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JOHN BUTLER

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  1. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    Thanks for response, but i don't recall that  i have done any changes in title. But on other hand we all are imperfect ... and technology too :)))
  2. Thanks
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    I understand, especially since the GB has tainted everything about Christ’s Truth.
    1 John 4:1 -  "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
    The anointed are compared to trees and their “fruit”, or teachings -
     “Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. 16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.  Matt 7:15-20
    It takes effort on our part, to find the good trees.  With God’s Holy Spirit, we will be able to discern “good fruit” from the “bad fruit”.  You are already on your way to doing just that.
    Pearl Doxsey has a “Personal File”.  At the bottom of that page, she describes her anointing experience. 
    pearl -  personalfile . blogspot . com
  3. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    We all have the choices of many possible religions to follow. Or we can follow our own understanding which can be very dangerous. Wisdom is best found in a multitude of counselors.
    This organization has not changed all its teachings. But if it had, I can't see how that matters so much unless they are currently lying about all the changes. Still, even if all the teachings have changed over time, this could even be a good sign that a filtering and refining work is going on.
    Ultimately, with all the choices, I would still look for a religion that attempts to preach the good news. The content of that preaching might change . . . I would expect it to. But I would still look for a successful worldwide implementation of a preaching work based on the words of Matthew 24:14.  I would also look for a religion that stays out of nationalistic conflicts both internal and external. There are very few religions that promote neutrality and are all conscientious objectors to violence and killing for nationalistic purposes. My own understanding of God and his purpose would make me look for a religion that opposes the Trinity doctrine and opposes the doctrine of Hellfire and eternal torment.
  4. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Fossils are not millions of years old   
    Ops, issue of spirit again. According to some explanations Spirit works by spirit power. Manifestations of spirit power can be material or spiritual, i guess. Today it seems how this spirit not created material things. Also this spirit, according to some explanations not making powerful works in healing people, to rise up the dead people, no miracle feeding with bread, also not making people to speak what spirit want them to speak, etc.  Also, according to GB, nowadays people can not be inspired by this spirit (but only can be guided and motivated).
    Well, i can not understand statements How this spirit helps with the rest, when he is not functioning today as spirit usually working as it is described in Bible? 
    Also,  What is the difference in wording and more important what/how looks differences in  manifestation when;
    - spirit inspired you, (spirit not inspired you)
    - spirit guided you, (spirit not guided you)
    - spirit motivated you, (spirit not motivated you)
    How JW can recognized, differentiate and explain when one of this spirit acting is in progress?  
  5. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Arauna in Fossils are not millions of years old   
    The bone structure of the dinosaurs fall in two categories.  Those of birds and those of reptiles.  It has never bothered me that dinosaurs with hollow bones like birds may have had feathers and would have been beautifully colorful.  Jehovah is a wonderful and generous creator. However, there have been hoaxes in the fossil bone record to try to prove how flight developed over millions of years - one in China comes to mind.
    The composition of the air before the flood must have been totally different for those large birds which flew,  because our atmosphere now would not be able to carry them on thermal waves. They will drop out of the air because the effort to flap wings will exhaust them quick.
    Before the flood the atmosphere had more moisture and was warmer everywhere, The water band above the earth made the planet like a comfortable tropical hothouse (not too hot) which made the poles the same temperature as the rest of the earth. After the flood the poles froze and snow may even have formed immediately during the flood.
    I was fascinated when I visited natural history museums, especially with my roots in Africa. When in England I looked at the great variety of mammal-dinosaurs and many of them looked  like the replicas of animals we have today - only much larger.  They were not much different to existing animals today.  This has stuck with me - and I have never seen scientists write about this.  Even the crocodiles were 4 times larger than today. Sometimes one will see photos of the extremely large crocodiles .... but the other animals.... they are not mentioned in science journals.
    Animals adapt to their environment (Darwins finches adapted their beaks and when the food source changed they adapted back again - which is also never mentioned by evolutionists).  Scientists call this 'makro evolution' which is a deceiving word for adaption to the environment. 
    (Micro- evolution is the kind which brought the micro changes over millions of years - so they say - to bring about life and all the different new species.  This has zero chance of happening if one studies the math).  
