JOHN BUTLER

I am finding it soooooo funny, this pretence that the modern day GB is just a 'follow on' from the J-GB as you folks are now calling it. Is this GB / W/t / JW org brainwashing ?  Or are you people so indoctrinated as to actually believe it or make it up yourselves ? 
Is there any mention in the Greek scriptures, of words that directly / exactly translate into Governing Body ? If so please put proof up on here so that I can check it out for myself. 
There is one thing however that I've found interesting, it seems it was only by some people complaining / objecting to certain 'rules' being made, that anything was done to change the situation. 
It also seems that the Apostles and older men were available to talk to directly, to be able to make complaint. Totally different to today's GB who seem to hide behind locked gates and won't even do interviews or answer questions from ordinary people. 
I do hope Anna knows that 'err' has a double meaning. It can mean deliberate wrongdoing.  And relating those anointed Apostles to the GB now is quite funny. Remember Anna your GB is not inspired, the Apostles were.  
 
 

Now't as strange as folk.  As olde Amos Brearly would say.  

@JW Insider Having just read your comment I would say you are too close to the GB to make a balanced appraisal.
If you are 'friends' with them then your judgement could be clouded by such. 
You have said yourself they :  call themselves the "Governing Body"  they have taken upon themselves.  
 Granted that this does not excuse them from false teachings and doing nothing about traditional false teachings from the past. Nor does it excuse them for not doing enough to expose the potential gravity and extent of child sexual abuse and child physical abuse.
So here we have 8 men that chose to be the Governing Body, then call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', placing themselves above all the Anointed (Luke 14 v 11).
They deliberately 'err' (do things wrong) and then use the excuse that they are not inspired. 
So these faults that you have mentioned (above) , the GB are spreading Earthwide. Yet you love them for it ? 
The increase in JW's is in uneducated / less well educated lands. The reasons are obvious. Those people do not dig deep enough into the GB and it's Org, before committing themselves to it.  I was also like that of course, I believed all i was told, then believed again when told of changes, I was as blind as those less educated ones are. 
The size of this group of elders focusing on the study of the Bible for teaching purposes is kept manageable for purposes of efficient discussion and decision making (8 or so persons).  So 12 Apostles was too many was it ? 
There is always a ready "crew" of persons who can help research issues, handle their incoming and outgoing communications, translation printing, etc.
They are in a position to hear questions and concerns about current doctrines and procedures that could potentially come from all over the world.
Which is it ? Do other people handle the communications or do the GB hear the questions ? Basically what I'm saying is that ordinary congregants questions and complaints NEVER reach the GB. I wrote to the London Bethel once and the reply was horrific. They basically told me to not bother them and to ask my local elders. However i wanted an opinion from those I thought would have more knowledge and understanding. How wrong I was. 
They have a mindset that makes them want to imitate the serious responsibility that the early Christian apostles had when they devote themselves to prayer and teaching.
This one made me laugh !   Is that why they talk so much about young men in tight 'pants' and also about masterbation.  Be real, they have no idea what to teach and what to leaver to people's personal conscience. 
They have the ability to respond to questions and issues very quickly and consistently in a way that the entire world of congregations can benefit from.
Dream on. They knew about the Child Sexual Abuse problem years ago. How 'quickly' have they dealt with it ? 
But it's been a known thing for the JW Org / W/t Soc / Bible students to deliberately drag it's heels when it might upset some folks. 
It took them 30 years to give up Christmas even though they knew it was wrong in the late 1800's.
It took them 70 years to give up Smoking even though they knew that was wrong too.  Not too bright, no, they didn't want to lose congregants.  
It they has sorted the CSA issues properly and quickly I think they would have lost too many elders.
 Things that are legal and expected in one country might get the congregations in trouble in another country, for example.
Now this is one in my favour I think. I have suggested that anointed brothers from different countries should form the Leaders of the JW Org. With world wide web communication, world wide telephone communication, and does anyone still use Fax  to send hard copy documents ?   There is no shortage of ways of communication around the globe.  So why have mainly 8 American men running the show ?  Would make much more sense to have people that know their countries laws and traditions. 
I'll finish on this one. 
 As long as all the persons who listen to them are willing to question and critique the doctrines and processes, as all Christians have a duty to do, then there is nothing wrong with having a "Governing Body."
If anyone questions or criticises the GB they are accused of 'causing a division in the congregation' and can be disfellowshipped. 

