JOHN BUTLER

Dear old Tom. It is you that cannot distinguish between what is important and what is not. 
The fact that people have probably died because of lies told by your GB and the puppet Elders. 
And the fact that your GB act like Hitler giving orders which result in disfellowshipping people, which is in fact, in the eyes of the GB, killing people spiritually, which will eventually kill them physically at Armageddon. 

What rubbish you write. Complying has nothing to do with cheerleading or campaigning against. 
Complying means obeying rules laid down by others. In this case it's the GB and the puppet Elders laying down the rules for all JW's to obey.  It's quite simple OBEY or GET DISFELLOWSHIPPED.  There are no other options in the JW Org.  

Your comment is perfect, and so true.
When i have said these things I have been greatly criticized. You are almost saying as i have said. The Elders are only puppets for the GB.  The Elders do not want to think for themselves. They only want to keep their positions of power in the Organisation. 
And the GB and it's puppet Elders are only interested in making the JW Organisation 'look good' from the outside.
How right Jesus was when he explained to clean the inside of the bowl or dish so that the outside would also be clean. 
As a note, my wife is not baptised because she doesn't want to be controlled by the Elders or the GB.  She realised a long time ago the same things you are saying. 

The picture in the book might be right. Based on the usual rules of evidence and logic, it is probably wrong (in my opinion, of course). I disagree with you that the Greek word with the basic meaning of hand cannot also include the wrist. I disagree that if the meaning of the term for "hand" can include the wrist that the translators must use the term "wrist" just because they think it's more likely to refer to the wrist portion of the hand. This is because it is not obvious that the term could ONLY have meant the wrist and not the rest of the hand. Sometimes in English we have these ambiguities between terms, and we may not understand that these ambiguities sometimes occur with words in other languages where they would not occur in English.
For example, we have the terms for fingers and thumbs. You have 5 fingers on a hand, so if we learned that someone in history had chopped off a finger, should we think of the possibility that it was the thumb? If a non-English speaker believes there was a 90% chance it was the thumb, should he translate it thumb, when finger is still accurate 100% of the time? The wrist could be included with the Greek "hand" in the same way that the thumb could be included with the English "fingers."
What is WRONG, in my opinion, is to make a statement that "Jesus died on an upright stake that did not have a crossbeam." Again, this might be true. But it is false and wrong to claim that it is true. It is false to even imply that there is no depiction of Jesus on a two-beamed cross until the 4th or 5th century, when there is evidence to the contrary.

 

This is the epitome of “apostate lie” and you know it!
No person named Tom would ever do such a thing! A Bill or a Bob or a Sam, maybe, but never a Tom!

Funny you should mention that, Sreko Sostar ... the WTB&TS is currently building a data base, called "Publishers ID",  where everything about every Jehovah's Witness on Earth is planned to be assembled ... they are working on it now, or possibly completed the database structure.

JW.org _Publisher ID_ - leaked video 1-of-4.mp4 As time goes on, of course, many Publishers will try to avoid the .BORG ... er .. .ORG knowing everything about them, and will try evasive tactics, such as assuming new names, so it may become necessary to tattoo their Publisher's I.D. Numbers on the inside of their left forearms.
Resistance will be futile.
 

😱 At last....I think I am starting to understand you. That is simply outrageous.

