JOHN BUTLER

amazing method :)) Did their women know and support such inventive idea ? Did four of them ironing clothes in this manner to other people in Bethel too, and to their wife's especially? What were the reactions/responds/ from bro/sis?
Did Bethel elders, Committee introduce this as standard for ironing and reject electric machines? Did they buy bricks of all shapes and of various weights, or consider to buy some concrete bricks?   
This stories come to be LEGENDS? And this is how false come to be true :)))
Thanks for this  stories Tom.

... Doya think it might have something to do with your attention span being about a minute and a half?
You have freely admitted not reading MANY things all the way through, not viewing videos all the way through, etc. ... or not viewing something because you thought it might be infected with a virus .... many times.
I think I see a pattern here.
YIKES!
Perhaps you can schedule it for some day when you are not washing your socks!
 

And  I used to think that people invited to Bethel were spiritually mature. Now it's a kindergarten is it ? 

Quote @JW Insider Drinking stories were always rampant at Bethel. There were always stories of higher-ups getting drunk, but this was likely fueled by younger Bethelites who were looking for excuses for their own behavior. The cooks who worked an after-dinner late shift only available to "higher ups" had the most consistent stories, but I still saw signs of exaggeration. But I have seen young Bethelites get drunk, and it was shameful and embarrassing. (For some 19 and 20 year olds, Bethel would have been their first real experience with alcohol.) I have seen housekeepers gathering liquor bottles from rooms and the sum total would have surprised anyone. I was sometimes surprised that people were periodically sent home for stealing and immorality, but never (that I knew of) for excessive drinking.
I don't even have to go looking for faults in the Org. People seem quite happy to reveal the faults on here.. It's kinda funny then that some folks say i have an agenda.    Drunks in Bethal, shows the lack of spiritual wisdom doesn't it ?  Where is God's 'guidance there ? 
As for the GB pretending to be 'poor', i bet they have country mansions for summer holidays  
 

Ah I see, conform when it suits you  . But at least you got the point of my earlier comment. 
Quote "And of course, to YOU ... your thinking seems normal."
Wrong, nothing about me is normal.  Psychiatrists and psychologists have had a great time dealing with me. Some one must have made some money from the tablets too 
Adam was created normal. The rest of us just suffer our strange ways. 
When a person starts to understand that they are not 'normal' then life becomes a lot easier. 
As for your 'agenda driven thinking.' bit, well you are starting to sound like TTH. 
I have no agendas, my life is too full since leaving that Org. Hence I spend less time on here.  
Unless of course you mean exposing the GB and the JW Org for what it really is, that is called having purpose. Meaningful warnings to others is not an agenda. Just because some folks like to hide behind the curtain and pretend all is well, doesn't mean that in reality all is well. 
 

The rumor about "higher-ups" is not directly related, but it was related to the "gifts" of prime cut steaks that were sent periodically from Watchtower Farms to Brooklyn. These were never served to the Bethel family, but I knew one of the cooks who was sworn to secrecy about who got them and how often. There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility, and this was not a "Governing Body" thing. It was more of a long time seniority thing, which will necessarily (sometimes) overlap. Since these steaks were served semi-privately as specially cooked meals, they could be served with alcohol, but some brothers were said to have already served themselves alcohol before coming down to get their meal. Certain brothers became known for this behavior, even to the point of using very foul language to the cooks and waiters. If you want to keep a secret the last thing you want to do is curse out a cook or a waiter
My my, it gets even better.  Imagine telling all this to a new bible study. 
But of course everyone is equal, oh wait a minute we have 'higher ups' getting prime steak, served privately. 
After all 'There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility'. 
And brothers are all loving and kind and very spiritual at bethel, oh no there are brothers that get drunk and swear at the cooks and waiters. 
It's shows itself as being just another big organisation with those at the top living off of those at the bottom. 
No wonder the GB do not receive God's holy spirit. 
 
 

And  I used to think that people invited to Bethel were spiritually mature. Now it's a kindergarten is it ? 