    The flood was an extremely  violent event which changed the entire surface of the earth and the atmosphere. The earth ripped open to bring forth the water under the earth; Teutonic plates moved and the initial surge of water into gullies and deep areas must have been more like constant tsunamis - surging into areas and rushing in on mountains and even cutting some off.  New ground areas pushed up as the  earth's plates pushed up against one another forming very deep areas in the ocean and forming new mountain ranges which were higher than ever before. Water surges caused water erosion on softer stone. Many volcanos also erupted under water etc.
    When the earth was filled with water  - then the  sedimentation would  have started. Heavier animals would sink to the bottom -   (All those which initially had not already been swept into gullies before  - they found many massive graveyards of animals in USA and many other places on earth which are miles* miles long and wide) - but again - not much explanation in the news.
    Water is heavy (try to carry just one bucket of water) so it compacted the animals with sediment. The weight pressure of the water formed  oil, coal and diamonds etc. - pressing out the oxygen.  I have been looking into the "creationists theories for the flood and it is fascinating to see how the different "rogue" scientists who believe in the  bible look at this.... and one can learn something from each one.....there is no doubt in my mind that the flood took place. 
    The sedimentation record can be seen at the great canyon and other places on earth - with the lighter materials settling everywhere as the water moved - hence the shell particles on high mountains. and even on the lower layers.  
    So after the flood - the earth was totally different.  Food was not as large (plants must have been very large before the flood to feed large animals and even the dinosaurs) and not as abundant, no longer  with large pools of water for large mammals and /or dinosaurs to move in or float on. No mist coming up from the earth.  Large animals need water - look at elephants and hippos...... they need to cool down often.  
    I have often thought that those mammal-dinosaurs which look similar to todays animals must have adapted after the flood to their new diet and new environment.  Their size definitely changed somewhat although remaining to be the same species. I remember seeing a hippo which looked almost similar to today and the rhino looked like the indian rhino.
    Kinds of animals cannot change but adaption is everywhere.  Polar bears are losing their habitat today and more and more are now breeding with grizzlies, which will bring the extinction of the polar. The forest elephant in South Africa is now extinct (last one died a while back) It was smaller and ate different food.   Diet also has an effect on the human race and on animals. The black and white rhino eat different diets and their mouths have adapted.
     I am writing this now to show that one can read up on things to strengthen faith but one may not 'teach this as fact.   One can use it as an idea of how things took place back then - but since the bible gives us much more detail about the 'purpose' of god one can say that the above info is all mere speculation.  The GB is not in the business of speculation - so they stick to the purpose of Jehovah.
    However, I will encourage others to read more and find out how the bible may be much more scientific than science itself.  Geologists officially refuse  to consider the  bible narrative and say that the very thin layers between the sedimental layers represent millions and millions of years - which is quite ludicrous when one sees the large layers of sediment before and after these thin layers.  
    About the age of things -  ah - that is another subject......
  6. Thanks
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Arauna in Fossils are not millions of years old   
    Carbon 14 breaks down very quickly. Look it up on Wikipedia.   Mr. Butler - do not be too humble my dear.... one does not need  intelligence to understand it - one just needs to take a little time to do the research.... search and you shall find.   Jehovah's spirit helps with the rest and an honest and unbiased spirit helps to find the truth.
    There are many kinds of scientists but I do not believe that evolution is a science - no scientific method to speak of and not much evidence (fossil record non-existent especially at the bottom (basis) of the evolutionary tree - also no evidence how birds developed. ... all conjecture.  There are really too many unexplained miracles (miracle: a remarkable event or development that brings  only positive consequences.)
    (The Cambrium explosion shows that all species suddenly appeared fully developed.  Here is a definition of it Cambrian explosion - I quickly looked it up:  "The Cambrian explosion or Cambrian radiation was the relatively short span event, occurring approximately 541 million years ago in the Cambrian period, during which most major animal phyla appeared, as indicated by the fossil record." (Of course these dates are totally manufactured dates.... similar to the so-called pictures of the progression of man.)
    Dating is also a subject that has not withstood the "science" test. There is a lot of data available in this to read.
    The foundation of our belief is Jehovah and Jesus Christ and the fulfillment of the first prophecy of a seed / king that would pay the ransom and then later rule to restore the original purpose of God.  Additionally, how God worked throughout the ages to fulfill this prophecy and how he gave us a genealogy and a timeline to understand the progress of his plan. 
