JOHN BUTLER

We as Jehovah's Witnesses have the lamentable custom of having personal opinions, and teaching them as Edicts from God ... which does convince those not aware and educated about the very real difference between a deeply held personal opinion, and an Edict from God.
There IS a difference.
It is intellectually dishonest to have a deeply held personal conviction, and not clearly label it as exactly that, and no more.
Emotionally, I have a deeply felt belief in the "Rainbow Bridge"
Intellectually, I would never teach that, because it is ONLY a deeply felt complete fantasy.
There IS a difference.
I hope Jehovah God, and the people whose lives we ruin because of our adamant cultural fantasies, will forgive us, for screwing up their lives, and condemning them to a lifetime of isolation,  of loneliness, and of unnecessary fear and paranoia.

"Is the holiday based on an unscriptural teaching?" -https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-celebrate-holidays/
This question from their web is interesting. Because all of us who are familiar with WT history knows very well many of WT "unscriptural" teachings.
Also, all WT teachings together, scriptural and unscriptural, living and influencing in parallel mode the whole life of JW members.     

They say if it's not a religious festival everyone must make up his mind according to their own conscience. Then they list a scripture that criticises every form of special day whether it celebrates a country, a person, a flag, the moon, whatever. Basically don't celebrate anything. Conscience! They're not allowed a conscience, just follow the GBs rules.

Best not to judge one against another.  I have no favourite singers at all, only sounds that i like. 
I like the sounds of people's voices and/or groups/bands. But i have no interest in the person/people.
To me it's a bit like a bus driver or shopkeeper. Musicians do a job like anyone else. If you like the sound, if it makes you dance or makes you feel happy then it's that sound, either the voice or the music, not the person... Unless you are a screaming teenager of course, but that is just some sort of crazy hero worship. 

The human brain shares some characteristics of human muscle, although mostly made of fat.
I saw a sign in a Space Training Area ... "Only exercise the muscles you want to keep"
Read two books a week, and you will probably keep you mind whole and functional your whole life.
Use it, or lose it.
A good test is see if you can chew bubble gum, yodel, and operate a yo-yo at the same time.

Another new topic on the same subject already debated a hundred times?
What does it matter, the way he died? Can we move on?
Because there are only Jehovah's Witnesses to make a fuss about this.
 

..... too soon?
 
 
 
 

Even back in Jesus day there was controversy and dissension about was it a cross, a stake, an "X", a tree,  a hewn plank of gopher wood, or  just a 10 foot length of a section of one of the cedars of Lebanon, with or without cross arm.
When they were going to do executions people would come into town from the farm areas to watch .... especially someone as famous as Jesus had become,  and they would rent a hotel room (barn, shelter, or sleep on the town square, hoping for some hospitality to be shown at a private home, as was the custom back then.).
There is recorded in Josephus about a disciple who came into an Inn in Jerusalem, the night before Jesus was killed, the same night in another part of the city that Jesus was being arrested, placed two very large black iron nails on the night clerk's counter, and said "Can you put me up for the night?"
 
 

As i said before the GB of the JW Org do create confusion in people's hearts and minds. The Elders then add to that confusion. 
Before i left the Org one of our daughters became 'no longer one of JW's'. I had no idea why. So if I hadn't talked to her I would not have found out. However I made it clear that i would never stop talking to her and I would always be there if she needed me. 
Each JW is an individual and can act as they want. My brother has chosen to stay in seme-contact with me. However the over 100 JW's in my ex congregation do not talk to me. Even a brother that said he would visit me after 6 months, never has, proving himself a liar.
My feelings are now very mixed. I think God, who's name may be Yahweh or Jehovah, has given Jesus the authority to judge each of us, whether in or out of that Org. I also think there are good and bad people in or out of that Org. 
We allow ourselves to cause division within our families. It doesn't have to happen.  

@Space Merchant Quote : "Plus this should be discussion with those of your circle rather than here" 
I don't have a circle. Jehovah's Witnesses are 'encouraged' not to socialize with 'people in the world'.  That means only mix with other JW's. Hence now that i am no longer a JW i have been completely shunned by all of them. That amounts to well over 100 people locally...  100 people that will not speak to me, not even to say hello. 
So I have only my wife and son for company. My son is at work most days and my wife spends time with her mum and our daughters and grandchildren.  Hence i had spent so much time working at the 'Big House', most days alone. 
That is why i brought the problem here. Even before i put it up on here I had gone to my bedroom and prayed to God and cried about it. It hurts me, the problem itself, the people involved, and not knowing what to do. 
 

