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JOHN BUTLER

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  1. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to TrueTomHarley in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I think not. The contexts are completely different. 
    The superfine apostles that Paul fought with in Corinth were men very impressed with the wisdom of that Greek culture that Paul deliberately set aside. The first three chapters of 1 Corinthians makes that clear. Paul determined that he would know nothing among them except Christ impaled. He probably could have gone toe to toe with them in “wisdom” in a way that most others could not because he was educated as a Pharisee. He decided not to. Consequently he came to them with “fear and trembling” since he effectively approached them with “one hand tied behind his back.”
    Does this in any way fit the GB? They never have such “wisdom” of the educated world and are roundly derided for it. Their formal education stops at high school in almost all cases.
    The superfine apostles were that way, but the telling circumstance is that they hadn’t done anything to merit it. The GB are not that way, in my estimation, but the telling circumstance is that they have done something to merit it if they were.
    The superfine ones were comfortable men who wanted Paul’s authority but not his work. The GB have taken on his work. Paul almost loses it in his second letter comparing how his record bests the superfine ones in every way. So this, too, doesn’t fit the GB at all. They do have circumstances approaching that of Paul, as the superfine apostles did not. They have usually served full-time for decades, often in circumstances more lowly than of those that they would later lead.
    In no possible way can they be compared to the armchair superfine apostles of the Corinth area.
     
  2. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I definitely agree with that. No matter how sure I might sound, I am just giving an opinion on what I believe a Scripture might mean. Even if I don't have any doubts about it, it doesn't make it true.
    And that too. BTW, it's this tendency to conflate "inspired" and "anointed" that made me think you might have thought that the GB ought to be "inspired" in some way even though they have clearly said that they are not. I know you have never said it that way, but you have made previous comments that make me think that you believed a TRUE "faithful and discreet slave" should "in effect" be inspired in some way. You have said things like the following:
    I probably read too much into it.
    I personally do not think of the Governing Body as "THE faithful and discreet slave." I don't think anyone, or any particular identifiable group is "THAT slave." It was merely an illustration that showed how some Christians might be like that good slave, and some might be like this other bad slave. In fact, Jesus gave many more examples of how the slave might be bad than might be good. I think that Jesus gave the illustration, not to create a hierarchical group that might try to "lord it over" their fellow Christians, or try to be "governors of their souls" or "guardians of doctrine." I think Jesus knew that most Christians, imperfect as we are, would strive to do good and probably fall short many times. Jesus is already identified as the "One Governor" of our faith, and he told us not to follow those who want to be called Leader, Father or Teacher. We can find many different teachers under many different circumstances in our Christian experience, and we can try to be one of those many teachers to others, when called upon.
    I think Paul dealt with people who looked to men (like Paul, Apollos, and Cephas) to be their Governing Body, or other superfine apostles. But Paul spoke out against the idea in several ways, even though Paul himself really was a "guardian of doctrine." Here are some excerpts from the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 4, where we actually find some  comments about supposed "faithful" and "discreet" "stewards" and the idea of "lording it over others" which is exactly what Jesus' illustration warned against:
    (1 Corinthians 4:1-21) . . . A man should regard us as attendants of Christ and stewards of God’s sacred secrets. 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . . the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. . . . 14 I am writing these things, not to put you to shame, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you certainly do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus, I have become your father through the good news. 16 I urge you, therefore, become imitators of me. 17 That is why I am sending Timothy to you, because he is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord. He will remind you of my methods in connection with Christ Jesus, just as I am teaching everywhere in every congregation. 18 Some are puffed up with pride, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if Jehovah wills, and I will get to know, not the speech of those who are puffed up with pride, but their power. 20 For the Kingdom of God is a matter not of speech but of power. 21 Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod or with love and mildness of spirit?