    I did not  know that evolution versus creation was the most important subject - as you indicated in your remark.  For me the Bible is enough evidence that God exists and created everything and has a restoration plan - but evolution versus creation helps to provide the additional proof. Whether it is 7000 years or not does not change the fact that he created it all and we are now in the day of rest which is about 6000 years so far. According to Hebrews 4 there is another rest within the rest waiting - the 1000 years.
    I have seen quite a few videos where the high priest of Evolution - Mr R Dawkins said that something can come from nothing.  I also have seen the audience laugh at this - which is quite right.   I also have seen him say on two occasions that 'aliens' seeded our life...... that is the extent of the evolutionists brilliant philosophy.  His book: the god delusion, has misled thousands of people and these people believe he is so smart.  When one uses the magic word 'science" these days everyone thinks it is infallible. 
    I have some of my own opinions but I do not go and preach my own personal opinions because I believe the kingdom message is the most important and this is what we must preach.  There is no doubt in my mind that the faithful slave understands the kingdom government perfectly. Other Christian religions fail on this topic completely.
    Mr Butler, a person can make a lot of trouble for yourself if you go and preach your own message.  Jehovah will correct all discrepancies in his own time.  If you do not trust Jehovah to correct things then you cannot be a witness and serve alongside his other servants. ... and then you may lose your everlasting life.  One cannot act in an immature way and act independently and insist you are right - it is disruptive and egotistical - anointed or not.  
    I agree - the dynamic energy of Jehovah created the entire physical universe  - Isaiah 40 says that the stars came forth by his dynamic energy (projected energy).  So the physical universe did not come from nothing.  If one can put this in a human scale - I always think of Jehovah bringing forth the entire physical universe (with all its galaxies) and with its beginning of  time and  the 3 dimensions of space and all the different forces such as gravity, weak and strong force, into existence by his  dynamic energy as small as a single dust particle.  (it may have been a singularity but then the explosion would have been totally controlled to bring forth the elements in the universe)
    "The big bang theory actually proved a 'beginning' so scientists quickly moved away from this and started playing with math and string theory to try to prove alternative universes (23 of them) to increase the 'chance' of life starting somewhere out there.
    One need not be a scientist to understand the creation - there are many books out there written for a lay person and many books that also show the 'science delusion".  A very good one is The "devils" delusion by Dr Berlinsky which actually shows one the delusion people have about science.
    People always think scientists are not driven by ambition and ego and always follow the truth -  where the facts lead.  Think again.  I do think there are some sciences which are more scientific than others but do not be mislead at what goes on behind the scenes and the reputations involved.  
    To believe that one needs a science degree to understand creation is ludicrous - it is similar to the Pharisees which did not believe that Jesus or his disciples could understand the scriptures because they did not have higher education in the Mosaic law.
     
  7. Like
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    But they got it right in scripture and in giving praise to God. Unless you think we shouldn't believe what we read in the scriptures ? 
    Quote "And the early teaching was that the great crowd were also anointed. Lately there have been articles that teach that many scriptures which were only recently applied just to the anointed, can now also be applied to the great crowd who have an earthly hope."
    It makes me laugh, honestly. How can anyone believe any of it then ? Where is the firm foundation of a religion that keeps changing all it's teachings ?  And more importantly, where is the spiritual guidance ?  It proves there isn't any. 
    The Apostles could prove that they had God's support through Jesus Christ, by their works. The GB can prove nothing.
    There are lots of religions out there that are Earthwide. Catholics, Muslims, Jews and more. So it's no good saying how well the 'good news' has been spread earthwide, the bad news has been spread even further.  The GB have proved nothing other than they can organise people to spread a message. BUT they keep changing that message to suit themselves. 
    The 'light isn't getting brighter' in the JW Org, it's just changing direction and colour constantly. 
     
  8. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    I can understand and even accept how "they see themselves" in such role, position, call ....some sort of  leadership is needed for coordinate the work of many people.
    Such statement reveals hypocrisy of sort (on GB side, not Your's) . Namely, WT  literature explained how is  Strongly Unacceptable that JW members engages in any social change of this Old World, who was alienated and condemned by God. They illustrate this with picture of "sinking ship", and with; Why to try save or improve system that will soon be destroyed by god.
