JOHN BUTLER

He is from "everlasting to everlasting" which can only happen in a universe that has no beginning, and where time happens all at once.
Well I presume God created time as we know it. It is only 'as we know it' because 'man' has divided it and subdivided it, but before man started measuring it, it was happening. It's quite strange to think that before time, before Earth etc, there was God, the Word, the Angels living in another dimension. 

I also have a great love for Humanity ... but often its PEOPLE I CAN'T STAND !
I have gotten over it ... but for many years well after I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses ... everytime I heard or read the word "Japanese", I thought "Atomic Bombs!"

Certainly there is free will ... all you can manage in whatever its is that is your hearts desire .... for good .... for evil ... or for misadventure.
I used to jump out of perfectly good aircraft, KNOWING in less that two minutes I could be dead .... but I did it anyway.
EVERYONE has freedom of will .... if they can manage it.
NOBODY has freedom of consequences, unless it is pure, dumb luck.

I am just doing this from memory, but if memory serves ... Satan was cast down to the VICINITY of the Earth.
Jehovah does not live in this Universe, current best guess being about 30 billion light years in diameter, and expanding.
Simply put ... Jehovah lives in a non-"arrow of time" Universe on the "other side" of the Big Bang.
He is from "everlasting to everlasting" which can only happen in a universe that has no beginning, and where time happens all at once.
That means that "Earth" is to be thought of as "dirt", or physical things, as found on a Periodic Table, not the planet.
EVERYTHING you see in the night sky, and everything that can be seen, is "Earth", where we do or someday MIGHT live.
Jehovah lives in "Heaven", which has a completely different set of physics.
Time operates completely different on the other side of the "Big Bang".  OTHERWISE ... Jehovah had a beginning.
A good thought experiment is this:  If mankind had bases on Jupiter's moons, or had mining operations in the Asteroid Belt ... would they be out of Satan's sphere of influence?
Obviously not ... and mankind has already been to the Moon, many times, and we have about 9 robots running around on Mars.
Notice I base these arguments on reason and logic, and solid reality .... in order not to get into a "dueling banjos/dueling scriptures" scenario where a rebuttal would tour the Multiverses, but not address what is actually being said, here by me.

One more thing makes this Authorization and Transfer of Power complex.  
In Romans we have:  For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.              In Colossians we have: For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.  He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 
By this verses, and perhaps some more, we see how He, Jesus Already has ALL Power and Authority from some far point in the past time ( Day One or similar) much before (long ago) any sort of rebellion described in Scriptures. 
Well here arise another question about voluntarily made decision of giving up of Own Authority (from The Word  aka First Born, Jesus) and His permission that His Power, Authority over All Things will be given to The Third in Hierarchy (i guess third) even in limited scale.    

I do often wonder why God would cast the Devil down to the Earth.  Surely there were plenty of other places God could have put the Devil. 
Then you get this thing about free will. But there is no free will. Because you either serve God or you are serving the Devil. 
But it is strange that God loves humans but he sends down a 'roaring lion' to devour us. 

I have question: In what moment, period of time and under what circumstances was all this authority handed to devil? Next is: what "all" in fact means, to what extension, to what level? 
Does this quote, made by satan and written by human (under inspiration), suggest how Almighty God HANDED His Own Authority (full or partial) to devil?? In other words, does JHVH with all knowledge about future and people, humankind, gave to satan licence to deceive, to torture, to kill, to ruin and to destroy life and everything else on Earth, as he wish and like ??!! In case of Job He done exactly that (except death).   
In next step we have another quote made by Jesus and written by human (under inspiration) - 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.  
WTJWORG confirming doctrine how devil has all Power and Kingship over all Earth, Kingdoms and people, also above angels in heaven, and it seems, my opinion, also Universe space, partially or somehow else. At least, satan was in the Heaven with his influence in spiritual space and perhaps physical space too, until famous year 1914.  
It is interesting how this verses about Power over Earth, and Heaven, were written in similar time in two gospels. By that this two Sons were/are Two Kings over same Things. If so, idea how Jesus began to be King in 1914 is not in harmony with his claim about:  All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 
In both cases, about wording "authority", something missing. About what sort of authority is about? And for what period of time?
By this two Bible verses it looks how One Father gave same or similar Authority to both of His Sons ??!! Does someone have some thoughts about it? :)) 

If "loose conduct" is a fuzzy, nebulous "what the hell does THAT mean?" phrase ... the term "brazen conduct"" although it MAY be more accurate ( and I am NOT conceding that ...) is an even MORE fuzzy, nebulous "what the hell does THAT mean?" phrase
It can even be bent into a pretzels shape to persecute  any behavior that someone else does not like .... BUT EVEN MORE DANGEROUS ...can be bent into a pretzel to persecute what someone else THINKS, and discusses.
If anyone at Bethel is monitoring these discussions ... and I am reasonably sure someone is ... please consider this a request for solid, unambiguous clarification in the Watchtower, as to whether this applies to intellectual discussion and beliefs ... and DEFINE how this word is GOING TO BE USED IN OUR GOVERNANCE.
.... besides .. you have been out of new topics for a VERY long time ...
I remember an old movie, set in medieval times, with Omar Sharif as the main character ... and someone asked his character if there really was such a thing as witches?
His reply was (paraphrased ...) "I hope so, because we burn 16,000 a year to death, here in Germany."
 