@TrueTomHarley don't talk like a wet cabbage Tom.
It's just your dream that you want opposers, as you call them, to think that way. 
I've already given a suggestion as to how a group of leaders could be earthwide and still act as 'one', and they would have their fingers on the pulse in each country. They would know the laws and traditions and problems in their own country. They wouldknow exactly how to word things and to deal with specific info'
I think you only love it so much as the 8 men are basically all American white men. 

Quote " Humans tend to like hierarchies of people, representative government, etc., in spite of the potential errors. "
So you are now admitting that the GB are the hierarchy. 
 hierarchies a system in which members of an organization or society are ranked according to relative status or authority.        

And I always thought that the JW org / Watchtower didn't have a clergy class and a hierarchy. 
But it has both. The GB are the hierarchy and the Elders are the clergy class. 

I do believe that some Americans used to have 'special' number plates for their cars, such as JAH -1 

A funny thing was that in Bristol Filton Congregation, here in England,  brothers would wear football ties to support their favorite football teams   Now wasn't that being no part of the world  , and didn't it cause bad feelings amongst brothers that supported different teams. Somethings you see in the Org do really make ya laugh. 
JW Org ties being sold online then are they ?  I remember a line from a film "The money is in the merchandise"...... 

It obviously means different things in different contexts.
'All scripture is inspired of God' should mean that all scripture was written under the direct inspiration from God. 
However the question has been raised as to whether the writer was inspired generally or just during the time of doing the writing. 
My point would be that if All Scripture was written under inspiration, then it would also take God's inspiration to understand it. And, if the first century Christian leaders were either inspired generally or inspired when they took specific action, then the 'modern day' Christian leaders would also need to be inspired generally or inspired when they took specific action.
The GB say they are not inspired.  

A funny thing was that in Bristol Filton Congregation, here in England,  brothers would wear football ties to support their favorite football teams   Now wasn't that being no part of the world  , and didn't it cause bad feelings amongst brothers that supported different teams. Somethings you see in the Org do really make ya laugh. 
JW Org ties being sold online then are they ?  I remember a line from a film "The money is in the merchandise"...... 

A funny thing was that in Bristol Filton Congregation, here in England,  brothers would wear football ties to support their favorite football teams   Now wasn't that being no part of the world  , and didn't it cause bad feelings amongst brothers that supported different teams. Somethings you see in the Org do really make ya laugh. 
JW Org ties being sold online then are they ?  I remember a line from a film "The money is in the merchandise"...... 

