JOHN BUTLER

Quote @TrueTomHarley " Every project needs leadership. Once you grant persons that leadership, you refrain from undercutting them at every step. Why in the world should that be so hard to understand? "
So Tom, did you grant the GB leadership ? Did you make the GB into the 'Faithful and discreet slave' ? 
Being God's true representatives here on Earth is not just any old project. Surely it should never even be compared to worldly projects.
So, yes, some kind of organisation in needed. However you know me and how I go back over things soooo much. So I'm back to that scripture about the 10 men - Jew 
American Standard Version
Zechariah 8:23 (ASV) Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.   My personal opinion is that the GB are not that 'Jew' .  So i haven't 'granted those persons that leadership'.  And I would suggest that they granted themselves that leadership. You didn't 'vote them in' did you ?     Maybe you should consider what exactly a person is taught when they start having a 'Bible study' with JW's.   I would say that they are not taught the 'workings' of JW Org.  People believe that they will be studying God's word, but in fact they end up studying Man's word from a book, which only losely considers God's word.    Many of the books that have been used as study books are now long gone and would cause embarrassment to 'modern day' JW's. The GB hide this by saying they have 'new light'.     So whereas you may like to say I have mental illness and am infantile, I think I have reasonable thinking ability and at this point I have made a fair to good choice to not be part of the JW Org.    Just a couple of points Tom before i go. To quote you  That does not mean that when I appear on a forum where the majority seek its destruction and level one attack on it after another, I will say “you know, you’ve raise a good point there.”   First point. Do you really think it is the aim of most on here to totally destroy the JW Org  ? 2. Does that then mean that Jesus was seeking the destruction of the Pharisees when he criticized them ? 3. Why  then are you on this forum ? 4. Will you ever say on here, “you know, you’ve raise a good point there.” ?    Have a great day Tom and all of you. 

“but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” 2 Thess 1:7-8
I’m not one to pound verses like this to death, but there is something to be said for not misrepresenting scripture, particularly when you claim to own it, presume to explain it for everyone else’s benefit, and quote it more than everyone else here combined.

In the spirit of full disclosure:
I wanted my online name to be just Tom Harley, but I found that it was already taken on various platforms. So I thought of RealTomHarley, but I didn’t want to be confused with Trump. So I settled on TrueTomHarley.
It has a certain ring to it that squares with us referring to the faith as “the truth,” but I did not choose it for that reason.

My avatar was just a quick frame grab from one of the Society's videos. It's of interest to me, because the video is about the attitudes of various Christians who were considering whether and when to get out of Jerusalem in the time just leading up to its destruction in 70 C.E. Some were concerned about keeping their businesses going, or other mundane interests, and some were ready to leave it all immediately upon first indication of the Roman siege.
My first name I chose for the forum was the "Bible's Advocate" (about 4+ years ago, now) and I was just about to create that name for participation here (originally jw-archive.org) when I realized that there were several people at the time who were making incorrect assumptions about what it was really like at Bethel in the 1970's and 1980's. I was surprised that anyone would just make up things about people at Bethel during that time period (or repeat things that others had obviously made up). So I thought perhaps I would just stick with talking about my own experiences and opinions based on working inside the JW headquarters (Brooklyn Bethel) during those years. So at the last minute I changed my name to "JW Insider" without really thinking through how it might sound to others.
I haven't really liked the name, but after leaving it for a few weeks, I decided it would be confusing to change it. I never wanted to use my real name because I knew that I would probably be giving details of certain experiences at Bethel and in congregations I have been in over the years. This would not only identify me, it could lead to identifying the persons I speak about or quote. Not all the persons I speak about would want to be identified. So, with some important exceptions, I don't usually identify a specific brother or sister I give details about, unless that person has died.

This is so silly. It is so infantile. 
Every project needs leadership. Once you grant persons that leadership, you refrain from undercutting them at every step. Why in the world should that be so hard to understand?
You don’t set 15 rows back and swipe at the bus driver, “you missed that turn, you could have avoided that pothole, you hit the brakes too hard, why didn’t you know there was a roadblock ahead?” You know that the roads are poorly maintained, that the route is unfamiliar, and that the weather is terrible.”
There are any number of things I am not crazy about with regard to the theocratic organization. If you read with any sort of critical skills you would know that. That does not mean that when I appear on a forum where the majority seek its destruction and level one attack on it after another, I will say “you know, you’ve raise a good point there.”
 