Dear Mr Butler:
It appears you have more than enough "suggestions" on how to handle the above problem.   Normally I wouldn't respond to a  "cheeky" ex-JW (your words not mine).   To give you some background, I am an American but I was married to an Englishman for 15yrs so I get the culture differences.  Also I don't always agree with JTR (but I do get in tongue-in-cheek delivery) BUT you would do well to take his point of view.   The main problem I see is your "trusted" friend who burdened you with this information about this boy.  This (in my opinion) would be gossip since you had no reason to know this information.   You have no idea how the Elders handled this situation, it could have been handled based on no outside parties being aware of the problem, thus privately and that's why it wasn't announced to the congregation.   The Elders could have talked to the police, the father could have talked to the police or social services and been given advice.   YOU don't know and that's the point - You have only been given the " secret" by your "trustworthy" friend.   This friend of yours has the burden, not you.  I would tell him/her he/she needs to go to the parent, Elders, police, social services or you will using him/her as your informant and then you decide the best course of whom to contact with your 2nd or 3rd hand information (well I ended up giving advice I wasn't going to).
It's an unfortunate mess when gossip, it spreads like fire, people get burned whether its true or not.   We all want to protect our children, that's not the point I'm making (I'm a mother of 4 and grandmother of 5).    This boy could be a threat to the congregation or some intervention took place that will put him on the right path.  Who knows, outside of the parties involved.  It's regrettable that you are separated from the congregation so going to a trusted Elder is not an option, that would be the best way to just let them know you are aware of a situation via gossip ( I suppose you could write an anonymous letter).    Going to the police or social services may be the way to go BUT then again, it could open a can-of-worms that would be more harmful than good in the end.   Professionals are required to report these things, because they are just that, professionals.   I would chastise your friend for spreading this information and forbid him/her from gossiping to you again.  I'm sure you are aware of the seven things Jehovah hates, tread carefully.
Sincerely,
Your Ex-sister
 

Maybe this is not completely relevant to the discussion, but has anyone noticed in today's WT study (WT January2017 ) the illustration of Jesus on the stake, with the nails going through his wrists rather than through the palm of his hands? I haven't noticed this before, perhaps we have always drawn it this way and I just didn't pay enough attention. I remember reading somewhere some technicalities about the actual physical possibilities or impossibilities, and one argument was that the victim could not be nailed to a stake through the hands as the weight of the body would rip through the palms (sorry, this is so morbid) and the only way it could be through the palms is if the downward weight was distributed with the arms tied to a cross beam and the then the palms nailed (I guess for added anguish). In any case, when Thomas needed confirmation of Jesus' resurrection he said at John 20:25 .....“Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.” Is this a case of a broad usage for "hand"? And could it mean anything from the fingers to the wrists, including the wrists? In some languages the translation of hand can be a little confusing because it can also mean the whole arm in another language. Only the context can give a clue as to what is meant, whether it is a hand, and arm, the forearm or the whole arm including the hand...This also got me to thinking about the translation of stauros, could that also encompass  not just a vertical beam but some horizontal beams?

@JOHN BUTLER
This is funny, I had completely forgotten I had started this topic way back in 2017. Br. Rando alerted me to it. It seems like we didn't get very far in my topic. We got a lot further in yours! (Wait a minute, I just noticed it's Kurt's topic. Well you resurrected it then)
 
 

John, I understand why you have a dilema, but it still doesn't change anything about reporting all the information you have, even if second, third, or whatever hand, and even if you have heard the father of the victim doesn't want it reported. This is exactly the kind of situation that lands the JW's in trouble for not reporting, because they think about all those things that you are thinking about, and probably more, since they have even more details because they know of the situation first hand. So there may be very valid reasons why they have not gone to the police. But you don't know those reasons, just as you don't know the reasons for them not going to the police in all the other cases worldwide. It can be a lot more complicated that anyone on the outside realizes. But now you have had a some personal insight into how complicated one case can get without even having all the information!
But still, it doesn't change why you shouldn't go to the police, even if it means could cause a lot of trouble for not only the perpetrators family, but also the victim and the victims family. So that's why I said hopefully the police will be prudent enough to conduct their investigation in a sensitive way. They may not even do anything, but you will have done your moral obligation from your vantage point: in other words because you are worried about the child.

Sigh .... the chemical industry also makes laundry bleach, and paint, and gasoline.
 
...and a million other things.
 
You are supposed to be smart enough to not drink laundry bleach, and paint, and gasoline
 
.... and a million other things.
 
