JOHN BUTLER

If people follow such teachings and kill themselves, it is loss of their own lives and wasted effort.
But when people, as in example you gave with Uriah, successfully implement to kill somebody (spiritual or literal dead) because of teaching aka instruction from some men ...... than is not enough to make just intellectual disagreement and do a job.... but refuse to do so. 

I think this is strange feeling.
........In your heart....or in god's.

In my amateur opinion: two expressions with the same meaning :))))
Are you serious?
Do you want to apply this idea about JHVH only on JW religion in some special situations and periods of religious progress/changes aka new light dogma?
Or do you offer this Idea as General View (Happiness) that JHVH have on Humankind and World Condition (in specific religious issue: old Jew, 1st Church, 2nd Church, Reformed Churches, etc.) in past thousand years? By reading of Bible report we see that god was Unhappy only ones, when released Flood on Earth. In all other stages, periods by not intervened He showed Happiness? :))
 

This is one general claim that can be/need to be  used  in the system, of all kind.
 
 
 
If i may say, it seems that JW religion is one Socio-Religious International Experiment. 
And as such, with promises made by imperfect and erroneous leaders, promises in the name of God/Jesus, they offer leadership with warning (warning clearly made from 2017 - not before and not on a day of your baptismal promises, after long decades of "perfect meals" they were bringing to table) how "Jesus not promised perfect food". /WHAT VERSES in Bible CARRYING THIS JESUS PROMISE ABOUT NOT PROMISE?
Again we see, they changed rhetoric. And again, this was done in Jesus name.

100% true.  Somehow though I think that the idea of unquestioned obedience to a group of uninspired men exists in the minds of some Witnesses, but not all. I had a conversation along similar lines with Witnesses on another website, and when I pointed out that Br. Jackson of the GB himself indicated that we should not have unquestioning obedience to them, and I even quoted Br. Jackson to support what I said, I got thrown out of the forum. I paraphrase Br. Jackson here as I am on another computer and do not have access to the transcript where he made that quote. Basically, the gist of what he said was that "if the GB said something that was out of line with the scriptures, then all other JWs who have the Bible, would see that it was wrong direction". In other words, if others recognized from the Bible that certain direction was wrong, they would not follow it, no matter who it came from.
So really, that kind of solves the problem. Someone has to take the lead, and if we use the Bible as a measuring stick, and see that that person, or body of persons are going against the scriptures, then it would be wrong of us to obey them in that particular instance as we must obey God as ruler, rather than men.

Really, looking at all these comments, I am surprised that there could be a problem with understanding how Jehovah might use a particular channel to communicate with his people on earth. Surely you don't think that he is on the case all the time do you? Whatever for? It is clear that there is an organised way of keeping everyone on the same page.Most of the direction is left for the brothers to figure out what is best in accord with Bible principles. And to learn from their mistakes, which is something we all do. Jehovah through Jesus will keep things on track where necessary, and this the way they do it. The scripture says food is provided at the proper time, not ALL the time. Our respect is demonstrated in sticking with the arrangement. Where is  the big deal??

Quote @JW Insider " His abuse of others. In fact it was an over-the-top eulogy of how great he was with kids and how he was always interested in their spiritual welfare that seemed to trigger a muffled outburst during the talk, and just after the talk there was an argument by others in the family about always keeping quiet about shameful things. It finally spilled over to others outside the immediate family. And this brother's own granddaughter had no idea about it until the funeral. It was a mess! "
CSA, hidden in the JW Org, at it's best then. And even you didn't know or most of the congregation so it seems. Doesn't this actually prove my point on this matter (TTH, no it never happens :) ) 
Quote " As a parent, I admit that I've tended to exaggerate the moral problems of the world myself, and I've learned that this fear-mongering doesn't work at all with high-school kids " 
Thank you for your honesty. But multiply that by 8 million JW's and it gets a bit serious. (TTH, it never happens) 
Quote " choosing bridesmaids. "  Um sorry to do this but JW's being no part of the world and not doing anything that relates to spiritism ect.... The origin of bridesmaids was to frighten or confuse evil spirits or the devil. The bridesmaids would all dress the same as the bride so that the evil spirit wouldn't know which one was the bride in case it wanted to 'attack' her. 
Some sources state that, in ancient times, originally the bride and all the bridesmaids wore exactly the same dress and veiled their faces heavily, for the purpose of confusing jealous suitors and evil spirits. In China during the feudal era, the female womb was seen as precious for the production of an heir. (Wikki)
I'll finish on this one. 
Quote "Of course, some Witnesses had terrible experiences in the world, and the organization has truly provided a safe haven, and a spiritual paradise, relatively speaking."  Hum really ? Safe ? Spiritual ? 
Well most on here know my past experience of the 'world', well some of it anyway. So I do not see the JW Org as any different to the 'world' that JW's warn people about.  And spiritual paradise ? When the GB / writing dept' keep changing the meaning of scriptures and keep adding loads to people's shoulders and not offering even one finger to lighten the load.Aa scripture comes to mind about 'We favour adding no further burden to you other than ... " 
But ignore my moaning, it has been raining here and I have outside work to do, so I'm not happy. However now is time for lunch and food helps me to be happier. Have a good day JWI. 
 