The rumor about "higher-ups" is not directly related, but it was related to the "gifts" of prime cut steaks that were sent periodically from Watchtower Farms to Brooklyn. These were never served to the Bethel family, but I knew one of the cooks who was sworn to secrecy about who got them and how often. There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility, and this was not a "Governing Body" thing. It was more of a long time seniority thing, which will necessarily (sometimes) overlap. Since these steaks were served semi-privately as specially cooked meals, they could be served with alcohol, but some brothers were said to have already served themselves alcohol before coming down to get their meal. Certain brothers became known for this behavior, even to the point of using very foul language to the cooks and waiters. If you want to keep a secret the last thing you want to do is curse out a cook or a waiter
My my, it gets even better.  Imagine telling all this to a new bible study. 
But of course everyone is equal, oh wait a minute we have 'higher ups' getting prime steak, served privately. 
After all 'There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility'. 
And brothers are all loving and kind and very spiritual at bethel, oh no there are brothers that get drunk and swear at the cooks and waiters. 
It's shows itself as being just another big organisation with those at the top living off of those at the bottom. 
No wonder the GB do not receive God's holy spirit. 
 
 

Quote @JW Insider Drinking stories were always rampant at Bethel. There were always stories of higher-ups getting drunk, but this was likely fueled by younger Bethelites who were looking for excuses for their own behavior. The cooks who worked an after-dinner late shift only available to "higher ups" had the most consistent stories, but I still saw signs of exaggeration. But I have seen young Bethelites get drunk, and it was shameful and embarrassing. (For some 19 and 20 year olds, Bethel would have been their first real experience with alcohol.) I have seen housekeepers gathering liquor bottles from rooms and the sum total would have surprised anyone. I was sometimes surprised that people were periodically sent home for stealing and immorality, but never (that I knew of) for excessive drinking.
I don't even have to go looking for faults in the Org. People seem quite happy to reveal the faults on here.. It's kinda funny then that some folks say i have an agenda.    Drunks in Bethal, shows the lack of spiritual wisdom doesn't it ?  Where is God's 'guidance there ? 
As for the GB pretending to be 'poor', i bet they have country mansions for summer holidays  
 

The rumor about "higher-ups" is not directly related, but it was related to the "gifts" of prime cut steaks that were sent periodically from Watchtower Farms to Brooklyn. These were never served to the Bethel family, but I knew one of the cooks who was sworn to secrecy about who got them and how often. There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility, and this was not a "Governing Body" thing. It was more of a long time seniority thing, which will necessarily (sometimes) overlap. Since these steaks were served semi-privately as specially cooked meals, they could be served with alcohol, but some brothers were said to have already served themselves alcohol before coming down to get their meal. Certain brothers became known for this behavior, even to the point of using very foul language to the cooks and waiters. If you want to keep a secret the last thing you want to do is curse out a cook or a waiter
My my, it gets even better.  Imagine telling all this to a new bible study. 
But of course everyone is equal, oh wait a minute we have 'higher ups' getting prime steak, served privately. 
After all 'There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility'. 
And brothers are all loving and kind and very spiritual at bethel, oh no there are brothers that get drunk and swear at the cooks and waiters. 
It's shows itself as being just another big organisation with those at the top living off of those at the bottom. 
No wonder the GB do not receive God's holy spirit. 
 
 

The rumor about "higher-ups" is not directly related, but it was related to the "gifts" of prime cut steaks that were sent periodically from Watchtower Farms to Brooklyn. These were never served to the Bethel family, but I knew one of the cooks who was sworn to secrecy about who got them and how often. There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility, and this was not a "Governing Body" thing. It was more of a long time seniority thing, which will necessarily (sometimes) overlap. Since these steaks were served semi-privately as specially cooked meals, they could be served with alcohol, but some brothers were said to have already served themselves alcohol before coming down to get their meal. Certain brothers became known for this behavior, even to the point of using very foul language to the cooks and waiters. If you want to keep a secret the last thing you want to do is curse out a cook or a waiter
My my, it gets even better.  Imagine telling all this to a new bible study. 
But of course everyone is equal, oh wait a minute we have 'higher ups' getting prime steak, served privately. 
After all 'There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility'. 
And brothers are all loving and kind and very spiritual at bethel, oh no there are brothers that get drunk and swear at the cooks and waiters. 
It's shows itself as being just another big organisation with those at the top living off of those at the bottom. 
No wonder the GB do not receive God's holy spirit. 
 
