JOHN BUTLER

And you need an OUTLINE to give a talk at a funeral ?  
You people really are puppets. 
And you were saying the other day that the GB / Org is not controlling ?
But they want you to stick to an outline to give a funeral talk and they much prefer you to be an Elder or M/S ? 
Bit of contradiction me thinks.. 

To quote TTH " I do not ever say that the slave is wrong. It is not my place, even were I to think it. "
This is so sad as I presume he is talking about the Governing Body. 
Psalm 146
 3  Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
Remember that Tom. Those 8 men are only men. They are not God nor Jesus Christ. 
And ''if' they form part of the Anointed, they are only a tiny part of it. 

To quote the pussycat CA 
26  If any man thinks he is a worshipper of God but does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he is deceiving his own heart, and his worship is futile.
Ah but if you then look at the next verse 
27  The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.
Um, GB and JW Org complete FAILURE  

Quote TTH  " Remember, ALL of us are apostate if you stretch the word too far, for Bethel clearly prefers we abstain from sites of off the grid spiritualality and yet here we are. "
Oh dear thar word APOSTATE. 
 
apostate Dictionary result for apostate
/əˈpɒsteɪt/ noun   1. a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith" synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More         adjective   1. abandoning a religious or political belief or principle. "an apostate Roman Catholic"   GET IT IN YOUR HEADS THAT, A PERSON CAN LEAVE A RELIGION, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ABANDON GOD OR JESUS CHRIST   And, all f you will know exactly how JESUS spoke to the Pharisees. That would have made Jesus an apostate to the Jewish religion. All Jesus' followers became apostate to the Jewish religion.   No more animal sacrifices, Jesus fulfilled the LAW.    So why are you all so keen to worship the GB of JW Org, and to hang on their every word. If you GB wishes to misuse the word Apostate are you all so stupid you have to follow them ? 

Come, come. This is why your side becomes disorganized rabble, each person flailing away, and ultimately accomplishing little. Worse, they soon take sides over the many divisive issues of this system and are presently at each other’s throats—despite each one’s ‘personal relationship with Jesus.’
Every project needs direction and someone to lead. It is no more complicated than that. Refraining from critiquing them over every little thing is not the same as ‘worshipping’ them.
Many have tried to explain this to you, to no end. For the life of me, I cannot bring myself to explain something so obvious.

No John. I keep a slave at home. In some respects I am behind the times.

It’s because of our great growth. Duh!

It’s not so much that you should be. It’s that he shouldn’t have been. It is anything goes here. That’s just the way it is.
The one-sided action favors the perception that The Librarian, that old hen, is in bed with apostates. ( Yeccchhhh)

What! Are you going senile now, you disgusting old fool? At least if you do, the damage will be slight. Nobody will be able to tell the difference!
“Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God.” 2 John 9
Why don’t you try READING that book that you beat everyone over the head with? I think John Butler has you pegged pretty well, you hypocrite!

Quote TTH. "Opposers say ALMOST TO THE PERSON that Jehovah’s Witnesses are ‘controlling’ "
Opposers do this opposers do that. Apostates do this, apostates do that.
Dear old TTH, he loves to generalise.  Tom, everyone is an individual.
Haven't you watched 'Life Of Brian' ? We're all individuals. 
However if ten people saw a vehicle accident happen and had to give a report to the police, they would all probably give similar accounts.
If you have 50 ex JW's, they will each have their own experiences. If all 50 of them found the Org to be controlling then doesn't that tell you something ?  If you are not blind or deaf, it should tell you that those 50 people found the JW Org to be controlling. 
The only way JW's can get out of that control is by not completely obeying the 'rules'. And it seems that you are saying that the rules are not always enforced. BUT the rules are there none the less. 
Quote TTH "We do cut people slack in most areas."   Please explain.
WHO cuts people slack ? What slack are they cutting ? Do you mean that Elders allow congregants to break the rules ?
So are you admitting that there are those rules in place ?
If so, having those rules in place, is controlling. 
Yes I know we all have to obey rules in everyday life. For instance, which side of the road we drive on, stopping at red lights. 
But the superior authorities will admit they put rules in place, so they are controlling.
So why won't the GB of JW Org ,and you, admit that the Org is controlling ? After all isn't it supposed to be that way ? 
If there are rules it is for the purpose of having control. 

