JOHN BUTLER

Sometimes ... MANY times ... Justice requires going above and BEYOND the law, without breaking it.
Taking the MORAL high ground often requires losing everything you own, and all your money and assets, and sometimes even your life, in a miserable and degraded manner, in abject and total poverty, as Jesus was the exemplar, and many of his Apostles and disciples  learned.
Remember the Assembly theme "Follow Jesus"?
How'se dat workin' out fer us?

“The court ruled that the church had no obligation to warn the congregation that the member had admitted to previously molesting his stepdaughter.”
Um, i wonder what God's thoughts on the matter are though ?  
How exactly is it protecting the children in the congregation or outside by keeping it secret ? 

What I do find funny John, people think themselves Christians with no Christian ethics in their soul.
What I do find funny Billy is people think themselves Christian just because they serve an Organisation that pretends to serve God. 
A true Christian is one who serves Almighty God through Jesus Christ. 
And what ethics do all those Elders and other JW's have, that commit Child Abuse ? 

Um, so, if all are Ministers in the JW Org, then all those that commit the crime of Child Abuse in the Org are Ministers.
So it could rightly be said that JW Ministers commit Child Abuse. Some of those ministers are JW Clergy  
Child Abuse is not funny, but this forum is funny. 
 

Billy, it is true how my English is weak. But please, take it seriously how i do not care if some elder, while he is sitting in serious Judicial Committee chair,  thinking about shopping the milk, planing to go to pick kid in kinder school, or making drawings of flowers on his private paper. If they doing so while discussing serious matters than they must find another job and not be in position of "shepherds".   
You Billy are so funny with this sort of thoughts. But in tragic way. 

“The court ruled that the church had no obligation to warn the congregation that the member had admitted to previously molesting his stepdaughter.”
Um, i wonder what God's thoughts on the matter are though ?  
How exactly is it protecting the children in the congregation or outside by keeping it secret ? 

“The court ruled that the church had no obligation to warn the congregation that the member had admitted to previously molesting his stepdaughter.”
Um, i wonder what God's thoughts on the matter are though ?  
How exactly is it protecting the children in the congregation or outside by keeping it secret ? 

To put ex-witnesses and opposers in one place seems possible. But you need to be more positive about your "fake brothers". Give chance to those you named "fake" :)))) Love covers all sins. 
Elders and Personal thoughts - memos. Elders are official agents for WT.  They have personal thoughts, for sure. But in standard procedures, judicial investigations and judging, all memos and thoughts are not Personal but Official. In every legal step about members, in every advice, in conversation in back room with two or more elders - nothing is "Personal". Personal is out of Record. One on One. No one else listening our conversation.
All things about molestation inside JW church are not just "personal, private issue". Because of elders reaction, matter comes to be Public issue, Legal issue, Court issue. All elders thoughts put on memos, records, notes about such things are no more "private". All that must be secured and preserve, save for future eventuality.
Other problem with elders handling things is in this, because member on the bench, have no right to make personal notes, to record all conversation, to have own lawyer, or at least the witness on his side in such situations.  

I an glad you expressed that sentiment as your opinion ... therefore I have no objection.
However, if you keep up with published COURT TRANSCRIPTS of testimonies by our "Clergy", under oath before God and man, you will see that not only are Sreko Sostar's observations valid ... but the Society's positions and reasonings have been exposed as duplicitous, and contrary to the principles of justness and fairness, and just plain common decency. 
They have ticked off and ran the patience of many Judges.  
I realize on this forum not many people follow threads that closely, so holding people accountable for not  knowing everything is  unrealistic , and not fair.
Two things you can do to minimize arguments between me and you, and help me to understand your viewpoints more effectively.
1.) When you have opinions, considered or grabbed out of the air, please state them AS your opinions. It keeps me from hyperventilating.
2.) Make your text BIGGER, so I can read it.
Thanks.
JTR
 
 

Um, so, if all are Ministers in the JW Org, then all those that commit the crime of Child Abuse in the Org are Ministers.
So it could rightly be said that JW Ministers commit Child Abuse. Some of those ministers are JW Clergy  
Child Abuse is not funny, but this forum is funny. 
 

I made a mistake ... Billy's point here is VERY relevant.
Morality and Justice NEEDS to trump legal considerations ... or its all just a million words .... written in discarded books that sell on Ebay for collectors of the nostalgic past, and home libraries covered in dust, and eventually eaten by worms.
ALWAYS REPORT CRIMES TO THE POLICE!
ALWAYS!
....don't look for ways to weasel out of Justice.

That is EXACTLY why it is blatantly STUPID .... to label YOURSELF as CLERGY.
It's like deliberately  running into an incoming  shoulder-thrown fist from professionals that needed your cooperation to break your skull
I believe it is time for BillytheKid46 to post something irrelevant and off point now, so I will yield the floor ....

John: The logic of your argument is inescapable ... or at least beyond my abilities to misconstrue.
 

Um, so, if all are Ministers in the JW Org, then all those that commit the crime of Child Abuse in the Org are Ministers.
So it could rightly be said that JW Ministers commit Child Abuse. Some of those ministers are JW Clergy  
Child Abuse is not funny, but this forum is funny. 
 

Um, so, if all are Ministers in the JW Org, then all those that commit the crime of Child Abuse in the Org are Ministers.
So it could rightly be said that JW Ministers commit Child Abuse. Some of those ministers are JW Clergy  
Child Abuse is not funny, but this forum is funny. 
 