 
 
 

Definitions vary from time to time, and place to place ....... and whether or not an otherwise very fine Elder has a Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome Flashback, of when he was humiliated in Mrs. Grundy's Math Class in the 7th grade, and made him sit in the corner wearing a dunce cap, and he cried, and everybody laughed at him, and he wet his pants, and they had to call his mother to pick him up from school ..... at the same time you are bouncing off of him this new idea you just had about something-or-another theological in nature, and you used unapproved words, and previously Society unapproved concepts.
The next thing you know, you are in "Room 101" defending yourself from a Tribunal of Judges who accuse you of brazenly apostatizing to an Elder.
THAT's why we need to have a complete and direct and comprehensive definition as to how the Society sees the word BRAZEN ... it looks like they have run out of material, anyway.
A LONG time ago, but more particularly since they are not making up stuff about Armageddon's timetable, and types/anti-types, anymore.
A whole Watchtower, or perhaps just 18 paragraphs, if the explanation does not try to recount the history of every other word that also starts with a "B", to fill up all 18 paragraphs.
 

Inside WTJWRG Institution one thing is of crucial importance. Who are those people who have authorization to govern, rule, lead this organization and people who are members/believers? Who are those people who represent JHVH and Jesus and their Will?
In this WT article authors tried to explain history of this.  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-february-2017/who-is-leading-gods-people-today/
Why this article is interesting (again) in connection to topic? Here is some quotes from pages of this article:
CAN YOU EXPLAIN?
In the first century and today, how have those taking the lead among God’s people been . . .
empowered by holy spirit?
assisted by angels?
guided by God’s Word?
.... Jesus had given his followers a commission: “You will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8) How could they possibly complete that assignment? True, Jesus had assured them that they would soon receive holy spirit. (Acts 1:5) Still, an international preaching campaign required direction and organization. To direct and organize his people in ancient times, Jehovah used visible representatives.
Famous paragraph 12:  The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. 
As we can see from box in WT magazine under question Can you explain? author AVOID to use direct word "Inspired" and instead this explicit sort of spirit manifestation as it is commonly viewed while reading Bible (for example, to write holy scriptures, to tell something as prophecy or command from God, to heal the sick....etc) author put word - empowered by HS. And now author give factual example from 1 century:  
Holy spirit was poured out on all anointed Christians, but it specifically enabled the apostles and other elders in Jerusalem to fulfill their role as overseers. For example, in 49 C.E., holy spirit guided the governing body to make a decision regarding the issue of circumcision. 
Author highlights 2 things. First is ROLE of OVERSEEING. And second is about MAKING DECISIONS. In contrast or continuation to this  1 century example, author of article later emphasized this:  
In 1919, three years after Brother Russell’s death, Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave.” For what purpose? To give his domestics “food at the proper time.” (Matt. 24:45)......
Evidence of holy spirit. The holy spirit has helped the Governing Body to grasp Scriptural truths not previously understood. For example, reflect on the list of beliefs clarified that was referred to in the preceding paragraph. Surely, no human deserves credit for discovering and explaining these “deep things of God”! (Read 1 Corinthians 2:10.)
Here we have just statements of author who firmly say that FDS aka GB been appointed by Jesus in 1919. But another thing is something what call on more alarm. As Evidence of holy spirit is, situation when this Body grasp something as Truth under holy spirit helping or empowering. 
In this explanation one thing is very questionable and somehow danger. In period from 1919 (we shall not talking about 1 century GB or about Angel Assistance today) this entity who "share" food under title: Bible Truth, with supposed help of holy spirit, in fact they had  spread "Fake Truths", they later changed into "Real Truths".  Some doctrines they  produced in few steps as yes-no-yes ... truths. Here we comes to possible conclusion how reason for that errors, according to this article, was not in Human Representatives of Jesus here on Earth. No, reason and cause for that is in holy spirit who has "empowered" them in that confusing way and direction.
Because other two elements in this equation (assisted by angels +  guided by God’s Word) was not been sufficient and powerful enough to correct wrong direction made by empowering influence of holy spirit. :)))) 
Here we see how "blame" for errors and imperfect food can be found in the same reasons why food can be good and eatable too, after some period of time (in refrigerator :))), of course. The way how this article try to prove the credibility of GB for task of sharing the food,  becomes nonsensical.
But, pay attention to this: 
empowered =
having the official authority or freedom to do something  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/empowered
having the knowledge, confidence, means, or ability to do things or make decisions for oneself                       https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empowered 
Here we see how this definition changed our view on issue and article. Why they used word EMPOWERED in connection to spiritual food? In fact, according to Dictionaries, WT magazine talk about Power of GB Over People. Here it is not ISSUE about Food Quality, Truth or Lie, Perfection or Imperfection. IT IS ALL ABOUT CONTROL.  