I should have added, to the one who doesn't recognize it.   You appear to be very hopeful that these "clearly stated instructions" will be followed.  How many such instructions have been changed or completely ignored by elders?  My husband was an elder in a congregation where instructions were generally ignored until a "circuit brother" would be ready to call. They would scramble to "prepare" as a good elder body should.  There was no real concern for the sheep.  Shepherding calls infringed on the personal time of elders.  My husband took the bulk of them and was serious at visiting every person in need that he could.   But, not only did he realize that the instructions outlined in the Shepherd the Flock book were hypocritical, but also were the brothers who were suppose to carry them out.  He eventually dropped the Shepherd the Flock book on the table and walked out on the very night that elders were up until all hours making themselves look good for circuit overseer.   He left the organization on account of its hypocrisy.
A false priesthood of men not anointed who do not carry God's laws written on their heart as an anointed Body has been given, cannot and will not be equipped to shepherd the flock in righteousness.  Mal 2:7; Heb 8:10-11
Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.  Matt 7:12
How long has the organization been up and running?  What avenue has been used to force the changes that you now see concerning the major problem of child abuse and the safety of the victim?  It wasn't the teachings of Christ that caused the revision, but the law enforcement of men.  

Wow it seems that everyone has got a copy of the 2019 Shepherding the Flock book. 
Can i have one please ? 

When was it ever anything else?
From my point of view, that is almost the sole purpose of this site. 
Come, come, we must not squabble. We have the same goal, even if we go about it in different ways. I will allow that I am probably too flippant, and post in that spirit what you take seriously. For example, I did a quick & fictional snippet of Fred. That is my bad, and I apologize.
JWI deals with egghead stuff that I only skim. Things dealing with dates are not my thing. These are not the ‘motivating’ things that cause people to develop a bad heart. Rather, if some have already developed a bad heart, they latch onto the fact that people ‘at the top’ disagree (Duh) and make maximum hay out of it. Or they find that there has been much hashing out over what eventually comes out as a unified whole, and they bail on that account.
The one of good heart sees such disagreement & says ‘Ah, well, they’ll figure it out,’ and carries on without undo fuss. Since we have been wrong many times before, it seems a little foolish to insist that it will never happen again. ‘If they are on the wrong side of this or that bit of prophesy, they’ll figure it out and get on the right side,’ says the one of good heart.
No. I don’t care about such things. Why some do I’ll never know, but it’s a good thing that they do. Everyone has a gift. I like to focus on what I think is more relevant  - the qualities attributed to ‘apostates’ in Jude and 2Peter—an insistence on self-determination, and a disdain for authority. I am in my element when I get to kick back at those who would capitalize on genuine tragedies, such as CSA, to seek to destroy the ones preaching the good news.
With a major ‘reform,’ making clear that there is absolutely no reproach in reporting vile things to the authorities, some of the most virulent of our critics lose something huge to them - a little like ‘what is Tom Brady going to do with himself after he retires?’ Some face withering away like Roger Chillingsworth. They almost have no choice but to find some pissy little thing that could conceivably allow something bad to yet happen and harp on that to the cows come home.
Since I don’t care about the aspects of theocratic life that you do, I have probably overstepped in some places and drawn your reproof. I apologize. One of the prime things Jehovah hates is anyone spreading contentions among brothers. I won’t do it. When I once ‘liked’ a post of Captain Zipzeronada, a brother who was solid but rigid was stumbled. I apologized to him and didn’t do it again for the longest time - until the old pork chop said something to reveal that beneath his breathtaking pig-headedness, he was  likable in some respects and I couldn’t resist.
Our people do not typically do well online. They take shots at each other for not toeing the line in this or that aspect of service. Or they say: “This is what Jehovah has said:” to people who don’t necessarily care what he has said. They look ridiculous as they try to make the Internet behave like the congregation. As much as I appreciate your goal, if you told your circuit overseer that you were having a hard time purifying the Internet, what do you think he would say?
You have to cut brothers some slack online. If they shouldn’t be here to say it, you shouldn’t be here to hear it. You know very well that Bethel isn’t thrilled about any of us being here.