    To me this sounds like a commentary on the parable itself. It contains the idea that some would want to beat their fellow servants. They would want to take matters into their own hands before the Lord comes in his due time. Some would be puffed up and wish to begin ruling as kings (governors). These human tribunals (governing bodies) are considered unimportant to Paul. They are trying to judge matters before their time. They are drunk with power, puffed up with pride. Not even the apostles look for "honor" or present themselves as "discreet" and yet these persons want to present themselves as discreet (wise). So Paul sends people to them (like Apollos and Timothy) who are NOT at all like that, people such as Timothy who follow the mild and loving methods of Paul, who will treat them like a father admonishes beloved children. And as far as "guardians" Paul says that they may have "10,000 guardians" not just 8 or so. 10,000 was on the order of the actual number of Christians in the Roman Empire at that time, according to Acts.
    Now most Witnesses probably think about the GB as exactly the kind of loving admonishers that Paul and Timothy and Apollos must have been. So this should not be taken as an indictment of the idea of a Governing Body. But I understand some of the problems you have with the Governing Body and their claims.
  3. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Don't wait for "the situation to be right", TTH, take control!
    You could skulk around college gymnasiums, and find the loners and nerd types, even better if they are nerdy loners ...  and offer them beer if they will study the Bible with you,  and try to form relationships. I understand that college kids like beer.
    If a college is too far away,  perhaps you can start earlier at Elementary Schools.
    Offer them candy. I understand kids LOVE candy.
    In the current social environment, what could go wrong?

  4. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to TrueTomHarley in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    what I meant is that I don’t plan to pursue it. 
    However, JWI himself responded, so I will. He has extraordinary powers granted him by the Librarian (that old hen). He can divide into a separate thread if he wants to.
    One college kid asked, when I proposed coming back, “To what end?” It was a question  I’d not been asked before.
    I explained that in my ideal scenario I would return 100 times and engage in 100 different conversations and on the 101st I would ask him if he wanted to be a Jehovah’s Witness like me and at that time he should say ‘No.’ 
    I even asked him to rehearse. “Let me show you how it would work. I am going to ask you to become a Witness like me and I want you to say “No.” Would you do that? He agreed. 
    “Would you like to become a Witness?” I asked. “No,” he said.
    “You see? Nothing to worry about. It’s just conversation. You’ll learn your way around the Bible in the meantime. The moment you tire of it, just let me know. No one is easier to get rid of than Tommy.”
    The anticult people try to spin our calls as “recruiting.” That’s why the outrage some have over the recent letter expressing condolences over someone’s loss. If they just took it at face value, they’d be okay with it. We should not let those scoundrels define the game.
    Are we “recruiting?” I suppose so, but in the most non-threatening way possible, so that only by really stretching the point could we be said to be doing it. And it is not an immediate goal—telling the good news of the kingdom is. College is far more indoctrinating than anything having to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses. The typical student is separated 24/7 from his or her previous stabilizing routine and people—a classic tool of brainwashing.
    (I didn’t actually go through the rehearsal with him. Our best lines always occur to us too late. But that does not mean that I won’t do it when the situation is right.)
  5. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    If you want to save hard drive space, consider doing all your typing in lower case letters, and saw off the end of your computer table, so the mouse won't have so long to travel.
  6. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    You absolutely don't make sense.  I gave you the link from the JW website that shows what Watchtower has taught about the Body of Christ - that it is comprised of the anointed ones.  Today, in word, (maybe in print also) they teach differently than what they have written in their publications in the past.  They speak out of both sides of their mouth and you are choosing their most recent LIE.  Why would I chose to follow the GB's twisted path?  Why do YOU?  Their teachings are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  They are no different than the Pharisees - a brood of vipers.  Matt 12:34  If you could only see how confused you are by following these men.  
  7. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in NEW LIGHT, BELIEFS CLARIFIED, OR...JUST ROTTEN "FRUIT"?   
    How many times have some of us cut off a bruised section of, let’s say an apple, and still enjoyed eating the rest? We know that normally a small bruise doesn’t affect the taste of the apple.    The other day, I had one apple left of any fruit available; one which was clean of bruises, but was just beginning to rot.  I knew this, but felt I could cut off the soft brown blemish and eat the rest, just as I had done with a bruise.  Upon cutting, I could see the rot had traveled into the core, but I diligently scored out the discolored tissue with the hope of enjoying what remained.  The first bite told the story of bitter rottenness.  The unpleasant taste had traveled well through the apple; and yet, I made sure I ate as much as I normally would, all the while questioning why I pushed myself to eat such a terrible tasting piece of fruit.    
