JOHN BUTLER

11 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

You sure about that? Jesus had entrusted those of the church to carry out the teachings and his disciples did just that, and it continued on as they took the lead, and there are those who continue for them and the cycle continues into this day and age.

It comes down to who is applying what is true and who is not, and only a few do what is true while others do not.

This is why I can say, and or the Muslims can say, that not many Christians are aware of the Apostolic Church and the people who make up the stones of this church.

Shouldn't be that hard to trace back your roots as a Christian, I mean, it's that clear.

OH yes so clear. So clear, that there are hundreds if not thousands of so called Christian denominations earthwide. 

The JW's being one of the smallest. 

As for your comment "It comes down to who is applying what is true and who is not, and only a few do what is true while others do not".

So, you can name who is doing what is true can you ? You can say what is truth and what is not can you ?  

From an historic standpoint it might be easier, but for knowing who God is using to give the true direction now, can you tell me ?

Can you say this 'sect' or that 'denomination' are telling complete truth ?  Can you know for sure who has God's blessing ?

If you can truthfully answer all of this then God must be blessing you far more that he blesses many. 

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

‘People who think the most bold of thoughts have no difficulty conforming to the outward norms of society.Â’  Nathaniel Hawthorne 

Nobody thinks thoughts more bold than JehovahÂ’s Witnesses.

He didnÂ’t say it but I think the converse is also true: Those who declare their independence over such small matters are usually the most conformist of all on large ones.

Not me Tom I'm a rebel.  Always have been.  I think of Nathanael "Can anything good come out of Nazareth ? " He must have been a bit if a rebel.

As for JW's thinking bold thoughts, that's a laugh. JW's are not allowed to think, they just follow orders the same way as soldiers or police officers. 

Orders come from HQ, GB, via Elders. ' You must obey, or be, exterminated exterminated exterminated. 

The whole thing is so funny. That is why JW's are not allowed to talk to any one that leaves the Org, because the one that has left is free to ask questions but those that remain are not. The GB doesn't want JW's to actually start thinking. 

35 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Funny eh? "Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand."

Ah, but we have to judge or we could just as easily follow the Pope or Archbishop. People hang on their every word.

'By their works you will know them', yes that's for sure. The GB have certainly proved not to be the Faithful and discreet slave  .

25 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

If you can't see it then................. you can't see it. Jesus' words don't always make sense to everyone actually.

You are a joker. If you think you can apply Jesus' words to the GB then you too deliberately sin by going 'beyond the things written'. . 

My goodness how the JW Org corrupts some people.  I would laugh about it but it is such an insult to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. 

These guys go totally off topic but I don't mind it takes the heat off me for a while.  

 

41 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

"My sheep know me.........."

"They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Should be self-explantory.

Got to go for now.  ?
 

You talk in riddles, well rubbish actually. 

I'm talking about the GB of the JW Org, you are quoting Jesus' words. There is no connection.

21 hours ago, Gone Away said:

I stand by what I said. We are well equipped enough to balance the counsel at Acts 17:11; 1John 4:1; in discerning the value of the food that is distributed. Ps.4:4 and Pro.14:28 help us in how we handle those matters which need adjustment  The judging of who and who isn't living up to their assigned duties is in the hands of "the master".

In light of Jesus words at John 10:14, and with full confidence in the basis for Jehovah's promise at 2Tim.2:19, I think it is possible to handle appropriately any issue in connection with our ongoing development in understanding and applying the word of God. 

We will have to agree to differ but I did find your last scripture funny in as  much as it finishes with “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.” 

If only the GB would obey scripture ....... 

1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am like Moses, man of few words, not know how to talking. Even in my Croatian language i spending day in less talking than other people. In English i have problem with grammar and structuring Croatian way of sentences to English way. ;)))

So, please accept my  apologize for that. This is me, ....you can kill me but this is me :)))))

You do ok. Do not worry about those that have no fellow feeling. Some of us show love, some don't. 

I'm English and all I can speak and write is English, so you are doing better than me. 

19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Well, how to make a dog's breakfast out of a basic statement???