Wow it seems that everyone has got a copy of the 2019 Shepherding the Flock book. 
Can i have one please ? 

( WELL you are the one now using my name so i will respond to 'others' in case it is not clear. )
And if an Elder should want to hide or destroy evidence in the form of written notes he will. And i think that a video was put up on this forum to show a brother in some position of authority telling elders to destroy evidence. That brother used the excuse that 'satan was coming after the organisation'.  Of course what he really meant was 'this is going to cost the Org lots of money and give it a really bad name' ... '
Also I believe that in the Netherlands, Police invaded the HQ and some Kingdom Halls and a couple of homes, searching for such evidence / documents, as proof of Child Abuse happenings. 
At the headquarters of Jehova's Witnesses in Emmen, an invasion took place on 19 November due to a large-scale investigation into sexual abuse.
Two church buildings, also known as kingdom halls, have also been investigated. One of them is in Dordrecht, the location of the other is still unknown. Four houses were also examined. The police were looking for documents from internal lawsuits, that reportsRTL News .    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My son watched the film 1984, and he said those in charge would say there was 'a variation' in different things, but it actually meant there was a lesser amount being offered for the same cost... When our rent goes up the Council use that same word 'variation' instead of rise in cost. Do you understand where I'm coming from ?  The GB of JW Org is just doing the same thing as the world does, playing with words to serve their own purpose..
There are 'whistleblowers' in the world to show us how bad the ruling classes treat the lower classes. 
I am very pleased that there are 'Whistleblowers' within the JW Org too, to prove how bad the GB and the Org really is.
TTH pretends all is well and Anna backs up his every comment like a parrot. But in truth we know, nothing has changed. It's just playing with words. Something which TTH loves to do. 
So i will repeat. IF AN ELDER COMMITS CHILD ABUSE AND THERE ARE NOT TWO WITNESSES TO PROVE HE DID IT, THEN HE WILL GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE HIS FELLOW ELDERS WILL RALLY ROUND HIM TO 'PROTEST' HIM.  THERE WILL NOT BE A PROPER ENQUIRY / INQUIRY TO THE SITUATION AS THE ELDERS WILL SAY THERE IS NO INTERNAL CASE TO ANSWER. THEREFORE THE ABUSER ELDER WILL STILL KEEP HIS 'STATION' AND HIS STATUS. THE VICTIM WILL BE SEEN AS A LIAR AND / OR SLANDERER AND WILL BE SHUNNED BY OTHERS IN THE CONGREGATION. IF THE VICTIM CONTINUES TO COMPLAIN THEY WILL BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED. 
Simple enough for you all to understand I hope. I thought some of you needed capitals as you seem to find it difficult to read and understand things. 
 

What are you saying, historical because of it being a possible rarity, which I don't agree with; or, historical according to time?  The court case happened just this last fall; which in my book is "today".  
If the same pressure by these "rogue" individuals is put upon a victim, threatening them not to go to the police saying they will handle it in house, how will the authorities know to convict the perpetrator?   What you are saying sounds like the perfect plan, but it is a plan that will not work throughout the organization, and it's individual congregations.  