    Well, I’ll not be doing that again…ever. When an apple begins to rot, fungus has made its way into the flesh through a puncture in the skin.  It can happen from contaminated water during the harvesting process; and it is true that “one bad apple spoils the whole bunch”, through the off-gassing of the hormone “ethylene”.  An apple infested with fungal mold will spread and contaminate other fruit, looking for another host to grow on; and it successfully accomplishes rotting the whole bunch, all while taking place in the dark. To ripen, an apple needs the light from the sun; to rot and decay – disease and darkness. 
    It seems appropriate that trees are expressed in the Bible as the source of pure teachings, although there are those who are considered bearers of rotten fruit.  It is by their “fruit” that we recognize true or false prophets, or true or false teachers.  So, it is the anointed who are these trees outlined in the scriptures. Ps 1:1-3  Whatever their heart contains will be the nature of the “fruit” they produce and supply to their hearers.  Luke 6:43-45 
    Matt 12:33-37 -  Either make the tree good and its fruit will be good, or make the tree bad and its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you speak good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart. 35 A good person produces good things from his storeroom of good, and an evil person produces evil things from his storeroom of evil. 36 I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every worthless word they speak. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
    Matt 7:15-20  -  “Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. 16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
    Pearl Doxsey:
    “Trees are only a symbol which represents, teachers.
    If there were no symbolic "trees",
    there would be no witnesses of God, nor offering of spiritual food (knowledge).
    Each tree decides what kind of teacher they will be,
    and what sort of "fruit" they will produce and offer others to "eat".
    God equips them with wisdom so that they can enjoy
    the happiness of giving
    the knowledge of life.
    But God does not force them to produce what He wishes.
    Their mouth will produce fruit according to the abundance of their own heart.
    (Luke 6:45; Matt 12:33-37; 7:20; Heb 13:15; John 1:1,4;8:12;12:46;Prov 11:30;10:11;3:13,18; Eph 5:8-12)


    The Bible reveals that Satan's mouth, also bears "fruit"/teachings (Rev 16:13;12:15; Col2:8; 2 Cor 11:3; 1 Tim 6:20,21; Gen 3:4,5; Rev 2:24; James 3:15)
     
    Just as Jesus is "the way" and his teachings are the road to life; Satan's deceptions are the road which leads to destruction (2 Thess 2:9,10; Matt 7:13; Rev 12:9). All of Satan's teachings/"fruit" are lies, darkness, error/sin, and they lead to death John 8:44; Heb 2:14; James 1:15. To take in such teachings is to be deceived. Eve herself obtained this falsely-called knowledge (Gen 3:13; 1 Tim 6:20; James 3:15) which resulted in her death (Rom 5:12; Gen 2:17). 
    (From “Two Trees”, 4womaninthewilderness)
    Dear JWs, the phrase, “new light” which is assigned to new Watchtower teachings, is a twist of scripture to hide the rotten blemishes on the “fruit” your “trees” have produced for over a century. (to get a more comprehensive understanding of Prov 4:18 , read Prov 4:10-19)  The “new” apple looks perfect at first glance, until you take the time to examine it thoroughly and find the beginning evidence of decay.  You have a choice not to eat rotten “fruit; in fact, Jesus expects you to examine all teachings by anointed ones. It is only men who expect you to gratefully accept their time-tested rotten offerings.   2 Cor 11:19,20; Rev 13:11,14-17  From what many of us have experienced, we realize the majority of Watchtower’s teachings are rotten to the “core” of its existence. If you have not done so, I hope you search for the list of failed dates of Armageddon’s arrival, which affected other time-table dates and doctrine associated with them, such as the meaning of “this generation”.  1 John 4:1  
    Can you imagine Jesus offering “fruit” with any source of disease or blemish to his listeners, while he was on the earth? James 3:17
    He told his disciples:  “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—FRUIT THAT WILL LAST—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”  John 15:16
    Would this be possible without the light of life from the Son?  John 1:1,4;8:12  
     “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light— 9 for the fruit of the light consists of all goodness, righteousness, and truth -  10 testing what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Don’t participate in the fruitless works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what is done by them in secret.  Eph 5:8-12
    JWs, would you say your leaders’ “fruit” concerning the many historical changes to “this generation” ripened in the light of Christ, or did each new version emerge from the same diseased bunch, harboring mold in some dark WT cellar? It is a fact that many fruitless, worthless teachings have been tossed out by the organization. Titus 1:15,16  Will there be more?  The Bible states “Wormwood’s” waters contaminate true teachings and mislead many with a corrupted form of “nourishing food”. Heb 12:15; Rev 8:10,11;16:13   Please, put the pieces together; through my own experience, I perceived that what they offer you as “good fruit” is already riddled with disease, spawned in the dark recesses of evil men’s hearts.  Isa 28:14,15,7,8; Eph 2:1-3 
    1 Tim 6:20,21:  “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding irreverent and empty speech and contradictions from what is falsely called knowledge. 21 By professing it, some people have departed from the faith.”
