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JOHN BUTLER

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  1. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    ahh, do not worry, this typing errors comes with age and common vision problems  
  2. Thanks
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Of course, not everyone did, or could. I doubt they expected even such a high percentage as they got. The excitement shows it.
    *** km 5/74 p. 3 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
    Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.
    The specific quote about a future in school is in the Awake! but not in the Watchtower Online Library, but you've probably seen it. Also, a circuit assembly in 1971 influenced me to quit school, but I have no notes on which talk it was.
    If the end had come in the mid-70s as expected, no one would have needed professionals. Up until 1975 Bethel HQ had used very few professionals, but in 1976, they accepted computer professionals to start a computer department (my roommate and another friend from St. Louis), electronics professionals (including my brother) to develop some programmable controllers, a second surgeon to live near Bethel to back up Doctor Dixon, etc.
    But professionals can always be recruited. Or we could rely on worldly people. Jehovah provides.
    Also, I don't think you or I can impute wrong motives of the GB claiming that they wanted dumb people to domineer. Higher education is considered "dangerous" to one's spirituality because, in practice, many Witnesses leave the organization when they go to college. A very high percentage. I understand that there are still some mixed feelings about higher education among the GB.
  3. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    @Anna quote " They wouldn't need anyone to teach them (perhaps such as the scribes and pharisees?). " 
    Or a Governing Body ? 
    Quote "These ones need spiritual instruction just like everyone else." The clue comes in the last 4 words 
    What the W/t writer is saying is that the Anointed need instruction from the GB / Writing dept' just like everyone else.
    Quote "Otherwise you would be saying God discriminates on account of position, that somebody with a higher position has more value in God’s eyes than someone of a lowly position. "
    If 'Experiences' (in Yearbooks / Watchtowers etc)  are to be believed, then it would seem that God / Jesus Christ has / have saved some brothers/sisters in certain circumstances, but not saved other brothers/sisters in other circumstances. Now both God and His Son work in their own ways, working together as one, and i would never question what they do. I am humble enough to know that their ways are much higher than mine. But they must have their reasons for saving some and not others. (If experiencies are to be believed). 
    An example of a supposed 'experience' : A sister was on the ministry and knocked on the door of a man. The man turned her away. The man was later arrested for rape/murder of a woman in his own home. When questioned as to why he did not invite the sister in etc, as she had been his first visitor. The man said that she 'had a man stood either side of her', she was not alone. But the sister had gone in to the ministry alone, so the 'man either side of her' must have been angels guarding her. ... True or false I do not know, but I do know it was offered as an 'experience' at a meeting a long time ago. 
     
     
  4. Thanks
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    If you are looking for reasons not to believe these experiences, it's always easy to find such stories that are told in ways that make them unbelievable. I know there are several Mormon missionary stories that use the idea of two angels protecting someone on his left and right, which also matches a Mormon scripture. A story of 26 angels guarding someone (non-Mormon) was treated by snopes.com, a would-be fact checking site for all kinds of email stories and Internet rumors.
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/26-guards/
    “Potential victim’s attacker is scared off by guardian angels” is a common glurge theme. (Another widely-circulated tale about a girl who barely avoids becoming the victim of a rapist also draws upon this theme)
    In fact, that link to "rapist" is to another snopes debunkable which has been told in versions quite similar to the Witness version: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/alley-oops/
    Many non-Witnesses would be happy to believe that such an experience happened to a Witness, but many Witnesses would be troubled by the fact that non-Witnesses have claimed such experiences, too, and would probably doubt those claims.
    As you say, however, we cannot question that there may indeed be many cases of divine protection. An thought about why "some and not others" is found in the latter portion of the response to the second link above about the rapist. It's a bit off topic so I won't go into it further, but thought you might find it interesting
  5. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Anna in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Which is true. The Bible has been written for everyone's spiritual instruction. The Bible is the instructor. Without reading it, the holy spirit wouldn't be able to bring anything out.  John 14:26  "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you". Jesus was telling his disciples they would recall everything he taught them, and they wrote it down for us, and today the holy spirit will help us to recall what we have read. Holy spirit is also needed to understand what they wrote. Not everyone understands, because if they did, we wouldn't have so many contradictory "Christian teachings" based on the same writings.
