sami

Our purpose is to present the truth. Whether they believe or accept is their responsibility, that is according to the disposition of their heart/lev.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

I have said from the start that the meaning of the Greek word παρατίθημι is “the keeping of”, @sami brief quote from Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon confirms this although I’m accused of being mistaken (?). The issue is, some claimed that the use of the word παρατίθημι in Luke 23:46 means “yielded up” in the sense of to cease existing.

 

 

Now, to quote things out of context in order to portray a false idea by the chopped up quotes and then claim,  “My usage of The Catholic encyclopedia was for the clarity seen in the preface of their staunch statement in support of monotheism”, clearly shows an ignorance to what was intentionally left out in order to convey that false idea, and also dismisses the alleged reason for doing so. <><

 

 

THAYER
2. the spirit, i. e. the vital principle by which the body is animated ((Aristotle, Polybius, Plutarch, others; see below)): Luke 8:55; Luke 23:46; John 19:30; Acts 7:59; Revelation 13:15 (here R. V. breath); ἀφιέναι τό πνεῦμα, to breathe out the spirit, to expire, Matthew 27:50

Dictionary:
παρατίθημι
Greek transliteration: paratithēmi
Simplified transliteration: paratithemi
Principal Parts: παραθήσω, παρέθηκα, -, -, παρετέθην
Strong's number: 3908
GK Number: 4192

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 19
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: cv-6a
Gloss: (act.) to set before; (mid.) to entrust, commit

Definition:
to place by the side of, or near; to set before, Mk. 6:41; 8:6, 7; Lk. 9:16; met. to set or lay before, propound, Mt. 13:24, 31; to inculcate, Acts 17:3; to deposit, commit to the charge of, entrust, Lk. 12:48; 23:46; to commend, Acts 14:23
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Genesis 2:7 "Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person."
Adam was not - nor had he ever been a spirit creature, he was sculpted from earthly things (soil/clay). Human and animal creatures contain the same substances(minerals) as the earth. What made the creation of man different than the work of Michelangelo is the Breath of Life blown into Adam by his sculptor, Jehovah God. Then, as Genesis 2:7 apprises us, man became animate, a living breathing creature.

Man was not the only living creature to have been gifted with Jehovah's breath as we are made aware and informed by Scripture. Genesis 7:22 " Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.

AND

Genesis 7:15 "They kept going to Noah inside the ark, two by two, of every sort of flesh that has the breath of life."

Ecclesiastes 3:19 "for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.(OR the same source of life/breath) So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile."

Isaiah 42:5 "This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk on it:"

That breath was given once and that was at the creation in Eden. From then on the animation of humans and animals is by the first gasp of oxygen taken in at birth. If that creature does not respond by the inhalation of oxygen it is never animated, it is not living.

What is the spirit mentioned in Isaiah 42:5? It is the LIFE OF THE PERSON........ ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life ..........

That which is exhaled at the end of life represents who and what you are. You are either remembered for a future life (a recreation) on a paradise earth or you are not. Just as stated at John 5: 28, 29 "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs (3419 mnēmeíon (a neuter noun derived from 3451 /mousikós, "to remember, keep in memory")   will hear his voice  and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

That final breath is a remembrance of the person you are (the good, the bad and the ugly) whatever name you have made for yourself, that is what Jehovah remembers.

On 7/25/2018 at 8:03 PM, Cos said:

Our friend sami, whose other comments were shown to be, well, wrong, goes into a long winded accusation to try to maintain the false idea. Once again sami quotes passages where the idea that the Holy Spirit is a power must be read into them,

 

 

 

 

 

What is more disturbing is the quoting out of context of some works, here is an example, the quote from the New Catholic Encyclopedia;

 

 

 

 

 

“The OT [Old Testament] clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person .   .   .   God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly . . . The majority of NT [New Testament] texts reveal God’s spirit as some thing , not some one ; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God”

 

 

 

 

 

Below is what the Encyclopedia actually says and more importantly, what was left out;

 

 

 

 

 

“…’Holy Spirit,’ therefore, means ‘Divine Spirit’. This article treats the spirit of God as it is presented in the OT and Judaism, and in the NT. Consideration is given in each of these sections to the spirit of God as a power and as a Person...

 

 

God's Spirit Not Presented as a Person. The OT clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God's spirit is simply God's power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly (Is 48.16; 63.11; 32.15). Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Is 63.10; Wis 1.3-7). ... As a result of the teaching of Christ, the definite personality of the Third Person of the Trinity is clear. However, in most cases, the phrase "spirit of God" reflects the OT notion of "the power of God." ...

 

 

The Spirit of God as a Person. Although the NT concepts of the spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT, in the NT there is a gradual revelation that the Spirit of God's a Person…

 

 

In the Synoptic Gospels…The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God… The only passage in the Synoptic Gospels that clearly speaks of the person of the Holy Spirit is the Trinitarian formula in Mt 28.19. ... The statement in Acts 15.28, "the Holy Spirit and we have decided," alone seems to imply full personality. ... However, the Trinitarian formulas employed by St. Paul (e.g., 2 Cor 13.13), indicate a real personality. ... So clearly does St. John see in the Spirit a person who takes Christ's place in the Church, that he uses a masculine pronoun (Greek) in reference to the Spirit even though [spirit] is neuter in gender ( 16.8, 13-16). Consequently, it is evident that St. John thought of the Holy Spirit as a Person, who is distinct from the Father and the Son, and who, with the glorified Son and the Father, is present and active in the faithful (14.16; 15.26; 16.7).” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1965, Spirit of God, Vol 13, p574-576)

 

 

 

 

 

As you can see, the (copy and paste) quote by sami deliberately and deceptively is selective on what the Catholic encyclopedia says, and ignores the fact that it clearly does states that the Bible outright teaches the personality of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.