    GB Involving in change of Legislative and Law of some Country is more then just looking for "social change", for example; solving medical problems, charity kitchen for poor, shelters for homeless people (or animal) ...etc. GB instructions say NO, for such activity of their members.  
    WT qoutes:  When Jesus gave his preaching commission, he did not instruct his followers to preach social or political reforms, union of Church and State, or any other secular ideology. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012324#h=10  We do not lobby, https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2016288#h=36   Reformers try to get society to rethink its approach on issues. They do not just protest; they have ideas about how to improve things...                                                                                                    Yet, Christ did not initiate a campaign ... https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102004202#h=28    
    As You said GB "HAVE PUSHED to have them changed". How they Pushed them? Asking for Law Changes. Who can making Law changes? Politicians? I believe how they are involved very much in this process.    
    ...to be continue
  9. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Fossils are not millions of years old   
    Dear Arauna and other readers.
    quote: "Anyone who believes the universe came from nothing or believes that something comes from nothing ..."
    Concept of "Nothing" is somehow unclear, indistinctive. About What one thinking when talk about existence of "nothing" and how "from nothing can not come to something" ? Who promote idea that universe came from nothing? Does "science and scientist"  promote this idea? Or, people who have faith in Bible came to this question/logic  as respond to some "scientific" explanation about life origin on Earth and origin of Universe that they found as not reasonable or possible. I do not know if theory about Big Bang is still in play, but as i can see Bib Bang thesis not promote idea of "nothing". Because for such Big Explosion is need existence of "something" to explode. 
     
    quote:  "It is a totally unscientific statement and even if you say you are a scientist 1000 times, it does not make you a scientist..."
    If i am not "scientist" do I have  "credential"  to discuss about "science", or just to have and express my opinion, critical thinking, criticism, feelings about subject, etc? To be in rank of "scientist" one need to have Higher Education. JW members are not , in general, scientists. Few of them are Highly educated and GB discourage members to look for such education, even to such measure to "marking" those JW who would like to go to University.
    If you are not carpenter, you have nothing  to tell/teach about carpentry those people who are carpenters. Just my level of "unscientific" logic :)))  
     
    quote:  "IN any case there are now many papers which prove that..."
    What papers? "Scientific" magazines or some Sport magazines, or WTJWorg publications  that made quotes from some "scientific" editions, books, magazines? 
  10. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    I've had a busy day and being honest can't be bothered to look up scriptures, yes I know that is a bad attitude but it's honest  BUT :-
    Jesus said to His apostles (anointed) " You must be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (or something close to that) .
    Plus, the early teaching was that ALL of the Anointed are the Faithful and discreet slave class.  So what gives 8 basically American men the right to suddenly exalt themselves above all the others ?
    Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
    And if those 8 mainly American men have to resort to lies and deceit to maintain their authority, then that does not have God's approval for sure. 
    And why would God feed them false information ? Why would they get so much wrong ? Why would they 'run ahead' of doing God's will? 
    Do you forget the scripture of 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' ?  A spiritual Jew should be recognised by his deeds and be able to prove his position. The GB only prove themselves to be false. 
    And i also find it funny when someone 'backs up' what they are saying by saying other people / organisations are also doing it.  What difference does it make what all those false religions are doing ? Isn't your JW Org supposed to be the 'only true' religion. 
    It's seems we are back to 'offering children to Molech'. Well other religions were doing it so it must be ok  .
    Yes Spiritual Jews should exist. The Bible makes that clear. BUT, if not the whole body of Anointed then, IMO, 12 or possibly 13 brothers (for obvious reasons) and all from different nations.
    One of the points that i was told when told about the Heavenly class being from Earth, was that when in Heaven they would  remember what life was like here on Earth and have Empathy and understanding. Well likewise, if the were from different nations / countries, they would have more empathy and understanding of people from all around the Earth.  
     
  11. Like
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Fossils are not millions of years old   
    Can you explain this comment to me in more simple terms please, I'm only a poorly educated man. 
    I've always believed that God created everything. I presumed he turned energy into matter. ( I'm not scientific in any way ). 
    As for 'scientists', scientist is only a word, and to be one you need worldly wisdom not the wisdom from God, so being a 'scientist' doesn't mean much when viewing things from God's perspective does it ?  I've always thought 'scientists' would find the result they are being paid to find, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'. 