 

It seems how He was "abolished" ( in several different ways) religion, made by Him alone, repeatedly, as you noticed too. One of the reason for that was  the manner of how The Representatives of god aka Priesthood and Nation aka People practiced religion. He also made practical moves to abolished any other Organized Religion in the Jew's  neighbourhood. 
For second part about Temple, it was very clear from The Very First Reaction made by god, (and in my opinion, the very first reaction or gut, first response, is in most cases true and authentic)  that He is NOT Interested for Temple aka Church aka Fixed Place for HIM ...... or, as my opinion, for Institutional  gathering of people inside such Structure - Building. God was felt happy to be with Israelite in the Tent (as Theirs and His Home). 
 

Around here it is my way or the HWHY, John. Get used to it. 
The Librarian (that old hen) like me better than you.

.... let somebody please remind me how has ended One and Only True organized/institutional Religion started in 1513 B.C.E. under Mt. Sion? (corr at 11.59 SINAI) ......... type and anti type example? or mere, simple, reality fact and evidence of .... something?:))
...or we can go by this road too: Jew religion existing until today. And by this Observation that Institutional Religion not ended by Jesus Death as some interpretations of NT verses implied. What this talks to us? That this religion is still One and Only True because JHVH was (and still He is) source and origin of It?

You are correct BillyTheKid46 anonymous avatar, whoever you REALLY are:
You did not make a direct connection of your insults to me, immediately preceding that delusional commentary, which was not intended as a direct connection by insult to you.  
I was responding to a well established pattern of you calling people and their concerns garbage, fools, and cowards, etc., and your generalized sanctimonious condemnation of those posting here that think differently than you, that you consider spiritual dullards.
However, it was not my intent to insult you ........  merely highlight your delusional commentary.
I apologize for any insult.

well, how about ...... Organized/Institutional  Religion ?!

Is this the best reply you can manage, Billy?
 
ANOTHER false flag?

Not unless you use your REAL name .... you have not.
Hiding behind a Billy the KId avatar is, when you brag about showing "true colors", is flying a false flag.
The HYPOCRISY is why you get called on it, and others do not.
I am interested in WHY you chose such a despicable character as your Avatar?
Unless of course you really ARE like Henry McCarty, AKA William H. Bonney,  who was a murderer and a thief, and an amoral person.
... and the false flag you fly hides the "Jolly Roger".
(?)

Oh dear poor billy is throwing his rattles out of his pram again, poor boy is having another tantrum.
Go to the top of the page billy and read what it says and stop making yourself look so stupid. 
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES OPEN CLUB. 
Can we get one thing straight. This is a JW forum. This forum is about JW Org and how it is run / controlled. 
Get a life billy, go and have a coffee or something. 
 
 

@TrueTomHarley  "No, John, you are reaching for straws, trying to manufacture a “reality” that does not exist. "
Um, well I've just given an example that it does exist Tom. 
And investigations are now going on in many countries so it may show that it has existed even more than you like to think. 
Cases have been going to court for a few years now, it's not exactly new news.
And if you read @JW Insider comment you may notice why the higher ups 'appear' squeaky clean.  But it seems you need to serve your GB and it's Org so you are blinding yourself to reality. So be it Tom but I think you will have to face the truth one day. 

Quote  JW Insider  "Also, in general, I think the evidence is strong that the higher up a person is in the organization, the more he has been protected from scandal, because that scandal was thought to reflect so badly when it is someone known by all the Witnesses of a specific country or, at least once in the past, even internationally..... " 
@JW Insider Thank you for a very well thought out and sensible comment. Very balanced. 
I particularly liked, and laughed at, this quote above. You are not really''fanning the flames' of my thoughts though as I've felt that it was that situation for a long time. Even the GB may have skeletons in their closets. 