 

 

 

 

 

So when the whole article is read in context, yes the Holy Spirit is associated with God's power, but is often attributed clear personality.

 

 

 

 

 

In another post our friend focuses on many quotes from a wide variety of sources. But before I address these our friend’s gives a brief short history in the introduction prior to all the quotes which is false. As can be shown, the early Christians before the fourth century referred to Jesus as God, here are a few of the many examples.

 

 

 

 

 

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–117): “Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.” (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 19.3)

 

 

 

 

 

Justin Martyr (100–165): And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128)

 

 

 

 

 

Tertullian (155-220) "Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, ONE essence, not one Person” (Against Praxeas, chapter 25).

 

 

 

 

 

None of the above Christians were expelled from the Christian Church like Noetus who taught heresy. And even if you don’t fully agree with what these Christians taught it would be nonsense to claim that the Deity of Christ was not taught until the fourth century.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, to keep this brief, which some don’t do, let me say that the majority of quotes which sami provides are taken out of context and chopped up to portray a false idea just like the above from the  Catholic encyclopedia.

 

 

 

 

 

The others fall into the category of self-quotes, that is, quoting from those who are Arian/Unitarian in the first place. <><

 

 

Trinity

Addressing your ire and contempt of my usage of Catholic encyclopedias and other reference materials to prove my point. There is a question which arises.... when were the principles and ideology of  Bible doctrine set as the system by which all claimants of Christianity abide and adhere?

The Hebrew and Greek Scriptures are not now nor have they ever been antithetical. The TRUTH be told, the two are singular and unwavering in ideology and teaching as to the nature of Yehwah/Jehovah. The singularity of Jehovah is seen in the prayer of the Psalmist at Ps.90:2 "Before the mountains were born Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From eternity to eternity, you are God."

Yes, an existence, a life force  that has always been.

And Psalm 93:  2 "Your throne was firmly established long ago; From eternity you have existed."

1 Timothy 1:17 "Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen".

(From perpetuity to perpetuity)

Jehovah God is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” He is and always has been immortal. The first person to whom Jehovah granted the gift of immortality was Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul explains: “Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.” Romans 6:9      Indeed, contrasting the resurrected Jesus with earthly rulers, Paul describes him as the only one among them having immortality. Jesus will now remain “alive forever.” His life is “indestructible.”    Hebrews 7:15-17, 23-25; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16.

For the fact that Jesus could die indicates he is not a co-equal part of Jehovah. It also indicates that he also had a beginning.  Colosians 1:15 bears this out ".... He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;...."

Revelation 3:14 "......These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."

Proverbs 8:22 "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago."

My usage of The Catholic encyclopedia was for the clarity seen in the preface of their staunch statement in support of monotheism. What follows in the latter portion is speculation i.e. "NTseems to support" and other such terms of ambiguity.

Doctrine was set when the very first person put stylus to hide or chissel to stone. When Jehovah inspired the first writer to pen the very first historical record, all succeeding penman wrote as they were born along by the power and leadings of the spirit. Jehovah's means of salvation was the sacrificial blood of his very own Son. (Genesis 3:15)  

The prophetic record follows this theme the who, what, where, when, why and how. The transmittal of God (Jehovah's) purpose to the human race was through a handpicked people - the Hebrews. Every Bible book penned is through a Jew, every experience memorialized is by and of Jews. The Bible record is of Jews.

What did the Jews believe? The Jews believed in monotheism "Yehwahʹ ʼElo·hehʹnu Yehwahʹ ʼe·chadhʹ " The shema was recited every Shabbat.  The apostle John (a Jew) pointed out that "SALVATION BEGINS WITH THE JEWS" John 4:22

Salvation begins with the Jews - Or “salvation originates with the Jews, how?” Jesus’ statement implies that the Jewish people had been entrusted with God’s Word, pure worship, and the truth that could lead to salvation. Romans 3:1, 2 They were also chosen as the people from whom the Messiah would come, fulfilling God’s promise regarding the “offspring” of Abraham. Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16 When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman, it was only through the Jews that a person could learn the truth about God and what he required as well as details about the Messiah. Israel was still God’s channel, and any who wished to serve Jehovah had to do so in association with his chosen nation.

Jesus was a Jew, his apostles were Jews, his followers were Jews. And what was Jewish doctrine? "Yehwah Elohehnu Yehwah echadh V'ahavta" The Shema which was given by Jehovah and memorialized by Jews (in the Hebrew scriptures). Jesus Christ repeated instructions from Shema at Mark 12:29,30 "Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.

Do you see the continuity of doctrine from the Hebrew Scriptures through the Greek Scriptures? Nothing had changed from the Hebrew Scriptures, which bound the nation together, as Christ clearly stated in the Hebrew prayer, (SHEMA) which had been recited by generations of Jews before and after Christ. It is the bedrock of doctrine and it is unchangeable. "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah"

@Cos 

On 7/28/2018 at 11:30 PM, Cos said:

No bible version translates the Greek word παρατίθημι as “yielded up” no matter how some try to twist translations; they just like to build an argument around what is not there. But of course those that read their ideas into Scripture will continue to do so regardless. The meaning of the word παρατίθημι is, “the keeping of”.