 

They don’t.
 

I have nothing against nice accommodation.
Think, about giving Vow of Poverty for living inside modern building that cost millions of $.
Those who living and preaching in poor countries are closer to such Vow, i think :))

I would, on the OTHER hand, make a GREAT chicken!

"On Sunday, March 31, Anthony Morris, a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, was filmed at Bottle King, a discount booze store in Ramsey, NJ, buying 12 bottles of very expensive single malt. My “Bottlegate” video sharing the footage has since accumulated tens of thousands of views, with many saying the incident represents an act of hypocrisy from a man famous for his somewhat judgmental approach to morality and Christian living. The team discusses the permutations of the remarkable footage, and the widely known culture of drinking at bethel."
This video expresses the opinions of a past member of Bethel in Australia, and those of his wife, also Mark O'Donnell whose story under the article " A Secret Database of Child Abuse" was posted in The Atlantic, and "Covert Fade", author at JWsurvey.  
From the comments I have seen here, JWs are measuring Anthony Morris' actions by worldly standards; yet, for someone who claims to be "faithful and discreet", worldly standards do not apply.  
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."  Matt 5:20
 
 

I would of course be suspicious if the "special instructions" involved drinking grape kool-aid while witnessing in the jungle,  and I might just pat my stomach, smile, and lie that I had just drank a half gallon of water. Thankyouveryverymuchbutno.
Some things would be harmless to do if they made no sense, whatsoever .... others might get me killed ... and still others might cause harm to someone else, mentally, physically, or emotionally.
Some thigs are just useless "busy work" to keep the troops occupied.
I did not write any of the 64 MILLION letters to the Russian Federation, because I understood
1.) It was political activism, and
2.) It was a completely useless gesture, considering that NO ONE can, or would, or would even TRY to read 64 million letters, and it would just consolidate the Russkies being irritated, and have them think we are complete, total and  and absolute fools, and
3.) I understood the Universal Postal Union Rules of Terminal Duty ... that they got 70% of the face value of the postage to deliver those millions of letters ... my estimate was $56,000,000, to supply them with 11 train boxcar loads of thin sliced firewood.
... Winter was coming, and it was "fuel at the proper time".
It was a complete waste of time and resources .... and about 90 million dollars of the Brotherhood's money in postage ...  56 MILLION DOLLARS put into the Russian Federation Treasury .... and it was in actual fact an attempt to politically influence the Russian Court System. Complete with perhaps a ton of plausible deniability bribe money.
The reason we HAVE a conscience is to serve as a guide for us when we run across new ideas and experiences.
All that being said .... if they want me to put my hands under my armpits, and flap my elbows like chicken wings, and make rooster noises, I have no problem with that.
... that's just the way I am wired!
 
 
 

Sorry Tom that was tooooooooooooooooooooo long. I read half but you do go on a bit
What i did notice was the same old collateral damage thing.  
Quote " It is but a component of the big picture, overall a very small one." 
It's only SMALL  to you and others that are not interested in those that have suffered.
Seems to be the American way of life. War or religion, collateral damage. No love, no respect, survival of the mentally fittest. 
That's not Spiritual Wisdom Tom, it's not caring for widows and orphans, it's not being being a crag or rock as the Org should be. 
I'll try to read the rest later after my walk in the woods. Have a good day opponent not enemy  .
As for this Tom, you are totally wrong,  Quote "Time heals most everything that wants to be healed."
You honestly do not understand, we don't have a choice but to remember those things. 
 