Let's untangle this. Let's speak about you. As you have used the personal pronoun "I", "you" features in my response. 

If "you" say something wrong unintentionally, thinking sincerely "you" are right, then this means "you" are not deliberately sinning. It means "you" have made a mistake, misunderstood a matter, made a decision with insufficient or incorrect data etc.

Your point here: "You gave reasoning, I am not deliberately sinning and not made sin" is a distortion of what I said. A statement was made by @John Butler proposing that if the GB endorse something which later is found to be incorrect, this must be deliberate sinning. My response was that this is not sinning as such (deliberate) but is more correctly termed and evaluated as a mistake as described above. A mistake of this type can certainly be termed a"sin" in the sense that it "misses the mark" of truth. But it is not deliberate.

I will not go to such lengths to untangle reasoning of this type in the future, so, respectfully, I request that you give a little more thought to your reponses. ?

 

 

 

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves,  and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning...  

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?  Matthew 24 v 45.

But another point has just appeared to me. The above scripture is from Matthew. The below scripture is from Luke. Do you notice a difference ?

 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?    Luke 12 v 42.

The Matthew scripture is past tense, the Luke scripture is future tense. 

But my original point on this issue was that the GB make it known as 'fact' that they have this responsibility, and only those 8 men, no one else. But they prove themselves false because the 'food' they supply in not true food.

18 hours ago, Anna said:

The last person who was inspired by God or Jesus was the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos, when he wrote Revelation. 

 

 

Was John not inspired at Ephesus when he wrote his other writings then, two years later  (1,2,3, John)   ?  

37 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you are correct, to a point. 

The law was not abolished, it serves as a measuring stick to show us exactly where we fall short. We are not stoned to death any longer for serious sins, but it does not diminish the fact that serious sins are committed. 

Matthew 5:17&18  "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

 

¹⁷  “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.z ¹⁸  Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.

Different translation. This is the, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The JW Bible.

But Jesus did fulfil the Law. It was 'accomplished' or it 'took place'. 

It was there to show the Jews how sinful they were, and to prepare the way for Christ.  

It was never there to judge anyone other than the Nation of Israel. 

If a person lives under Law they do not live by Faith in God's mercy, for the law was a curse. Galatians 3 v 10 & 13

¹⁰  All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.”

¹³  Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And how many pages and pages did it take for you to finally admit that I was exactly right about Sarah and the Terminator?

If you didn’t obfuscate so much, youÂ’d have an answer to every one of your petulant questions by now.

Do you think that you are the only one? If someone so much as farts at Bethel, Jack starts a thread on it, and I have to answer that, too, donÂ’t I?

And don’t forget my latest project: upvoting @Annaand then downvoting her for the same comment on another forum. And then I have to deal with John demanding why I am doing it? Is he crazy? It is like the eggheads at (disgraced) Bill Cosby’s old high school running around saying ‘Why is there air?’ Only the gym teacher knew the answer. ‘There’s air to blow up volleyballs and footballs and basketballs!

You are funny but you do write such twaddle sometimes  

However I still don't comprehend this Anna up/down thing . 

4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Not if they believe what they say. Getting something wrong is not a sin as such. Everybody makes mistakes. I have never subscribed to a GB inspired club.

Armageddon will always be a few years/months (etc) off until it comes. The important thing is to keep in expectation of it, which (for me) means "get your priorities right".  One old brother said to me many years ago "your armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah". I found that a very useful viewpoint and consequently (since then), I have avoided "end-time frothing" . By "end-time frothing", I mean emotional debate about the end being near, taking too long, not coming as expected, being falsely predicted, not coming at all....etc.etc.etc.

The whole point of the excercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come so that it doesn't come as a shock when this old world's structure is no more. Of course that includes making use of the world as it is now, but not to the full. 

Armageddon will only be an account, not an experience, for the majority of humans in the future. So it's significance is not human-centric.

So are you saying the GB are not inspired by God or Jesus Christ when they make predictions ? 

Again, are you saying that the GB are not inspired at all ? 