 

 

 

 

 

Now the excuse that the passages that prove the Holy Spirit a Person, that these are just personification fails on many levels, in fact there are so many problems with this ‘blanket” excuse which ignores the context and fails to exegete the passages.

 

 

 

 

 

Really, how do they know that these passages are personification?

 

 

 

 

 

Because they have already assumed the Holy Spirit is a power. This is called reasoning in a circle. They need to show that the Holy Spirit is a power before they can even begin talking about supposed personifications. But this is exactly what they cannot do! All they can do is read into certain passages that fake idea.

 

 

 

 

 

Realistically there are many instances that cannot be explained away as a “personification”. For example, why is it that what we do supposedly generates a “personified” characteristic in a thing?

 

 

 

 

 

“But they were the ones who rebelled, and they grieved his Holy Spirit.” (Isa. 63:10)

 

 

 

 

 

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God” (Eph. 4:30).

 

 

 

 

 

Why is it, because of what we do, that that generates a “personified” characteristic in a thing? <><

 

 

On 7/25/2018 at 7:50 PM, Cos said:

Why would Jesus “yield up”, what was about to cease existing, into the hands of His father (Luke 23:46)? What is more revealing is the fact that the Greek word παρατίθημι is never translated “yield up” or “yielded up” nor does the word mean such a thing the word means “the keeping of”.

 

 

 

 

 

Here once again is blatant reading into the Scriptures what is not there to try to make something say what it doesn’t. The sheer nonsense can be seen by asking why would Jesus παρατίθημι, what was to cease existing, into the hands of His Father.

 

 

 

 

 

Steven PRAYED “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”. But according to some Jesus was asked to “receive” what ceased existing!

 

 

 

 

 

This type of irrational nonsense is typical of those that constantly read into Scripture their false view such as when they read into Zechariah 4:6, Micah 3:8 2, Tim. 1:7, Luke 4:14, Acts 1:8, Acts 10:38 and think that these say that the Holy Spirit is not a Person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Cos  Why would Jesus “yield up”, what was about to cease existing, into the hands of His father (Luke 23:46)? What is more revealing is the fact that the Greek word παρατίθημι is never translated “yield up” or “yielded up” nor does the word mean such a thing the word means “the keeping of”.

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sami said: I'm afraid your mistaken - according to Perseus & Tufts ...Liddell Lexicon the meaning is...

On 7/20/2018 at 7:18 PM, Witness said:

Dear sami,

Some scriptures have links.  For those that don’t, I do hope you look into the Bible and read.

What is your definition of “false doctrine”?  Being labeled an apostate by the Watchtower is the rejection of their own teachings unique to the organization.  If I believe in the Father and Christ, and are guided by God’s Word, I am not an apostate according to God’s Word.

We’ll start by seeing what the Watchtower says about its prophetic abilities:

"Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" (Watchtower April 1, 1972, p. 197)

What does the records show?  Let’s look at just a few examples over a hundred year span. 

"In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

The "Gentile Times" prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of 1915 A.D." Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is At Hand 1915 ed. pp.99, 101, 242

"Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216

(We are now in the 21^st century.)

“"Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935." Watchtower 1995 Feb 15 p.19

Logically?  Apparently not.

"Thus it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends." Watchtower 2007 May 1 p.31

Your Awake magazines before 11/8/1995, use to have this statement on the inner cover:

 "Why Awake is Published" “Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." 

That generation who saw the events of 1914 is no longer alive!  The magazine now states:

"Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things."

Do you hear Christ’s voice in any of these teachings?  Did your leaders hear Christ’s voice when they fabricated such teachings?   The failed doctrines of “this generation” are so twisted and so plentiful I chose not to list them.  But, I encourage you to check out Watchtower’s lengthy history of changed teachings regarding it.  It is JWs who follow a “Judas goat”/false prophets, putting their lives in jeopardy.  Jer 5:31  Jesus said we would recognize both false prophets and those he sends by the “fruit”/teachings they produce which is to last – not be discarded as you would toss aside a rotten apple.  John 15:4-8,16;13:20; Matt 24:4,5

Have you ever read the following scriptures?

Moses speaking:

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,  according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’

¹⁷ “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. ¹⁸ I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. ¹⁹ And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. ²⁰ But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ ²¹ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— ²² when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”  Deut 18:15-22

Simply, the “prophets” of the organization since its inception have and continue to speak presumptuously on behalf of God, or in the name of another “god” (Jehovah’s organization)…and fail time and time again in their “predictions”.  There really is no wiggle room to get around what God predicts as their outcome. 

Jesus did not forego speaking up for Truth and exposing lies.  Those of Christ’s Body – the anointed ones – must also speak up for Truth, especially among each other.  2 Cor 10:4,5

 

The entire world is pressing its nose against Watchtower's windows.  No longer, can Watchtower hide its secrets.  Disfellowshipping has caused thousands to lose connection with their families; it has driven people to take their life; yet, I believe JWs seem to take all of this with tongue in cheek.  Victims of child abuse by other members of the organization, have been disfellowshipped; while perpetrators remain in the congregation.  I am sorry that you are so indoctrinated, you cannot see the lack of love among your leaders, who have twisted this form of counsel - into a catalyst of hate and destruction. This should be enacted by the anointed priesthood under their loving Head, Christ.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; John 21:16; Heb 8:10; Rom 13:10; Heb 8:5,6  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+16%3A24-27%3B+Isa+57%3A13%3B++Rev+13%3A11%2C12%2C15%3B+11%3A3%2C7&version=NKJV

