JOHN BUTLER

i just went to my Kingdom Interlinear Translation  
Copyright 1985
by WTBTS of Pennsylvania and IBSA
800 000 copies. 
Publishers:  WTBTS of New York inc. and IBSA Brooklyn
Made in USA
IN Greek text not existing word "accordingly"

Of course you are aware that the word accordingly was put in by the GB or writing dept of W/t are't you ?
Hence i gave you the King James version also. 
The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek is this :-
"You shall be therefore you perfect as the Father of you the heavenly perfect is."
That is directly from the Greek hence seems strange BUT no mention of the word ACCORDINGLY.
The GB make it up as they go along. 
And this perfection is expected of the Anointed not of the earthly class. 

If we take in consideration how "voice" of Spirit beside His powerful expressions have other side too, and that is that Spirit is very sensible, soft, coming to human individuals if we allow Him to come. Spirit is (i think) not pushy, demanding, Spirit not love to force other to accepting what He want, but He love our free will and He love to see our give Welcome to Him. To Spirit is easier to approach to us, if in us there is no noise, that kind of noise because of what, we can not hear his quiet and soft voice, call: "Come!, Hear Me!"... or else. But as i express myself in previous comments, Spirit can go wherever He want to go, when ever He want, and to "visit" all people no matter what they are in particular time. Even if you are in mess He can come to you. 
I see sort of "technical problem and spiritual problem" when you mentioned "purpose of meetings" in JW community. Program of meetings are in sphere of Uniformity under common believes how worldwide Unity depends on Same Program for All. This is, i think, one moment when Human Program makes barrier for Free Spirit to come. (two things i have in mind with Free Spirit, and that is Holy Spirit and your Personal Spirit). 
I am very sure how all of you (us) feel the need for something different when come to meeting. For example, need to sit in peace and silence and thinking about own stuff, or just looking around on other people and to observe, to notice and be perceptive about surrounding ..... But when things are ordered in advance, from day to day, week to week, your current needs, feelings and state of mind can not be satisfied. You became sort of Robot with idea how you must do this or that because other ask you that, it is Expected from you.  Just for little illustration. :))  
This is why i am pleased and have honor to have conversation with few of you here :) 
 

I speak for what our family feels as a JW.
RE Donations: we stopped donations for 3 main reasons,
1. Wasteful use of money in congregations having seen our congragation and many other congregations having 3 HD flat screen TVs upgraded also having a HD projector for broadcasting i reckon is a horrible way to misuse of funds.
2. Not making public knowledge of funds been used for child sex law suits.
3. At the end of each convention always making an announcement how much more funds are needed to cover all costs running the convention, having donated all funds to the organization prior, so.always running in red at the end of each convention.
Re preaching hours; i dont agreed thats how they should count how many active JWs are there as many would just put in any hours just to look good in front of the congregation.
I find it weird how there is always a total figures of active JWs what about having a total tally of active, inactive, disfellowshiped, i dont get why the need of just showing some figures but not others.
Thats one of the reasons we stopped looking at this figures they are so inaccurate that thereis no point of publishing it.
Anyways thats how we feel wrong or right there are many others that feels the same.... 🙄

Not at all. Respecting the teaching of older men in the congregation is a longstanding theme in the Christian Scriptures.
(1 Thessalonians 5:12, 13) . . .Now we request you, brothers, to show respect for those who are working hard among you and presiding over you in the Lord and admonishing you; 13 and to give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.. . . (3 John 9, 10) 9 I wrote something to the congregation, but Di·otʹre·phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not accept anything from us with respect. 10 That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us.. . . (1 Timothy 5:17) 17 Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. Honor is not worship.
(Romans 12:10) 10 In brotherly love have tender affection for one another. In showing honor to one another, take the lead. (1 Peter 2:17) 17 Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, honor the king.
(1 Peter 3:7) . . .Assign them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since they are also heirs with you of the undeserved favor of life, . . .
(1 Timothy 5:3) . . .Give consideration to [Greek, "honor"] widows who are truly widows.
 
This idea of "double honor" is scriptural and has nothing to do with worship.
 