I had a Hillman Minx as a kid. It was a ‘Dinky Toy.’ I had over 100 Dinky Toys. I did not realize then that they were British imports.
My parents sold them all at a garage sale when I was away. I have never forgiven them for it.
Bad Dad
Bad Mom
Either that or my brother made off with them (and sold them to JTR) like he made off with my stamp collection.

Yesterday I spent all day making a chicken coop and chicken run (apologies to Mel Gibson) door and door frame in my side yard with the frame posts set in concrete, with concrete pedestals which I am calling "STALAG 17", for my wife's new herd of chickens ( They are "Free Range Chickens", which you have no doubt heard about .. from the time that herds of billions of chickens used to roam the Ohio Valley, here in the United States, and Cave Men used to ride giant lizards to round them up, many times driving them off of cliffs to the precipices below, which  only worked infrequently, as they can fly if it's mostly down,  chicken down being a whole other subject, as they use it to fill military flight jackets, which raises the prices so that even down is up ... where was I ... oh yeah ... am I bored today ... for today it is raining and my neighbors are collecting animals (I already have mine, being unconcerned about the extinction of white rhinoceroses, as long as there are chickens, which will never go extinct because they are delicious, and you cannot kill a whole Rhino for one or two sandwiches.
And as far as TPT having "sinful thoughts", as everone knows, the GB do not HAVE sinful thoughts, I am sure NOTHING could be further from the truth, as his perspective is quite different.

JTR Jr Are you really that bored today ?  Although I'm a bit concerned about this comment of yours. Are you suggesting that TPT has thoughts of a sinful nature ? :) 

NOW! you have ticked me off... STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY !
( Merely a Pavlonian response ... )

And here I thought it was other types of sinning you desired . . .
https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/79686-a-circuit-overseer-states-your-faith-is-garbage-and-needs-to-be-torn-down/page/2/#comments

Just thought. To see something, about something, connected to this "Jew group" (in spiritual or literal way) we need, i suppose, opening/overture of observer mind (observer who know what he is searching, looking for, or we can talk also perhaps about some ignorant person, who is, because of divine power will, in position to see important thing, despite his position) by divine power.
Divine power, i guess, is holy spirit, who make it possible that some person can see something. In such situation  we can talk about "inspiration from above", and a harmonized action and interaction of "two earthly elements - observer and Jew", under influence of/from Heaven. 
Here we can see some literal, physical products/fruits of, as Bible explains, holy spirit. Does observer of this fruits need to be inspired (in other words, does god need to open his eyes) to be able to see fruits? Or, natural state of mind and heart is precondition to recognize (or to not recognize) the Jew who produce such fruits as prove that he is this sort of Jew?
 
Do they (JW members or other believers) consider themselves as "fishes" who are already chosen as good fishes, because they found and hold of true Jew hem? Or this separation, made by angels, is applied for all fishes, because net is one, and it was throwing, had thrown, will be throwing on all? 

@JW Insider in a nutshell it seems to me you are saying that JW Org /Watchtower Soc' are no better than any other religion, and can be seen to be no better.
JW's are volunteers, except for JW children of course. Hence I think baptism should not be until an 'adult' age. Then every real baptised JW would be a volunteer. People in the world are not volunteers. They are born into the world. So I see no point comparing JW's with people of the world. 
Quote "I thought there had not been any cases of CSA in any congregation I had personally been in, .. "  
But how would you know unless you are an Elder ? It's not announced from the platform is it. 
Quote "I've seen a lot of love and long-lasting friendships.. "
I go to classic car shows and automobilia auctions (which I'm involved in setting up ) and there are people there who have known each other for a 'lifetime' and have love and friendship amongst their fellow 'kinsmen'. 
YE olde JW's talk as though all the world is killing each other or on drugs and having multiple sex partners and orgies. Children in the JW Org are taught that everyone outside the Org serves the Devil. And the Armageddon pictures just to frighten people. 
And all people that leave the Org ' have gone back to' the 'ways of the world' which are wicked. I laugh at it all but it's not really funny. The Org lives on scaremongering. And I've said it before (but according to TTH it never happens) congregants are frightened of the Elders. Frightened of being reproved for the least little thing, whilst the Elders get away with much bigger things. 
Quote " at a recent funeral of a local elder when several tales of his abuse were exposed by family members.. "
Does this mean He abused others or He was abused by others ? 
Quote "But this is far from the norm.. " How do you know that ? It may be far from the norn where you are but I'm talking Earthwide. 
Enough, 11.30 am here in England. Coffee break, I'll even ask my wife if she wants coffee too :)  

It can be overdone. 
Still, one never hears of people swearing off watching the news because they are sick and tired of the chipper reports and the unceasing upbeat tone.