Your use of John 10:27 reminded me of a time in the JW “preaching work” with a woman who approached a man working in his yard. When he rejected her message, she walked away calling out loudly, “Christ’s sheep know his voice”.  This puzzled me, since our message was based on “Jehovah”, the organization, a paradise only obtainable through the organization, and the kingdom that supposedly began in 1914. I wondered if I had personally heard Christ’s voice. To believe that you have, while in the organization is pure folly. The governing body’s voices are much louder and much more demanding than Christ’s.  1 Cor 7:23; Rom 6:16; Matt 11:28-30  It wasn’t until leaving the Wt. did I “hear” his voice, unclouded by men’s doctrine loaded with falsehood.  I learned it was okay to respond to his voice in prayer, something that your Pharisee-like leaders tell you not to do.  John 6:68,69    Ask yourself, who’s voice are you really hearing?  Jesus did say those who hear his voice, follow him. John 10:27     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+7%3A23%3B+Rom+6%3A16%3B+Matt+11%3A28-30%3B+John+6%3A68%2C69+&version=NKJV

 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. ² The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. ³ The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. ⁴ When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. ⁵ But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”  John 10:1-5

An earthly corporation with many earthly holdings, is not the gate/door to salvation. Matt 6:24; Acts 4:12   Clearly, if you read the scriptures, Jesus is the gate, and the shepherd of his sheep. John 10:9  I am relieved and blessed I now recognize Christ’s voice.  It is no longer a stranger to me.  I am so grateful I ‘ran away’ from the thieves, your leaders, who preach “another Jesus” deliberately, to mislead the flock.    2 Cor 11:3,4; Ps 52:1-7  

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+6%3A24%3B+Acts+4%3A12%3B+John+10%3A9%3B+2+Cor+11%3A3%2C4%3B+Ps+52%3A1-7&version=NKJV

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide (Watchtower organization) is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. ¹⁴ But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”  Matt 7:13,14

Regarding 2 Thess 2:7.  I really hope you can put aside your defense for the organization and try to engage yourself in these scriptures.

2 Thess 2:7 – (AMP)  “For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way. “

2 Thess 2:6 – “And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time.”

This lawlessness is not accomplished by one person, but a collective reign -  a power that has now been revealed.  The “day of the Lord” is prophesied to have come in 1914 by your literature.

 Look what 2 Thess 2: 1,2 says about this:

“Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, ² not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] *from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.” 

*”from us” – from other anointed ones, but who have “gone out” from the Body.  1 John 2:19

In other words, you should reject Watchtower’s “revelation” about 1914!  Why?

“Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed], ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself [so proudly and so insolently] above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he [actually enters and] takes his seat in the temple of God, publicly proclaiming that he himself is God.”  2 Thess 2:3,4

There is only one temple of God, found in the hearts of the anointed ones.  Can you envision this?  John 2:19-22; Acts 4:11;  Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20-22  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2%3A19-22%3B+Acts+4%3A11%3B++Matt+16%3A18%3B+Eph+2%3A20-22&version=NKJV

To te anointed ones of his time, Paul said:

Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? ¹⁷ If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. 1 Cor 3:16,17

How would a collective “man of lawlessness” reign, or “take his seat” over the anointed priesthood of God?  It has developed gradually, and it is within the organization where the anointed are found.  The elder body are, in God’s sight, “foreigners” standing in the Temple of God. 2 Chron 23:6,7; Num 18:7; Ezek 44:6-9 They have been given authority by the administrating anointed ones (GB) to “rule” God’s personal “heritage” – His chosen people.  Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Matt 24:48-51  This is the lawlessness at work among those who “profess” to be Christians.  2 Chron 13:9  

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Chron+23%3A6%2C7%3B+Num+18%3A7%3B+Ezek+44%3A6-9%3BIsa+43%3A10%3B+1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%2C10%3B+Matt+24%3A48-51%3B+2+Chron+13%3A9++&version=NKJV

 

Do you know where we can find further description of this present “lawlessness”? It is in the Beast of Revelation 13:1,18, and the 4^th Beast of Daniel’s image. (Dan 7:7)

This Beast, (Rev 13:1) along with Revelation’s false prophet (Rev 13:11) unitedly work together to claim power over the “holy ones.”  Rev 13:6,7; Dan 12:7  YOU reside with the anointed ones.  YOU accept the lawless rule over them, and over yourself.   When Jesus prophesied that a “disgusting thing” would be found in the temple, it was a two-fold prophesy.  It came upon the city of Jerusalem leading to its destruction by a Gentile Roman army.  It has appeared again upon the “New Jerusalem”/Temple of God – the anointed Body of Christ. Matt 24:15,16; Rev 11:1-3  Those who are not anointed as spiritual “Israel”, are spiritual “Gentiles”.  Rom 2:28,29; Rev 7:4  The elder body is by far, not anointed.

Christ’s voice is heard by those who reject the Beasts and their great deception to come against the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed”.  Rev 12:17  I do hope you ask God if you are on the side of pure, unadulterated by falsehoods, TRUTH, since you are seeing the effects of the battle of truth against lies.  Those anointed “kings” who side with Christ in truth, against anointed “kings” who side with Satan and his delusion.  2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 20:7-9

2 Thess 2:9,10  (AMP)“The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], ¹⁰ and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. ¹¹ Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, ¹² in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Do you believe the lie that Christ approves of failed doctrines?  That God approves an organization that must be cherished and revered as one’s path to salvation over His Son?  Do you believe the anointed ones, God’s true priesthood/teachers must remain apart from one another in the organization as your leaders teach you? Do you believe the organization is “spirit-directed” by God, when its leaders have admitted they personally, are not?   All of these things are what the Watchtower teaches. 

