JOHN BUTLER

I quite love how, even though I explain my self fully in English everyone should be able to understand, people still love to misquote me or to pretend that I've said something. 

An example here. 

This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry.

What utter nonsense. I have love for God and His son Jesus Christ. I would not blame either for the way people act. 

However, I do question people that pretend to be receiving direct instruction from either of those, from above. Especially when they get things all wrong, and also mistreat the ones they are supposed to be helping. 

 "...they find your attacks offensive... " Well the Pharisees found Jesus offensive too. Truth very often hurts. 

The Russians must have found the Witnesses offensive, they banned them and stole all of their property I believe. 

So it is, life goes on. 

My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to...”

Sounds like the GB of JW Org Tom. They have definitely proven false in their actions and words. 

4 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

In my opinion, should this be a correct understanding that the majority in this world that is atheist have no compulsion for religion, then you as the administrator also need to understand the need to allow those in favor or opposition to freely state their opinion without this administration picking sides.

Your statement is quite clear. Then honor your own words by allowing comments such as Bulter to be presented, and if there is an opposing view, allow that presentation to be placed. A neutral observer is what is claimed here.

As a business, that allows a discussion needs to be free to all, not just a selected few. Another observation would be, the use of certain material that goes beyond what the law allows for a debate. A discussion board can have a certain responsibility to eliminate such information from being abused. as seen with commenter witness.

This website seems to be a news outlet. An interesting site that I receive world news. Therefore, precautions would be recommended.

Now, the post “Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses” Trademark

Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness.   Wt 15/4/15

Does it really matter why this individual left? There are no restrictions made for any individual to stay. That organization is not Scientology that obligates their members to stay. The Bible states free will and choice.

Whatever the motives are for an individual to leave, if it has nothing to do with breaking God’s scripted laws, then to each its own. If an individual wishes to criticize any religion, they have free reign. But, those individuals need to understand, an opposing point of view can be freely made as well. That’s how democracy works in the United States.

I hope this observation doesn’t disqualify me from making future comments.

I will say, it’s refreshing to hear from the owner to stabilize an environment that can become continuous very quickly, Thank you.

Paul, I do not know which side of the 'table' you are coming from but I must pick up on one point.

You wrote : Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The scriptures you have noted here do not, i repeat, do not back up your comment.

Yes Spiritual Israel are the anointed ones, I agree. BUT you have no proof that 'They are assembled in the Watchtower' I am presuming you mean the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Run by the GB of the JW Org. 

The GB have proved themselves to be the wicked slave class not the faithful one. 

Does it really matter why this individual left? YES. I need people to know that I have left the JW Org because of the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem earthwide. And i need people to know that I still love God and Jesus Christ. And I am still looking for a way to serve God properly. 

If people realise that I am not critical for the sake of being critical then they might just take me seriously and my comments then could help others. 

I have hope for the JW Org, but my hope would involve the removal of the GB and it seems that could only be arranged 'from above'. God will do whatever He pleases, for whatever reason He sees fit. He will work through His son Jesus Christ. 

If i am to be condemned at Armageddon then so be it, but until that time arrives i will continue to search for a true way to serve God properly. 

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Words you mentioned as "pejorative" and "labels" are just words. With words we differentiate things and we give them meaning. In reality, there are no bad words or pejorative, insulting words. There are people, groups of people who give their own new meaning when they apply it to other people or groups of people.

Some word is not obscene or insulting because it consists of certain letters. There is a street words for a sex organ, and there is a medical word for the same thing. None of them is rude. Because they actually mark the same thing.

An example is the word "apostate". It is used in certain circles (such as WTJWorg) to mark people who are members of the JW community but have different religious ideas. And some of these "apostates" remain within the JW community and some leave.
This forum meets people of different religious thoughts, beliefs, belongings. This group on this forum could be called the "interfaith group". :)))

The intention here is not to unite all of these people into a multi-faith community, but to represent, defend, challenge religious ideas. 

Many of the used words are not the fabrication of the one who writes them, but are in use for a long time. Those involved in the discussion know what they are talking about.

Of course, the words that was apply in text can hurt the feelings of the other. But sometimes this can not be avoided no matter how much an author of the text seeks to be objective .... or unwilling to be.