I've just read the rest of it, it all means nothing Tom. It's just burble. Were you up all night and couldn't sleep ? Are you ill ?
Are you just having a dig at your opposition ? What is it all about ? 
Russia has nothing to do with Pedophilia, at least i don't think it does.. Totally different ball game.
But to try to use Russia as a smoke screen, or for people to feel sorry for JW's regarding Pedophilia, is totally wrong.
Le'ts look at this bit. Quote " It is one of the few things in the world today that does make sense—that is the reason that Witnesses were attracted to Bible teachings in the first place. It is the reason that they stick to it despite trials and even blunders."
Are but there is a problem there isn't there ? The problem is that each and every Witness is brought into a different 'truth', depending on exactly when they came into the JW religion.  
The Creative Days for instance. Many folks came into the JW Org when the 6 Creative Days were 7,000 years long, and they were in the 7th day. It all made sense. End of 6,000 years then 1,000 years of Christ's reign. Then it all would get handed back to God. 
But now all that is gone. So bang goes half the foundation of your idea of making sense. 
Then there was the This Generation will not pass away.  But that too has gone. Replaced by the biggest load of cr*p you can imagine. 
So now your idea of making sense gets even less.  
If you bought a new house and moved in, you may love it and it may be very sensible and good to live in.
But wow,  the builder takes the roof off, what ?  Then the builder removes all the windows, yow.
So now your new house is not the same place. You may argue with the builder, or you may just move out. You might not have a permanent place to live but you could not stay in a house that is so cold and lets the rain in. 
Do you get this message ? Because that is exactly what your GB has done. Your GB has removed over half of the foundation, they have replaced all comfort with barbed wire and filled it with 'roaring lions' of all types. 
It is no longer what it was. It no longer teaches Bible truth with love and mercy. 
 

I've just read the rest of it, it all means nothing Tom. It's just burble. Were you up all night and couldn't sleep ? Are you ill ?
Are you just having a dig at your opposition ? What is it all about ? 
Russia has nothing to do with Pedophilia, at least i don't think it does.. Totally different ball game.
But to try to use Russia as a smoke screen, or for people to feel sorry for JW's regarding Pedophilia, is totally wrong.
Le'ts look at this bit. Quote " It is one of the few things in the world today that does make sense—that is the reason that Witnesses were attracted to Bible teachings in the first place. It is the reason that they stick to it despite trials and even blunders."
Are but there is a problem there isn't there ? The problem is that each and every Witness is brought into a different 'truth', depending on exactly when they came into the JW religion.  
The Creative Days for instance. Many folks came into the JW Org when the 6 Creative Days were 7,000 years long, and they were in the 7th day. It all made sense. End of 6,000 years then 1,000 years of Christ's reign. Then it all would get handed back to God. 
But now all that is gone. So bang goes half the foundation of your idea of making sense. 
Then there was the This Generation will not pass away.  But that too has gone. Replaced by the biggest load of cr*p you can imagine. 
So now your idea of making sense gets even less.  
If you bought a new house and moved in, you may love it and it may be very sensible and good to live in.
But wow,  the builder takes the roof off, what ?  Then the builder removes all the windows, yow.
So now your new house is not the same place. You may argue with the builder, or you may just move out. You might not have a permanent place to live but you could not stay in a house that is so cold and lets the rain in. 
Do you get this message ? Because that is exactly what your GB has done. Your GB has removed over half of the foundation, they have replaced all comfort with barbed wire and filled it with 'roaring lions' of all types. 
It is no longer what it was. It no longer teaches Bible truth with love and mercy. 
 

Collateral damage is a fact of life .... in everything we do.
It should not be ... but it is.
It looks different when you have been interrogated in the back "ROOM 101". eleven times about things Jehovah cares NOTHING about. and threatened with censure or disfellowshipping.by people who can, and do destroy peoples' lives.
With the finest of intentions, and full confidence of the righteousness of their reasoning.
This is why the Watchtower is continually "pushing" that we forgive each other freely.
So that we might forgive those Elders, and Governing Body. and not exact vengeance.
 