 One thing I've noticed over the years is that apostate disfellowshipped ones have a common and maniacal lack of acceptance and responsibility for their actions. The fault for their being evicted from their congregation and the organization is the fault of everyone else.

It reminds me of 1918 when apostates tried takIsaiing over the organization but were thwarted in those efforts. Satan did the same in Eden telling Eve she would not die and God lied to them. This person has serious mental health issues - deep seated paranoia.

Be happy you are gone. We have stepped up the pace of disciple making which is 8.5 million to this point and literature printed in over 900 languages in 239 lands and islands. There are couples worldwide who have answered the call of need greaters. Isaiah 57:17 "No weapon formed against you will have any success, And you will condemn any tongue that rises up against you in the judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness is from me,” declares Jehovah.

Accept the fact that you did this to yourself and now you can scream your apostate ideology from the mountain tops but your fall has already been great outside Jehovah's organization and the weeping and gnashing of your teeth has begun as we dwell in security.

 

 

 

 

 

On 7/21/2018 at 1:09 AM, Cos said:

Here is another claim, “most translations incorrectly translate ekeinos as ‘He.’”

 

 

 

 

 

The NWT translation at John 2:21 has; “But he (Greek ekeinos) was talking about the temple of his body”.

 

 

 

 

 

If “spirit” [pneuma] means “an impersonal force” as claimed by sami, WHY then are actual persons also deemed pneuma in Scripture?

 

 

 

 

 

The only blatant departure from the rules is reading a false premise in to bible text and then constructing straw man arguments to try and maintain that false premise.<><

 

 

Historical Background of the Trinity

The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, consubstantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshipped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. The idea of "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology that was grafted into Christianity. Worshipping "God the Son" is idolatry, and idolatry is Biblically condemned; it breaks the first great commandment of God of not having any gods before him (Exodus 20:3). Then three centuries after Christ the corrupt emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God." If you follow the logic here then first you have Jesus Christ as God, then you have man totally depraved, and then you have Jesus Christ as man and God. If Jesus Christ is both man and God does this mean that God is also totally depraved? Well maybe the doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead is deprived of any historical foundation tying it into the Christianity of the Bible and the Christianity of the first three centuries. However the historical information ties the trinity into various pagan origins.

And yet most Christian churches continue to teach and believe the doctrine that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead, and that Jesus Christ is God, and that the trinity is "the cornerstone of Christianity".

The Church of the First Three Centuries 1865 Alvan Lamson

" . . . The modern doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. . . so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine an absolute blank. They testify, so far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the Son. There is nowhere among these remains a coequal trinity. . . but no un-divided three, -- coequal, infinite, self-existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin."

During the first three centuries, Christians did not believe that Jesus Christ was coequal, and coeternal with God, or that he was God the Son, they believed that Jesus Christ was subordinate to God, and that he had a beginning, that he was born. Those that believed otherwise were the exception.

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting

"Those Trinitarians who believe that the concept of a Triune God was such an established fact that it was not considered important enough to mention at the time the New Testament was written should be challenged by the remarks of another writer, Harold Brown:"

"It is a simple fact and an undeniable historical fact that several major doctrines that now seem central to the Christian Faith – such as the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the nature of Christ – were not present in a full and self-defined generally accepted form until the fourth and fifth centuries. If they are essential today – as all of the orthodox creeds and confessions assert – it must be because they are true. If they are true, then they must always have been true; they cannot have become true in the fourth and fifth century. But if they are both true and essential, how can it be that the early church took centuries to formulate them?"

A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker

"AD 200. . Noetus had been expelled from the Smyrnaean church for teaching that Christ was the Father, and that the Father himself was born, and suffered, and died."

Man's Religions John B. Noss 1968

"The controversy first became heated when Apollinarius, a bishop in Syria . . . asserted that Christ could not have been perfect man united with complete God, for then there would not have been one Son of God, but two sons, one by nature and one by adoption, the first with a divine, the second with a human will. Such a thing seemed inconceivable, religiously abhorrent."

"Nestorius . . . preached a sermon against calling the virgin Mary "the mother of God" declaring she did not bear a deity, she bore a man,"

Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die, but when people deviate from what the Bible teaches you can come up with the bizarre complexities of trinitarian religious mysteries that contradict logic, common sense and God's Word.

New Bible Dictionary 1982

"The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."

". . . it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."

". . . it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formation of it can be found in the Bible, . . ."

"Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the trinity, . . ."

The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism 1995

". . . scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament."

If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then how did the church of the first three centuries get along so well without it? If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then why is it not mentioned in the Bible?

The Encyclopedia Americana 1956

"Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."

The trinity is a deviation from believing in one God; it is a deviation from what the early church taught and it is a deviation from the scripture.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967

"The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century."

Who is Jesus? Anthony Buzzard

"The Old Testament is a strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there or even in any way shadowed forth, is an assumption that has long held sway in theology, but is utterly without foundation."

The New Encyclopedia Britannica 1976

"Neither the word trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."

The Shema consists of three sections of scripture Deuteronomy 6:4-9, 11:13-21, and Numbers 15:37-41. It is called the Shema after the Hebrew word hear, the first word in Deut. 6:4. The Shema was to be recited twice daily once upon arising and once when going to bed. So the Old Testament Jews would start and finish their day with 'Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.'