TTH:
These are general principles that ALWAYS must be used to test interactions between humans.  If you don't ... like being on a muddy steep slope to the edge of a cliff, we may loose our footing and find ourselves having a wonderful ride down that slippery slope ... to the hard rocks at the bottom of the cliff.
It's one thing to have that wild ride by accident, or misadventure, and be broken up or killed by your own devices .... it is quite another to killed or broken up because someone speaking as a declared Watchman over your soul gives you bad advice, and it is because of that bad advice you slide, and fall to your peril.
The price of Liberty and Freedom depends on each individual maintaining eternal vigilance ... and ALWAYS test the credibility of any advice we are given by ANYBODY.
When I was a young man, I was floating down the James River and came downstream to Bosher's Dam, a few miles upstream of Richmond Virginia.  There were others already on the dam, which had about four inches of water overflowing the top, and beneath the water you could see the rust spots where steel rebar had once been across the top.  The others were jumping off the dam, and some were playing below at the base, among the water and large rocks, and some were jumping off to the water below.  I asked someone what was a safe space to jump off, and he said to count seven rebar spots from the side of the dam, and it was safe. 
I took him at his word, and counted seven rust spots, and jumped off to a pool below, surfaced, and continued my float trip.  Today I would have watched, to see who ELSE jumped at that spot before I did.
I have missed death and being mangled perhaps a hundred times in my life.... by pure, dumb accident.  Not a very smart philosophy. I "lucked out" ...so far.
That same summer I went to a pool party at the Presiding Overseers house, (I forget what we used to call them back then ...) and walked into the back yard to see all my friends in the pool, talking and laughing, with their arms hooked behind them on the edge of the pool. I asked my best friend, also named Tom, how deep the water was and he said "Nine Feet".
I proceeded to the diving board, made a high bounce, and went in head first.  At nine feet deep, my custom was to do an immediate flip under water so my feet hit the pool bottom first, and I would spring to the surface like a breaching submarine.  Unfortunately the pool was a uniform three feet deep, and I landed HARD flat on my back, which knocked out my air, and I surfaced far less dramatically.
Had it NOT have been my custom to flip underwater, I would have landed on my skull, and been maimed for life, or killed.  This was about 1965.  Because I was not hurt, everybody laughed, and I laughed too.
A few years later (sometimes I am quite slow...) I was thinking about that, and realized how CLOSE I came to being severely paralyzed or killed. I have an outrageous sense of humor, but that  ceased being funny.
I added the following line to my working philosophy "Never trust anyone at face value... but ESPECIALLY your best friends, and those that apparently have your best interests at heart." 
It took me about eight years or so to firm up that philosophy, which was consolidated when that same best friend ran off with my first wife ...they were married, and she died of Cystic Fibrosis while married to him.
The Congregations were "fine" with their marriage, which I found out about later ... until I wrote detailed letters, certified mail, return receipt requested ( the "green card") to every Congregation in the Richmond area, and to the then World HQ in Brooklyn. 
At some Congregations in the Richmond area, when they announced his disfellowshipping, because he had been a Bethelite, a Pioneer, and was "Brother Watchtower". and I was a known Barbarian, and because our names sound very similar phonetically ......
....... they announced from the platforms that it was I who had been disfellowshipped.
It was then I permanently lost all the friends I had grown up with in the "Truth", but I was working in California, and did not find out until I returned home, to Richmond, Virginia.
Sometimes ... you (meaning me) just have to consistently be a horse's ass to keep from being run over by happy, well-intentioned, flower bedecked rainbow ponies ... with sharp steel hooves.
 

Multiply Kosonen’s experience hundreds of times over, and you, SM, will see why the GB’s apparent contrite, humble words that they are not inspired,and can ( I say “prone” to) err in doctrine…..IS A BIG DEAL. 
You have spent much time covering inspired prophets vs. uninspired prophets.  As I said, among His people, God doesn’t make a distinction.  He calls His prophets, “prophets”.  If they “proclaim” a message in His name and it doesn’t come true, He refers to them as “false prophets”.   Deut 18:20-22; Matt 7:15-20
Straight and simple. 
Are you neglecting the weightier matters of the law of Christ: justice and mercy and faith, as the GB and elder body have?
“These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.”
The organization’s leadership are blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 
Look at the broader picture, SM, and the damage done to those who follow blind, empty teachings, that leaves one in the DARK.   Matt 23:23,24; 1 John 1:5
 
 
 
 
 
 

Before I was baptized I thought that you can always question every JW doctrine and that the Watchtower will always have scripturaly based answers for their doctrines. So I felt safe to be baptized. But I did not know that after you are baptized you have no more right to question the truthfulness of any doctine. And if you don't understand their explanation you have to comply anyway. 
If I had known that the WT-organization works like that, I doubt I had been baptized. 
To the contrary I heard the circuit overseer explain how honest and sincere the WT organization is. He claimed in a speech that if a person finds a fault in WT doctine and can show it from the Bible, then absolutely the WT organization will change the doctrine. 
It was with this mind I was baptized. But it became evident that that is not how the WT org works. When I had found scriptural evidence against some WT doctrines I wanted to show my elders. They came to my place, but they refused to look at my findings. They refused to look at the scriptures I wanted to show them. They were not going to examine the scriptures. I was amazed, what was going on? Now I understand that elders act according to WT procedures. They don't think about what is right or true. The only thing that matters to them is to obey the GB. The Bible and the truth comes always on the second place. 
That is the moment when the truth has ceased to be the truth. 
Actually the elders even openly at the meerings said that the unity is more important than the truth. They justify that with saying that Jehovah will anyway later correct everything.
But where will the elders and GB be when Jehovah corrects what it wrong? They might as well find themselves in trouble. 
As Bible-history shows, those who opposed truth tellers in the past got in trouble.