The fact we living in 21 century does not exclude, not canceled, does not delete important fact that is reason for division - there are always Us and Them. Unfortunately, Nobody can Change This "Primitivism". (even this word "primitivism" has at least two different labels, connotations  :))))

Very well written, Fabulous comment. Thank you. 

28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

@JOHN BUTLER But hen others speak to truth you turn and do the same. That being said, this specific forum, originally was Controversial Post, come here at your own risk and speak to defend, something of that sort, I think Allen quoted it before it was changed. But still it is in application here.

Apostate is Apostate, those who do not adhere to God, those who think they know God but twist the word into something accursed. Such ones tend to go to the extreme and even become highly disgruntled, those who do not are subtle in their words and actions only to attempt to do some critical damage to a person and or group and or community.

Also this is a forum, Admins can do whatever they please in this sense, you are only a child, playing in their playground, as is the rest of us. If they say something it is by their word and they can remove you from the playground without fail if need be - as is the case with so and so who goes by many names and faces.

12 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

 

Be cautious and evaluate, yes of course. 

But not be blind or pretend not to see the truth about the JW Org. 

Unless you too are saying all the Child Abuse Victims are telling lies. Are you ? 

I agree with the Proverbs scripture, but the naive ones are the JW congregants that believe every word of the GB. 

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 

Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 

And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 

As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 

Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 

I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

If the Bible is the only collection of writings that is inspired by God, then all other writings are from the world or of 'man's thinking', or worse from the devil.

I think the Bible talks of the Spiritual man verses the Physical man. 1 Corinthians 2 v 12 -15.

T¹²  Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God,m so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. ¹³  These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom,n but with those taught by the spirit,oas we explain* spiritual matters with spiritual words.¹⁴  But a physical man does not accept* the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. ¹⁵  However, the spiritual man examines all things,p but he himself is not examined by any man.

So therefore to examine the truth from God we only need God's written word, which we examine through prayer and the help of the holy spirit.. 

52 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

Paragraph 6 of this week Watchtower:

“6 We need to be especially cautious when we come across reports regarding JehovahÂ’s people. Never forget that Satan is the accuser of GodÂ’s faithful servants. (Rev. 12:10) Therefore, Jesus warned that opposers would “lyingly say every sort of wicked thing” against us. (Matt. 5:11) If we take that warning seriously, we will not be shocked when we hear outrageous statements about JehovahÂ’s people.”

Yes the GB of the JW Org are constantly calling the Victims of Child Abuse liars. 

The GB tell the Elders to use the Two Witness rule to pretend the Victims are liars. 

The GB though are the liars. They say it is ok for the Elders to tell lies as it is Spiritual warfare. 

Quite funny how they are trying to protect themselves here by pretending that everyone else is lying. 

However when these reports of Child Abuse / Pedophilia are Earthwide and in great quantity, it would be unwise to turn a blind eye to it all. If the GB and JW org are as innocent as they pretend why would they fear the congregants investigating it a litte.

40 minutes ago, admin said:

I would just like to state for the record that as the owner of this website... I do not like pejorative labels.

LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.

I realize that all you different religions are free to exercise what you believe in.....

however I would like to push MY OWN POINT of thought that we ALL should try to stop using labels on people.

I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

 

And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.

They have MOVED ON.....

Try to keep up people.

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.

- End of rant.

p.s. - I still use the label SPAMMERS in a pejorative sense. Nobody is perfect. 

I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

Well this is the Jehovah's Witnesses Public club and that organisation still uses the word Apostate. Hence one reason you see it on here.

JW Org and it's GB are basically an antiquated religion in that way. They see it that by pinning such a label on someone then no one else in the Org will talk to them. It works too, none of them locally talk to me. 

That means of course that all the knowledge I've gained by my research, i cannot pass on to others. But my conscience is clear as I've tried to tell others but they would not listen. 

It's difficult to converse with someone about the JW Org, that hasn't been a JW. You have to have been there type of thing. 

Ecclesiastes 12 v 12.  

"As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh".

So , it seems in God's eyes we may only need His written word the Bible. 

If you understood me you would know that I seek truth as to how I should serve God. 