Are you in effect saying the GB are not the 'faithful and discreet slave' ? 

I did like the way you slipped in the bit about "...being falsely predicted.."

Um, who actually did the false predicting ?

Was it perchance the Governing Body of the JW Org and/or the Bible students before them ? 

And your bit about : "The whole point of the exercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come... "

Wouldn't it be lovely if the whole earthwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses did that. 

3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Two points.

1. The assessment of the "slave" to be "faithful and discreet" lies entirely in the hands of "the master". 

2. The "appointment" of the slave to their role of food distribution also lies entirely in the hands of "the master".

Just a simple consideration of the literal way Jesus handled food distribution through his disciples when feeding the crowds miraculously will give us the sense of how this occurs.

The important thing for "the domestics" is that the food is distributed, and that it is eaten by those for whom it is intended, not who it is that does the distributing.

"The master" is quite capable of dealing with his "slaves" if there is to be any question regarding their faithfulness or discretion. 

I entirely agree with your last sentence and that is what I am hoping will happen very soon. 

Remember that the scripture says at Luke 12 v 45 & 46. :-

But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’n and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk,o ⁴⁶  the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones.

I am hoping that the GB will be removed from the JW Org and replaced by honest hearted ones. 

But your illustration concerning Jesus and his disciples brings up other issues. In that case the people could easily see who Jesus was using to help him feed the crowd. It was clearly visible to the eyes. And the food was proven to be good food too.

However, it is not so easy for anyone to see who is chosen to distribute the spiritual food at this time. And also to know if the food distributed actually is approved of by God or Jesus Christ. 

Add to this that those who give themselves the title of 'Faithful and discreet slave' actually judge others of the anointed. And that the food they give is often withdrawn by them later, because it is not good food at all. It is proved to be poison. 

'The important thing for "the domestics" is that the food is distributed'

Is it ? Or is it that the food is truthful and correct and that it does actually come from the Master and not men's own thinking. 

Seems like this topic just dried up and didn't get an answer.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that the sins of the fathers will fall upon the children ?

I think we are a long way from Armageddon yet but there must still be millions that have not heard the Good News. 

It does seem to go against Jehovah's loving ways to kill innocent people, but in honesty who are we to judge ? 

I don't think Armageddon will be as horrific as the JW Org has made out in the past. After all, it's purpose is to remove the wicked not to torture people. 

People have often asked, 'What about the mentally ill who cannot understand God's message ?' 

Well it's God's plan of action to remove the wicked, not to remove or kill those who cannot understand. I think God will show great mercy to many. 

I'm sure many JW's have heard the old story about when they 'arrive' in the New world. 

Each will be saying 'How did so and so get through' and the one they are talking about will be saying likewise about the other one. 

Let us not judge each other, and let us not presume that we know God's plans completely. 

Jehovah, working through His son Jesus Christ, will make perfect judgement on us all. 

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

8 hours ago, Witness said:

Until he is reinstated to commit the same horrendous crime, again.

"On June 16, 2005, the elders reinstated Reyes in the congregation at his request. Alexis Nunez, then an 8-year-old girl, would later tell the elders he sexually assaulted her on a near-weekly basis for the next two years."

https://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/montana-jehovah-s-witness-sex-abuse-case-underscores-church-s/article_fddc41e5-536b-5843-af30-200cc14892d8.html

 

One case of many that have now been reported and proved true. But still the blind JW's don't believe any of it. 

52 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

 

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

 

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

54 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Can't see a scriptural support for this observation.

No, in principle. However, we would would need to agree that the "chosen ones" would need to be living up to that choice.

Invaluable counsel from God 's word.

If we were all inspired of God and all had the same communication with God via Jesus Christ then why would we need a 'faithful and discreet slave' to 'feed us the right food at the proper time' ?  We could all get fed directly from God via Christ. 

However the GB claim to be the only ones capable of feeding us in the proper way, as they say that they (those 8 men) are the only 'Faithful and discreet slave'. 

Quote : "However, we would would need to agree that the "chosen ones" would need to be living up to that choice".