@JW Insider Having just read your comment I would say you are too close to the GB to make a balanced appraisal.
If you are 'friends' with them then your judgement could be clouded by such. 
You have said yourself they :  call themselves the "Governing Body"  they have taken upon themselves.  
 Granted that this does not excuse them from false teachings and doing nothing about traditional false teachings from the past. Nor does it excuse them for not doing enough to expose the potential gravity and extent of child sexual abuse and child physical abuse.
So here we have 8 men that chose to be the Governing Body, then call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', placing themselves above all the Anointed (Luke 14 v 11).
They deliberately 'err' (do things wrong) and then use the excuse that they are not inspired. 
So these faults that you have mentioned (above) , the GB are spreading Earthwide. Yet you love them for it ? 
The increase in JW's is in uneducated / less well educated lands. The reasons are obvious. Those people do not dig deep enough into the GB and it's Org, before committing themselves to it.  I was also like that of course, I believed all i was told, then believed again when told of changes, I was as blind as those less educated ones are. 
The size of this group of elders focusing on the study of the Bible for teaching purposes is kept manageable for purposes of efficient discussion and decision making (8 or so persons).  So 12 Apostles was too many was it ? 
There is always a ready "crew" of persons who can help research issues, handle their incoming and outgoing communications, translation printing, etc.
They are in a position to hear questions and concerns about current doctrines and procedures that could potentially come from all over the world.
Which is it ? Do other people handle the communications or do the GB hear the questions ? Basically what I'm saying is that ordinary congregants questions and complaints NEVER reach the GB. I wrote to the London Bethel once and the reply was horrific. They basically told me to not bother them and to ask my local elders. However i wanted an opinion from those I thought would have more knowledge and understanding. How wrong I was. 
They have a mindset that makes them want to imitate the serious responsibility that the early Christian apostles had when they devote themselves to prayer and teaching.
This one made me laugh !   Is that why they talk so much about young men in tight 'pants' and also about masterbation.  Be real, they have no idea what to teach and what to leaver to people's personal conscience. 
They have the ability to respond to questions and issues very quickly and consistently in a way that the entire world of congregations can benefit from.
Dream on. They knew about the Child Sexual Abuse problem years ago. How 'quickly' have they dealt with it ? 
But it's been a known thing for the JW Org / W/t Soc / Bible students to deliberately drag it's heels when it might upset some folks. 
It took them 30 years to give up Christmas even though they knew it was wrong in the late 1800's.
It took them 70 years to give up Smoking even though they knew that was wrong too.  Not too bright, no, they didn't want to lose congregants.  
It they has sorted the CSA issues properly and quickly I think they would have lost too many elders.
 Things that are legal and expected in one country might get the congregations in trouble in another country, for example.
Now this is one in my favour I think. I have suggested that anointed brothers from different countries should form the Leaders of the JW Org. With world wide web communication, world wide telephone communication, and does anyone still use Fax  to send hard copy documents ?   There is no shortage of ways of communication around the globe.  So why have mainly 8 American men running the show ?  Would make much more sense to have people that know their countries laws and traditions. 
I'll finish on this one. 
 As long as all the persons who listen to them are willing to question and critique the doctrines and processes, as all Christians have a duty to do, then there is nothing wrong with having a "Governing Body."
If anyone questions or criticises the GB they are accused of 'causing a division in the congregation' and can be disfellowshipped. 

Now't as strange as folk.  As olde Amos Brearly would say.  

A funny thing was that in Bristol Filton Congregation, here in England,  brothers would wear football ties to support their favorite football teams   Now wasn't that being no part of the world  , and didn't it cause bad feelings amongst brothers that supported different teams. Somethings you see in the Org do really make ya laugh. 
JW Org ties being sold online then are they ?  I remember a line from a film "The money is in the merchandise"...... 

It seems how i will lose very quickly my  Total Reputation with BTK down votes :)))))) What if exactly that is his Secret Mission .... to DFD me from this place ? 

I do believe that some Americans used to have 'special' number plates for their cars, such as JAH -1 

I do believe that some Americans used to have 'special' number plates for their cars, such as JAH -1 

For me, it's stupidity and bad taste. :)))

@TrueTomHarley don't talk like a wet cabbage Tom.
It's just your dream that you want opposers, as you call them, to think that way. 
I've already given a suggestion as to how a group of leaders could be earthwide and still act as 'one', and they would have their fingers on the pulse in each country. They would know the laws and traditions and problems in their own country. They wouldknow exactly how to word things and to deal with specific info'
I think you only love it so much as the 8 men are basically all American white men. 