    In other words:
    In context, John was writing about those anointed in the first century. At that time only the Hebrew scriptures were available.  He said the holy spirit would anoint them and guide them into all the truth. They wouldn't need anyone to teach them (perhaps such as the scribes and pharisees?). This is why the apostles were able to write the Christian Greek scriptures. They were under inspiration from the holy spirit. And they were commissioned to spread the good news about the Kingdom and Jesus with the holy spirit helping them.
    John, we are going round in circles because we are both talking about two different things. Maybe that’s my fault because I have not explained it very well. Yes, more will be demanded of the one who was given a bigger job. Logically! But that does not change that all people’s LIVES have the same worth. Otherwise you would be saying God discriminates on account of position, that somebody with a higher position has more value in God’s eyes than someone of a lowly position. In fact God has chosen the lowly ones to put the more important ones to shame. Intellect, power, position and wisdom are not deciding factors in whether God approves of them more than another person. God reads hearts.
    I was using the word Judge as a verb, not a noun:
    Judge  (noun)
    1.a public official appointed to decide cases in a court of law.
    2.a person who decides the results of a competition or watches for infractions of the rules.
    3. a person able or qualified to give an opinion on something.
    Judge (verb)
    1.form an opinion or conclusion about. come to the conclusion, conclude, decide, determine; consider, believe, think, deem, view;
     
     
  6. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to TrueTomHarley in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    In fairness, he has downvoted me, and he will no longer have occasion to downvote @James Thomas Rook Jr.. For the next year, James says, we will hear nothing from him...zip...zero...nada...as he writes the successor to Asimov’s trilogy.
    Of course, I am keeping a sharp eye out for that work. I may already have spotted it in a recent novel of a mysterious visit from a planet of apostates! “We come in peace,” they say slyly upon deboarding their craft. “See? We have shaved our beards. Take us to your leaders. How many are there of them now? Seven? Eight?” I don’t trust them.
    There is a earthing character whom everyone likes named TrueTim. He approaches and extends a hand of welcome, only to be savagely rebuffed. “Get your hands off us, you damned dirty ape!” they bellow. 
     
     
  7. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Reading that W/t,  Paragraph 10  contradiction by GB against God's word.
    As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but the anointing from him is teaching you about all things and is true and is no lie. Just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.”  1 John 2 v 27
    But GB says in Watchtower  "These ones need spiritual instruction just like everyone else." 
    Look at the scripture they are using,  and you do not need anyone to be teaching you;
    Complete contradiction of God's word. 
  8. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    John 10:16 
      New International Version
    I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.   NWT “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;n those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.   This does show a distinction. It shows that Jesus was only talking to the Anointed.    @Anna Quote " I think the WT that talked about the anointed wished to highlight that there is no difference between the anointed still on earth, and the earthly class, apart from their future destinations. "   You make this statement with nothing to back it up. I've asked you for scriptural backing and you refuse to give any. You do not even quote which W/T it came from. Maybe it just came from 'your own mind' ?    I at least have given a scripture which proves that Jesus was talking to the Anointed only. He said 'other sheep' and said 'those too', meaning a different type of sheep / people. 
  9. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    It's not about partiality, it's about position and responsibility.  
    A manager would use a foreman / chargehand to give instruction to the workers, but the manager may like the workers as much as the manager likes the foreman / chargehand.. However the foreman / chargehand would have a higher position within the company than the workers would... 
     
  10. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    There I gave you a smile. I thought you were funny. So don't cry Kid. 
    The old saying, 'If you don't like the heat then stay out of the kitchen', comes to mind.
    I give as good as I take from others, you included. I have no idea why you should let it bother you how I vote.  But if it gives you a reason to say something negative about me then I'm sure that makes you happy. 