I will repeat what i wrote previously. 
It could be announced from the platform in every KH that all types of crimes reported to the Elders would be reported to the authorities. Then people would be able to make the decision whether to tell the Elders or not.
If it was made clear that ALL CRIMES would be reported to the authorities then I wonder if that would remove the 'clergy privilege' excuse. 
As for the others things you mentioned Billy, if they are not crimes then the authorities do not need to be involved. I suppose in some countries homosexuality may still be a crime, I don't know. 
Did I read on here that an Elder at the ARC said that he would not report a murder ?  If so then where is his love of neighbour ? 

But surely Billy if these problems have been going on for fifty years or more, and the JW Org has a bethal/head office in each country , then surely someone within each head office should be up to date on all procedures. These are not new problems. The GB or their legal department has 20 years worth of accusations on record just in the USA, and probably much more earthwide. I cannot see any excuses to any of this. 
And if all Elders were told to report everything to the police and/or outside authorities then it would probably make their lives a lot easier. 
It could be announced from the platform in every KH that all types of crimes reported to the Elders would be reported to the authorities. Then people would be able to make the decision whether to tell the Elders or not. 
Apart from some strange idea of wanting to know how many pedophiles are in the JW Org, what is the point of just keeping it all on record ? Keeping records is not protecting anyone. And our neighbours are supposed to be everyone, so the protection of everyone, especially children, is important. How can keeping internal record protect people outside the Org ? Are the Elders going to follow pedophiles around all day to keep them from attacking people outside ? 
Tell the authorities, the Police, then the matter can be dealt with by those trained to deal with it. 
 

@TrueTomHarley Quote "It is not possible to mishandle what you never attempted to handle in the first place."
Ah is that how they think they can get away with it then ? They listen to the details but don't help. 
But aren't the Elders supposed to be, a rock, or, a sheltering place from the storm ? No ? 
From the news report " According to the lawsuit, Blais, now in her 40s, first spoke out about the alleged abuse when she was 16 years old. She sought help from her parents, another Jehovah’s Witness and an elder — members who act as spiritual leaders in different congregations — but says she was discouraged from reporting the abuse in order to protect the community. "
Now if that is true it helps to confirm what I and many others believe, that Elders and others within the JW Org try to keep it all secret. 
This 16 year old girl needed help but was told to just keep quiet. Was she still being abused at 16 ? Was her father an Elder ?  Presumably it will all come to light in the court case, if such actually happens. 
But one good thing is that it gives opportunity to other victims to speak up now.  
As the report says, it would be very difficult for one individual to take the JW Org / Watchtower soc' to court. The Org would have top lawyers, but one individual could not afford such. So a large group of victims working together makes sense. 
But of course TTH and others still will not agree with any of it. 

I think the word is diplomacy. But basically 'if the cap fits wear it'. 
It's letting the congregants know that the Elders are being told.
What's that saying. 'It's not enough that justice is done, but that justice has to be seen to be done'. The congregants need to have some sort of confidence restored it seems. 
Also, as all 'Letters to Elders' are now freely available online, it would be seen as accepting that the Elders have very often been the cause of the suffering of the victims. 
Remember that the JW Org is just like a political party looking for votes. The difference is that the JW Org needs congregants that will pour money into the Org. So it is important for the Org to clean up it's act. This Watchtower is just one way of making it look like the GB are actually doing something positive. 
Does it mention destruction of evidence in this Watchtower. Or does it mention The clergy–penitent privilege, clergy privilege, confessional privilege, priest–penitent privilege, clergyman–communicant privilege, or ecclesiastical privilegeis a rule of evidence that forbids judicial inquiry into certain communications (spoken or otherwise) between clergy and members of their congregation. ??? 
Probably not. 

@Anna Quote " In their eyes we are clergy. "
Who is this 'we' ?  Is this the Elders or all JW's ? 
 

So here we have two opposing views on the Clergy Privilege laws.  
I'm not into laws and I would presume it is different in different countries anyway, but my idera still stands if it would work.
There is one point that as James said and i've always thought it, the Clergy Privilege law applies one on one, and once a group of people know the circumstances then that law no longer applies. But i will admit to being out of my depth on the subject.  
 

@TrueTomHarley Quote "It is not possible to mishandle what you never attempted to handle in the first place."
Ah is that how they think they can get away with it then ? They listen to the details but don't help. 
But aren't the Elders supposed to be, a rock, or, a sheltering place from the storm ? No ? 
From the news report " According to the lawsuit, Blais, now in her 40s, first spoke out about the alleged abuse when she was 16 years old. She sought help from her parents, another Jehovah’s Witness and an elder — members who act as spiritual leaders in different congregations — but says she was discouraged from reporting the abuse in order to protect the community. "
Now if that is true it helps to confirm what I and many others believe, that Elders and others within the JW Org try to keep it all secret. 
This 16 year old girl needed help but was told to just keep quiet. Was she still being abused at 16 ? Was her father an Elder ?  Presumably it will all come to light in the court case, if such actually happens. 
But one good thing is that it gives opportunity to other victims to speak up now.  
As the report says, it would be very difficult for one individual to take the JW Org / Watchtower soc' to court. The Org would have top lawyers, but one individual could not afford such. So a large group of victims working together makes sense. 
But of course TTH and others still will not agree with any of it. 

The next thing you know, the 40 days or so in which we have articles, talks and videos leading up to the Memorial of Christ's Death every year, we will be calling "Lent", and Memorial Invitations will allude to the Cadbury  Bunny.

During the American Civil War Abraham Lincoln was accused of being "two faced" and his aides called the newspaper reports to his attention.  His reply was "If I was "two faced" ..... would I be wearing THIS one?

@Anna Quote " In their eyes we are clergy. "
Who is this 'we' ?  Is this the Elders or all JW's ?