    2 Thess 2:9,10:  “The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,10 and with every wicked deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth and so be saved.”
     
    Consider Pearl Doxsey’s article  – “Wormwood/The False Prophet/Armageddon”, 4womaninthewilderness
     
     
     



  8. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to TrueTomHarley in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I like the online study feature on the website. I like the cart witnessing. I do wish that we were not so all-over-the-board with the door-to-door but would more-or-less settle on a consistent presentation, like working with the Good News brochure—‘15 chapters, 15 hour discussions, after which you have a working knowledge of the Bible—not everything, but a foundation. It’s what we offer—do you want it or not?’
    This incremental doorstop study approach doesn’t work for me. I have little patience for it. It’s too hard to find people home to string several together. In view of the new privacy laws taking effect, the method is even going to be harder to pursue.
    And I like the idea that once you engage with people in any way and that they come to learn of your faith, everything that you do becomes a witness.
    Not to divert from you thread, though (as I sometimes do) Continue.
  9. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I simply quoted the Watchtower where it stated the following:
    *** ws16 January p. 21 par. 4 “We Want to Go With You” ***
    This means that the Jew is not just one person but represents the whole group of anointed ones.
    I never used the term "remnant" although I did reference the "anointed." I believe you already understand the reason for the somewhat different uses of these terms in our publications.
    Thanks for saying you want to get it right. This is not just about my opinion, though. I am happy to express my own opinion,  even if my own opinion differs somewhat from the Watchtower's explanation. But this was also a case of wondering why John seems so sure that this verse cannot refer to any group like the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's almost as if he is sure that somewhere there is a truly anointed person, or group of such persons, who it should be obvious that we should be following. Perhaps they don't exist yet, in John's opinion, or they do and they are just difficult to find among all the "noise." 
    We can get to all of this, but I had a few other follow up questions for John, for which I had hoped to get his range of opinion first on what the verse could mean. I wondered just how different John's expectation (for others) would be from the Watchtower's explanation. For example, isn't it possible that John might see it possible that there are several different religious groups each focusing on a different kind of ministry. Some might be doing great work in helping people understand certain important doctrines, but make mistakes in other areas. Perhaps there is a very good religious-based ministry that does an excellent job pushing for legislative reform, religious institutional procedural changes, and general social reform in CSA matters. Would he expect that group to also teach the correct view of Trinity, Hell, Neutrality, etc.? I'm wondering just how "perfect" he would expect any human religious organization to be if it were to specialize, say, in pushing sound Bible doctrinal reform. John has actually said enough already so that I realize I don't need to ask him all the questions I had wanted.
    My own opinions here are somewhat separate. Although on the matter of Zechariah 8, I think that chapter really does provide an excellent and important image for us to remember about our own attempts to make converts to true Christianity. Jesus gave the illustration that just like a tree is known for its fruits, we would also attract persons who want to join our particular Christian brotherhood. Also, we know that 'by this people will recognize if we are truly Christ's disciples, if we have love among ourselves.' It reminds us that converts aren't just made from a door to door ministry. Just as an example, the Seventh Day Adventists started out similarly in time to when the Watchtower organization started out, yet they have no specific door*to*door focus, and have grown to nearly 20 million adherents. JTR has mentioned something similar when he says that if we are really doing something right, and are blessed by Jehovah for it, we might expect people to knocking on our door instead of the other way around. (This is not an argument that the SDA's are doing it right and we are doing it wrong.)