 
 

@Space Merchant Quote : "Plus this should be discussion with those of your circle rather than here" 
I don't have a circle. Jehovah's Witnesses are 'encouraged' not to socialize with 'people in the world'.  That means only mix with other JW's. Hence now that i am no longer a JW i have been completely shunned by all of them. That amounts to well over 100 people locally...  100 people that will not speak to me, not even to say hello. 
So I have only my wife and son for company. My son is at work most days and my wife spends time with her mum and our daughters and grandchildren.  Hence i had spent so much time working at the 'Big House', most days alone. 
That is why i brought the problem here. Even before i put it up on here I had gone to my bedroom and prayed to God and cried about it. It hurts me, the problem itself, the people involved, and not knowing what to do. 
 

Thank you again for all your help, on this matter and on the other matter. 

Thank you again for all your help, on this matter and on the other matter. 

Interesting to look at the term used by Lucian, "anastauroo."
*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5C “Torture Stake” ***
It was to such a stake, or pale, that the person to be punished was fastened, just as the popular Greek hero Prometheus was represented as tied to rocks. Whereas the Greek word that the dramatist Aeschylus used to describe this simply means to tie or to fasten, the Greek author Lucian (Prometheus, I) used a·na·stau·roʹo as a synonym for that word. In the Christian Greek Scriptures a·na·stau·roʹo occurs but once, in Heb 6:6. I'm not saying that @BillyTheKid46 was right (I don't think he is on this point) but note what he or one of his sources apparently claimed about that word "ana-stauroo":
If @BillyTheKid46 is right about this, it was not the original way in which anastauro was used, but I can see how it might have developed into quick way to distinguish a "crossing" cross with a simple, upright stake or pole. But this would never be claimed by the Watchtower because that would cause 'fits' with Hebrews 6:6 which uses the word and would therefore mean the following: 
(Hebrews 6:6) but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they [ANASTAUROO - crucify on a dual-beamed, crossing cross] the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame. Wikipedia mentions that Seneca The Younger (4BC - AD65) had observed the following during his life:
The Greek and Latin words corresponding to "crucifixion" applied to many different forms of painful execution, including being impaled on a stake, or affixed to a tree, upright pole (a crux simplex), or (most famous now) to a combination of an upright (in Latin, stipes) and a crossbeam (in Latin, patibulum). Seneca the Younger wrote: "I see crosses there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet".[14] Just another thought. Some large bones all come together in a smaller area at the wrist and there is therefore very little space at the wrist to pound a nail without the probability of breaking bones.

There was a posting on this topic, which seemed all wrong for this same reason:
 

That is why I said try to get the police it keep it confidential, because some of those people might get the mistaken impression you are doing this out of a grudge.
In any case, if you explain exactly from what source you know this information, then the polic should be wise enough to handle it as possible "hearsay" and tread carefully when conducting their investigation so as not to falsely accuse someone. That is if they are competent.

I found this for you @JOHN BUTLER
Watchtower 1987/ 8/15, page: 29
"We do know that his hands or arms were not simply bound, for Thomas later said: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails.” (John 20:25) That could have meant a nail through each hand, or the plural “nails” might have reference to nail prints in ‘his hands and his feet.’ (See Luke 24:39.) We cannot know precisely where the nails pierced him, though it obviously was in the area of his hands. The Scriptural account simply does not provide exact details, nor does it need to. And if scholars who have directly examined the bones found near Jerusalem in 1968 cannot even be sure how that corpse was positioned, it certainly does not prove how Jesus was positioned.
We thus recognize that depictions of Jesus’ death in our publications, such as you see on page 24, are merely reasonable artistic renderings of the scene, not statements of anatomic absolutes. Such depictions need not reflect the changing and conflicting opinions of scholars, and the drawings definitely avoid religious symbols that stem from ancient paganism.
 

@JOHN BUTLER Will look into this. Also I advise not to put too much trust in Sky News, as of their recent memorable situation from some months ago regarding Israel. More over, the mention of Kurds is an issue, granted of whom they handed over to ISIS a while back.

I moved this to the JW Club since you mentioned it in relation to JW's and tagged it.

I would tell the Police everything you know, and leave it in their hands, i.e. let them decide where they want to go with that information. Remember, they are supposed know the right thing to do.
Personally, I would want to remain anonymous, not with the police, but with everyone else. But I am not sure if that's possible.

@Jack Ryan The Justice System is corrupt and a double standard. There is dirt on the corners that is in use to hurt the eyes of those of whom the law is enforced against and the like.
Then you have the shoot first, ask questions later type of folk, and the whole blaming every police officer when not all of them are corrupt.