    When i first learnt the JW beliefs i was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. However the teaching seems to be now that they have no idea how long a creative day was. This was one of my first points of disappointment with the JW Org, this 'change of mind' 'Change of direction'. It brings us back to the inspired / not inspired / guess work problem. 
    I know nothing about Carbon dating, but aren't the scrolls / parchments dated somehow ? 
    Although I'm no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, i am still a Christian. I still believe that Almighty God is the Creator of all things good, and that Jesus Christ is God's son and he fulfilled the ransom price. Hence I pray to God through Christ and still read God's word. 
    Everyone knows why i left the org, but I have never said ALL of its teachings are wrong. However when the GB / Org changes its mind on things that are the foundation of its beliefs, then the complete religion becomes unstable. 
    Are you now suggesting that the old belief of each Creative day being 7,000 years long, may be true ? 
  12. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in Fossils are not millions of years old   
    This is a good point. In fact, most of the things you have said in your post coincide with things I have also believed. It should be pointed out though that scientists, at least those who deal with sociological issues are quick to point out that there has been more profit for many millennia in claiming that one has wisdom from God. Those who have been paying science pipers get pretty much the same answer from 99% of them, but those who have been paying the god's-wisdom pipers have been getting thousands of divergent answers from 99% of them. 
    This is true. There was never any Biblical evidence. It was all conjecture and wishful thinking, based on nothing at all. Therefore, there is no reason to think that the creative days were the same length, nor that any of them would have been limited to less than a billion years each. Our only reason for claiming that they were not 24 hours each is that we have decided to accept some of the evidence from scientists.
    I won't try to answer for Arauna, but I think that many Witnesses are still concerned about the "slippery slope" of accepting scientific evidence without the approval of the Governing Body through direct statements in the Watchtower publications. I've also heard it specifically admitted by GB "representatives" that this is one of the reasons that college is considered to be so dangerous. It's because the GB and the researchers and writers of our publications don't have time to rule on every single piece of evidence, as to whether it can be accepted, rejected, or partially accepted in a re-defined chronological context. The practice at many colleges is to ask the student to evaluate the importance of various pieces of evidence, and this puts Witness students in a "bind."
    For example, I know of JWs who even in High School, have decided to accept evolution in the context of their classes and reject it in the context of the congregation. One of them brought up a topic to me that I decided to look into when an opportunity arose. I knew that scientists have long theorized that birds evolved from dinosaurs based only on skeletal evidence comparing birds and dinosaurs. Then, more recently, fossils were discovered with patterns of fossilized "feathers" preserved with the skeleton in the exact places where such feathers would have been expected. This confused me, and I was sure that they were being interpreted as feathers, but were actually "ferns" or leaves or a superimposed skeleton of a separate bird. But then more of them showed up. I was at a museum on the campus of Yale university in New Haven, CT, and saw some for myself, and asked a specialist there if they could possibly be anything else. He showed me that this was not even controversial any more. There were now several of these fossils.
    I would not know how to treat such evidence if I were in a class that discussed it. My father still thinks they are ferns or misinterpretations. My mother still thinks that Satan has manipulated some of the evidence from fossils. Of course, that theory is common among "Young Earth" fundamentalists, too, but it causes many more questions. If Satan can make small adjustments in the evidence, why not make bigger adjustments? Was he given a limit as to the number of adjustments he could make, and a limited number of places to bury them?
  13. Upvote
  14. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Jack Ryan in Today's 'examining the scriptures daily' : "what if someone close to you has to be disfellowshipped? Would you take decisive action by ceasing to associate with that person?"   
    But if they are an accused child molester that was not disfellowshipped because of the two witness rule, you can hang out and talk with them as much as you want. Or if they committed a gross sin, but tricked the elders into believing they were repentant, and did not get disfellowshipped, you can hang out with them to.
  15. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    Fantastic research, well done Srecko. I'm just shocked by it all. If the complete body / every one of the anointed was the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and if God and Jesus did trust them, then why are those 8 men in America, the GB, pretending that only they are the Faithful slave ? 
    Those 8 men in America, the GB, have stolen the authority from the other members of the Anointed. The complete number of 144,000 are supposed to be the Bride of Christ. 
    And as you say Srecko, the GB cannot decide if they are supposed to be inspired or not. But if definitely looks like they are not inspired and not trusted by God or Jesus, just looking at the lies they tell and mistakes they make. 