The Complete Word Study Old Testament 1994

"To the Jew, (Deut. 6:4-9) this is the most important text in the Old Testament. Jesus himself called the injunction in 6:5 'the first and great commandment' Matt.22:36-38. . . Moses is teaching not only the priority of belief in one God, but also a means to preserve that belief. As time went on, the proper understanding of the Shema with its spiritual implications was no longer grasped by the people. This absence of saving knowledge became a factor in their spiritual downfall."

Whenever God's people forget that there is only one God and they follow after other gods this will result in their downfall. This can be seen time and time again in the Old Testament where God's people forsook the Lord and then evil came upon them. God does not send this evil, but He warns us to stay away from the evil of worshipping more than one God.

Dictionary of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie

"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief."

Why You Should Believe In The Trinity 1989 Robert M. Bowman Jr.

"The New Testament does not contain a formalized explanation of the trinity that uses such words as trinity, three persons, one substance, and the like."

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976

"The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence. [said Karl Barth]"

Exploring The Christian Faith 1992

"nowhere in the Bible do we find the doctrine of the trinity clearly formulated"

"People who are using the King James Version might be inclined to point to I John 5:7 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost' But it is now generally recognized that this verse does not belong to the original text of the letter; it is a later insertion."

"The theological formulation took place later, after the days of the apostles."

"the doctrine of the trinity is not found in the Bible"

"The doctrine was to develop along mainly Greek lines"

Take note of the words "explicitly and formally", "formalized explanation", "express declaration", and "clearly formulated". These words are indicative of the fact that all the clear verses on the subjects of God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit do not even hint at a trinity. There are only a few verses that seem to hint at a trinity, and then only when they are twisted. The difficult or unclear verse must always be interpreted in light of the clear verses. If God is a coeternal, coequal, one substance, three-in-one Godhead, trinity, if that is what God really is, then he would have made himself known as such to the first century apostles; they would have made the trinity part of their beliefs teachings and writings. They would have used words like God the Son, coequal, coeternal, one substance, or trinity, but the scripture is devoid of all of these trinitarian words and phrases because the first century apostles did not believe or teach, or write about God being a trinity, or Jesus Christ being God. But the pagan and Greek and Babylonian religions used those words.

Dictionary Of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie

"The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are Greek philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."

The Rise of Christianity W.H.C. Frend 1985

"For him [Clement] the trinity consisted of a hierarchy of three graded beings, and from that concept - derived from Platonism - depended much of the remainder of his theological teaching."

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting

"Eberhard Griesebach, in an acedemic lecture on "Christianity and humanism" delivered in 1938, observed that in its encounter with Greek philosophy Christianity became theology. That was the fall of Christianity. The Problem thus highlighted stems from the fact that traditional orthodoxy, while it claims to find its origins in scripture, in fact contains elements drawn from a synthesis of Scripture and Neo-Platonism. The mingling of Hebrew and Greek thinking set in motion first in the second century by an influx of Hellenism through the Church Fathers, whose theology was colored by the Platonists Plotinus and Porphyry. The effects of the Greek influence are widely recognized by theologians, though they go largely unnoticed by many believers."

". . . the Trinity is an unintelligible proposition of platonic mysticisms that three are one and one is three"

The Greek mythology and pagan religious beliefs were derived from Babylon.

Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel 1870

"The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches . . . This Greek philosopher's (Plato, 4th century BC) conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all ancient (pagan) religions"

The Two Babylons 1916 Rev. Alexander Hislop

"Egypt and Greece derived their religion from Babylon"

Microsoft Encarta Funk & Wagnalls 1994

"Neoplatonism is a type of idealistic monism in which the ultimate reality of the universe is held to be an infinite, unknowable, perfect One. From this One emanates nous (pure intelligence), whence in turn is derived the world soul, the creative activity of which engenders the lesser souls of human beings. The world soul is conceived as an image of the nous, even as the nous is an image of the One; both the nous and the world soul, despite their differentiation, are thus consubstantial [one substance] with the One."

Microsoft Encarta Funk & Wagnalls 1994

"The theologians Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and St. Augustine were early Christian exponents of a Platonic perspective. Platonic ideas have had a crucial role in the development of Christian theology"

The Rise of Christianity W.H.C. Frend 1985

"we find Christianity tending to absorb Greek philosophical values, until by the end of the third century the line between the beliefs of educated Christian and educated pagan in the east would often be hard to draw."

The early Christians began mixing Greek and pagan and Babylonian philosophical and religious trinitarian concepts with their Christian doctrine which lead them to begin considering the trinity, and after three centuries that thinking finally took hold. Acts 17:22 says that the Greeks were too superstitious, and I Corinthians 1:22 says that the Jews require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom. The Greeks were too intellectual in their approach to God's Word. They became wise in their own eyes and the truth of God’s Word became foolishness to them, so they grafted their own superstitious philosophical wisdom into God’s Word and changed the truth into a lie; they changed Son of God to God the Son.

Catholic Encyclopedia 1991

"The term 'Trinity' does not appear in scripture"

"(The Doctrine of the Trinity) - hammered out over the course of three centuries of doctrinal controversy against modalism and subordinationism"

Why You Should Believe In The Trinity 1989 Robert M. Bowman Jr.

"Roman Catholics . . often claim that the trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was first revealed through the ministry of the church centuries after the Bible was written. This is in keeping with the Roman Catholic belief that Christian doctrine may be based either on the Bible or on church tradition."

The Roman Catholic Church did not get the doctrine of the trinity from the Bible, they hammered out their own theology of what they wanted God to be over several hundred years, and mixed Greek philosophy with Babylonian mystery religion, and their own private interpretations of the Bible.