Are you concerned that the Sermon of Srecko did not make the cut?

Most of the Brothers that work at Bethel are Jehovah's Witnesses that are full time volunteers, who basically work for free.  Some are part time and work on an as-needed basis, and for certain lawsuits the Society hires , or partners with outside Law Firms, mainly for their common sense approach to things, but also because of their experience in local court systems, and of course they are paid quite a LOT of money.
...but even Lawyers working for the Society, when working a case outside of Colony Park, which is a closed  and gated township about 30 miles east of Warwick, where the Society has about 2 million dollars worth of residential and multiple use properties to keep the lawyers isolated from Warwick, the Society's Lawyers do not ride the bus to work, or stay in a Motel 6 when they are on the road.
First class accomodations and perks, all the way.  After all, they ARE Lawyers! Not like the great crowd of unwashed window washers, and such.
This was explored in greater detail about 5 years ago here on the Archive, but I cannot find anything, anymore, with format changes.

How, exactly,  was it removed?

Attitude? Finally understanding?  Gossip?  Unchristian Conduct?
It is unfortunate, but you are a very confused man. 

I've seen a lot of love and long-lasting friendships. I've seen some awful things too, and heard about many more. But the congregations I have been in over many years (from age 0 to 66) have had very few of these problems.
I thought there had not been any cases of CSA in any congregation I had personally been in, but there was a huge commotion at a recent funeral of a local elder when several tales of his abuse were exposed by family members for the first time AT THE FUNERAL itself. Several (including me) were shocked and surprised.
But this is far from the norm. I've worked in the sound "A/V" booth at many assemblies/conventions since I was a teenager, and have made friends from all over the world. Then, when traveling, I have often met up with these friends. Perhaps I assume that this has been the norm for most Witnesses.
I know that there has been a trend toward more problems, although that's also just my opinion. But I hear about more problems and also see attendance down in several places.
We'd all like to see CSA eliminated from everywhere. I don't believe that we will ever be immune from problems the rest of the world has. But I'd hate to think that it's just as common with us as it is in some other religious institutions. But I don't blame the two-witness rule for the crime, but I do blame it for the slow wheels of congregational justice. And who knows? I think people like Raymond Franz had a chance to fix that part of the problem much earlier, and yet he was evidently blind to it.
I have a feeling that both CSA and shunning will both be "fixed" to the best of the organization's ability from a procedural/rules perspective within a couple of years. It will still happen, of course, but the policies will be adjusted to conform to something more loving. I heard a well known brother in a responsible position at Bethel say that there were only two things that needed to change to nearly remove all the "deserved" animus against us: our shunning policy and our blood policy. He thought both of them should be changed for scriptural reasons. I'm sure he hadn't realized how big the CSA problem would be when more fully exposed.
Local squabbling will always be a problem when brothers see titles as positions of "power" for their ego, instead of opportunities to serve one another more efficiently. I've seen a share of it, and assumed it didn't happen as much elsewhere. I was in a place to hear some yelling and screaming back in the 70's and 80's at Bethel, and a friend tells me that he thinks all the GB get along very well, but that the "helpers" have been known to squabble loudly. Perhaps some things are worth squabbling about. (and most things probably aren't) The apostle Paul speaks of such things even in his own life as a Christian.
Well, you probably know that I don't try to defend everything that's wrong, and I think that everything that's wrong should actually be exposed in the city gates. Exposure actually reduces bad behavior. I've seen it happen directly a few times. Perhaps even bad doctrines and bad decisions and bad policy can be revisited if enough people raise questions publicly. I heard a brother in the Writing Department say that he'd like to see all the things fixed right away that Raymond Franz exposed, and he lamented that some would not be easy to fix. But many of them have already, by now, been fixed.

This never happens. Everyone who is an elder remains an elder unless some are seen to no longer qualify. Judging from what you have written, that would have been the case where you hail from.
It often takes a big blowup of some sort because elders are like people anywhere—they tend to give others the benefit of the doubt, disinclined to judge the “straw” in their brother’s eye, on account of the “rafter” in their own. It is not an easy thing to delete a colleague or to persuade one to step down in the absence of some big blowup. In times of great blowups, it sometimes takes a circuit overseer or two to sort things out.