    The question is though where do we go now ? Does God have a group of people here on this Earth whom i should be amongst ? 
  16. Confused
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Foreigner in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    Fantastic research, well done Srecko. I'm just shocked by it all. If the complete body / every one of the anointed was the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and if God and Jesus did trust them, then why are those 8 men in America, the GB, pretending that only they are the Faithful slave ? 
    Those 8 men in America, the GB, have stolen the authority from the other members of the Anointed. The complete number of 144,000 are supposed to be the Bride of Christ. 
    And as you say Srecko, the GB cannot decide if they are supposed to be inspired or not. But if definitely looks like they are not inspired and not trusted by God or Jesus, just looking at the lies they tell and mistakes they make. 
    The question is though where do we go now ? Does God have a group of people here on this Earth whom i should be amongst ? 
  17. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    Yes, i noticed too that thing Witness. And i'm glad that some people have "that something" to see more and above that what WT offer to members. 
    Witness, is it possible to see who or where people sharing articles?
    Greetings, wish you all best!
  18. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    I noticed 46 "shares" of this comment, Srecko.  Seems to me that people are recognizing GB's hypocrisy enough to pass it on.
  19. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level   
    GB famous phrases are: "we are not inspired but we are guided, motivated"... and... with self invented/claims: "JHVH trusts us, Jesus trust us".....they ask YOU to trust THEM.  And JW members, in general,  not see trap and snare by what GB try to enslave human minds.
     
    2. (a) Who is “the faithful and discreet slave,” or “the faithful steward”? (b) How has the slave established a fine record of “following the Lamb”?
    2 What can be said about the anointed Christians in modern times? In his prophecy about “the sign of [his] presence and of the conclusion of the system of things,” Jesus referred to the composite body of his spirit-anointed followers on earth as “the faithful and discreet slave,” or “the faithful steward.” (Matt. 24:3, 45; Luke 12:42) As a group, the slave class has established an excellent record of “following the Lamb no matter where he goes.” (Read Revelation 14:4, 5.) Its members remain virgins in a spiritual sense by not defiling themselves with the beliefs and practices of “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion. (Rev. 17:5) No doctrinal falsehood is “found in their mouths,” and they remain “without blemish” from Satan’s world. (John 15:19) In the future, the remaining anointed ones on earth “will follow” the Lamb right into heaven.—John 13:36.
    3. Why is it important for us to trust the slave class?
    3 Jesus has appointed the faithful and discreet slave “over his domestics,” that is, the individual members of the slave class, “to give them their food at the proper time.” He has also appointed the slave “over all his belongings.” (Matt. 24:45-47) These “belongings” include the growing “great crowd” of “other sheep.” (Rev. 7:9; John 10:16) Should not individual members of the anointed and the “other sheep” trust the slave appointed over them? There are many reasons why the slave class deserves our trust. Two outstanding reasons are: (1) Jehovah trusts the slave class. (2) Jesus also trusts the slave. Let us examine the evidence that both Jehovah God and Jesus Christ have complete confidence in the faithful and discreet slave.
    5. What shows that God’s spirit is empowering the slave class?
    5 Jehovah also blesses the slave class with his holy spirit. While Jehovah’s spirit is invisible, what it produces in those upon whom it operates is not. Think of what the faithful and discreet slave has been able to accomplish in giving a worldwide witness about Jehovah God, his Son, and the Kingdom. Jehovah’s worshippers are actively proclaiming the Kingdom message in over 230 lands and island groups. Does that not give undeniable evidence that God’s spirit is empowering the slave? (Read Acts 1:8.) In providing timely spiritual food for Jehovah’s people the world over, the slave class must make vital decisions. In making them and putting them into effect, the slave exhibits love, mildness, and other aspects of the spirit’s fruitage.—Gal. 5:22, 23.
    source; https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009123#h=7
    Now we have some work (read Critical Thinking, not criticism :))) ) to do about claims in paragraphs. 
    First, if you, as JW and student, regularly reading this sort of spiritual foods, you already noticed that many important doctrinal changes are occurred since 2009 and this Study Material in your congregation.  