@JW Insider Having just read your comment I would say you are too close to the GB to make a balanced appraisal.
If you are 'friends' with them then your judgement could be clouded by such. 
You have said yourself they :  call themselves the "Governing Body"  they have taken upon themselves.  
 Granted that this does not excuse them from false teachings and doing nothing about traditional false teachings from the past. Nor does it excuse them for not doing enough to expose the potential gravity and extent of child sexual abuse and child physical abuse.
So here we have 8 men that chose to be the Governing Body, then call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', placing themselves above all the Anointed (Luke 14 v 11).
They deliberately 'err' (do things wrong) and then use the excuse that they are not inspired. 
So these faults that you have mentioned (above) , the GB are spreading Earthwide. Yet you love them for it ? 
The increase in JW's is in uneducated / less well educated lands. The reasons are obvious. Those people do not dig deep enough into the GB and it's Org, before committing themselves to it.  I was also like that of course, I believed all i was told, then believed again when told of changes, I was as blind as those less educated ones are. 
The size of this group of elders focusing on the study of the Bible for teaching purposes is kept manageable for purposes of efficient discussion and decision making (8 or so persons).  So 12 Apostles was too many was it ? 
There is always a ready "crew" of persons who can help research issues, handle their incoming and outgoing communications, translation printing, etc.
They are in a position to hear questions and concerns about current doctrines and procedures that could potentially come from all over the world.
Which is it ? Do other people handle the communications or do the GB hear the questions ? Basically what I'm saying is that ordinary congregants questions and complaints NEVER reach the GB. I wrote to the London Bethel once and the reply was horrific. They basically told me to not bother them and to ask my local elders. However i wanted an opinion from those I thought would have more knowledge and understanding. How wrong I was. 
They have a mindset that makes them want to imitate the serious responsibility that the early Christian apostles had when they devote themselves to prayer and teaching.
This one made me laugh !   Is that why they talk so much about young men in tight 'pants' and also about masterbation.  Be real, they have no idea what to teach and what to leaver to people's personal conscience. 
They have the ability to respond to questions and issues very quickly and consistently in a way that the entire world of congregations can benefit from.
Dream on. They knew about the Child Sexual Abuse problem years ago. How 'quickly' have they dealt with it ? 
But it's been a known thing for the JW Org / W/t Soc / Bible students to deliberately drag it's heels when it might upset some folks. 
It took them 30 years to give up Christmas even though they knew it was wrong in the late 1800's.
It took them 70 years to give up Smoking even though they knew that was wrong too.  Not too bright, no, they didn't want to lose congregants.  
It they has sorted the CSA issues properly and quickly I think they would have lost too many elders.
 Things that are legal and expected in one country might get the congregations in trouble in another country, for example.
Now this is one in my favour I think. I have suggested that anointed brothers from different countries should form the Leaders of the JW Org. With world wide web communication, world wide telephone communication, and does anyone still use Fax  to send hard copy documents ?   There is no shortage of ways of communication around the globe.  So why have mainly 8 American men running the show ?  Would make much more sense to have people that know their countries laws and traditions. 
I'll finish on this one. 
 As long as all the persons who listen to them are willing to question and critique the doctrines and processes, as all Christians have a duty to do, then there is nothing wrong with having a "Governing Body."
If anyone questions or criticises the GB they are accused of 'causing a division in the congregation' and can be disfellowshipped. 

I am finding it soooooo funny, this pretence that the modern day GB is just a 'follow on' from the J-GB as you folks are now calling it. Is this GB / W/t / JW org brainwashing ?  Or are you people so indoctrinated as to actually believe it or make it up yourselves ? 
Is there any mention in the Greek scriptures, of words that directly / exactly translate into Governing Body ? If so please put proof up on here so that I can check it out for myself. 
There is one thing however that I've found interesting, it seems it was only by some people complaining / objecting to certain 'rules' being made, that anything was done to change the situation. 
It also seems that the Apostles and older men were available to talk to directly, to be able to make complaint. Totally different to today's GB who seem to hide behind locked gates and won't even do interviews or answer questions from ordinary people. 
I do hope Anna knows that 'err' has a double meaning. It can mean deliberate wrongdoing.  And relating those anointed Apostles to the GB now is quite funny. Remember Anna your GB is not inspired, the Apostles were.  
 
 

I think he means by taking a ‘wait and see’ attitude, rather than diving in and correcting matters. It does not sound as though they didn’t know just what to correct.
They didn’t go in lockstep back then, is my take, and Paul was confident enough in that to operate freely without ‘checking in’ for authorization. 
But neither do they go in lockstep today, despite obvious greater organization—which is entirely consistent with the greater field (and harvest) that is being cultivated. Many arrangements originate outside of Bethel, which is initially very hesitant, even suspect of them, until they see how it works out, after which it gets behind and magnifies them. Witnessing methods, construction techniques, internet utilization, for example.

Yes. Without some sort of governing arrangement—call it what you will—the Bible becomes a relic with the death of the apostles. Similar to how the constitution becomes a relic in the absence of a Supreme Court.
I swear that there are some who would prefer it that way. That way they can personalize it any way they want. Don’t like this or that? Simply interpret it away—no harm done.