It all sounds well and good, except in many "rogue" halls, it has been and will continue, to be done according to the will of the elder body.  It think this has been proven more than once.   If elders fail to follow the new guidelines, will they be disfellowshipped?  Just asking.  Will they suffer at the hands of the Watchtower as the victim did?
A jury in northwestern Montana handed down a $35 million award Wednesday in a lawsuit filed by two women against the local Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation and its worldwide headquarters.
The decision came down after a three-day trial. The Thompson Falls congregation and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the church’s institutional center in New York and Pennsylvania, will pay $4 million in compensation and $31 million in punitive damages. The monetary award applies to only one of the women who sued the church in 2016.
The women said Max Reyes, a member of the Thompson Falls congregation, sexually assaulted, molested and raped them over a 13-year period in the 1990s and 2000s, both before he was severed from the congregation and after leadership reinstated him 14 months later.
Watchtower, the church’s worldwide center, is the headquarters for the religious leadership and the church's institutional operations, such as policy making and financing. Each congregation is legally connected to Watchtower as one entity.
Earlier in the case, Judge James Manley ruled that Reyes’ criminal acts were foreseeable to the church leadership when they allowed him to return and that the congregation’s elders were not exempt from Montana’s mandatory reporting law when they learned of the allegations against him and didn’t turn him over to law enforcement.  From the "Missoulian"
 
Jesus simply said, "love your neighbor as yourself".  Is this so hard to understand?   Even those few words are incomprehensible to the leaders in the organization.  They are not obedient to Jesus' teachings, nor the law, but only to their selfish desires to do things their way. 

just read the suicide part of the book and it said this:
ATTEMPTED SUICIDE
81. A suicide attempt may be the result of deep despair or major depression.
Elders should deal carefully and compassionately with
such a person. In most cases, a judicial hearing is not required.
—Ps. 88:3, 17, 18; Prov. 15:13; Eccl. 7:7; g 4/14 pp. 6-9.

How dare publishers attempt suicide ! Clearly, they should be threatened with being disfellowshipped. Jehovah's congregation needs to be kept clean from people who try to kill themselves.
This is a fork from an earlier thread:
 

( WELL you are the one now using my name so i will respond to 'others' in case it is not clear. )
And if an Elder should want to hide or destroy evidence in the form of written notes he will. And i think that a video was put up on this forum to show a brother in some position of authority telling elders to destroy evidence. That brother used the excuse that 'satan was coming after the organisation'.  Of course what he really meant was 'this is going to cost the Org lots of money and give it a really bad name' ... '
Also I believe that in the Netherlands, Police invaded the HQ and some Kingdom Halls and a couple of homes, searching for such evidence / documents, as proof of Child Abuse happenings. 
At the headquarters of Jehova's Witnesses in Emmen, an invasion took place on 19 November due to a large-scale investigation into sexual abuse.
Two church buildings, also known as kingdom halls, have also been investigated. One of them is in Dordrecht, the location of the other is still unknown. Four houses were also examined. The police were looking for documents from internal lawsuits, that reportsRTL News .    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My son watched the film 1984, and he said those in charge would say there was 'a variation' in different things, but it actually meant there was a lesser amount being offered for the same cost... When our rent goes up the Council use that same word 'variation' instead of rise in cost. Do you understand where I'm coming from ?  The GB of JW Org is just doing the same thing as the world does, playing with words to serve their own purpose..
There are 'whistleblowers' in the world to show us how bad the ruling classes treat the lower classes. 
I am very pleased that there are 'Whistleblowers' within the JW Org too, to prove how bad the GB and the Org really is.
TTH pretends all is well and Anna backs up his every comment like a parrot. But in truth we know, nothing has changed. It's just playing with words. Something which TTH loves to do. 
So i will repeat. IF AN ELDER COMMITS CHILD ABUSE AND THERE ARE NOT TWO WITNESSES TO PROVE HE DID IT, THEN HE WILL GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE HIS FELLOW ELDERS WILL RALLY ROUND HIM TO 'PROTEST' HIM.  THERE WILL NOT BE A PROPER ENQUIRY / INQUIRY TO THE SITUATION AS THE ELDERS WILL SAY THERE IS NO INTERNAL CASE TO ANSWER. THEREFORE THE ABUSER ELDER WILL STILL KEEP HIS 'STATION' AND HIS STATUS. THE VICTIM WILL BE SEEN AS A LIAR AND / OR SLANDERER AND WILL BE SHUNNED BY OTHERS IN THE CONGREGATION. IF THE VICTIM CONTINUES TO COMPLAIN THEY WILL BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED. 
Simple enough for you all to understand I hope. I thought some of you needed capitals as you seem to find it difficult to read and understand things. 
 