    For example:
    1) "Jesus referred to the composite body of his spirit-anointed followers on earth as “the faithful and discreet slave,” or “the faithful steward.” NOT "TRUTH" ANY MORE
    2) "He has also appointed the slave “over all his belongings.” NOT "TRUTH" ANY MORE
    When Author of WT article described FDS by said: "No doctrinal falsehood is “found in their mouths,” then he made false statement despite, must to have knowledge, about previous changes on doctrines and interpretations. But most of all, it is of crucial importance to readers of such articles to recognize and see what falsehood and manipulation coming from magazine's Writing Department (The original text is prepared in English. The Governing Body oversees the activity of the Writing Department at our world headquarters. This department coordinates the assignments of the writers who serve at headquarters and at certain branch offices. Having a diversified writing staff allows us to address multicultural subjects that give our publications an international appeal. (source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012164 ) 
    How can be said, without any shame, that there is no "doctrinal falsehood" in FDS aka GB mouths, when they changes teachings on a regular basis?  
     
    3) "Jehovah also blesses the slave class with his holy spirit". QUESTIONABLE IDEA
    4) "While Jehovah’s spirit is invisible, what it produces in those upon whom it operates is not." QUESTIONABLE IDEA
    5) "Does that not give undeniable evidence that God’s spirit is empowering the slave?" QUESTIONABLE IDEA
    What makes points 3,4, and 5 as questionable idea? Few times GB and some of those before them, FDS composite, made clear statement how they are NOT INSPIRED (not always negate this possibility, but recently they did it in clear and sound words). About what they are not inspired? They explained:
    1. GB are not inspired
    2. WT publications are not inspired.
    So, .... in one moment they CLAIM how they have Blesses, Produces, Empowering with -God's Spirit- in sharing spiritual food, doctrines, teachings, instructions, global work, but ...  in another moment they DENIED how they are Inspired by this same -God's Spirit-? 
     
    6)  Two outstanding reasons are: (1) Jehovah trusts the slave class. (2) Jesus also trusts the slave.
    Really  ? :)))) Self-praise and self-deceiving.... with clear intention to deceive you. THINK about! Who have REASON  (reasoning and sound mind) TO PUBLICLY CLAIM  how JHVH and Jesus TRUST ME/US/THEM ??!! 
    DO You ever say in comment on meetings, from platform in public talk, in preaching service to people THAT God and Jesus TRUST YOU/ME, so you have to trust all words I told you. 
    Well please, who speaking "falsehood" to whom?    :))))
  20. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Jack Ryan in Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline   
    This sums up the JWs quite nicely...

  21. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Jack Ryan in Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline   
    Why don't JW's understand that this is clear and obvious child abuse:?

  22. Like
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline   
    Lets have plain talk not riddles. JW congregants shun those that leave the JW Org because those still in the Org are FRIGHTEND of the response by the police, sorry, Elders. The Eders act like policemen and they also lord it over the congregations. That is fact. 
    As none of the 130 ish congregants from my ex congregation talk to me i can't ask them. But I would ask them to show me 3 scriptures that give them reason not to talk to me. 
    I also dispute your term " avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions ... "  But it does show how you are brainwashed into thinking that the JW Org own spirituality and own a person's love for God and Jesus Christ. Please remember that communication to God through prayer, is via Jesus Christ, not via your Governing Body or your organisation. And asking for the guidance of Holy Spirit to help when studying God's written word, has nothing to do with JW Org either. 
    The Elders will call someone an apostate so as to stop other congregants talking to that one. That is well known knowledge. Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, BUT what the Elders are implying is that the person has rejected God and Jesus Christ, which may not be true. 
    As for your very first sentence "The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children", well the Witness organisation says lots of things, many of them are untrue. I will not go to the obvious example. 
    As for your bit about splitting hairs, simple answer is GB imply something, Elders enforce it. So maybe not a written rule as maybe GB are frightened to put it in writing for legal reasons.... But Elders use it to frighten congregants, by threatening congregants with being disfellowshipped themselves if they should disobey their masters the Elders.
    What triggers the course of congregants is fear, fear of being reported by other congregants, to the Elders. An example here is one of our daughters that got disfellowshipped. She was reported to the Elders by one of our other daughters. The daughter that reported her didn't even contant her mother or me, she just went straight to the Elders.  Some JW's are sooooo brainwashed that they do not know love, mercy or reason. They just think they can score points for reporting people. 