Yes I do get a bit 'upset' at times, but I'm human, a sinner like everyone. 

I could come back to other points but it would only be going round in circles. 

Just a couple of points Space Merchant. 

If Hitler had made a comment i thought was true, I would back up the comment, not the man.

If Srecko makes a comment which I agree with I will say that i agree with that comment.. I will judge the comment not the man or woman making it. I will also not go back ten pages to look for other comments they have made. 

I have in fact felt this  "stubborn and persistent"  attitude against me on here, but I'm not moved by it. 

Space Merchant says : "But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure..." 

Um, go to the very top of the page. Read what this site is all about . JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB.  Then look at the topic heading Jehovah's witnesses ..... Armageddon. What makes THEM  think it will still happen ? It is about the Jehovah's witnesses, not about the Church structure or the early church. 

OK not a suit but it is 'White man's clothing' 'Western culture' or what ever you want to name it. 

12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If according to you we must adhere to the topic, then why in God's name would you mention this here in this same thread about dress code?

 Â On 10/1/2018 at 12:30 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

'homosexuality' and 'masterbation with a pillow'.?

So if you have to stop someone, in this case, @TrueTomHarley, check thyself before ye wreck'th thyself because you hit that same road yourself in this sense, in the same topic. The only reason I made response was due to what is said, hence the mention of pillows, take it up with the anti-masturbation Christian community, because I told you before, what you said about masturbation, they didn't take kindly to it, I'd post the comments regarding that, but this is of dress code and such.

That being said, back on task here, every culture and or group of people have their own clothing that makes up of where they are from. Regardless, they still hit the modest dress code, as it is not too far off from that in the US and or elsewhere, for even for them, something that is immodest, they will take issue with it.

As last time I checked, also, you do not see people wear suit and ties in a shanty town or rural village, the major will most likely stick to modest clothing in their village.

Also I haven't see anywhere of a response from Ryan regarding Nationalistic Pride. This, of which was claimed - has yet to be seen.

22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No you don’t 

He is even wrong here:

’Tom's next statement is so much a blanket statement that i would have thought it was beneath him.’

If it was really a blanket, it would be on top of me.

A lot of things are that way with our apostates: completely upside down.

 

As it happened I didn't win anything at the auction so didn't have to go. So I edited the comment a bit after.

But if that is the  best reply you can come up with i can see why you are still a JW, a non thinking machine. 

Try a bit harder Tom, at least try to show some intelligence. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Okay, we have reached the point where discussion starts to fragment and can go in that direction for a time until the Librarian (the old hen) looks up from her bottle and charges over to scream at her pupils turned unruly. Let’s branch into something closely related about our ‘apostates.’

While they may not be lazy, they certainly are deceitful. They push for all it is worth the idea that all you have to do is disagree with the GB and you will be expelled! Well, what do they disagree with them ABOUT? It’s amazing how many of them go on to embrace the homosexual lifestyle or become activists in this or that aspect of the greater world, newly determined to fix whatever they think is wrong with it. 

Essentially, they don’t like the idea that Christians should be separate from the world. That is being ‘insular’, they charge, which has become the greatest of all sins. It’s not exactly a ‘gentleman’s disagreement’ that can’t even be tolerated, as they charge.

In fact, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses disagree with this or that aspect of theocracy. But they also put it in perspective. They know that in any organized arrangement there will be some things that don’t go your way. They also are modest enough to know that maybe it is they themselves who are wrong. In fact, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses disagree with this or that aspect of theocracy.But they also put it in perspective. They know that in any organized arrangement there will be some things that don’t go your way. They also are modest enough to know that maybe it is they themselves who are wrong. We are, after all, being taught by Jehovah . Everyone knows from Day 1 God does not run it as a democracy.

I'll agree this topic has certainly gone way off line but I didn't start it and I don't want the limelight, even though some may think i do.

The word Apostate just means someone that has turned away from their former religion. So the disciples were in fact Apostates to the Jewish religion.  But the JW Org seem to want it to mean, someone who has turned against God and Jesus Christ.

Hence the JW Org love the word Apostate as it serves as ammunition for them to dislike / not talk to former Witnesses. A rather sad situation but that's as it is.

