JOHN BUTLER

I remember watching a very stupid 'horror' film about monsters in the mist. 
A man was in his car with his parents who were very old, in thick mist, and they could hear the monsters getting closer. 
The man had a gun with only two bullets in. He didn't want the monsters to get his parents so they decided the best plan was to use the two bullets to kill both his parents. They did this. And then the man was just sat there in the car with his dead parents, waiting for the monsters to get him. But all of a sudden the armed forces arrived with tanks and big guns, the mist started to clear, and the man was saved. However to others it would have looked like he had just murdered his parents. The film ended with the man stood by his car watching the armed forces attacking the monsters. 
I recall that because it helps me to realise that a person has to act on the situation / facts known, that they have at that particular time. A person's motives may be for the good, but to others it looks as if they are for the bad. 
It is therefore a wonderful thing that God, and Jesus Christ, can see all things and know all things. They know us better than we know ourselves. They judge us from a standpoint that we will never understand. Their ways are much higher than our ways. 
Raymond Franz, I would say it is not our place to judge him.
However I do think it is the place of JW's to judge the GB or GB decisions, because the GB run the JW Organisation. And i do think it is the right of JW's to judge the way the organisation is being run and the 'rules' it is run by. 
Therefore I think there should be more clarity, more openness, in the JW Org. So that members can make a fair judgement of whether they want to be part of such an organisation. 
I do think that in the first century, the running of the Christian 'organisation' was much simpler and more open.  
Acts 15 v 28 & 29
For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”
Those people hearing those word would have fully understood what they meant. It seems to be all that was needed at that time. 
So when some on here try to compare those days to now, in my opinion it is not possible to make a real comparison. 
Ex-JW's that have known and still remember problems from within the JW Org should of course whenever possible warn others of any dangers of being part of the JW Org. A good person would not want to send anyone into a cage of lions, even if those lions were purring like pleasant pussy cats. 
JW's still in the JW Org should also, and probably even more so, warn others of problems / dangers within the JW Org, but it is a danger for them to do so. 
I think that the more the JW Organisation pushes about Satan ruling the world, and that everyone outside the Org is part of the devil's world, then the more those that have information should push to show Satan's influence inside the JW Org. It's called balance, and honesty.
The Watchtower and the CCJW are not God. The GB are not God. The Elders are not God nor Jesus Christ.
So do not let anyone replace God or Jesus Christ with humans of any kind or status. 

So there you had a member of the GB, who was supposed to be of the 'Faithful and discreet slave ' and he had opinions that should have been guided by God's Holy Spirit. 
And he had been involved in writing important books telling everyone about the JW Org.
Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate. Because he spent time with a disassociated person.
Yes, what a 'wonderful' GB you have. What a wonderful Org you have. What a lot of hypocrites you follow. 

Those seeking truth, not position or just friendship. People like myself, but better than me, that don't mind being shunned for truth. 
And it seems there are people on here looking for truth rather than looking for the easy way. 
The JW Org is the easy way now because there are so many JW's that a person can live their whole life in the Org. 
That is why so many are frightened of the Elders, and frightened to look for truth, because being in the Org has become a comfortable way of life in the Western world. To lose the Org for some people would be the worst thing that could ever happen to them. 
Hence many chose the GB and JW Org, over God and Jesus Christ. 

@Anna  I quoted from FelixCA  " If you’re a person that is looking for excuses to fade or leave, promote this book if you must, just keep the Watchtower and faithful followers of Christ out. Perhaps JW only would be more suitable to discuss this among yourselves since no one will be able to refute misguided understanding." 

So, the thoughts of men. Or it seems the thoughts of one man. 
To be sure God had no part in such reasoning. 
It seems homosexuality and probably sex with animals was enough for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but not enough for divorce it seems  

Jealous ? Is his book getting more attention than yours ?  

Well you would probably call me an apostate, but I'm only apostate to the JW Org. And yes I still believe in God and Jesus Christ. 
But you seem to want to jump on the JW bandwagon about apostates, so be it. 

If Christ, who is one in Spirit with the Father (John 17:22),  did not know who would betray him when choosing the 12 apostles, then how does the uninspired GB know they are the "faithful and discreet slave"?    Luke 3:8; Matt 7:16

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.  John 12:4-6
Do you really believe it took Jesus that long to find out that Judas was corrupt?  Jesus, who knew the hearts of men?
Here's another example:
"Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat.  When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven".  At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"  Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?"    Matt 9:2-4
 
Firstly, they state it as fact that Judas was faithful to God and Jesus, then make the supposition that John "must have meant" that Jesus didn't recognize Judas as "bad" until almost a year after he chose him, and that this is what is meant by "from the beginning".  Judas belonged to Satan "from the beginning" as his spawn,  right along with the Pharisees.
 Watchtower’s leaders are so adept at lessening  and hiding the power of Christ; yet, he predicted Peter’s denial of the Christ before Peter fulfilled his words. Luke 22:34    He was a prophet AND the Son of God;  have JWs forgotten this?
I hope you can reason on this through the scriptures, Melinda.  
 