True. And neither am I aware of any successful challenge to the view depicted in the earliest known writings, descriptions and depictions of the stauros.
The earliest known view of Jesus' execution refers to the Tau shape. That's from the first or second century "Letter of Barnabas." All other subsequent references to the shape of Jesus' execution stauros also describe a T shape and/or a T shape with a lower crossbar.
All the Biblical references (which do not describe the shape) make perfect sense if it is depicting a T shape or a T shape with a lowered crossbeam. I am referring not only to the use of term "nails in his hands" but also the fact that the 'King of the Jews' sign was depicted as above his head, not above (or below) his hands. Also the fact that the description of the execution procession closely matches the Roman punitive use of the patibulum which invariably refers to the arms being stretched out to each side, perpendicular to the body.
So far, no one has successfully challenged this earliest known view. Also, it appears there are not even any hints of anyone ever attempting to challenge that view from any of the earliest centuries C.E. up until very recently. And we would have to say that the Watchtower has also been unable to successfully challenge that view due to apparently depending on statements which can be shown to be false, in order to reach that view. A successful challenge cannot be dependent on false statements.

No John, lol. The Greek word is HAND, so to translate it correctly, one must say hand in English also. But yes, you are right, the picture is a contradiction, unless of course you include the wrist when you say hand
Good night!

In Croatian, word "ruka" (as equivalent (i think) to English word arm), arm is upper limb in man with a shoulder joint connected to the body. It consists of the upper arm, forearm and hand. The upper arm and the forearm together form the elbow joint. And the forearm with the fist forms hand wrist.
When in Croatian we said "ruka" , that can mean all limb (arm) and  also one particular part,  hand (palm, fingers, and thumb=fist). When you shake in greetings you practically moves all limb (arm) but one part making this main meaning, your hand (again "ruka" in Croatian).
Take your hands in the air. (Digni ruke u zrak.)
The friends stretched out their hands/arms (they were giving hands to each other) and then they were shaking hands. (Prijatelji su ispružili ruke jedan drugome i onda su se rukovali.

Maybe the JW Org / GB / Watchtower have always been a hoax, and never been the truth. 

Ah yes but they had PROOF of who their leaders should be, whereas the GB do not give any proof that anyone should follow them or obey them. They are in fact false leaders. Verse 7 here says CONTEMPLATE HOW THEIR CONDUCT TURNS OUT.  Done that already. And I can see very bad conduct, which shows false leaders.. 
. 7  Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.
As for verse 17.  I don't know what Bible you are using, thought you were a JW so here is the JW Org version..  Please notice in BOTH verses it DOES NOT say LEADERS it says THOSE TAKING THE LEAD. 
17  Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.
So the GB have no proof that they have any authority and they deliberately do wrong. Yet you still want to follow them. OK so be it. 

@Anna Quote : I am sorry, there was no one announced at our hall for such a long time so I don't know how exactly the announcement is made anymore. I can assure you though it will be known that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses because you do not agree with the organization. I remember someone was announced years ago, and everyone knew it was because he had differing views, and not because he had committed immorality or something like that. (End quote.)
I was wise enough to tell a few brothers what i was about to do, so at least they would know the truth. I gave only one of them the reason, but told others i was 'resigning'. However here is the stupidity of things shunning causes :- 
A man, a JW that i had helped many times as he was over 80 years old, though he is quite physically active.  Whilst i was still a brother i sold him a motorised bicycle. We had an agreement that if he decide he didn't really want it, that i would buy it back from him. 
A long time had passed since this business agreement. Then suddenly my wife has a text message on her mobile phone (cell phone to you guys i think). This being after i left the Org. The message is from this man, asking her to talk to me about me buying back this motorised bicycle. 
Two points here : -
1. The man should never have been given my wife's personal phone number, so whoever gave him the number was doing wrong.
2. It was a business agreement between the man and myself, not involving my wife. And my wife knew nothing about it and was not interested in getting involved in it. 
My wife gave me the information after getting over the shock of receiving the message, and I could see she was genuinely upset by him having her number. 
I emailed him quite politely telling him how my wife and i felt about it. I also agreed that if he contact me personally I would buy the item back from him.
Now, the questions must be, Why was he too frightened to contact me directly first time ? And, why has he not replied to my email ?
I know the answers of course.   He is frightened of being told off by the Elders of the congregation, for contacting me. 
I know this man well enough to know he is not frightened of me personally. And i know that we once had a really good friendship. It proves my point, that people are frightened of the Elders. 
There is a second case proving the same thing, but i will make it brief.
One of the brothers i told that I was resigning, visited me the Wednesday evening before the Thursday announcement. He promised me he would call back in 6 months time to see how i was doing. He has not been near my house since that Wednesday evening. Why ? Well once again it just proves my point, but in his case he has also proved himself a liar. He has broken his word. All because of fear of men, the Elders.
 