    On these additional issues about my personal views and opinions about other sheep, great crowd, remnant, body of Christ, anointed, etc., I have already begun answering, and I'm sure you will find plenty to oppose.
  10. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    So was World War II, but it's important to know about such things, as I see that you recognize the "dueling banjo" reference. That means Ah saw the movie, and presumably you ALSO saw the movie, "Deliverance".
    I am surprised that Hollywood's ratings get such respect.
    Of course, there are people who never get over the fact they were born in bed with a naked woman ....
    (no cartoons for THIS one ...)
  11. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    ... forget what I said 'bout regaining your sanity, Billy.

    Would I be an apostate if I told you that the original Paradise was the Garden of Eatin', and what made it a Paradise is that they had pizza delivery?
  12. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    My mother was cooked in a crematorium, 1200 degrees for three hours.
    She made an ash out of herself!
    Lighten up Billy ... you may even regain your sanity!  You will certainly be a lot happier, and more pleasant company!
  13. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    You can't fix stupid ... even with Duct Tape ... BUT WITH DUCT TAPE YOU CAN MUFFLE THE SOUND !
  14. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    There was a strong odor,  where I could smell BillytheKids46's mother cooking in the kitchen.
    There was a strong odor where I could smell,  BillytheKids46's mother cooking in the kitchen.
    There,  was a strong odor where I could smell BillytheKids46's mother,  cooking in the kitchen.
    Where you put commas are important!



  15. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    @BillyTheKid46   You believe I'm "pretending" to be an anointed one.  Yet, you fully swallow whatever the GB tells you about themselves.  I'm sure this is because I refuse to obey them and their lies; lies not only about themselves, but about applying the teachings of Christ.  Remember when you said just recently, "I bow down to no man"?  Well, so also I do not bow down to any man; including any who desire to control my spirituality.  That is between me and Christ; not 8 men who feel they have been given authority over anointed individuals, or ANY individual.  And many of these people want to serve the Father and Jesus Christ.  It matters not if you believe that I am pretending.  I answer only to Christ, who is my Head.  Eph 5:23
    Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation, 18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison. 19 But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, 20 “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.”
    21 And when they heard that, they entered the temple early in the morning and taught. But the high priest and those with him came and called the council together, with all the elders of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
    But when the officers came and did not find them in the prison, they returned and reported, 23 saying, “Indeed we found the prison shut securely, and the guards standing outside before the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside!” 24 Now when the high priest, the captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard these things, they wondered what the outcome would be. 25 So one came and told them, saying, “Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!”
    Then the captain went with the officers and brought them without violence, for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned. 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!”
    29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.  Acts 5:17-29
    You will find a similar scenario happen when an anointed one teaches in the name of Christ Jesus, and not in the name of an organization.  Your "high priests" condemn any preaching that doesn't include "organization".  They cannot handle "New Jerusalem" within the anointed ones,  (1 Cor 3:16,17) to be filled with doctrine other than their own.   Rev 13:16,17
    I am very grateful that I have been released from WT's prison of false authority.  Col 2:8
  16. Sad
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    So has the Watchtower, up until now.  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200021176
    ANOINTED CHRISTIANS
    (Also called 144,000; Anointed; Body of Christ; Bride of Christ; Chosen Ones; Elect; Holy Nation; Israel of God; Kingdom Class; Little Flock; New Creation; New Nation; Royal House; Royal Priesthood; Sanctuary Class; Sons of Levi; Spirit Begotten; Spiritual Israel; Spiritual Sons)
    Teachings always change; lies change into more lies, even the truth gradually changes into a lie.  Today's "Body of Christ" taught by the Watchtower, includes every JW.  I only know this from hearing it on a JW broadcast about building a convention center, I believe.  The elder used the term "Body of Christ" in reference to all JWs.   