Truth isn't for everyone.
Very true. Truth is not for the GB of JW Org that's for sure. 
If you study topics on here you will see, amongst the  'sarcasm and agendas', that there is a lot of serious conversation.
Quote "People cannot act decent.'   Are you blind to the Child Sexual Abuse within the JW Org / Watchtower ? 
Now then tell me, people cannot act decent.  And that is inside the Org. 
 

Truth isn't for everyone.
Very true. Truth is not for the GB of JW Org that's for sure. 
If you study topics on here you will see, amongst the  'sarcasm and agendas', that there is a lot of serious conversation.
Quote "People cannot act decent.'   Are you blind to the Child Sexual Abuse within the JW Org / Watchtower ? 
Now then tell me, people cannot act decent.  And that is inside the Org. 
 

Truth isn't for everyone.
Very true. Truth is not for the GB of JW Org that's for sure. 
If you study topics on here you will see, amongst the  'sarcasm and agendas', that there is a lot of serious conversation.
Quote "People cannot act decent.'   Are you blind to the Child Sexual Abuse within the JW Org / Watchtower ? 
Now then tell me, people cannot act decent.  And that is inside the Org. 
 

THAT ... passes the "smell test".  It makes good common sense.
Still, I would like the Society to expound and codify it.
To protect the innocent from being caught in the Dragnet of a witch hunt for foggery and mopery, with smoke and mirrors. 
The G.B., and Elders almost always have the very best of motives, but not always.
Also, motives, and competence are two entirely different things.
Just WANTING to do what is right is not enough ...
Ever read the book "The Peter Principle"?
EVERYONE eventually can get promoted, based on merit to a level where they are no longer competent.
A stellar Ministerial Servant becoming an Elder, can become a Beserker, through incompetence, with the very best of heart condition and motivation. Occasionally, you will find one as dumb as a stick, who understands NOTHING, not written in stone.
...that's why God used to write things in stone!
The issue has been ignored for almost ten years now.
 

I don't think they "enjoy" doing wrong ... it's just that they have fallen into the trap that EVERY shamen, witch doctor, priest, or respected religious leader falls into when they start accumulating money, real estate, and camera time.
That's what that job does to people.
In the entire history of the human existence of directly created Man, in over six thousand years, and from sea to shining sea, there has only been ONE exception.
 

An example is this Satan's statement recorded here:
"So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time.  Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."
Luke 4:4-6
 

Just as the word "Gay" means something COMPLETELY different than when you and I were growing up ... perhaps the word back then meant something like urinating in public, or dressing in such a way that was immodest if one was incontinent.
With our track record of being right about such things, it may have originally meant anything at all EXCEPT what the Society officially tells us is the case.

We seem to have world class problems understanding the simplest common sense things .... like what a "Generation" is. Everyone else on the planet uses ONE definition, and always has ... except us.
I cannot even imagine the Apostles understanding what Jesus said the way we are told to.
That's why I want the GB "OFFICIAL" explanation, which may or may not have anything at all with standard definitions, common sense, or reality. 
They really ought to tell us what definitions we are actually using to make determinations of what is, and what is not "brazen conduct", so that the excesses that all humans are subject to do not cause irreparable harm when being applied ... because we are being governed BY AND WITH those definitions.
This is NOT a new issue ... and REMAINS unresolved, since 2010, almost a decade ago.
Historically, the record of "straight shooting", and accountability has been terrible.

The way things are progressing, I wonder when they select a new member of the Governing Body, the "Helpers" will have white smoke come out of that Watchtower at the main entrance of Warwick Bethel ?.....

The Society never apologizes for anything they totally screw up ....  and to the best of my knowledge, NEVER has apologized for anything in ruining peoples' lives, historically,  .... because they can just change the definitions of what words mean ("new light"), or where it is to their advantage to do so to push the agenda,  keep them so ambiguous, they can mean ANYTHING.
Here is the test (and perhaps I am wrong because I missed it somewhere along the line ... please correct me if I am wrong ....):
How EXACTLY does the Society define "Brazen Conduct"?
What is included?
What is excluded?
How about ten or so REAL WORLD, CONTEMPORARY unambiguous examples?
To the best of my knowledge ... currently it can include anything the Elders don't like.
If I am wrong, please point it out to me, and I will change my viewpoint, and embarrassed, beg your humble pardon.
I think we need an 18 paragraph unambiguous, non touchy-freely and non scripturally recursive,  direct and comprehensive Watchtower Article on this ONE topic only .... instead of the usual circular logic topics reiterated, over, and over, and over, and over ...
...and over and over and over and over.
I am sure I would stay Awake!, for THAT one.
 