 

Brother Jackson said a lot of things, including basically admitting that the GB are not the only spokesman God is using. 
Governing Body Unwittingly Condemned
Mr. Stewart then asked pointedly if the Governing Body views itself as Jehovah’s spokespeople on earth.
Brother Jackson does not vacillate this time, but states, “That, I think, would seem to be quite presumptuous, to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.”
With those words, Brother Jackson is unwittingly labeling the Governing Body as presumptuous. Here is the official position of the Governing Body with regards to its role before God. [Italics added]
“Jehovah gives us sound counsel through his Word and through his organization, using the publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45; 2 Timothy 3:16) How foolish to reject good advice and insist on our own way! We “must be swift about hearing” when Jehovah, “the One teaching men knowledge,” counsels us through his channel of communication.” (w03 3/15 p. 27 ‘The Lips of Truth Will Endure Forever’)
“That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end.” (w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 2 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”)
Theocratic appointments come from Jehovah through his Son and God’s visible earthly channel, “the faithful and discreet slave” and its Governing Body.” (w01 1/15 p. 16 par. 19 Overseers and Ministerial Servants Theocratically Appointed)
However that 'faithful slave' and the GB are one and the same now, as the rest of the Anointed are pushed to one side.
So there you have it. As I've said before the scripture at Luke 14 v 11 
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

Well at least this topic, and in fact this forum gives many people good reasons to use their brains, do research, and get involved in deep discussions. Mental exercise is as good as physical exercise, and spiritual exercise beats all  .. Have a great day everyone  

The PDF linked earlier, "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Cross" Leolaia, 1990, speaks of semantic restriction by which some Watchtower doctrines have developed by focusing on only the simplest etymological meaning of a word like parousia or stauros or xylon, etc. In the case of "hand" there was found good reason to go with semantic expansion to fit our traditional beliefs on the subject.
Of course, this is not the only way that we (and, frankly, all Christian-associated religions  and others, too) solve problems of textual understanding. We could have used the method of resolving apparent contradictions by merely making up a third story that allows for a strict sense of the text to be true. For example, we have two versions of the death of Judas in the gospel accounts:
(Matthew 27:5-8) . . .So he threw the silver pieces into the temple and departed. Then he went off and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said: “It is not lawful to put them into the sacred treasury, because they are the price of blood.” 7 After consulting together, they used the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore, that field has been called Field of Blood to this very day. (Acts 1:18, 19) 18 (This very man, [Judas] therefore, purchased a field with the wages for unrighteousness, and falling headfirst, his body burst open and all his insides spilled out. 19 This became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language A·kelʹda·ma, that is, “Field of Blood.”)
To accommodate a strict-sense reading of both versions, we merely make up a third story that makes both versions true. We say that Judas bought the field in the sense that he provided the money even though others bought it. We also say that Judas hung himself but since there is no mention of falling in the first, and no mention of hanging in the second, we say that while hanging himself the branch broke and he died from the fall when his body burst open.*
So the WTS could have solved the supposed problem created by a strict-sense use of the word "hands" by merely adding a third story, not in the text, that Jesus may also have been bound to the stake in addition to being nailed. I read of a Roman slave carrying the patibulum through the public streets on their way to execution and having that patibulum tied to the arms of the slave. The patibulum of course, could become the crossbeam of an upright stake.
The fact that no third story like this, however plausible, has been suggested tells me that "semantic expansion" has been the solution, and this is the easiest idea to support from the Greek and from Scriptural usage of "hand."
*I think it's "funny" that when Papias (60 AD - 130 AD?) went to Palestine hoping to find first-hand corroboration of some of these early accounts he discovered completely different versions. For example, Judas was supposed to have blown up so big and fat, like a balloon, that he burst asunder and all his guts (fecal matter) were spread around. (His weight could have been part of a "third story" solution that explained a breaking branch!) The versions Papias learned told of Judas in this same condition, I think, being run over by a chariot (so that his fecal matter spread around on the ground). Mentioning the spread of someone's fecal matter as a most disgusting death was not limited to pagans. It is very explicit in the account of how Ehud kills "fat king, Eglon." And it's implicit in the idea that dogs ate up the body of Jezebel in the plot of Jezreel.
I saw this at https://www.gotquestions.org/nails-hands-wrists.html
While historical scholars are uncertain of the nail placement in Jesus’ crucifixion, or anyone else’s for that matter, the Bible simply says that Jesus had wounds in His hands (John 20:25-27). The Greek word translated “hands” is cheir, which means literally “hands.” There is no Greek word for “wrists” in the New Testament, even though some versions translate Acts 12:7 to say that the chains fell off Peter’s wrists. But the Greek word in this verse is also cheir. It's possible that the nails may have been angled to enter through the hand and exit through the wrist, but it's just as likely that the nails were driven straight through the hand somewhere near the base of the thumb. Experiments have shown that both ways do work and either way could have been used in the crucifixion of Jesus. I have also read that the "experiments" were some "scientist" nailing up cadavers to test the theory. Evidently just the hands alone actually could support the weight of any corpse he tried. Weird science.