No Tom it was not what i was implying at all. Anna seems to to have a vivid imagination.
Maybe my wording wasn't as it should have been or maybe English English is different to American English, or different to the American way of thinking. 
I was not suggesting that JW Org was a porn ring in disguise, though it is possible that there could be small porn rings within the JW Org Earthwide.  After all it has been suggested that some people join the JW Org for just that reason, to abuse young children.
However back to what I was saying originally. I will reword it.
Original comment : 
Do you believe ANY of the cases, from ANY country in this earth, that say an Elder was allowed to keep his position and status and his conduct was kept hidden, so he was able to abuse more children or abuse the same child on a regular basis ?
Revised comment : Do you believe any of the cases of child abuse within the JW Org, from any country in this earth ? Do you believe that any of the Elders that did continuously abuse children in the JW Org were known to be doing so ?  Do you think it was possible for those Elders to continue to abuse children because they were allowed to keep their position as Elder even though it was known they had abused children in the past ?  OR do you think that every complaint against every Elder concerning child abuse, is a lie by apostates ? 
TTH I don't expect you to answer any of these questions, but Anna might  as she seems to think it involves her. 
As for Anna's comment : " You, as a reasonable person, and I am assuming you are reasonable, has to see that no human organization (unless it is what I mentioned) will knowingly and purposefully condone child molestation."
2 Kings 16 v2.
Aʹhaz was 20 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 16 years in Jerusalem. He did not do what was right in the eyes of Jehovah his God as David his forefather had done. Instead, he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and he even made his own son pass through the fire, following the detestable practices of the nations that Jehovah had driven out from before the Israelites. 
2 Kings 21 v 6 concerning Manassah 
 6  And he made his own son pass through the fire; he practiced magic, looked for omens,m and appointed spirit mediums and fortune-tellers.n He did on a grand scale what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, to offend him.
But of course JW Org is much better than the Nation of Israel    isn't it.  Or maybe not .................
 

This may have been a reality, but not because the elders were known to be doing so, but rather because no one believed they really were doing it. If it was a victims word against an elder, the elder's denial may have been believed over the victim. Big difference.
Thank you @Anna  I rest my case. 

Quote @Anna Most churches separate kids from the parents. It is JW kids who stay with their parents all the time.
Your JW 'world' must be totally different to the JW 'world' I knew.  Children were always sitting with different people, in fact if a family had lots of children then their children could be spread all round the KH, each child with a different person. It was seen as being helpful to the parents, so that the parents 'could actually get some spiritual food from the meeting'.  The parents had to gather up their children at the end of the meeting, which was never easy as the children used to 'go a bit wild' in the hall after the meeting was finished. Must have been around 30 to 40 children in my ex congregation. One family had seven children and they never all sat with their parents through public talk and W/t.   
 
 

Billy showing true colours i see. He says he's the 'only one in a den of thieves to speak out' yet he still hides behind his cowboy image. I thought Billy the Kid was a thief actually  
But more importantly it seems that after twelve months (well it seems that long) I'm actually reading some sensible balanced comments about 'my main issue' (as TTH loves to call it) .
Thank you @JW Insider for opening up the can of worms that most JW's want to keep shut. 
And if anyone thinks I'm rubbing my hands with glee, no I'm just a little relieved that some truth is now coming out. 
 

Billy showing true colours i see. He says he's the 'only one in a den of thieves to speak out' yet he still hides behind his cowboy image. I thought Billy the Kid was a thief actually  
But more importantly it seems that after twelve months (well it seems that long) I'm actually reading some sensible balanced comments about 'my main issue' (as TTH loves to call it) .
Thank you @JW Insider for opening up the can of worms that most JW's want to keep shut. 
And if anyone thinks I'm rubbing my hands with glee, no I'm just a little relieved that some truth is now coming out. 
 

I don't know of any cases like that, but I do know (personally) of one prominent, influential elder (no longer living) who was removed as elder because of notoriety, but remained a pioneer. I don't think today he would be pioneering.

Like cultured people fleeing a fart in the concert hall, they can’t get it out of their Bibles quick enough.

You were probably the only one to create that assumption from what I said. And I don't actually believe that even you really got that impression from what I said.
Strangely (or perhaps not so strangely) you were the only one to make such a sick and provoking statement out of what I said.

Give me a break,
yes, speaking  to someone is very important just like Jesus did.
however, his presence was more important to show others that HE WAS SENT BY HIS FATHER JEHOVAH. 
The same is with US, our present is a witness to the people that JEHOVAH'S SERVANTS are there sent by Jehovah , no matter if we speak to them or not.
so. its NOT a cop out
LOVE AND PEACE TO YOU
 

It is true, that there are churches with "Sunday school" for children, happening while the parents are attending services.  Although, as a Catholic that was never the case for my years growing up in the religion.  However, even though children remain with their parents in the kingdom hall, abuse has taken place during the meeting, in the restroom.