 

I did not agree with all of your post, where I quoted from you the above comment ... but I "upvoted" it anyway, because I know your quoted cringeworthy statement is true.
... just any JW try it at the next Watchtower Study.
.... raise your hand and ask a tough question, using unapproved words.
.... after the meeting, you would have to get back to the parking lot through infamous "ROOM 101".
This was first "legally" established in the not-so Super Secret 2010 Elders' Handbook, with the  term "Brazen" conduct, which was a catch-all that could include ANYTHING ..... and when it hit the fan that there was no Biblical backup for this,  three years later the 2013 "Silver Sword" NWT came out with the word "Brazen" several times ... WITH THE WHOLE BIBLE PARAPHRASED, of all things ... THE WHOLE BIBLE "SIMPLIFIED" ... to back up  the direction given three years earlier.

... ever notice that the Popes all look all worn out and hunched over, threatening to fall and impale themselves on their bejeweled  gold sheep catcher sticks ?
... makes me tired just watching !
It's the 30 pounds of clothes, the 8 pound gold crosses, and 15 pound two-story hats glued on with denture cream..
...  a lot for ANY 82 year olds.
Seven more pounds  .. same as a bag of concrete!

I never thought of the WTB&TS as having a hierarchy ... the thought never crossed my mind ... perhaps because they did not have the clown suits that the Catholic Church, Russian Orthodox Church, and many others have .... until:
1.) In several court transcripts where the Society was confiscating real estate from local congregations, and the congregations sued the Society, the Watchtower Lawyers declared and asserted under oath that no individual person owned the Kingdom Halls, and that they had the right to appoint and remove trustees in whose positions the Kingdom Halls were titled, BECAUSE, the Organization WAS a hierarchy, EXACTLY like the Catholic Church, and that the "Church" owned all Jehovah's Witnesses'  property, everywhere,  no matter whose name it was in, or how it was titled, and,
2.)  In child sexual abuse cases, the Society in many places, many times has asserted in secular courts, under oath, that the Elders are Clergy, and are entitled to "Clergy-Penitent Privilege" of confidentiality, and as such were not legally obligated to report the crimes.
I had never EVER heard these things asserted at the Kingdom Halls, and in paying attention since 1962, was frankly stunned by these sworn testimony (under oath)  assertions, declarations and/or admissions in the secular civil courts.
That is why I read full transcripts of the Society's court cases, when I find them ... as what is said at the Kingdom Halls, and what is said in court ( ... under oath ... ) is quite often  two (or more ...) dramatically different things.
I never remember any Kingdom Hall assertions, that we were "Clergy", entitled to any special legal privileges ... only that we were "Ministers", and could assert that our commission as ministers was equal to clergy's "ordinations" ...  although I remember from circa 1974-82  that the ex-Bethelite Pioneer Brother that ran off with my first wife  liked to witness in the jails and prisons, as he would pull the "Minister Card", and they would give him clergy privileges to go in and out any time it suited him.
Perhaps the next step is start baptizing young children, and have some kind of special JW clown suits like Christendom has ..... perhaps with a Nautical theme.
I often wonder about the Catholics' Heirchy ... where do they get those 15 pound hats?

Ah so you were bored but not now :) 
And I agree with you about numbering verses. I'm probably as guilty as anyone for taking a vese out of context. 
When we look at Paul's writings as the letters to congregations that they were, the we get a much better meaning from them. 
I would have loved to have met him. A man that wasn't frightened to speak his mind. Not all mamby pamby like the JW Org pretends to be. 
I've always found that the Org here in UK tries to act toooo posh. 
There was an old Elder in the Honiton congregation and he was an ex farmer. Henry was his name.
He would pronounce Honiton as Onitun, and Exeter as Hexeter. Poor man was always being told off by other Elders. But it was him, his character, the man he really was. But it was easy to see the other Elders didn't like it. 
It was so easy to see, and so funny, that congregants would put on a posher voice in the KH. Then once outside or away from the hall, even on the ministry, then would be back to their 'real self'. 
In my opinion God does not want posh. Jesus did not chose posh people for his disciples / apostles.   

That is horrendous, funny but horrendous.  Are you totally bored too ? 
I'll get back to listing on Ebay at least that is productive / proactive and positive.