Do you mean that they would need to be deserving of such true communication ? 

27 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

God does not give wrong information. Nobody disputes this surely?

Exactly. So if the Governing Body of the JW Org are what they say they are (the faithful and discreet slave) then why do they give false information to the congregation ? 

Surely that is deliberate sin.

4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Seems there must be. It's definitely not for everyone, despite it's availability:

2 Tim 3:16-17. "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,  so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

Dan. 12:9-10. "Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.

Ps.25:14 "The intimacy with Jehovah belongs to those fearful of him, also his covenant, to cause them to know it"

Those that study God's word deeply can get the sense of a lot of it. 

But, as you have quoted from Timothy, 'All scripture is inspired of God'. But not all humans are inspired of God to understand it fully.

From the 'Bible Students' onward predictions based on scripture have proven false. The GB have written books that can now be shown to either be mistakes or lies. Would God really give false information to his 'chosen ones' ? 

And the Bible also says at Psalm 146 V 3 

Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 

So we go back to square one. Is there really a 'body of people' being truly guided and upbuilt by God's holy spirit at this time ? 

And how do we know who they are ? 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am a little worried that admin or someone will start a topic entitled ‘Why TrueTom did not leave Jehovah’s Witnesses.’ Then I will feel obligated to write pages and pages and pages of pure brilliance and I simply do not have the time.

Wouldn't take much space to say 'Because True Tom is a puppet of the Org and does not ask questions or think for himself'. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Hey, you know what might be fun? Let’s upvote @Anna for a comment on this forum and then downvote her for the same comment on another forum!

Explain in detail please and then explain how it is connected to this topic. 

33 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, this was idea for some time. After they wrote how specific Hebrew word "yom" can mean undefined, unknown period of time that can last more then 7000 years. I think in Creation book  was (blue book) first time talking about this "new" teaching.

But despite to this revelation about "yom" in Genesis book, WT still standing in interpretation how Adam and Eve as first human on Earth come to existence before only 6000 years ... and few years more (if we count from 1975 till today). 

In this we can see some disharmony, about this two Bible reports, in WT explanations and interpretations about when first human came to existence and how old is Earth, Solar system, Universe. 

Science said one thing and WT something different or not incorporate scientific knowledge and information's in religious teaching of the JW Church.

Yes, my point was that if the Governing Body have always been the 'faithful and discreet slave' why would God have given them the wrong information ? 

And, if the GB have been proven wrong on such issues, how can anyone trust them now and in the future ? 

I have always wondered if the Bible is for 'all of us' to understand fully, or if it's only for a chosen few to fully understand.

I don't mean is it just for one 'religion' to understand, I mean is it just for say 'an anointed group of people to understand'? 

Jesus spoke in illustrations to the people, but the disciples asked Jesus what the illustrations meant. Then Jesus would explain the illustration to them fully. 

Jesus told his disciples that 'to them the sacred secrets would be revealed' but that the crowd would not get the meaning of such things. 

It was also that after Jesus was resurrected he opened the eyes of his disciples / apostles so that they began to fully understand all things.

For my part I would never expect to fully understand God's word the Bible. A lot of it is straight forward of course, and easy to comprehend.

But I think a lot of it is 'in deep code' so to speak, only fully understood by those that Jehovah chooses.. 

It still seems strange to me, but it would be a separate topic, that God allows it to be so difficult for people to find any truth amongst the huge amount of lies in 'religion'. 

However, in my opinion, there has to be a 'group of humans' 'anointed people' that do have some direct contact with God, through Jesus Christ. 

We no longer have 'miracles' being done in Christ's name, so it is difficult to know exactly who the 'chosen ones' are. 

If there was a 'body of people' that could prove that they had God's approval and God's holy spirit, that would make life much easier. 

However when those that say they are chosen either make mistakes or tell lies about the meaning of scripture, and then their predictions fail, then they seem to prove themselves false or without God's guidance.

So we go back to square one. Is there really a 'body of people' being truly guided and upbuilt by God's holy spirit at this time ? 

Is the Bible and it's prophecies being fully opened up to such ones ?