Sure! If we think he is "presiding in a fine way" or presiding over us "in the Lord." (For me, he is not, although I respect the fact that he appears to be presiding in some ways that are better than previous Popes.) There is nothing wrong with showing respect toward the Pope. He is one of those "men of all sorts." It's not worship. But again we consider the type of honor we show based on how their faith has turned out (Heb 11), whether they are related to us in the faith, whether their position makes them a "superior authority." (For many years, historically, Christians in certain countries would have had to consider the Pope a kind of "king." Note the end of 1 Peter 2:17, above.)
This is not true. We can choose the ideas that encourage us and build us up, and keep talking about these. No one forces us to accept what our conscience won't allow. If we focus on what we agree with, the rest of the congregation is built up. We need not focus on those ideas we don't agree with. Personally, I think it's important to communicate our questions and concerns about questionable teachings, too. But this is not up-building in the congregational setting. It's not the purpose of the meetings.
(Philippians 4:8, 9) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 9 The things that you learned as well as accepted and heard and saw in connection with me, practice these, and the God of peace will be with you. (Hebrews 10:23-25) . . .. 24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.
I believe there is a time and place for everything, and even a time to tear down, rather than build up. A time to speak and a time keep silent:
(Ecclesiastes 3:1-7) 3 For everything there is an appointed time, . . .  a time to plant and a time to uproot what was planted; 3 . . . a time to break down and a time to build; . . .  5 a time to throw stones away and a time to bring stones together; . . . 6 a time to seek and a time to give up as lost; a time to keep and a time to throw away; 7 a time to rip apart and a time to sew together; a time to keep quiet and a time to speak; (Matthew 9:16, 17) 16 Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment, for the new piece pulls away from the garment and the tear becomes worse. 17 Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” I've used this particular forum as a place, outside the congregation, for the time and place to speak up about things I have sought, and things I have given up on. It's a place to discuss whether certain deeply entrenched things should be thrown out, preserved, or whether they should just be patched up.
(Edited to add: If JW.ORG had a place for comments it would be a mess, but I look forward to a time when this is possible in some way. In the meantime, I'll try to refine and question my own beliefs here or another place where I might find persons willing to discuss questionable issues.)

Srecko I love reading your comments. You make sense and talk truth. 
But i am yet to find how to move forward. 

Matthew 5 v 48.  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NWT)
King James Version.  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 
Perfection can possibly mean different things to different people, especially to God. 
Adam was created perfect, but he could not fly. If he had jumped off a mountain and tried he would have been in trouble. Does that mean he was not perfect ? I don't think so.  I think being perfect means being perfect for a specific job. 
The Anointed, that is the TRUE REAL Anointed ones, will be perfect for the work that God has for then to do. 

I can give example of some strange situation in 1 century. Act s 19:1-6 is first that fall on my head :)))
In the course of events, while A·polʹlos+ was in Corinth, Paul went through the inland regions and came down to Ephʹe·sus.+ There he found some disciples 2  and said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when you became believers?”+ They replied to him: “Why, we have never heard that there is a holy spirit.” 3  So he said: “In what, then, were you baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.”+ 4  Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism in symbol of repentance,+telling the people to believe in the one coming after him,+ that is, in Jesus.” 5  On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6  And when Paul laid his hands on them, the holy spirit came upon them,+ and they began speaking in foreign languages and prophesying.+
Here we see how some disciple have legal status before God even without some knowledge, information or power to speak or doing things that some other disciple can and in fact they doing.
It is strange that this disciple who learned The Truth from John knew nothing about Holy Spirit. Because John was man who was been inspired and guided by that same Holy Spirit??!! And people around them accepted him as Man from God.
In last part of this verses we see how this Ignorant Disciples began speaking and prophesying under the Power Of Spirit. It is normal conclusion, to me, that this disciples did not know, have no clue what they are speaking and prophesying about. Because in one moment they are those who never heard about HS and in another second they have been INSPIRED, even without own will and wish to be inspired. Paul just laid hand on them.
They have been baptized twice :))) ... very confusing situation how Spirit operates in human reality. John baptized Jesus and many other people. But to accept Jesus, Paul told them they have to be baptized again. Imagine possibility how these disciples were baptized on the same day as Jesus?!  
As you see, i can not give example how Free Spirit will or can operate. All i can do is just/only to make questions about.