Tom has made a number of sweeping statements or suggestions or implications here, some of which hold water others not.

I'll agree with Tom that the 'homosexual lifestyle' is something that some ex JW's  turn to. I was very disappointed with the 'protests' in London earlier this year, outside of JW conventions. I'm glad I was not any part of those protests. One particular homoseual showing off and becoming 'famous' amongst the protesters. Yuk.

Tom's next statement is so much a blanket statement that i would have thought it was beneath him.

"Essentially, they don’t like the idea that Christians should be separate from the world". Really Tom ? And you have spoken to so many of them in person have you about this issue ?  Remember you are talking about apostates. People that have turned away from their former religion, not turned away from God or Christ........ 

There are so many things in your last paragraph that try to once again blanket over all, that it is laughable. 

1. Theocracy. Where is your proof of it ?  Catholics could say the same sentence that you have written.

In fact, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses / Catholics / Protestants  disagree with this or that aspect of theocracy. Is it so funny.

Unless you can prove without doubt, that the JW Org and it's Governing Body are being directly guided by God through Jesus Christ, then what you are  saying means nothing. 

2.  "We are after all being taught by Jehovah".  Sweeping statement with again no proof.

Tom, we come back to,  'Can you prove the GB are the Faithful and discreet slave ?' Can you prove they are getting direct information from Jehovah ? If not then your above statement is at best a guess. 

Oh, and back to the beginning of your comment. 

"They push for all it is worth the idea that all you have to do is disagree with the GB and you will be expelled!"

Um, my brother is an Elder in a congregation here in England and he agrees with me that if you ask to many questions and if you disagree with the GB, you can and probably will be disfellowshipped for, "Causing a division within the congregation". 

Hence I left before making any statements to anyone. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Even there they were not heedless of personal appearance, and it’s not because they were terrified of the GB, either.

Who inspected the tightness of their trousers ?  No one. 

Who asked them if they masterbated and told them not to ? No one.

There were more important issues then. 

It seems as if there are no really important issues now, so the GB are making things up to keep themselves  busy. 

1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

It’s all in the wrist! This is why reason and wisdom come with understanding. Who gives us that understanding, Academia? Jesus never went to school to learn scripture. Academic Teachers? The Pharisees knew the laws. Therefore, what was the point of just knowing the laws? The term practice what you preach sounds reasonable. Romans 12:8-10

Acts 1:8 King James Version (KJV)

⁸ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Luke 24:45-49 King James Version (KJV)⁴⁵ Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

⁴⁶ And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

⁴⁷ And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

⁴⁸ And ye are witnesses of these things.

⁴⁹ And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

 

And your point is ?

Please don't just slap scriptures all over the screen like 'Gone Away' does. 

It means nothing. It proves nothing. It is not helpful in any way. 

I'm sure even the Pope could quote scripture. 

18 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

No threats. However, I do find the hostility against the GB tantalizing. The Watchtower has proven to show through their articles throughout the decades to show just that Butler. Caring and being responsible for our children. You just refuse to acknowledge the myriad of things published in the magazines. It’s like being tone deaf. However, any time you want to look at the articles, feel free to enter JW.org for honesty and truth.

You are also correct, The GB is there to receive God’s message not a court of law.

But since you continue to insinuate about child abuse, then looking at it by your perspective, WE are all GUILTY, including you Butler, since no one has the ability to read minds like Srecko mentioned. Therefore, it falls own all of us in order for the blame game to be effective.

 

This topic is about Armageddon, will it won't it happen ?  I get moaned at for not keeping on topic. 

Therefore if I reply to your comment I will get shot up by the World News Media police. They seem to love to bully only me in this regard. 

I am actually a 'member' of the JW org web page, with log in details etc. As for it being 'honesty and truth' well that is up to each of us to decide if we believe that.  

I also studied last Sunday's study article in the W/T, which i found amusing. Even though my wife is told by the Elders not to talk to me about spiritual things, as she is not baptised it not for the Elders to decide, so we still converse about such matters. 

Concerning the Child abuse issue, I would love to discuss this but it would probably need to be elsewhere or a new topic. 