I Peter 1:20, 21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

People don't respect God's Word, they are more interested in inventing their own theology by the will of man instead of believing the word of God, they are not interested in rightly dividing God's word of truth. The trinity is private interpretation and wrong dividing of God's word.

Jesus Christ is not God 1975 Victor Paul Wierwille

"Long before the founding of Christianity the idea of a triune god or a god-in-three persons was a common belief in ancient religions. Although many of these religions had many minor deities, they distinctly acknowledged that there was one supreme God who consisted of three persons or essences. The Babylonians used an equilateral triangle to represent this three-in-one god, now the symbol of the modern three-in-one believers."

"The Hindu trinity was made up of the gods Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. The Greek triad was composed of Zeus, Athena and Apollo. These three were said by the pagans to 'agree in one.' One of the largest pagan temples built by the Romans was constructed at Ballbek (situated in present day Lebanon) to their trinity of Jupiter, Mercury and Venus. In Babylon the planet Venus was revered as special and was worshipped as a trinity consisting of Venus, the moon and the sun. This triad became the Babylonian holy trinity in the fourteenth century before Christ."

"Although other religions for thousands of years before Christ was born worshipped a triune god, the trinity was not a part of Christian dogma and formal documents of the first three centuries after Christ."

"That there was no formal, established doctrine of the trinity until the fourth century is a fully documented historical fact."

"Clearly, historians of church dogma and systematic theologians agree that the idea of a Christian trinity was not a part of the first century church. The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it. So how then did a trinitarian doctrine come about? It gradually evolved and gained momentum in late first, second and third centuries as pagans, who had converted to Christianity, brought to Christianity some of their pagan beliefs and practices."

Who is Jesus? Anthony Buzzard

". . . we shall find not a hint that Jesus believed himself to be an uncreated being who had existed from eternity. Matthew and Luke trace the origin of Jesus to a special act of creation by God when the Messiah's conception took place in the womb of Mary. It was this miraculous event which marked the beginning-the genesis, or origin of Jesus of Nazareth"

Arius and his followers believed that Jesus Christ was created, that he was not in the beginning with God. They believed that he had a beginning, whereas God has no beginning. This makes Jesus Christ substantially different from God, which means he cannot be of one-substance with God as the trinitarians believe.

Documents of the Christian Church 2nd Ed 1963 Henery Bettenson

(quotes from Arius and his followers)

"If, said he, the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence; hence it is clear that there was a [a time] when the son was not."

"The Son of God is from what is not and there was [a time] when he was not; saying also that the Son of God, in virtue of his free will, is capable of evil and good, and calling him a creature and a work."

The Rise of Christianity 1985 W.H.C. Frend

"If the Father begat the son, there must be when he was not. He could not therefore be coeternal with the Father."[said by Arius]

Man's Religions 1968 John B. Noss

"Arius held that Christ, . . . was a created being; he was made like other creatures out of nothing, . . . The Son, he argued, had a beginning, while God was without beginning."

The Church in History 1964 B. K. Kuiper

"The heathen believe in many gods. Arius thought that to believe that the Son is God as well as that the Father is God would mean that there are two Gods, and that therefore the Christians would be falling back into heathenism."

Arius believed that Jesus Christ was born, that he had a beginning, he believed that Jesus Christ was the created Son, not the Creator, and for taking the Word of God literally he was excommunicated and anathematized. Starting with Nimrod in ancient Babylon until today man has stubbornly rebelled against the doctrine of one God.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exodus 34:14a For thou shalt worship no other god:

The trinity is idolatry, it puts Jesus Christ as a god before God.

Forgers of the Word 1983 Victor Paul Wierwille

"To say Jesus Christ is God the Son is idolatry. To say Jesus is the Son of God is truth."

I Samuel 15:23 For Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

The Lord God Almighty, the Creator, the Father of Jesus Christ is one God not three, not three-in-one, not one-in-three, ONE! and only ONE! God is not a three-headed multi-personality trinity.

The Bible clearly refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God 50 times; it never refers to him as God the Son. The phrase, Son of God, is in the genitive case; showing that Jesus Christ originated from and belongs to God. In no way can the Son of God be the same as God the Son, that violates grammar, language and common sense. God the Son is not a biblical term, it does not appear in the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic texts. God the Son is however a Babylonian term. The Babylonians made Nimrod a god, and when he died they deified his son Tammuz as God the Son. Making God a man and man a god was invented in Babylon. This idolatry and false belief has been carried into pagan religions, and it has worked its way into Christianity as the doctrine of the trinity.

Ravaged By The New Age 1996 Texe Marrs

"Nimrod, the first of the great Babylonian rulers, was also declared to be the first of the man-gods."

The Two Babylons 1916 Rev. Alexander Hislop

"He was worshipped in Babylon under the name of El-Bar, or 'God the Son'."

It is clear that the trinity does not have a Biblical origin. It can be traced back to ancient Babylon, pagan Greeks and Romans. It was forced upon the Christian Church by the emperor Constantine. It was adhered to by bishops who were afraid to speak against it. Then when the Protestants broke away from the corrupt Roman Church most of them still carried the pagan doctrine of the trinity, because they had practiced error for so long that they accepted the trinitarian doctrine.

Encyclopedia Britannica 1968

"The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325. Constantine himself presiding, actively guiding the discussion, and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council 'of one substance with the father.' Over-awed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them against their inclination. Constantine regarded the decision of Nicaea as divinely inspired. As long as he lived no one dared openly to challenge the creed of Nicaea."