Quote "as long as we respect the doctrines promoted by the the Governing Body. "
Worship of the Governing Body then ? 
The Governing Body would be respected for the number of years they have spent in Bible study and teaching and therefore "worthy of double honor."
I wonder how many years the Pope has spent in Bible study ? Does that make him worthy of double honour then ? 
The GB had written in the Revelation Book that it might not be true.  And the GB does keep changing the meanings of scripture to suit themselves. 'Superior authorities', comes to mind. 'This Generation' also comes to mind, so don't pretend that I'm wrong in making this statement. 
People think that I'm full of hate, wrong, I'm full of disappointment. Why ? Because i used to 'respect the doctrines promoted by the Governing Body', and now I see how much of my life I have wasted believing in their lies. 
There are rules in the JW Org, basically keep your mouth shut unless you are praising the GB and the Org.
What that does is create unrest and distrust. Relate it to racism. Here in the UK people are not allowed to express their feelings about 'other races'. What that does is cause some people to boil up inside because they cannot let their feelings be known. There is no release valve. 
This is similar in the JW org, and creates similar results. People become apostate because they have not been allowed to ask questions or given permission to express themselves. People leave the JW Org because they feel dominated. 
Quote "In other words, every single doctrine we have, need not be expressed as an unchangeable dogma."
No maybe not, but if a congregant were to disagree with GB doctrine, they would be strongly reproved and watched, then if they continued to disagree they would be disfellowshipped. 

Not only that, but perfection is relative. 

It is good to see that people have a sense of humour and we can indeed thank Jehovah for that. 
I have another topic but must have a cup of coffee first. I'm spending toooo much time on this computer, but it is spiritually upbuilding. 
Have a good day as much as possible. 
 

I've had a busy day and being honest can't be bothered to look up scriptures, yes I know that is a bad attitude but it's honest  BUT :-
Jesus said to His apostles (anointed) " You must be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (or something close to that) .
Plus, the early teaching was that ALL of the Anointed are the Faithful and discreet slave class.  So what gives 8 basically American men the right to suddenly exalt themselves above all the others ?
Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
And if those 8 mainly American men have to resort to lies and deceit to maintain their authority, then that does not have God's approval for sure. 
And why would God feed them false information ? Why would they get so much wrong ? Why would they 'run ahead' of doing God's will? 
Do you forget the scripture of 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' ?  A spiritual Jew should be recognised by his deeds and be able to prove his position. The GB only prove themselves to be false. 
And i also find it funny when someone 'backs up' what they are saying by saying other people / organisations are also doing it.  What difference does it make what all those false religions are doing ? Isn't your JW Org supposed to be the 'only true' religion. 
It's seems we are back to 'offering children to Molech'. Well other religions were doing it so it must be ok  .
Yes Spiritual Jews should exist. The Bible makes that clear. BUT, if not the whole body of Anointed then, IMO, 12 or possibly 13 brothers (for obvious reasons) and all from different nations.
One of the points that i was told when told about the Heavenly class being from Earth, was that when in Heaven they would  remember what life was like here on Earth and have Empathy and understanding. Well likewise, if the were from different nations / countries, they would have more empathy and understanding of people from all around the Earth.  
 

Matthew 5 v 48.  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NWT)
King James Version.  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 
Perfection can possibly mean different things to different people, especially to God. 
Adam was created perfect, but he could not fly. If he had jumped off a mountain and tried he would have been in trouble. Does that mean he was not perfect ? I don't think so.  I think being perfect means being perfect for a specific job. 
The Anointed, that is the TRUE REAL Anointed ones, will be perfect for the work that God has for then to do. 

It is good to see that people have a sense of humour and we can indeed thank Jehovah for that. 
I have another topic but must have a cup of coffee first. I'm spending toooo much time on this computer, but it is spiritually upbuilding. 
Have a good day as much as possible. 
 

It is good to see that people have a sense of humour and we can indeed thank Jehovah for that. 
I have another topic but must have a cup of coffee first. I'm spending toooo much time on this computer, but it is spiritually upbuilding. 
Have a good day as much as possible. 
 

True. I apologize to @The Librarian. I know that he or she had just broken off this particular topic to a new thread which is a bit of a hassle in itself. I pushed the envelope a bit, but mostly to just highlight how the Librarian was correct. Completely new topics can be frustrating. But to the small group participating in this topic, I think it was understandable that Watchtower doctrine of the seven thousand year day would come into this. That would inevitably lead to why there are changes to our doctrines. That would inevitably lead to a discussion of the spiritual guidance of the GB (because it was already a concurrent discussion among a couple of the participants, here).
On a serious note, I think it would be better to just say that there is a discussion about the GB that includes the topic of spirit direction already in progress, so that this part of the topic can be continued over there.

To me - I feel like I am in school if I cannot stray off subject sometimes.  I am not writing a paper....  I am just in a discussion.  The mind always seeks new ideas to explore... So, I am not here to provide people with my research... or to prove something.  I just give them ideas to go and study for themselves. 
I always write from memory... things I have read.... It will take a lot of time to go find the proof  where I read it.
Unfortunately it will be a little harder to study the kind of fossil which loves tacos!  