    I love you Kid. Because God's word tells us to love our enemies.  Matthew 5 v 44
    Berean Study Bible
    But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. 
  11. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;   
    I mean on change that is visible in aspects as; Kill "apostates"  vs turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc.    100% change
    The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.
    “If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.
    David prayer against his enemies:
    May the table set before them become a snare;
        may it become retribution and a trap.
    23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
        and their backs be bent forever.
    24 Pour out your wrath on them;
        let your fierce anger overtake them.
    25 May their place be deserted;
        let there be no one to dwell in their tents.
    26 For they persecute those you wound
        and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
    27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
        do not let them share in your salvation.
    28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
        and not be listed with the righteous.
  12. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Exact same thing that Allen Smith accused me of stating, too. It's still just as untrue. Fred Franz did not endorse the assumption of the end of the world in 1975. I've sometimes been the first to correct that false notion when naive opposers have made such a claim about Fred Franz on this very forum. For Fred Franz it was not about him endorsing 1975. Fred Franz considered it "an appropriate time for God to act" based on the unscriptural idea he held at the time that the creative days must have each been 7,000 years long, and that God's great rest day, should appropriately include the 1,000 year reign and still end end within a very short period of time after the year 2975. (The year 2975 was listed in the chart in the 1966 book, "Life Everlasting In the Freedom of the Sons of God.") The Watchtower that same year said:
    *** w68 8/15 pp. 499-500 pars. 30-33 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
    Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes.
    But it was always more about the closeness to 1975, since 1975 marked the 6,000th year of that 7,000 year period. You might be aware that I've been consistent about that point all along on this forum. 1975 got emphasized because of that available point of measurement, yet it was NEVER stated that the world would end in 1975, nor that Armageddon or the end of this system would occur in that year. The point was that it MIGHT, which was a very true statement; we had no reason to believe it couldn't. And we had every reason to be extra alert because we were given many reasons to believe that the end of the system must have been about to occur, not necessarily in 1975, but at least in the decade of the 1970's. From just before the 1970's started, right up until early in the year 1975, the year was emphasized because it was "Biblical" date in a sense, but no one ever said that the end could not come before 1975, or even a few years after 1975.
    Combined with our view of world events at the time, this made sense and many statements were made that would convince a normal person that Armageddon could come in 1975 or within a matter of months, not years, beyond 1975.
    *** w68 8/15 p. 499 par. 30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
    It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.
    To a careful reader, this statement says that at the most we had about until October 1977 until we entered the last thousand years of that "rest period" which would (appropriately and lovingly and purposefully) run parallel with the thousand year reign of Christ. (Because after 1977 it would now no longer just be a measure of months, but years, in the plural, and we had just been told that it may be weeks or months, but NOT YEARS.) Then a small note in the same Watchtower reminded us that another factor might add or subtract 6 months to that limit. This could potentially have pushed that maximum limit out until April 1978. 
    This explains why the talks, the Awake! and Watchtower magazine covers, Circuit Assembly lapel badge messages, and even Watchtower subscription campaigns (in the late 60s and early 70s) made several references to the "mid-70s," "the decade of the 1970's," "What will the 1970's bring?" "Who will conquer the world in the 1970's?" etc.
    *** w71 9/15 p. 561 pars. 10-12 Set Apart from the World ***
    With populations exploding all over the earth, many nations now stand at the brink of starvation, and disaster is predicted by experts for the mid-1970’s. Rather than fit in with political promises of a bright, materialistic tomorrow, this devastation on earth fits Jehovah’s prophecies on mankind’s waywardness in the “last days.” . . .  And now, as we enter the 1970’s, an astonishing picture presents itself.
    *** w69 11/1 p. 668 How to Avoid Regrets ***
    Just as we looked back over the past five years, let us look five years into the future. That will be the year 1974. What will we be regretting then? What are we doing right now, or failing to do now, that years from now we will wish we had done or had done differently? Jehovah has provided sufficient information so that we can definitely know the trend of future events. His Word reveals that we are without question fast approaching the end of this entire wicked system of things. (Matt. 24:3-14; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 John 2:17) . . .