    Rev 16:13,14
     
     
  17. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from BillyTheKid46 in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    @JW Insider  Wow, so much to try to answer. 
    However I'm glad you mentioned this bit :  Others may have mental or emotional problems 
    The GB / Writing department actually wrote this. AND NOW we see people such a s TTH and BtK using it.
    Anyone that disagrees with the GB / JW Org are seen as having mental or emotional problems.  Do you honestly think the GB / Writing dept' didn't know that this would become the norm' ? This is how low they have sunken. 
    Next :- The GB / Org says about the Anointed. 
     They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else.
    What utter nonsense. What the GB are really saying here is that THEY do not understand the Bible because THEY do not have the Holy Spirit from God. 
    There would be NO POINT in following the JEW if the JEW didn't know the right direction. If others that are not Anointed know and understand as much or even more about God's word, and it the same others were receiving as much or more Holy Spirit from God then why would those others want to go in the wrong direction just to follow So called anointed that haven't got a clue ? Do you see how your GB / Writing department make themselves look so stupid ? 
    The Watchtower / GB / JW Org put in such a very poor argument for the GB being superior to the other Anointed. 
    As I think you mentioned (well you did write a lot  ) the 'Faithful and discreet slave class' are the complete number of Anointed here on Earth at this time, BUT in my opinion, the GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed still on earth. The scripture at Luke 14 v11 'For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled ...'  I think your GB are in for a big fall.
    Again your GB / Writing dept write :- 
    Although anointed ones feel that it is an honor to be invited to go to heaven, they do not expect others to treat them in a special way. ...
    Um, the GB, DO expect others to treat them in a special way, because the GB expect every JW to follow them and to believe their every word. 
    Quote you :  the Governing Body had already pointed to themselves as the ones  representing the faithful slave. 
    *** ws11 7/15 p. 24 par. 9 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
    They show us that Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave to teach us the truth. Sometimes the Governing Body, who represents the faithful and discreet slave, reviews how we understand certain truths.
    Don't really need much more proof positive that the GB are acting as dictators here. Telling congregants not to make contact with others of the Anointed. Telling the others of the Anointed not to make contact with each other. Telling all congregants that only they, the GB, have the right to give instruction to the JW Org and all its members. 
    Sorry I have to go to an auction now to collect a few things I've won. Talk again later, John 
     
     
  18. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Voice from heaven? I do not think even the greatest believer among JW would expect a voice from heaven. :)) It is out of sense to even have a little thought/idea about such possibility. Of, course some of WT magazine editors and members maybe have such idea, and send spiritual vibrations to readers, how JHVH somehow whispering  to writers of WT publication, what to put in columns. 
    Reputation. That is of course very important. Jericho citizens also heard about Israel reputation. How they are successful warriors and destroying all on their way. In this case fear about own life was motivated non-Jew tribes to take military reputation of Israel in consideration. 
    Reputation of modern Congregation in this last two century, showed some results that worldly people take as important. On other hand,  WTJWORG preoccupation about own reputation bring on light many issues of not transparency and even hiding of things that is bad.
    PR through publishers and publication want to show only "bright side" of WT Organizations/Corporations and JW religion. Not talking openly about "taboo issues" and negativity of Instructional and Doctrinal rules, beliefs not bring to positive reputation.  
  19. Like
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    @JW Insider  Wow, so much to try to answer. 
    However I'm glad you mentioned this bit :  Others may have mental or emotional problems 
    The GB / Writing department actually wrote this. AND NOW we see people such a s TTH and BtK using it.
    Anyone that disagrees with the GB / JW Org are seen as having mental or emotional problems.  Do you honestly think the GB / Writing dept' didn't know that this would become the norm' ? This is how low they have sunken. 
    Next :- The GB / Org says about the Anointed. 
     They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else.
    What utter nonsense. What the GB are really saying here is that THEY do not understand the Bible because THEY do not have the Holy Spirit from God. 