Sorry Tom that was tooooooooooooooooooooo long. I read half but you do go on a bit
What i did notice was the same old collateral damage thing.  
Quote " It is but a component of the big picture, overall a very small one." 
It's only SMALL  to you and others that are not interested in those that have suffered.
Seems to be the American way of life. War or religion, collateral damage. No love, no respect, survival of the mentally fittest. 
That's not Spiritual Wisdom Tom, it's not caring for widows and orphans, it's not being being a crag or rock as the Org should be. 
I'll try to read the rest later after my walk in the woods. Have a good day opponent not enemy  .
As for this Tom, you are totally wrong,  Quote "Time heals most everything that wants to be healed."
You honestly do not understand, we don't have a choice but to remember those things. 
 

Oh what a laugh you two give me. 
SM. Quote "Christians will always be a primary target ... "   You are totally missing the point here SM. 
It may not be Christians that it is aimed at, it could well be Pedophiles that are hidden in the JW Org by their GB. So it might be aimed at the whole JW Org which supports the pedophilia within it. 
And Kid. Quote "How do 2 wrongs make a right? "  They don't. Just like pedophilia is wrong and so is hiding it in the JW Org.  Two wrongs.
And again quote " These actions are not with a set of moral code, but rather the actions of hateful and deranged mind orchestrated out of HATE, nothing more. " 
So what is pedophilia the actions of ? Where is the moral code of Elders that rape and sexually abuse young children, sometimes even their own children ? Those elders and other pedophiles in the JW Org must have deranged minds. 
Maybe the GB and Bethal 'bosses' also have deranged minds, reading all the reports about sexual abuse of children and not reporting any of it the police or authorities. 
Maybe this destructive action was done by those who have been abused and families of those abused. 
I wouldn't do it, but everyone is different. 
You have to remember how long pedophilia has been going on in the JW Org and also other forms of abuse in same. And the hurt that shunning causes, and being disfellowshipped for no good reasons. 
Please don't 'kid' yourself that this is anti-christian, when it's more likely anti-pedophilia and anti-GB / Elders actions. 
Or do you think it is coincidence that it is happening at the same time that JW Org is being investigated Earthwide. 
 
 

Now is this an attack on the 'serving of God' side of the religion, or, is it an attack against the Child Abuse side of the religion ?
The JW Org is now in that unfortunate position of not knowing. It would be so easy for them to say that it is persecution of the 'true religion' and coming from the devil etc..... 
But in fact it may be because of all the media news Earthwide about the Child Abuse within the JW Org. 
It would be good if the attackers would give reasons for the attacks. 
By the way, i don't think this is good news. I don't agree with this type of destructive and dangerous action. I don't agree with violence or anti social behavior. I hope all the people are ok and it would be good to think that all the Elders are doing shepherding work to look after the 'flock'. Older congregants and maybe even some young ones may be frightened by it all. 
 

One could certainly do worse in life.

I am inclined to adopt the philosophy of Tarzan of the Apes, on vigilante justice.   One night Tarzan was perched in a tree, watching a tribe below, and one man was awake,  tending a giant stew pot that was cooking the bodies of a neighboring tribe that had lost a battle, and Tarzan drops silently to the ground, and from behind lifts the cook by his ankles and sticks his head in the boiling stew, and pushes him in.
Although Jehovah God has never expressed any prohibition against cannibalism,  Tarzan reasoned that  even Great Apes (his family) did not eat each other, and neither should men.  He obeyed the dictates of his NATURAL conscience, as created by author Edgar Rice Burroughs.
The idea of taking someone back to "white man's justice". was totally foreign to Tarzan.
Perhaps that is why the Society discourages education and reading anything other than it's own publications.
Yet, on reflection, many, many dozens of times I have refrained from killing someone who SERIOUSLY needed killin'.
I wonder if that makes me "more theocratic" ... or just a wimp.