    So give me three scriptures to prove why people should not talk to me them Tom. I'm not pretending to be part of the JW Org, and i left because of disgusting things taking place in the JW org.  Jesus said 'Love your enemies'  and i think the scriptures say i should be treated as 'tax collector'. Jesus ate meals with sinners and tax collectors. Jesus healed sinners and tax collectors. 
    And lastly Jesus and his disciples were apostate to the Jewish religion. BUT all the Jews still spoke to Jesus and his disciples, otherwise how did the message of the Kingdom get spread around. If all the Jews had refused to accept Jesus and his disciples then they would not have received God's word and got baptised. The disciples would not have found work as tent makers and would not have been fed and offered accommodation.  But your bosses, those 8 men in charge, think they know best, and it's people like you that are soooo blind which gives those 8, mainly american men, their power. 
  23. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JJJ-AUSTRALIA in JW Lawyer on Disfellowshipping and Shunning   
    Well, there were 2 inaccurate points that lawyer made, they have to seat in the second room or at the back of the hall and not allow to enter the hall before prayer and they have to leave the hall before the closinprayer er, also the only thing i know is that if the person lives at home they can still have some sort of interaction at home but if the disfellowshiped person lives not at home there will be not relationship at all till he is reinstated.
  24. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Jack Ryan in Romy Maple and Sister Star Accuse Jehovah's Witnesses of Cover Up   
    Two different women came forward in 2018 with stories of repeated sexual abuse during their childhood by adult members of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    One woman, Romy Maple, said she was repeatedly drugged and sexually abused by the same man starting when she was 4 years old. She said other members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses ignored her efforts to alert them to the abuse.
    Years later, Maple appeared prominently in the A&E documentary series, “Cults and Extreme Belief,” which brought her story to national attention. Maple has since launched a nonprofit, 707SAFE — which stands for Sexual Assault Fighters Elite — offering “coaching, transitional and transformational support” to fellow survivors of child sexual abuse, according to Maple’s GoFundMe page.
    Another woman, who gave her name as Sister Star, said she was drugged, filmed and sexually abused at a Eureka hotel by a family friend and fellow member of Jehovah’s Witnesses. She said her grandfather and other men did the same to her months before, and further said her stepfather sexually abused her throughout her childhood years.
    Sister Star came forward with her story of sexual abuse in August. (Jose Quezada — The Times-Standard file)   As in Maple’s case, Sister Star said elders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses took no action to help her.
    Jehovah’s Witnesses World Headquarters offered the Times-Standard the following comment earlier this year:
    “Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse and view it as a crime. (Romans 12:9)” the document states. “We recognize that the authorities are responsible for addressing such crimes. (Romans 13:1-4) The elders do not shield any perpetrator of child abuse from the authorities.”
    No criminal action has been taken in either Maple or Sister Star’s cases due to existing statute-of-limitations laws. In 2016, Gov. Jerry Brown signed into law a bill dismissing the statute of limitations for crimes of rape, sexual assault and other sexual offenses committed in 2017 and onward.
    https://www.times-standard.com/2018/12/30/no-2-women-say-they-were-sexually-abused-by-jehovahs-witnesses-members/
  25. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to TrueTomHarley in Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline   
    “The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children. But they have produced a video of specific circumstances in which a parent ignores a phone call from one of them. What to make of this? Detractors will say that they are lying through their teeth with the first statement. I think not. I think they should be taken at their word—parents will reach their own decisions on the degree of contact they choose to maintain, since they can best assess extenuating circumstances. It becomes their decision—whether they find some or none at all. Specifically, what the Witness publications do is point out that there is no reason per se that normal counsel to avoid contact with those disfellowshipped is negated simply because there are family connections. That is not the same as “telling” families to break contact. It may seem like splitting hairs, but the difference is important.
    “That statement finds further support in the many Witnesses who have departed and subsequently report that, though they were never disfellowshipped, they still find themselves estranged from the family mix. Effectively, they are "shunned" without any announcement at all, evidence that a "cult" is not telling parents what to do, but it is their appreciation for Bible counsel that triggers that course. The specific mechanics of avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions may be arguable, but the general principle is not. When no verbal direction is given, Witnesses defer to the general principle, so it becomes plain that it was the general principle all along, rather than the commands of eight tyrannical men at headquarters. “What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?” says Paul, referring to two polar-opposite worlds and those who would choose between them.”
     
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