I can not speak for the English language as it is not my mother tongue, but in both French and Italian, no one would use the word hand to talk about the wrists. The hand is one thing, the wrist is another.

I wish people could make their mind up!!!

Where did this idea come from ?

QUIZZTIME!!
And where are these from??? EDIT: Well done @JWInsider who got the one above pretty quickly!
EDIT: And now he's got the other one (below), the old clever-cloggs!

I must add, being "spirit-inspired" is the result of an anointing.  Holy Spirit is poured into one's heart.  Rom 5:5  It is alive and active and "inspires" one to understand Christ's truths. 2 John 2:2; 1 John 2:20,27  Holy Spirit "inspires" others to recognize truth when they hear it from one Jesus' sends. John 13:20   For the GB to claim they are not inspired also shows they no longer have Holy Spirit within them, if anointed. 2 Tim 3:5  They are ignorant of its power, but are well versed in "inspiration" coming from a demonic spirit.  This is how lies are generated and lies are laced through the teachings of the organization.   Their is no other word for false/failed doctrine, but "lies".   And lies have no origin in Christ, who is only light.  1 John 1:6;
Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
who put darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
    and clever in their own sight.  Isa 5:20-21
"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."  John 15:4
 

I never said they were inspired!  I am pointing out that they claim they are NOT inspired!  YET, they expect obedience to every word that they “prophesy”.
Can’t you see the hypocrisy?   The GB are “Israel”.  God’s word is clear about prophets among His people, even those who “act like it”.  And, if someone is “acting” like a prophet of God, but gives wrong interpretations, they are false prophets inspired by demonic utterances.
For you, JWs!:
Reasoning Book:
 "False Prophets 
Individuals and organizations (1) proclaiming messages that they attribute to a superhuman source but that (2) do not originate with the true God and (3) are not in harmony with his revealed will." Reasoning from the Scriptures p.132
Please continue:
“At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929 there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there are those on earth today who fully believe in God and Christ Jesus and in His Kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth.... It stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and when the princes do return, and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth Sarim. (Salvation, 1939, p. 311)
What an embarrassment for the organization. 
“The prophecies of Almighty God, the fulfillment of which now clearly appears from the physical facts, show that the end of religion has come and with its end the complete downfall of Satan's entire organization." (Religion, J. F. Rutherford, p. 336, 1940)”
Please, SM, stop being so narrow-minded, and protecting a leadership that comes as wolves in sheep’s clothing.  False prophets demand obedience which the GB does.  False prophets have lead many down the road of darkness and death. 
JWfacts.com has a very good breakdown of Watchtower leaders "acting" as prophets.  Read especially, the 4/1/1972 Watchtower, “A Prophet Was Among Them”  , highlighted in red.
"The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests (non anointed elder body who have replaced God's anointed priesthood) RULE BY THEIR OWN POWER; And my people love to have it so.  But what will you do in the end?"  Jer 5:31
 
 
 

Really ? They thought 1914, and 1975, so surely they think he is late now  
 

OK. show me exactly where I have said the Watchtower is an inspired prophet ?  I don't actually use the W/t as an example. I usually say  the GB and JW Org.
And who isn't wrong ?  If you mean S. M. then one of his faults is that he lumps us all together, Srecko, me and others.  If Srecko says something that SM doesn't agree with then SM on many occasions includes me in his reply. 
Please be 100% sure and have proof when you accuse me of saying / writing something. 
As for my opinions about the GB and the Organisation as a whole then i make true statements. If you call that judging ok so be it.