    So when the end of this system of things soon comes, what will be our greatest need?
    But it was not even a new point about the end of the 6,000 years ending in the 1970's:
    *** w74 8/15 p. 507 No Spiritual “Energy Crisis” for Discreet Ones ***
    In 1943 the Watch Tower Society’s book “The Truth Shall Make You Free” did away with the nonexistent extra 100 years in the period of the Judges and placed the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence in the 1970’s. It also fixed the beginning of Christ’s presence, not in 1874, but in 1914 C.E.
    Back then (in 1943), the end of 6,000 years was not 1975, but 1976. And it was also not a new point to discuss the gap between Adam's creation and Eve's creation that could effect the expectation of the 1,000 year reign starting immediately that year. The only difference was that all the arguments were for a longer time gap between Adam and Even, and by 1968, all the arguments were for a shorter time gap between Adam and Eve.
    *** w55 2/1 p. 95 Questions From Readers ***
    . . . six thousand years of God’s rest day would be ending in the fall of 1976. However, from our present chronology (which is admitted imperfect) at best the fall of the year 1976 would be the end of 6,000 years of human history for mankind, 6,000 years of man’s existence on the earth, not 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period. Why not? Because Adam lived some time after his creation in the latter part of Jehovah’s sixth creative period, before the seventh period, Jehovah’s sabbath, began.
    Why, it must have taken Adam quite some time to name all the animals, as he was commissioned to do. Further, it appears from the New World Bible Translation that, even while Adam was naming the animals, other family kinds of living creatures were being created for Adam to designate by name. (Gen. 2:19 footnote d, NW) It was not until after Adam completed this assignment of work that his helpmate Eve was created. Since God created nothing new whatever on the seventh day, Eve must have been created on the sixth day; and this the divine record confirms in its account of the sixth day: “God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.”—Gen. 1:27, NW.
    The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date.
    This was the big difference in emphasis about 1975. Note, how every point of "delay" above is refuted just 13 years later:
    *** w68 8/15 pp. 499-500 pars. 30-33 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
    Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.
    31 In regard to Adam’s creation it is good to read carefully what the Bible says. Moses in compiling the book of Genesis referred to written records or “histories” that predated the Flood. The first of these begins with Genesis 1:1 and ends at Genesis 2:4 with the words, “This is the history of the heavens and the earth . . . ” The second historical document begins with Genesis 2:5 and ends with verse two of chapter five. Hence we have two separate accounts of creation from slightly different points of view. In the second of these accounts, in Genesis 2:19, the original Hebrew verb translated “was forming” is in the progressive imperfect form. This does not mean that the animals and birds were created after Adam was created. Genesis 1:20-28 shows it does not mean that. So, in order to avoid contradiction between chapter one and chapter two, Genesis 2:19, 20 must be only a parenthetical remark thrown in to explain the need for creating a “helper” for man. So the progressive Hebrew verb form could also be rendered as “had been forming.”—See Rotherham’s translation (Ro), also Leeser’s (Le).
    32 These two creation accounts in the book of Genesis, though differing slightly in the treatment of the material, are in perfect agreement with each other on all points, including the fact that Eve was created after Adam. So not until after this event did the sixth creative day come to an end. Exactly how soon after Adam’s creation is not disclosed. “After that [Adam and Eve’s creation] God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day.” (Gen. 1:31) After the sixth creative day ends, the seventh one begins.
    33 This time between Adam’s creation and the beginning of the seventh day, the day of rest, let it be noted, need not have been a long time. It could have been a rather short one. The naming of the animals by Adam, and his discovery that there was no complement for himself, required no great length of time. The animals were in subjection to Adam; they were peaceful; they came under God’s leading; they were not needing to be chased down and caught. It took Noah only seven days to get the same kinds of animals, male and female, into the Ark. (Gen. 7:1-4) Eve’s creation was quickly accomplished, ‘while Adam was sleeping.’ (Gen. 2:21) So the lapse of time between Adam’s creation and the end of the sixth creative day, though unknown, was a comparatively short period of time. The pronouncement at the end of the sixth day, “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good,” proves that the beginning of the great seventh day of the creative week did not wait until after Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the Garden of Eden.
