JOHN BUTLER

The site crashed when I had a rant going , and it was lost.
Probably a good idea .... it was a doozie!
Synopsis:
We have NO RIGHTEOUS RIGHT to ask anyone to keep the quest for Justice secret.
It subverts Justice, and dishoners Jehovah God.
I have no sympathy for plaintiffs who agree to,  or defendants who pay for secrecy in the quest for Justice.
.... only contempt.

Yes, I agree,  that's how it should be, but as you mentioned, Lawyers want to go where the money is, and abusers probably don't have the kind of money they want. JW child abuse cases are attractive to them because of jw.org. Also, I didn't realise but many lawyers go hunting for cases. For instance someone I know is being sued by a credit card company and as soon as the lawsuit was filed with the court she has been receiving numerous letters from different lawyers who want to represent her. Apparently they go down to the courthouse to find cases. Similarly, child abuse lawyers go hunting for survivors so they can represent them in court. This was one reason I believe Zalkin wanted the names of all the alleged abusers held by the org. so he could sift through them and find anything that he could use for himself. And once they find a "suitable" survivor, they no doubt persuade her/him to the effect that they shouldn't feel bad about suing, since they will be suing the organization, and the organization has plenty of money. Then they (the lawyers) go about finding ways to incriminate the org. It's all about making money, but often the survivor comes off worse, especially when there is a settlement. I believe the lawyers take the biggest lump, and since with a settlement there is also a gag order, the survivor can't even complain about how little they got. It's all a big scam and all about lining the lawyers pockets. There is no justice really. The only justice will be with Jehovah. So when someone says "wait on Jehovah" when it is apparent that nothing that can be done for the moment, then that makes perfect sense. Of course it goes without saying that that should never be used as an excuse not to do anything.

Lies and cover-ups ALWAYS lead to MORE lies and MORE coverups ... and there are no exceptions.
We should be proud of EVERYTHING we do, and where we screw up ... fess up, take a beating, and keep on keeping on.
That's how it works with men of integrity, which in the GB, seems to be in short supply....
...if it involves money.
 
 

I do not know if the ARC did or didn't submit these findings to their legal brief. What I do know is that those letters had a very limited audience. Regular publishers had no idea about these letters, they had no idea how elders were supposed to handle these situations. They were completely in the dark. As a consequence, regular publishers were at the "mercy" of the Elders. The ARC changed that. Now everyone knows the procedure and can be on the same page. It's a pity this transparency didn't happen sooner.

@TrueTomHarley  You know you may even be a good author, it's the way you twist things and use sarcasm to try to hide the truth.
Are you calling Queen Esther a liar ? And Jack also ?   Isn't the proof being put in front of your own eyes ? 
But, there is none so blind as those that do not want to see.  Keep selling your books Tom it's all you are really interested in anyway. 
But I think you've shot yourself in the foot by admitting this :-
Quote : Come, come, John. Around ten is the age that ones may present themselves for baptism, and mid-teens is more typical. Participation in the ministry can start earlier.
Witness HQ counts it by the number who are doing what the name says. How many are ‘witnessing’ for Jehovah? That will be revealed in how many report field service.
You have therefore confirmed what i said. Under 10 year olds can have a Field Service Report put in by their parents and it will be counted. And they start at 3 years old Tom. 
It's not about 'pumping up the numbers' Tom, it's about trying to hide how many are leaving the JW Org. 
Replacing the number of adults in the Org with children, by counting the children as proper JW's, and people outside will not know the difference. It's about 'show' Tom, and you know it. 
It's all a front. Pretending the JW Org is clean and pretending the JW Org has a healthy number of members. 
But it only works to fool those in the world that do not understand how bad the JW Org really is. 

This is true for every book, with the exception of my own, where each new word is a refreshing delight.

It's nice to see children dedicating their lives to Jehovah, unfortunately they are also dedicating their lives to an idol called the wtbts in a contract for life.

I will agree that it is all very difficult to deal with, for the Org and for the victims. Do i know any answers, no I don't. 
It's just such a shame that the JW Org is in such a mess. 
And like you say Billy it seems the lawyers are just using the victims as a way of earning more cash for themselves. 
Yes the sun is shining here, I'm in a better frame of mind. :) Have a good day all. 
 