I have stated on the Archive at least twice before, months ago,  that it is my considered opinion that Vladimir Putin will rectify the injustices towards Jehovah's Witnesses before 2020. 
It is also my considered opinion that the reason is that he will do so is simply that he thinks like an adult, although surrounded by sycophants and agenda driven bullys, and as a practical matter he laughs at these resolutions, and ex-national judgments, however, as a reasonable man he does consider them, and he is an excellent political powerhouse.
However, if it does not happen, Jehovah's Witnesses predictions in the past having always been wrong, I will just shrug my shoulders, grin at the camera, and mumble something about "overlapping" something-or-another.
 
 

IN this case, a "class action suit" appears to me to be ONLY a money grab by OPPOSITION lawyers, who will get somewhere around 40% of the total value of this suit, if they win.
I have a very low opinion of Watchtower Lawyers, having read the transcripts of many other cases where they used every dirty lawyer trick in the book to obscure and pervert Justice, or at least the "Due Process" that might have led to Justice, but in this case they are, I believe on solid ground, as the opposition lawyers are now in a "total war" scenario.  Neither side cares about Justice ... the court systems are being used as a chessboard.
This is not to say that Watchtower's Layers are doing the "right thing", for the right reasons .... ON BOTH SIDES IT'S ONLY ALL ABOUT MONEY.
That is a Lawyers job ... to protect the fiduciary interests of their clients, WITHOUT regard for Justice, on both sides.
In this case the REAL clients on the opposition side are the lawyers themselves, serving their own interests, looking to put a giant vacuum cleaner hose into the Watchtower Scrooge McDuck money vault.
 
 

@JW Insider  i had told myself i would not spend time on here today as I have much work that needs doing BUT :-
Quote " but you have made previous comments that make me think that you believed a TRUE "faithful and discreet slave" should "in effect" be inspired in some way "
Yes indeed. I think much of the Bible is written in a sort of 'code'. Yes we can read the words but we can have different interpretations of those words. Indeed the GB of JW Org change the meanings of some scriptures as I've said before. It gets boring to mention the 'Superior Authorities' & ' This Generation'  but it proves a point. 
The Bible books were written under inspiration of God's Holy Spirit. The Bible was compiled under the same inspiration. 
The scripture which actually says 'All scripture is inspired of God .... ' is rather strange for two reasons. 1. not all scripture had been written at the time, and 2. certainly the 'bible had not been compiled. My feeling about that scripture is that it referred to the Hebrew writings, which the early Christians already had.  Otherwise it would have to have been prophecy about the writing of the other books and the complete 66 books being gathered together as one. 
Now we know that in times of war countries use code words etc. And we know that we live in a time of spiritual warfare. So it is my humble opinion that only Inspired Anointed would have the key to the code of the deeper things of God's word.
Remember, after Jesus was resurrected and he was walking along with, two disciples i think, (my mind goes) then Jesus fully opened up the scriptures to them. 
Well in my opinion Jesus will only open up the scriptures to the true Anointed, and that opening up will be by the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit. The very same inspiration by Holy Spirit that was given to write those 66 books.  
Will there be Anointed that are inspired and also Anointed that are not inspired ?  I do not know. But it must be Inspired Anointed that lead God's true organisation, otherwise it will end up like JW org. :) 
Enough I must work now.  I have much more to convey, but not yet, not yet.............. (yes it's a film quote) 

@JW Insider  i had told myself i would not spend time on here today as I have much work that needs doing BUT :-
Quote " but you have made previous comments that make me think that you believed a TRUE "faithful and discreet slave" should "in effect" be inspired in some way "
Yes indeed. I think much of the Bible is written in a sort of 'code'. Yes we can read the words but we can have different interpretations of those words. Indeed the GB of JW Org change the meanings of some scriptures as I've said before. It gets boring to mention the 'Superior Authorities' & ' This Generation'  but it proves a point. 
The Bible books were written under inspiration of God's Holy Spirit. The Bible was compiled under the same inspiration. 
The scripture which actually says 'All scripture is inspired of God .... ' is rather strange for two reasons. 1. not all scripture had been written at the time, and 2. certainly the 'bible had not been compiled. My feeling about that scripture is that it referred to the Hebrew writings, which the early Christians already had.  Otherwise it would have to have been prophecy about the writing of the other books and the complete 66 books being gathered together as one. 
Now we know that in times of war countries use code words etc. And we know that we live in a time of spiritual warfare. So it is my humble opinion that only Inspired Anointed would have the key to the code of the deeper things of God's word.
Remember, after Jesus was resurrected and he was walking along with, two disciples i think, (my mind goes) then Jesus fully opened up the scriptures to them. 
Well in my opinion Jesus will only open up the scriptures to the true Anointed, and that opening up will be by the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit. The very same inspiration by Holy Spirit that was given to write those 66 books.  
Will there be Anointed that are inspired and also Anointed that are not inspired ?  I do not know. But it must be Inspired Anointed that lead God's true organisation, otherwise it will end up like JW org. :) 
Enough I must work now.  I have much more to convey, but not yet, not yet.............. (yes it's a film quote)