( WELL you are the one now using my name so i will respond to 'others' in case it is not clear. )
And if an Elder should want to hide or destroy evidence in the form of written notes he will. And i think that a video was put up on this forum to show a brother in some position of authority telling elders to destroy evidence. That brother used the excuse that 'satan was coming after the organisation'.  Of course what he really meant was 'this is going to cost the Org lots of money and give it a really bad name' ... '
Also I believe that in the Netherlands, Police invaded the HQ and some Kingdom Halls and a couple of homes, searching for such evidence / documents, as proof of Child Abuse happenings. 
At the headquarters of Jehova's Witnesses in Emmen, an invasion took place on 19 November due to a large-scale investigation into sexual abuse.
Two church buildings, also known as kingdom halls, have also been investigated. One of them is in Dordrecht, the location of the other is still unknown. Four houses were also examined. The police were looking for documents from internal lawsuits, that reportsRTL News .    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My son watched the film 1984, and he said those in charge would say there was 'a variation' in different things, but it actually meant there was a lesser amount being offered for the same cost... When our rent goes up the Council use that same word 'variation' instead of rise in cost. Do you understand where I'm coming from ?  The GB of JW Org is just doing the same thing as the world does, playing with words to serve their own purpose..
There are 'whistleblowers' in the world to show us how bad the ruling classes treat the lower classes. 
I am very pleased that there are 'Whistleblowers' within the JW Org too, to prove how bad the GB and the Org really is.
TTH pretends all is well and Anna backs up his every comment like a parrot. But in truth we know, nothing has changed. It's just playing with words. Something which TTH loves to do. 
So i will repeat. IF AN ELDER COMMITS CHILD ABUSE AND THERE ARE NOT TWO WITNESSES TO PROVE HE DID IT, THEN HE WILL GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE HIS FELLOW ELDERS WILL RALLY ROUND HIM TO 'PROTEST' HIM.  THERE WILL NOT BE A PROPER ENQUIRY / INQUIRY TO THE SITUATION AS THE ELDERS WILL SAY THERE IS NO INTERNAL CASE TO ANSWER. THEREFORE THE ABUSER ELDER WILL STILL KEEP HIS 'STATION' AND HIS STATUS. THE VICTIM WILL BE SEEN AS A LIAR AND / OR SLANDERER AND WILL BE SHUNNED BY OTHERS IN THE CONGREGATION. IF THE VICTIM CONTINUES TO COMPLAIN THEY WILL BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED. 
Simple enough for you all to understand I hope. I thought some of you needed capitals as you seem to find it difficult to read and understand things. 
 

I think you have actually proved my point thanks. 
" The legal age for taking up the profession of priest was about 30 years. "
And that was when Jesus got baptised.  
It's quite funny how some folks want to use the Bible situations as examples, but only when it suits them. 

You have a higher % of sextalk in your postings than WT material though.

My ultimate goal is to drive the gin-soaked Librarian into insolvency, the old hen.

I get the feeling TTH is like a clever drugs dealer.  The clever drugs dealer gives away small quantities of drugs to get people started on taking them regularly. Then when the people need the drugs, the dealer starts charging them money for them. 
Perhaps TTH is giving away 'samples' of his 'works' just to get people 'hooked' on his books. Then, he will start charging high prices. This time next year he'll be a millionaire.