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
 
this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 
 
again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences. 

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 
as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 
How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

But wait, did the wt print the news articles about child abuse? I mean we all know that is a problem within the org. 

It's very true that government (police, investigators, prosecutors, judges, child protection services, etc.) often fails to do their job correctly. 
True again. It's so typical of lawyers to go after an institution when it's not even the fault of an institution, just because that's where the money is. As you know, this goes for a lot of legal issues, even those unrelated to child sexual abuse. Of course, if it can be shown that an institution had hidden the abuse to protect their own assets (coach, priest, cardinal, bank account) or to protect their institution's reputation (a college, a football team, a diocese, a religion) then there should be culpability. In some few cases these vultures swoop in to exact a kind of punishment where the "system" failed, but there is no real justice for all, because this very much a 'hit and miss' process. 
There are cases against the Watchtower that really have absolutely nothing to do with the Watchtower, and should focus just on getting justice for the victim from the abuser. And there may be cases where congregation elders have made a mistake that has nothing to do with their training as elders and they should have known better. Some of these cases should have nothing to do with the Watchtower Society or the organization.
True. Powerful and monied interests can be leveraged on behalf of both persons and institutions, and that can make even good police investigative work meaningless. Victims are typically poorer and abusers can use their own power and influence to buy attorneys that can bully those victims. Victims can be talked into exonerating the abuser, or settling cases with a sack of money and a gag order.  I have a feeling that the HBO documentary on Michael Jackson which may be aired next month will show how money can buy the kind of lawyers and threats that protect abusers. Acosta/Epstein is another case in point.

I will agree that it is all very difficult to deal with, for the Org and for the victims. Do i know any answers, no I don't. 
It's just such a shame that the JW Org is in such a mess. 
And like you say Billy it seems the lawyers are just using the victims as a way of earning more cash for themselves. 
Yes the sun is shining here, I'm in a better frame of mind. :) Have a good day all. 
 

I will agree that it is all very difficult to deal with, for the Org and for the victims. Do i know any answers, no I don't. 
It's just such a shame that the JW Org is in such a mess. 
And like you say Billy it seems the lawyers are just using the victims as a way of earning more cash for themselves. 
Yes the sun is shining here, I'm in a better frame of mind. :) Have a good day all. 
 

No matter how much you write Tom it does not make you right. And all this above is only your opinion. 
I only read half and nearly fell asleep. :) 

Not only will I not spoon feed you, but I will revisit a prior contribution of yours where you feigned concern for brothers in Russia.
Of course, in one sense it’s not feigning. It’s real. I know that.
But in a truer sense it is a good cop/bad cop scenario in which the good cop really hopes that his prey does not fall into the clutches of the bad cop because he knows how bad that cop can be. Nevertheless the two are working in tandem, with the identical goal - in this case that Jehovah’s Witnesses not be Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I would submit that the good cop is the worst of the two in a sense, for he keeps his malice concealed, and approaches in the guise of a friend. It is in your case that the passage of Matthew 10:28 most readily applies.
[Jesus words:] “do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”
A thug is a thug is a thug. His malice is easily understood. Not so with one who poses as a friend/benefactor on the Internet.
You big baby! @JW Insider can hit 8000 words and not even break a sweat!

I know it’s my second shot at this and that you did not argue with the first one. 
But I wonder where you got this from. It’s quite the opposite. Not only are they not looked down upon, but they are greatly respected because congregation members know what is involved.
There are two possibilities. 1.) You read it somewhere, or 2.) You think it yourself.
If you read it somewhere, then I would submit that it is deliberately planted by those who dislike Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to dissuade anyone who has left from returning.
If you think it yourself, then I would suggest that your perception is off. I do not blame you for it. I also would not categorically state that there are not yo-yos here and there that might give cause for that perception, but it is not the reality. It only hurts you to think it.
 It is not true, but my point to you is that even if it were, it is only true in your case if you accede to it. Don’t, if at all possible.
Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
 

No matter how much you write Tom it does not make you right. And all this above is only your opinion. 
I only read half and nearly fell asleep. :) 