Thanks Librarian for little "rebuke".  But Fossils (in fact living Creatures at first, before death), in Creation view on matter, will not be possible to find in the ground (or else) and in this topic today too, if the Spirit did not create them. No matter how much we want some words will be part of text no matter of main context.

I made tacos last night. I ate 4. My wife ate 4 (usually eats 2), and my sons came over and ate about 8 between them. I make tacos once every two weeks. Soft corn tortillas are very inexpensive, but I also buy a small box of the crispy "Ortega" hard shells. I find that shopping for the ingredients is simple, because I just imagine a taco and the order in which I always put the items on it. Problem is that the store is set up in such a way that I have to buy the ingredients all out of order. I buy a head of lettuce, a small bag of limes, 2 tomatoes, 1 onion, 1 jalapeno pepper, 1 bunch of cilantro, hard tortillas, salsa, hamburger, cheddar cheese, sour cream, soft tortillas. (Other spices and hot sauce etc are already in the house.) In my youth, I used to fry the soft tortillas in corn oil, but now, I have evolved. I just put a cookie pan in the oven and put a layer of soft tortillas on the bottom and then stand up the hard tortillas on top of them, and another flat layer of soft tortillas on top of the hard ones. This way the crispy ones will bake but will be protected from getting too brown on the portion that is nearest the electric elements of the oven. I can start shopping at 5pm and be completely done chopping the ingredients, cooking the hamburger, and baking the tortillas to serve tacos by 5:55.
I find that the leftover lettuce, cilantro, and salsa doesn't stay fresh enough for two weeks so I use it for salads and spaghetti sauce within the next week. Also, if there are any tortillas, cheese, onions, tomatoes, jalapeno, etc., left over I just sprinkle it all onto flat tortillas and bake them into "chips" for dessert, which can last through the next day.
Sunday morning I make scrambled eggs. But mostly, I like tacos. I'm kind of set in my ways. Like an old fossil.

To me - the bible cannot be separate and science cannot be separate.  Where the  bible does not give guidance we can see if a science idea fits - if it does not fit in with the bible (such as a ploy to negate intelligent design) then it should be rejected.
Jehovah is after all the great scientist, father of logic and reality. 
I have no problem understanding that the earth and heavens were created and then lay fallow for a long time until it was ready to prepare for life.  It obviously took some time for the earth to cool down and produce the water on the surface as well as the thick cloud of gasses above the surface.  
I think logic regarding the science we have available together with bible can explain a lot of things.
 

How can @Srecko Sostar and @JOHN BUTLER learn to stay on topic?
Let's see... the main Topic title is...... wait for it....... FOSSILS!!
Your Topic is..... SPIRIT.....
Let me see..... maybe I can add to this conversation....
I LOVE TACOS! 

:)) do not give up, i am in the  same process

Matthew 5 v 48.  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NWT)
King James Version.  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 
Perfection can possibly mean different things to different people, especially to God. 
Adam was created perfect, but he could not fly. If he had jumped off a mountain and tried he would have been in trouble. Does that mean he was not perfect ? I don't think so.  I think being perfect means being perfect for a specific job. 
The Anointed, that is the TRUE REAL Anointed ones, will be perfect for the work that God has for then to do. 

Srecko I can understand your point.  The GB / JW Org play with words here.  
But I think that any REAL Anointed person would be inspired of Holy Spirit.  Doesn't God's Holy Spirit enter in to them in such a way that they know they are Anointed ?        Galatians 4 v 6&7. 
Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out:“Abba, Father!” 7  So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God.
Being a son and heir is surely being of the Anointed, and thus they have God's spirit 'in their hearts'. Surely that is inspired of Holy Spirit. 

