behalf.

He says the suit will claim negligence on the part of Jehovah's Witnesses for how they process child sex abuse claims such as Smith's. It will seek financial compensation and an overhaul of the religion's response to victims.

"At some point, they have to understand that this is not tolerable in a civilized society," Zalkin said. "She was the was the one who they, in essence, prosecuted."

Smith said she hopes that by taking legal action, she will prevent what happened to her from happening to other Jehovah's Witness children.

"It is absolutely an environment where the abuser is set up to abuse again," she said. "They are putting children at risk all the time because of the lack of action on the part of the organization. They do not have things in place to get these dangerous people out of the midst of their children."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jehovah-s-witnesses-use-bible-victim-shame-sex-abuse-survivor-n916326

Yes, this type of report will come up time and time again but the JW puppets will not believe it, ever.

Of course the Elder puppets know it's all true but they keep it all secret as far as possible. 

People like Tom tom, and others that think the GB and the Org are wonderful. 

Let's get to the nitty gritty. THE GOVERNING BODY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THE RULES. THEREFORE THE GOVERNING BODY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THIS ABUSE BECAUSE OF THE RULES THEY HAVE MADE. 

Unless that GB are removed and replaced then the JW org has no chance in being clean. 

What does the scripture say.  That Wicked slave will be thrown out into the street and that is where the gnashing of his teeth will be. 

Well soon may it happen to them. 

 

Someone once suggested that the Org uses brothers and sisters to build Kingdom halls for 'free' labour, then the Org sells the halls. 

I do know that Kingdom Halls are being sold here in the UK, and that more congregations are being 'pushed' in to less halls. This of course means that congregants have to travel further and for longer to get to every meeting. 

There are lots of older and infirm people in the Org now and it is difficult for them to travel, however the Org refuses to own and use minibuses to transport its own people. 

As for the above I do hope it's not true. The GB has enough problems already. 

I loved her singing and have many of her records. I'm a Soul, Motown and Reggae fan. Well my teens were the 1960's.

How worldly of me  

18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You know, you may have a point. I have looked closely at these times and I can tell that they don’t want to applaud. They REALLY REALLY DON’T want to applaud. But then they notice an elder glowering at them and sweat breaks out on their brow. In some cases, they pee their pants. In the end, even though they hate the thought, they clap and clap and clap. Sometimes their hands turn to mush and the paramedics have to haul them away for first aid.

I mean, it is possible to overplay the paranoia card, John.

They applaud because they liked the program and appreciate the work of those that put it together.

Tom i know you are quite funny at times, but I think you seem to want to forget that 

I HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE ALL THAT.  It's hype. They are conditioned to 'like the programme'. We were all expected to applaud. 

I know that you don't want to believe that teenagers are almost 'dragged' to assemblies, or bribed by having special clothes (that the teens want) bought for them. Hence the way some teens are dressed at assemblies, it's the only way they would agree to go there.  

That kids are ordered to answer up in Watchtower studies and made to pre-study for hours and write down long answers, which in truth they don't even understand. They just answer parrot fashion. And kids are made to do the field service, ordered by parents to do it.

Kids are even told to get baptised by their parents, and it seems to be getting younger every year. Jesus was 30 years old. 

Hence many teenagers, when they leave school, leave home asap, to get away from the orders of their parents...

Have you not noticed any of that ?   

But please do remember that I HAVE BEEN THERE AND SEEN IT ALL. It is not something I've read in a newspaper or seen on the 'web'. 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Apostates and loyal ones unite! At last we have found common cause! Let us band together and beat up @admin, who presumes to break up our riotous party! If we want to ruin his website, what's that to him? I will even be gracious and concede that you guys won a round. You correctly predicted that he would 'lose it' on a weekend. I could have sworn it would have been on a weekday. 

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness. They are all 'rouge' to one degree of another, myself included. They all have their own individual reasons for being here, as do I. None of them are heeding the Witness organizations' preference not to engage in disputes with determined opposers.

Witnesses are encouraged by their organization not to dispute. 'Put your version of truth out there, and if they reject it, they reject it.' Whatever one may think about Witnesses, one must concede that they endeavor to present their message with dignity, whether it be door-to-door, their website, or the recent innovations of 'cart witnessing.' The dignity all shreds when they come here and similar places (there are actually very few where both sides mix together - you can take a bow for hosting I think the most prominent one) which is why the organization prefers they stay away.

There is a WT study today that I am sure Jack Ryan will start a thread on, if he hasn't already, about internet sources reporting on Witnesses and how it is best not to get carried away by what they may say, since they generally present 'distorted facts,' the germ of which is not untrue, necessarily but 'distorted.' It will be Jack's turn to 'lose it' over this. is the Watchtower wrong not to comment specifically on this or that news report? Many charge that. But since polls consistently show that trust in the media is abysmal and that people take for granted that they are often inaccurate, they tend to say 'why go there?'

They encourage their people to 'persuade,' but not 'debate. They encourage them to follow the example of Jesus, who routinely did things that would infuriate any devotee of debate. He continually answered questions with counter-questions. He raised many a straw man argument. ('gaining context', it used to be called) He spun complex parables that he rarely explained. Let the heart figure it out.

What! Is it cheap entertainment we are speaking of? Jesus said religious truth would be 'the pearl of great price' that you must 'exert yourself vigorously' to lay hold of. He didn't say it was a fine thing to sit on your butt and wait for the 'winner' of a debate to toss it to you. Debate invariably focuses attention, not on the merits of any given idea, but on the skill of the debater. In debate school, one is taught to argue both sides of a given argument. That fact ought to suffice to assess 'debate' as a way to arrive at truth. 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness.

What is a typical Witness ? 

You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?'

Yes it's all puppet fashion and tradition. It is so corny. It is the expected thing, so they have to do it. 

But they are your typical Witnesses. They live in a bubble. They spend all their time together, do everything together, and never really look at the outside world. They never ask questions. They just obey orders. They believe what today's Watchtower orders them to believe. They are frightened to question the Elders and definitely much to scared to question the Governing Body.  Fear of being shunned drives them onward. It may not be seen from the outside, but it's there.