First of all, I should repeat that I have deep respect for the elders who call themselves the "Governing Body" because they have taken the lead in speaking and teaching. They are worthy of "double honor" for their hard work and the heavy responsibility they have taken upon themselves. Granted that this does not excuse them from false teachings and doing nothing about traditional false teachings from the past. Nor does it excuse them for not doing enough to expose the potential gravity and extent of child sexual abuse and child physical abuse. I'm not trying to divert this topic to the specifics of any other issues of doctrines and procedures.
I know you'll disagree, but this is just to explain my own view. It's just that I wanted you to know that I think these particular elders, who call themselves a Governing Body, have put themselves in a unique and valuable position for the overall benefit of congregations worldwide. 
They have years of experience studying, speaking, and teaching on Bible topics. They are in a position to discuss certain difficult doctrinal issues with others who have years of experience studying the Bible. The size of this group of elders focusing on the study of the Bible for teaching purposes is kept manageable for purposes of efficient discussion and decision making (8 or so persons). There is always a ready "crew" of persons who can help handle related issues of logistics or issues of lesser importance. There is always a ready "crew" of persons who can help research issues, handle their incoming and outgoing communications, translation printing, etc. They are in a position to hear questions and concerns about current doctrines and procedures that could potentially come from all over the world.  They have years of experience working with various congregations. They have years of experience traveling to congregations in various places in the world to be aware of various customs and practices that differ from their own. They have a mindset that makes them want to imitate the serious responsibility that the early Christian apostles had when they devote themselves to prayer and teaching. They have the ability to respond to questions and issues very quickly and consistently in a way that the entire world of congregations can benefit from. Of course, this is fraught with all kinds of dangers and potential abuse. Or a small mistake can quickly turn into a large one. Things that are legal and expected in one country might get the congregations in trouble in another country, for example.
There are other things, of course, but these ones are important to me.
Surely you would think that in any church or congregation there might be a need for organization and leadership. Agreeing on meeting times, topics to speak about, topics for Bible study, activities, care for the building, what to do with contributions, and even issues of who might join the church, who might need to be dismissed from the church, who might need counsel or adjustment, who might have special needs the church can take care of, etc., etc.
Most people would have no problem with this on a local church-by-church basis. But here we have tens of thousands of these congregations all around the world, and all of them are happy to teach exactly the same message. A group of elders who are deemed capable of handling this bigger responsibility is, in essence, no different than the local congregations. It's just that some of their functions will necessarily carry even greater responsibility.
This might be true. But it can also just be a logistical problem. Remember how Moses handled the millions in a single "congregation" that began draining his time and energy. He ended up appointing a "hierarchy of command" similar to any large army or large business corporation, so that concerns could be handled more efficiently. Also, on a personal level, while at Bethel I sat at meetings with as many as 5 GB members at the same congregation meeting. While visiting Warwick several months ago, I sat in a meeting with 2 members of the GB and 3 GB "Helpers" (and the wife of a deceased GB member, Sydlik). I could have gone up to any one of them after the meeting to ask questions. In fact, I did. I asked Brother Morris, "How are you?"
Anyway, in my opinion, the Governing Body provides a practical committee of elders handling issues that elders should handle. The difference being that they handle issues that come in from the worldwide congregation. As long as all the persons who listen to them are willing to question and critique the doctrines and processes, as all Christians have a duty to do, then there is nothing wrong with having a "Governing Body." (You might know that we are not the only religion that happens to call such a committee of "church decision-makers" a "Governing Body.") That might not be the best phrase, but it's clear that the congregations generally agree that it's appropriate to have such a group.
I personally don't agree that any such group should make a claim that they are THE faithful and discreet slave prophesied to come into existence at a proper time beginning in 1919. It's indiscreet and unfaithful to the teachings of the scriptures to accept them in that specific capacity. I'm sure they are making a mistake in that regard, but again, this is just my own opinion. It doesn't stop me from accepting and respecting 98.6 percent of what is published by them.

One thing I have said many times before .... with humans, there is truly ...
INFINITE VARIETY