If you don't mind i would like to provide little reminiscence about context in comment of your's.
3 What does Jesus’ illustration about the faithful slave mean? In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost of the year 33, Jesus appointed the faithful slave to care for his domestics. Since then, the slave is all anointed Christians as a group who live on earth at any one time. The domestics are these anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings,” everything on earth that is used to support the Kingdom preaching work. But after carefully studying this subject, praying about it, and meditating on it, we realized that our understanding of Jesus’ words about the faithful and discreet slave needs to be changed. (Proverbs 4:18) Let us discuss the illustration and how it affects us, whether we have the hope of living in heaven or on earth. source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402013533
Right from the start, it is very important to note what the GB says about how (process) the interpretation of the Jesus words/text has changed. They give this explanation: "But after carefully studying this subject, praying about it, and meditating on it."  
As we clearly see here, there  is no single word about influence by Holy Spirit.They not used phrases as "we have been guided by HS" ,or "we have been motivated by HS" and because influence from God's Spirit we made this (small, big, important, not important) changes.
They just done 3 things that every average and responsible JW member (or even JW kid) doing every day. What is it? A) carefully study Bible, B) pray about, and C) meditate.   !!!!   NOTHING more or less!
But it seems how only GB is authorized to change understanding, globally, for all 8 mil JW members. According to WT credo, single JW is not authorized to change own understanding in this very same process that was described in WT magazine and other places in publications. If JW rank and file member dare to change established and official understanding of some GB doctrines, then he/she will be given a lesson and correction, rebuke or discipline. Confession and repentance are expected, or, he/she  coming  to be an apostate and dangerous individual in spiritual paradise.                                                                                                                                                                                           But when GB doing the same thing, no one of them have to show the humility of this kind. No one is above them to "rebuke" their inappropriate behavior. GB expressed false humility by word "we", but "we" almost always have one meaning - all JW community ...  
... and GB pushing COLLECTIVE FEEL OF GUILT FOR ALL WRONG EXPECTATIONS and WRONG INTERPRETATIONS. 
Now, back to the FDS of Mathew.
 
“IF EVER THAT EVIL SLAVE . . .”
Jesus has given the faithful and discreet slave an extremely important responsibility. He has appointed this slave to care for the domestics and to give out spiritual food at the right time. Jesus said that those with greater responsibility have more expected of them. (Luke 12:48) So he ended his illustration about the faithful and discreet slave with a serious warning.
Jesus warned about an evil slave who believes that the master is taking too long to return and who starts to beat the other slaves. When the master arrives, he will punish that slave in a very severe way.—Read Matthew 24:48-51.
Was Jesus foretelling that there would be an evil slave class in the last days? No. It is true that some individuals have shown an attitude similar to that of the evil slave described by Jesus. We would call them apostates, whether they were of the anointed or of the “great crowd.” (Revelation 7:9) But these ones are not an evil slave class. Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave. His words here are actually a warning given to the faithful and discreet slave.
Notice that Jesus begins the warning by saying “if ever.” These words show that what Jesus next described would not necessarily happen. It was as if Jesus was saying: ‘If the faithful and discreet slave were ever to treat the other slaves cruelly in these ways, the master would punish him severely.’ (See also Luke 12:45.) But the faithful and discreet slave as a group has continued to stay alert and to give out spiritual food of good quality.
The anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave realize that their Master expects them to take good care of his domestics. These anointed brothers sincerely desire to care for their responsibility loyally so that when the Master finally arrives, he might say to them “well done.”
By this explanation GB class say: In today WTJWorg organization there is no evil slave class. Only some individuals outside of GB class members, will show an attitude similar to evil person slave. 
Well now, what are the Jesus words? Imagination, fantasy, parable, illustration, prophecy, good night story, moral lesson, reality in 1 century, reality for all centuries in future time, impossibly thing to ever happen, exemption only in some rare situations,  ...?   
"...logical fallback position - from a human standpoint at least."
Of course, human standpoint is only one we have always with us every day, after all :))) And beside plan a, it is also good to have b,c,d... But in that way of functioning we recognize and confess how points A) carefully study Bible, B) pray about, and C) meditate is mere human process with rarely moments of Inspiration (on single personal level) that come Above.
In GB class case that rare moments of (private level or class level) Inspiration from Above not coming on them at all, because they loudly claiming; "We are not inspired!"
To recall again on what WT magazine has wrote; as individuals, GB members are not FDS, as group who sitting together in one room they are FDS.  
Resume of such WT quotes/statements can be this:
1) as Private Person GB member is as every average JW who have no influence on Organization Moves.
2) as Collective Class GB members are doing the same thing with same result as every average JW member with one exception. And that is siting, reading, praying and meditate and making decisions where and how Organization will go .  
In both case outcome is the same -- "uninspired" decisions.    
I personally would not say how some sort of Inspiration from Above never came on me (in what ever issue). But, such personal feelings is in sphere of own interpretations/speculations what is/was happening. So, it can be true and/or false/illusive. Or some sort of mixed, unknown definition about what we going/went through. And would I made that as credo, doctrine that have to be reality for other people and their lives, about how Bible text come to fulfillment in my/their life?