As you say, WE are all guilty. That was why I left the Org, so as not to be guilty. But I must leave it there for fear of being shot down. 

1 minute ago, Gone Away said:

"Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know that the kindly [quality] of God is trying to lead you to repentance?" Rom.2:4.

You are strange. You keep changing direction. It's probs' better i just ignore you. 

You just pick out random scripture for the sake of trying to look clever. You prove nothing.

Gone away, yes you should have, long ago. 

35 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

What makes you think the wheels are not turning only because it’s not satisfactory to your own perceived timeline? God’s timeline cannot be questioned by mere mortals. That doesn’t mean a lot hasn’t happened since 1914.

 

Former witnesses that NEVER received enlightenment will never understand. So, why ask the question. However, those that scuff at the GB as though their opinion matters receive less enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.

 

Therefore, for nostalgic purposes, PROVE nothing has happened?

 

Keep in mind the Watchtower is NOW! Enforcing their copyright material, and this website has been added to that list of violating copyright material. Since this site is far from being academic, and laughable to think so, STOP! Infringing on copyright material.

 

 

The Watchtower will also prevent their copyright material to be archived on other websites that are NOT their own. Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you are making threats, and proves the WT are getting to be more a part of the world than ever. 

The GB should give more of it's time to worrying about a more important type of violation, that of children. 

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

When they offer to release you from the concentration camp if you will but renounce your faith and you tell them no, it means you are bold.

it also means you are unafraid of actual extermination, let alone the silly things that you whine on about.

Don’t go there, John. They are bold. Someday you might learn from them.

Now you are being more precise. Your previous comment was more general. 

You are using a type of emotional blackmail to try to prove a point which is off topic anyway. 

JW Dress Rules is the topic, not, being in a concentration camp. 

5 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

We seem to have established that the Bible was only written for "the man of God" (as previously posted and referenced by 2Tim 3:16) and as an answer to the original question.

We could probably add Jesus' own words here in view of your statement, so there is no confusion as to who decides who is "the man of God" for whom the Bible was specifically written:

"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him" John 6:44

"No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." John 6:65.

Doesn't God draw each one of us ? But if you read those scripture in context they do not answer my questions.

But I'm not after a sparring contest, I'm just looking for true answers.

15 hours ago, Gone Away said:

By we, do you mean you? And if you have made a judgement, why don't you run with it? Or are you unable to let go of the hand that used to feed you?

We seem to have established that the Bible was only written for "the man of God" so the question seems to have been answered.

But the 'man of God' is each individual, not the GB of the JW Org.

So unless you love following blindly, as it seems you do, then you, along with everyone would need to make their own judgement as to who is leading us to God through christ. 

8 hours ago, Anna said:

I find this a very interesting topic. I have often wondered that too. One definitely needs holy spirit to understand the Bible, and Jehovah does not give his spirit to just anyone. Then there is the FDS who is supposed to be feeding the flock at the proper time. To me this means that they distribute timely counsel from the Bible, that fits the needs of people living in the time of the end. I don't think it means that they get bogged down with complex Biblical explanations like it was done in the past with types and antitypes etc. and re invent the Bible. We have definitely gone away from that. And we (the FDS) really don't know everything. In fact Br. Herd admitted in one of his broadcasting talks "we are just scratching the surface". 

There is no "magic" to how the FDS decide on some scriptural interpretation. There is no direct special communication from Jesus. Jesus and Jehovah communicate trough the Bible.  Br.Jackson gave insight into how the GB arrive at decision.  I would write more but I am really busy now until next week, so I will try and pick up the thread then.

Yes Anna but, did the Governing Body give themselves the name 'Faithful and discreet slave' and if so what gave them the right to do so ? 

And then the GB said only they, those 8 men, are that 'slave', not all of the anointed. How can they judge this ? You are saying they are not inspired and there is no direct communication from 'above'. 

Plus all the things I've spoken about previously, which erk some folks, seem to make it clear that the GB are not treating the congregants in a loving way. Remember 'By their works you will know them'. 

It would have probably been easier for me to stay in the Org, keep my head down, and not to think, just obey.. That is how i see JW's acting. But is that what Jehovah and Jesus Christ really truly want people to be like ? Blind obedience ?