    There would be NO POINT in following the JEW if the JEW didn't know the right direction. If others that are not Anointed know and understand as much or even more about God's word, and it the same others were receiving as much or more Holy Spirit from God then why would those others want to go in the wrong direction just to follow So called anointed that haven't got a clue ? Do you see how your GB / Writing department make themselves look so stupid ? 
    The Watchtower / GB / JW Org put in such a very poor argument for the GB being superior to the other Anointed. 
    As I think you mentioned (well you did write a lot  ) the 'Faithful and discreet slave class' are the complete number of Anointed here on Earth at this time, BUT in my opinion, the GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed still on earth. The scripture at Luke 14 v11 'For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled ...'  I think your GB are in for a big fall.
    Again your GB / Writing dept write :- 
    Although anointed ones feel that it is an honor to be invited to go to heaven, they do not expect others to treat them in a special way. ...
    Um, the GB, DO expect others to treat them in a special way, because the GB expect every JW to follow them and to believe their every word. 
    Quote you :  the Governing Body had already pointed to themselves as the ones  representing the faithful slave. 
    *** ws11 7/15 p. 24 par. 9 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
    They show us that Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave to teach us the truth. Sometimes the Governing Body, who represents the faithful and discreet slave, reviews how we understand certain truths.
    Don't really need much more proof positive that the GB are acting as dictators here. Telling congregants not to make contact with others of the Anointed. Telling the others of the Anointed not to make contact with each other. Telling all congregants that only they, the GB, have the right to give instruction to the JW Org and all its members. 
    Sorry I have to go to an auction now to collect a few things I've won. Talk again later, John 
     
     
  20. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I probably wasn't clear. The Watchtower considered the 'faithful and discreet slave' to be the complete number of anointed here on the earth (from about 1879 to 1897, and then again from about 1927 to 2011). But recently it has become a small, identifiable group of persons we can know individually by name: the members of the Governing Body. (Between 1897 and 1927 it was taught to be one person we could know individually by name: Charles T. Russell.)
  21. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    The GB use the argument that many are fed by the hands of a few --and only 8 "NT" Bible writers fed the entire 1st century congregations. And since you can't practically follow many different anointed persons, at least there is a practical way to follow a few. One of the points is that you can't necessarily trust that just any person who claims to be anointed is truly anointed. There really are many claimants that most Witnesses would consider to be just people with mental or emotional problems. Most of us have known such persons in our local congregations. I think this is already a 'given' that other Witnesses realize and the GB are acknowledging it. Of course, it's clear that the GB use this fact with the purpose of adding evidence that only a few persons can really be trusted to represent the anointed. This should lead us to agree with them that Jesus trusts the faithful slave [Governing Body] and therefore we should, too.
    This is a product, unfortunately, of being so absolutely sure one has the truth. Anyone who would deviate from obvious, rational truth must have a deviant mind. They'd have to be crazy to give up on all the truth based on a few mistakes here and there. Anyone who does so is some kind of apostate, like a dog returning to his vomit, and must be "mentally diseased."
    I agree that this is a dangerous result of the reminder (acknowledgment) that SOME really do have mental or emotional problems, and we should be wary of giving anything they say too much importance. You will notice that whenever I say something that differs from the GB's current teachings in the WT, that someone like BTK will surely be around to try to discredit it so that no one gives it too much importance.
    (I think this is actually a safeguard so that no one takes only my own opinions and experiences as something to follow without questioning them first. I welcome the push back, especially when it can help me to further endeavor to make sure of all things.)
    You say that this is an admission by the GB that they don't really have holy spirit to understand the Bible. It's probably more of a caution not to give just anyone a 'pass.' We shouldn't quote someone who says they are anointed on some doctrinal point, just because we heard it from an 'anointed' person. But the word "necessarily" probably also reminds us that some anointed might get more holy spirit than others, a possible way of saying that we could expect the GB to get more holy spirit to understand Bible truths whenever Jehovah deems it necessary.
    I don't think they are saying they don't have a clue. I think they are actually (overall) saying to trust them for now, even though things can still become better and clearer, but definitely don't just automatically trust any person claiming to be anointed who disagrees with us. This is practical advice for unity. It might not ALWAYS be the correct advice in all circumstances, but elsewhere they have already admitted that not all their advice will turn out to be correct or Biblical. But then again, what religion can you think of where people are told to just follow anyone who claims authority of some kind?