OHHH Tom, i hoped that you can tell what you want to tell with 50, 100 or 200 words. But no, you need cca 4 000 words and make me not want to read what you want to say. Perhaps someone else will react different than me. :)))  

I would be lying if I said I wouldn’t accept payout for merely being TrueTom.
When the rules of the game change, you can hardly blame the small players for adjusting to accommodate them. There was a time, I think you will remember it, too, when nothing was so crass as for lawyers to advertise. It was against their universal code of conduct, possibly even against the law. It explains the phrase “ambulance chaser” - you actually had to chase an ambulance to sign up a client before another lawyer did. You couldn’t just broadcast to the whole wide world that you were scouring the earth for clients.
Someone dear to me was sued several times with regard to rental property, in another matter that had a very long statute of limitations. When what proved to be the final lawsuit came in, the person sought to make defense through his own lawyer. That lawyer contacted several times but could not get a response from the firm bringing suit. Finally that firm admitted that they were having a hard time locating their client. In other words, they were leaving no stone unturned in desperately seeking business and had finally found “aggrieved” ones who’s cases were so tenuous that they couldn’t even be bothered to show up.
This may be your interpretation. I have seen many disfellowshipped ones go through the process and return. Nobody looks down upon them. It causes pure joy to the congregation that normal association may soon resume.
Think of it as a game, if you like, admittedly silly in some respects, but forced upon humans because they cannot read hearts. It is like a teen I knew very well who was disfellowshipped. He lived in the family home throughout. When on one super-cold morning he parked in the KH lot and strode toward the building without a coat, I broke all protocol and said “I know that there’s no contact and all, but did they even have to take your coat?”
He liked that one, and in not too long a time he was reinstated.

No one calls for justice;
    no one pleads a case with integrity.
They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies;
    they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.
Their feet rush into sin;
    they are swift to shed innocent blood.
They pursue evil schemes;
    acts of violence mark their ways.
8 The way of peace they do not know;
    there is no justice in their paths.
They have turned them into crooked roads;
    no one who walks along them will know peace.
9 So justice is far from us,
    and righteousness does not reach us.
We look for light, but all is darkness;
    for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.
10 Like the blind we grope along the wall,
    feeling our way like people without eyes.
At midday we stumble as if it were twilight;
    among the strong, we are like the dead.
11 We all growl like bears;
    we moan mournfully like doves.
We look for justice, but find none;
    for deliverance, but it is far away.
12 For our offenses are many in your sight,
    and our sins testify against us.
Our offenses are ever with us,
    and we acknowledge our iniquities:
13 rebellion and treachery against the Lord,
    turning our backs on our God,
inciting revolt and oppression,
    uttering lies our hearts have conceived.
14 So justice is driven back,
    and righteousness stands at a distance;
truth has stumbled in the streets,
    honesty cannot enter.
15 Truth is nowhere to be found,
    and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.  Isa 59:4,7-15

So listening to you all patting each other on the back I conclude that all of you are saying that everyone that says they are a Victim of child abuse in the JW Org is actually a LIAR. They all made it up, every one of them Earthwide. 
So in your eyes, the GB never refused to hand over evidence to the courts. The Elders have never been told to destroy evidence because 'Satan is coming after us'. The Two Witness rule has never been misused . Victims have never been called liars. Children have never been forced to face the accused Child Abuser.  Nobody has been disfellowshipped for continuing to complain about abuse they suffered not being dealt with properly.  Everybody in a congregation is made aware that there is a Pedophile with in it.  
And the biggest one of all, you think Victims are only in it for the Money.  
And most of you use the GB tactics of saying I'm mentally disturbed. 
Um, it's proving to me more and more that the JW org brain deadens people. 
But you don't care because to you lot it's just collateral damage. 