 

@Equivocation  Quote " But if a suit and tie is that bad, why are you wearing a suit and tie, let alone clothing if you say it is tradition of man? " 
When i was in the JW Org, I obeyed the rules. Rules of men. I didn't want to deliberately cause trouble or to embarrass my family by being moaned at by the police, sorry I mean Elders, of the congregation. 
We had an Elder in the congregation, a big man, that really suffered with the heat causing him problems. He never wore a jacket or tie in the hall, BUT he still had to wear a suit and tie when he went up on the platform. They had to put a big electric fan on the edge of the stage each time he was on there. So tell me where is the love and consideration for that Elder ?
And yes they didn't question him for not wearing a jacket and tie in the hall, but I did get 'spoken to' once for not wearing a tie, hence in future I conformed. 
In my opinion it becomes 'traditions of men' when it is not scriptural but is still enforced by 'those in power', the GB down to the Elders. 
And yes certain types of clothing are traditions of men if dictated by humans.
This point has been proven by women in certain secular jobs having to wear high heeled shoes all day, when they would prefer to wear flat comfortable shoes. I believe this has got to the point of actual court cases. I think that proves the tradition of MEN in the true sense. 
And the suit and tie was supposed to represent decency, honesty, trustworthiness, etc. But in many cases it was just used to trick people into thinking that way. However, it has been carried forward to this day, as a tradition of men. 
So is it still necessary ? 

Are you foreign that you do not understand English properly ? No disrespect if you are, but it would give me reason to know why you misinterpret  everything i  write.
It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons,  that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case....  
Hitler could not have done any of the wicked deeds without the majority of Germany backing him.  The  Germans may not have backed him because they wanted to, but maybe out of fear. Just as JW's serve the GB through the Elders, out of fear. 
Just as people come on here , this forum, but use pseudonyms, out of fear of being found out by the Elders.
Felix i see you are using the GB's idea of suggesting people are mentally unstable. Typical Watchtower doctrine. 
Sorry Admin but I'm just answering Felix. Perhaps Felix should start another topic of should i just ignore him ?  
But let's get back on topic. A question 
Is it a disfellowshipping offence to read Raymond Franz books, or to own them ? 

People always seem to harp back to 2000 years ago, to try to make a defence for the GB. 
Different times, different situations.
Judas allowed himself to be misled by the devil, but it also seems it was necessary that the betrayer came from within. 
Maybe you should have quoted this bit as well. "Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate."
Because it seems Raymond Franz didn't betray God or Jesus Christ.
Knowledge of such things is way over my head of course, so I don't know who was right in God's viewpoint.
But it does give a person reason to distrust the GB if RF wasn't found guilty of any real wrongdoing. 

My brothers and sisters and I all wear jeans, khaki's, etc and t-shirts/nice shirts during our worship. I do so because while I am worshipping/singing along with the music I can raise my hands to God in worship. Can't do that in a suit and tie which pretty much constricts your movement making you stiff. 

Hi! 
I see this subject this way. If somebody made decision, rule (that in KH meeting) how particular clothes and details in clothes are only acceptable (but some other fashion is even forbidden or just "not good")  for people who coming in KH, then after some time, this rule come to be tradition. And in general, with time passing, members will not consider this as just rule but as tradition, folkloric issue, for particular people in particular social group, JW community in this case.   

“At some point”. Yes, he prayed because he said he did nothing but what the Father told him.  John 5:30; 8:28.  Since God knows all things, do you believe He would keep Judas as the betrayer a secret from Jesus, letting him find out on his own?   You are saying Jesus had no ability given him by God, to read the heart of man. Scriptures say otherwise.  John 2:23-25; 6:64  Judas was chosen as a betrayer.  It sounds like your saying that Jesus was in the dark about who of the 12, would betray him until he proved himself to be a thief.  Both God and Christ knew his heart.  John 2:23-25.  Jesus knew “from the beginning”.  “He knew all men”.   
John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Do you believe he didn't know how he would die, or that Pilate would be instrumental in sending him to his death at the demand of the Pharisees?  He knew exactly how it would happen and by whom. 
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”   John 8:54-58
Judas’ role as the betrayer was fulfilled. Ps 41:9; Mark 14:19-21   Jesus’ choice for the twelfth apostle was Paul; another stumbling block most likely, for JWs. He personally chose all 12 apostles, as well as who would betray him.  Matthias was chosen by men, who cast lots. Acts 1:26
Here are examples of Jesus’ knowing what was in the heart of each person even before speaking with them.
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Mark 2:6-8
 
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.” 49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” John 18:47-49
How did Jesus see him?  Spiritually, physically?  How did he determine that Nathaneal had “no deceit” unless he read his heart?  John 18:47-49
 
 
 
 

So, the thoughts of men. Or it seems the thoughts of one man. 
To be sure God had no part in such reasoning. 
It seems homosexuality and probably sex with animals was enough for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but not enough for divorce it seems  

I’d only do it for Anna and JWI. And even for them there would be height limitations.