  22. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I found this interesting: They heard. They heard, question is From Whom? Hear and say? 
    This same "Jew" aka GB are those who made self claim about their appointed position in 1919 and they told this to the people who joined them in this belief and in other various beliefs.
    In Parallel time/moment this "joined" people (later called great crowed) went to the streets to actively inform other people, worldly people and told them how they know this particular "Jews" who are baked by god himself and ask them to join in Proclamation about this.
    Well, impetus about WHO are JEWS, was made/generated by "self" appointed Bible Students in 1919. The Word; "God is with you" is not came by god's revelation to worldly people who later join the organization. No, the words came from Not Inspired, Doctrinal and Instructional Error Prone source.    
  23. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I wonder why the Anointed of God, although self admittedly NOT inspired of God, the ones supplying "food at the proper time", etc., seem to be completely devoid of common sense of any kind, on any subject.
    They have been struggling with the CSA problem for YEARS now, and are seemingly no closer to a solution than they were five years ago.
    IT'S NOT THAT HARD !!!!!
    This is NOT Quantum Chromodynamics!
     

  24. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I was referring to John Butler as the person who has repeatedly referenced the "10 men who take hold of the skirt of a Jew." I hadn't realized it if "Witness" had also repeatedly referenced this. 
  25. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I think the Watchtower's interpretation is clear. In many ways it matches up with yours, John.
    The WT interpretation is that the "Jew" is the truly anointed class of Christians, and the "ten men" are persons out of all the nations who are not of the anointed class but who look to them for guidance, a good example, etc. These non-anointed are shown joining with these anointed in some way.
    Historically, if we were to accept that the truly anointed persons were represented by the 'governing leaders' of the Bible Students / Jehovah's Witnesses in the last century or so, then the very fact that they were joined (beginning especially around 1935) by a much larger group who then identified themselves as non-anointed seems like a perfect fulfillment.
    It is easy to see why, in that 2012 life experience article, a person of the "great crowd" who was obviously very enamored with his periodic association with members of the anointed, felt that he was seeing this prophecy fulfilled in his own case. Several of those anointed with whom he had repeated contact served on the Governing Body, or would later serve on the Governing Body. This was clearly a sub-theme of the 2012 Watchtower article based on the following quotes/excerpts:
    but also several anointed brothers, including Pryce Hughes, Edgar Clay, and Jack Barr, who became a member of the Governing Body. One of my fellow students, Lloyd Barry; one of the instructors, Albert Schroeder; and John Booth, overseer of Kingdom Farm (where Gilead School was located) later became members of the Governing Body. During that time, I got to know such pillars as Milton Henschel, Karl Klein, Nathan Knorr, T. J. (Bud) Sullivan, and Lyman Swingle, all of whom once served on the Governing Body. I have had the privilege of periodically returning to world headquarters in New York. During those visits, I received good advice from different members of the Governing Body. So, while the "Jew" represents the anointed class, we are subtly reminded that the anointed class is represented by the Governing Body, considered to be the core representatives of "Christ's brothers."
    In the past, of course, when one said "Christ's brothers are the faithful slave" it meant all of the anointed.
    *** w09 10/15 p. 16 par. 15 “You Are My Friends” ***
    Therefore, the primary way that those with the earthly hope demonstrate their desire to be friends with Christ is by supporting the faithful slave class.
    Technically, the "Jew" in Zechariah still does mean all of the anointed, not just the GB. But even before the doctrinal change making them the same entity, the Governing Body had already pointed to themselves as the ones  representing the faithful slave. 
    *** ws11 7/15 p. 24 par. 9 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
    They show us that Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave to teach us the truth. Sometimes the Governing Body, who represents the faithful and discreet slave, reviews how we understand certain truths.
    So the "Jew" in Zechariah 8 is not just another representation of the Governing Body. But based on the above, it is still intended to be the practical conclusion, when it comes to defining who, we, the "other sheep" firmly hang onto for guidance and direction.
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