Quote @TrueTomHarley "No more than the motorist uses the posted speed limit sign as an “excuse” to explain why he was driving that fast."
Here we can see how Tom calmly compares a speeding motorist with a Pedophile that has abused a young child. What does this tell you of his lack of feeling for other people ? Where is his personal application of the scripture that talks about 'Looking after widows and orphans'. Where is his idea of protecting children in the JW Org ? Nothing, it's just like speeding motorist to him. 
Tom and others, the JW Org has said it does not have a Clergy Class. But it uses the Clergy privilege to avoid giving evidence in court. That is hypocritical. 
Now as for : Quote "I might have inferred this based upon your constant remarks that one does not need an organization or GB.." 
Actually I've constantly said 'if God wants to use the JW Org then God will clean it out properly' and I've said that the GB should consist of 12 or 13 men from different countries around the Earth. I've said that the current GB should be replaced. 
Was it Rutherford or Russell that said an organisation was not needed ? Whichever it wasn't me. Unless you can quote me as saying it ? 
As for Elders serving because they want 'power and control', yes i think many of them do. Especially the ones that are Pedophiles. 
When an Elder is using a dating website and using the name Yogi Bishop, and using a pretend 'hometown',  then I would think he is not an Elder for the right reasons. (That's one for the Kid, one of the real life issues that i know about). 
For me there is no bravery in telling people that I've been sexually abused, physically beaten up and emotionally abused as a child / teenager. It has a purpose. If I'm a pain in the bum, then people will know why. It's because it is impossible to 'get over it'. 
That is why I don't like seeing it happen to others. But it seems that a lot of you just see it as collateral damage.  You see it as, well it's only a few hundred out of 8 million, so in your eyes it doesn't matter. And even those few hundred you basically call liars. 
It's Your conscience. If you are happy with your gods, the GB and it's Org, then so be it. Yes i can understand that Almighty God needs a means of communication, But He needs a pure clean organisation and at this time that is not the JW org. 
 

To the rest of you that feel the need to rally round and stick up for the ones you worship. The GB and it Org.
You are completely missing the point of this Watchtower. It is aimed at the Elders.
It is not so that congregants can know what to do. IT IS TO TELL THE ELDERS TO BACK OFF. TO TELL THE ELDERS. NOT TO TELL THE CONGREGANTS TO KEEP QUIET. 
BECAUSE IT SEEMS THE ELDERS WERE TELLING THE CONGREGANTS NOT TO REPORT THINGS TO THE POLICE OR THE AUTHORITIES. 
UNLESS AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, YOU ARE CALLING ALL THE VICTIMS LIARS. 
And for the Kid, yes Kid experience is better than second hand information, but Kid i have both. 

@TrueTomHarley    Quote "I had you in mind when I wrote the above, John, and I honestly feel sorry for you."
Nice of you to think about me Tom. Thank you. But feeling sorry for someone is such a negative attitude, and in your case i feel the sorrow is not genuine. Why ? 
Quote "Though apparently wrapped in a newfound ‘personal relationship with Jesus,’ "  That is sarcasm Tom and shows your lack of 'feeling sorry for me'  I do not have a 'personal relationship with Jesus', nor do i pretend to have.  Can you quote me as saying that i have ? 
I have always thought that individuals should pray to God through Jesus Christ. And surely all Christians should pray in such a way on a daily basis ? I went into our back garden early this morning and put food out for the birds, and when birds arrived i thanked God for the happiness those birds bring to humans. Just watching those birds in the garden, such a simple thing, but it gives me such pleasure. Now God must have built that into humans to like or love animals / birds / creatures. So in that way you could say we all have a 'personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ', or would you not agree ? 
If you don't agree that people can have such a relationship with God and Christ then it seems as if you are saying that a person can only give praise twice a week, that being at JW meetings............. Now that creates a Clergy Class doesn't it ? 
But oh yes that reminds me Clergy Class, Clergy privilege. 
The clergy–penitent privilege, clergy privilege, confessional privilege, priest–penitent privilege, clergyman–communicant privilege, or ecclesiastical privilegeis a rule of evidence that forbids judicial inquiry into certain communications (spoken or otherwise) between clergy and members of their congregation.
I do believe that Elders are using this 'excuse' to refuse to give evidence in court cases. Am I right in this thinking ? 
But of course the JW Org does not have a 'Clergy Class' does it ? Contradiction i think. 
Quote " applying Christianity. "  That phrase means different things to different people Tom.  If all those Pedophiles in the JW Org had applied Christianity then all the aforementioned on this topic would not exist.