  13. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    I believe you probably have seen such a list.
    But I never made such a list. I could try, but I'd probably only get about 14 of them right. Still, I imagine it would be difficult to track and manage all of these personas without a list of some kind. So I wouldn't doubt your claim. 
  14. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Matthew9969 in JW Dress Rules   
    Of course jw men can move just fine while singing along to worship music, they just stand there.
  15. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    @JW Insider  Quote "(Romans 13 could be invoked as "the sword" of the authorities -- paying back Caesar's things to Caesar, etc.)"
    Are but problem there was, Romans 13 was being misused at the time, to mean God and Jesus Christ. 
  16. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    @JW Insider  Quote " Surely if the Bible says be no part of the world, and love your enemy, etc., anyone could easily interpret this to mean that support of the military is support of the "enemy" which is Satan's world and it's machinations. "
    I totally disagree with you on this, but as I've mentioned to @Anna that the Society / GB were misusing the Superior Authority scripture in Romans 13. 
    If the Romans scripture had been used correctly then it would have meant they would have been submitting to those Superior Authorities that God had put in place. If it was 'orders from', then it was not showing 'support for', it was just being 'obedient to'. Big difference in my humble opinion. 
  17. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Now this is very wrong indeed. However I'm wondering if this fits in with the misuse of the Romans 13 scripture concerning the 'superior authorities'. 
    The Society / GB were still misusing this scripture until 1962 I think. So JW's could not use that scripture correctly and say they had to obey the Superior Authorities' meaning the Government / Secular Authority..... Because the Society /GB were telling lies and pretending it meant God and Jesus Christ. 
    From 1929 to 1962, the Superior Authorities became “the Most High God Jehovah and his exalted Son Jesus Christ.” (This Means Everlasting Life (1950) p.197)
    Which is absolutely stupid as the scripture says :- 
     Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,a for there is no authority except by God;b the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.c 2  Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.
    Note :  'stand placed in their relative positions by God'. So if you believed the Society /GB they were saying that the Most High God Jehovah, was 'placed in his relative positions by God'. It makes no sense at all. 
    Now back to other stupid ideas.
    1. that communal work was as bad as killing people. 
    2. that it really mattered who gave the  orders. 
    Which takes us back to Superior Authorities being placed in their position by GOD. And if the Armed Forces are part of the Superior Authority because they enforce that authority, then so be it. 
    The fact that it was perceived being "the same as"   shows a complete lack of spiritual guidance. 
     
  18. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    I would not go to war in the real sense of going prepared to kill people. But I would work on a farm producing food. 
    I would not vote for a person or political party. I would not become part of a political party. I would not salute the flag. 
    But :- 
    Matthew 5 v 41 
    "And if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles."
     
     
  19. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Yep do it in secret. Just like the GB does.   
  20. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    @Anna Quote" I think the WT that talked about the anointed wished to highlight that there is no difference between the anointed still on earth, and the earthly class, apart from their future destinations. So if there is no difference.. "
    A bit presumptuous to assume that the WT is right. Just because the GB / Writing dept' says the Anointed on earth and the earthly class are the same, does not prove that they are the same. What it does is say that the WT are saying they are the same...
    If you want to hang on every word the GB / Writing dept' say, that is of course your right. But don't expect everyone else to do the same. 
    How many scriptures did the WT use in full to make the point you've mentioned ?  Can you repeat those scriptures ? 
     
  21. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Anna in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Yep do it in secret. Just like the GB does.   