So, the thoughts of men. Or it seems the thoughts of one man. 
To be sure God had no part in such reasoning. 
It seems homosexuality and probably sex with animals was enough for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but not enough for divorce it seems  

I think you would willingly follow the GB over a cliff if you were told to. You'd think it was God's will.  
It's not dumb things the GB do, it's deliberate things it seems. 
If a religion does a hundred things they are bound to get a few of them right.
More people are turning to Islam but it doesn't make it right does it ? Lots of religions are 'still running', like an old car.

@Anna  Quote "those who have seen the ‘Truth’  transform lives for the better..."  Misuse of the word Truth. Truth is from God through Jesus Christ, NOT through the GB of JW Org. 
" and have experienced the liberation from Christendom’s false teachings (and other religions) and have seen the puzzle pieces of pure teachings of the Bible become a clear picture, .. "
You jest of course ? When teachings /doctrines change constantly. Twisting the meanings of scripture. Are you sooo blind. ? 
" and those who’s faith is grounded  in Jehovah and not mere man, "  It gets funnier. 
It seems to have been proved that no one should disagree with the GB now, and at that time one member of it . . 
@JW Insider " Fred Franz was always considered the only one who could come up with a change in scriptural doctrine, or "new truth" as we called it. Creating the Governing Body in about 1971 didn't change this. In fact, when a few people started speaking up with questions about doctrine, the GB was expanded with a lot more " F.Franz loyalists" who would never dare vote against F.Franz "
" faith in the Governing Body "  Your words Anna. 
And then you dare to compare the GB with Jesus. "..whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life” "
I know the GB think they are equal or even above Jesus but .... 
JESUS PROVED WHO HE WAS.  It was so clear to those alive there at that time. 
Why do you try to compare those times with now ?  There is no comparison on some things. 

@JW Insider  Quote " Fred Franz was always considered the only one who could come up with a change in scriptural doctrine, or "new truth" as we called it. Creating the Governing Body in about 1971 didn't change this. In fact, when a few people started speaking up with questions about doctrine, the GB was expanded with a lot more " F.Franz loyalists" "
Is this the truth or just your opinion ?  If it is truth then it is a big worry. 
So who rules the GB now then ? 
Each thing i read makes the JW Org seem worse and worse, hence i ask if this information above definitely true or just opinion ? 
Reminds me of when ONE Elder threatened to disfellowship me for slander. He thought he had that authority.  

@TrueTomHarley  Quote " Almost everything on every thread here (at least the ones I frequent) are advancing or defending against an attempt to undermine the earthly organization. The appeal of undermining it is irresistible. "
Sorry to hear you have such a pessimistic view of debate. 
How about considering that some of us are actually looking for truth. God's truth, not GB / JW org truth. 
And again some of us are giving a warning about certain things within the JW Org that may be a danger to others.
 

Quote " Within the Governing Body, he would vote against creating a new rule that married couples could be disfellowshipped for oral sex, for example. " 
Quote "The Watchtower claimed that a man could have homosexual relations with another man or an animal, and it was not "fornication" and thus did not constitute grounds for a scriptural divorce.. "
Oh dear it's gets funnier every day. I'm sorry but I'm sat here laughing.
It really does make the GB look like a group of perverts. 
@JW Insider   So can you please tell me the GB / JW Org views /rules on these two matter now ? 
If I had been asked about what my wife and I did in our sexual activities, I would have told the Elders it's none of their business. It is between Jesus Christ (who has been given the right to judge) and my wife and I. 
The threefold cord, does not include the GB or the Elders. 
Sorry I've just got to add a comment from my wife here, after I talked to her about all this, She said about the GB
" They're not the Messiah, they're very naughty boys " (A line from a film you may know) 

I think that this is entirely the wrongheaded approach, to look at the shortcomings, real or imagined, of those taking the lead. Instead, you should look at what they alone have managed to accomplish.
The best man at my wedding was a man 15 years my senior, crude in some respects, but he taught me how to look over a used car before purchase so as not to get fleeced. He was a lifelong mechanic with an uncanny instinct for instant diagnosis.
He told me about a time when the book & computer, but not common-sense, young mechanics were unsuccessfully trying to fix a car. They had reached an impasse. All the diagnostics they ran confirmed that there was nothing wrong with the car. “There must be SOMETHING wrong with it,” Bud said, “since it doesn’t run.” He found the problem promptly & and it was some quirky thing not mentioned in any book.
With the GB, the situation is just the opposite. You can scrutinize them for all the dumb things that you think they are doing, the things that you have proclaimed “a big worry.” Or you can look at 
and say “They must be doing SOMETHING right, since it DOES run.” Whatever is or is not “wrong” with them, if history is any guide, they or theirs will fix. It will not be “debate” with someone who has demonstrated only a mastery of the “harangue” that will do the trick.

Everything on a forum is partially opinion. But this is based primarily on the opinion of a person who spent 10 years in the Service Dept and nearly 30 years in the Writing Department. It was also the opinion of one of my roommates even after he became an elder and left Bethel. And it is my opinion, of course. I'm sure that many others who were at Bethel during these same years would agree.