  22. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Equivocation in RUSSIA, BROTHERS & SISTERS CLEANING ONCE A YEAR, ALL THE GARDENS OF THE CITY WHERE THEY LIVE ❤   
    My attitude? Last time you said something along the lines of not knowing me, things of that nature. So it turns out you were lying this whole time and your former comment was a sham. Well not that speaks volumes of how you are, Pops. I shown respect at all times with everyone I speak or preach to. 
    Also, don't assume things, otherwise it makes you look like foolish because you don't know how the situation began and ended.
    These guys don't care what faith you have and they are the first to engage conversation or a discussion with you.
    The discussion alone is about Who God is and what he is. Not only the aggressor who became angry after each verse he still believes that God is void of all emotions and doesn't not consider us as important. These types of people also twist Scripture to make God appear as though he is evil and these guys assume Satan is the hero in this sense.
    So I guess you agree with this people who hold this view, huh.
    You don't know these people or confronted them, dont be ignorant. 
    If you dont know people like this exist, then that tells you something about who you are, John.
  23. Confused
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Equivocation in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    Whoa, didn't get the memo for the wedding. Other than that the both of them write better than me, that's for sure. 
  24. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Equivocation in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    And what's that supposed to mean? Because I caught you assuming something and called you out? How is that strange?
    After all you said those things, not me, was being honest.
    That is, do you want me to refer to you as an apostate so you can proudly boil those eggs of yours? 
    You played this game last time, Pops, and you're too up there in age for that.
    But yeah, I don't see you as one. I know apostates when I see them, even the aggresive ones that someone who I've calmed down, want to inflict pain to. Some apostates dont realize they are making enemies among themselves and outside. 
  25. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit   
    If there is not a clear demarcation of the priesthood/anointed ones in the organization, we have to ask ourselves why.  In Israel, it was evident who were of the line of Aaron and who should serve as a priest.  If the Watchtower organization belongs to God and Christ, then again there would be no question who his priests are, under our High Priest, Christ. 
    Jesus said you will recognize those whom he sends by their fruits – their teachings as his priests.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; John 13:20; Matt 7:15-20   He also said there would be a ruling power over them during the last days that would remove their “sacrifices” of praise; their voice, before God and Jesus.   Dan 7:7,8,21,23,25; 8:10; Rev 13:1,11; Heb 13:15
    Not until his priests speak up using their spiritual voice in defense of Christ; causing them to be “killed”/disfellowshipped and detached from the ruling power,  (John 16:2) will we then have the ability to hear/see their fruits.  In the organization, the anointed priesthood is kept under lock and key in obedience to the counterfeit priests, the elder body, and a wicked slave.  Rev 13:11-15 
    This results in anonymity.  Would God’s organization allow this to exist? 
    “But you and your sons with you shall attend to your priesthood for everything concerning the altar and inside the veil, and you are to perform service. I am giving you the priesthood as a bestowed service, but the *outsider who comes near shall be put to death."  Num 18:7
    “Have you not driven out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron and the Levites, and made for yourselves priests like the peoples of other lands? Whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams, even he may become a priest of what are no gods. 2 Chron 13:9
    This early arrangement of worship was made according to the “heavenly pattern” shown Moses on the mountain.  We now have a superior High Priest, the cornerstone of the Temple of God. Heb 7:26  His “living stones” /priesthood of that Temple must be servants only to their High Priest and God. 1 Cor 3:16,17   If the Watchtower organization belongs to God, we would clearly see this in action.  Instead, we see the power of men publicly announcing to God’s priesthood, not to BOND together under their only High Priest, Jesus Christ.  This is all accomplished under a cloak of divine direction. 
    Who would be behind this idea, the backbone promoting a lie?  Who does not want to see the coming Kingdom of God and the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise (“woman”)?  Gen 3:14,15; Rev 12:7,9,17
    Who can easily dupe people with the offer of riches, power and authority; which during the time of the end, conquers God’s priesthood with lies?  Luke 4:5-7; Matt 24:24; Rev 13:11,12,1,2,5-7; 2 Cor 11:14,15
     
     
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