The Origins of Pagan and Christian Beliefs Edward Carpenter 1920 1996

"And when at the Council of Nicea (325 AD) it [the early church] endeavored to establish an official creed, the strife and bitterness only increased."

"-the Nicean creed had nothing to propound except some extremely futile speculations about the relation to each other of the Father and the Son, and the relation of both to the Holy Ghost,"

Man's Religions 1968 John B. Noss

"This creed, adopted under pressure from the emperor, who wanted peace, did not immediately solve the doctrinal difficulties or save the peace. The phrases (not made) and (of the same substance with the Father) were bitterly denounced by many"

The Rise of Christianity 1985 W.H.C. Frend

"The Emperor exerted all his influence toward winning unanimous acceptance and nearly succeeded. Only two bishops stood out against it; but two other senior bishops refused to sign the anathemas against Arius and were exiled."

Constantine was really only interested in unifying the empire and gaining more power. He broke truces, started wars, and even had relatives killed to further his power. Constantine was more interested in unity than in getting the correct doctrine of the trinity. In fact before he died Constantine switched sides and took Arius' position regarding the trinity instead of the position that he forced through the council of Nicea. Without Constantine's presiding, actively guiding, and actively controlling the discussion there would not have been a 'coequal' 'coeternal' 'God the Son' Nicene creed. But what manner of man was this person who pushed through this doctrine which was to become the cornerstone of Christianity?

A History of Christianity Volume 1 1997 Kenneth Scott Latourette

"Constantine. . . although only a catechumen, [One who is being instructed in a subject at an elementary level] presided over its [the council of Nicea] opening session, and was active in its deliberations. Whether Constantine appreciated the niceties of the questions at issue is highly doubtful, for he was a layman, a warrior and administrator, not a philosopher or an expert theologian."

The Rise of Christianity 1985 W.H.C. Frend

"Like all great conquerors from Alexander to Napoleon or even Hitler his [Constantine's] aim was unity and unification on a worldwide scale."

A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker

"He [Constantine] accepted the pagan title of Pontifex Maximus, and his coins still showed the emblems of the Sun-God."

Babylon Mystery Religion 1981 Ralph Woodrow

". . his [Constantine's] conversion is to be seriously questioned. Even though he had much to do with the establishment of certain doctrines and customs within the church, the facts plainly show that he was not truly converted-not in the Biblical sense of the word."

"Probably the most obvious indication that he was not truly converted may be seen from the fact that after his conversion he committed several murders-including the murder of his own wife and son!"

"Yet in 326-very shortly after directing the Nicean Council-he had his son put to death."

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting

"It was Constantine who by official edict brought Christianity to believe in the formal division of the Godhead into two – God the Father and God the Son. It remained the task of a later generation to bring Christianity to believe in the Triune God."

". . . years after winning this heaven-inspired triumph, history divulges that the alleged follower of Jesus murdered an already vanquished rival, killed his wife by having her boiled alive in her own bath – and murdered an innocent son." [speaking of Constantine]

A History of Christianity 1976 Paul Johnson

". . . appears to have been a sun-worshipper, one of a number of the late pagan cults which had observances in common with Christians. Worship of such gods was not a novel idea. Every Greek or Roman expected that political success followed from religious piety. Christianity was the religion of Constantine's father. Although Constantine claimed that he was the thirteenth apostle, his was no sudden Damascus conversion. Indeed it is highly doubtful that he ever truly abandoned sun-worship. After his professed acceptance of Christianity, he built a triumphal arch to the sun god and in Constantinople set up a statue of the same sun god bearing his own features. He was finally deified after his death by official edict in the Empire, as were many Roman rulers."

". . . His private life became monstrous as he aged . . . His abilities had always lain in management . . . [he was] a master of . . . the smoothly-worded compromise."

It would be an understatement to say that Constantine was a crooked politician; yet this is the man who is mainly responsible for the Nicene Creed's doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one substance three in one God. One day he is setting the doctrine for the Christian church another day he is murdering people; it would seem that to anyone with any common sense that formulating church doctrine should not be done by a non-repentant murderer. How many of you would like to have a non-repentant murderer setting your Christian doctrine? Yet if you believe the Nicene Creed you have done just that.

Documents of the Christian Church 2nd Ed 1963 Henery Bettenson

"The decisions of Nicea were really the work of a minority, and they were misunderstood and disliked by many"

Forgers of the Word 1983 Victor Paul Wierwille

"The truth of Jesus Christ the Son of God was deliberately forged into the doctrine of God the Son. Seeds of Jesus Christ as God were planted and sprouted during the lifetime of Paul, continued growing during Timothy's lifetime and flourished shortly thereafter, reaching full bloom for all future creeds by 325 AD"

"The doctrine that Jesus Christ the Son of God was God the son was decreed by worldly and ecclesiastical powers. Men were forced to accept it at the point of the sword or else, Thus, the error of the trinity was propounded to the end that ultimately people believed it to be the truth. Thus Christianity became in essence like Babylonian heathenism, with only a veneer of Christian names."

A History of Christianity Volume 1 1997 Kenneth Scott Latourette

"To enforce the decisions of the Council of Nicea, Constantine commanded, with the death penalty for disobedience, the burning of all books composed by Arius, banished Arius and his closest supporters, and deposed from their sees Eusebius of Nicomedia and another bishop who had been active in the support of Arius."

The Rise of Christianity 1985 W.H.C. Frend

"the controversial term, defining the son as Consubstantial with [homoousios] the father was introduced by Constantine. The term was objectionable to any Origenist bishop and had been rejected by Dionysius of Alexandria when used by the Libyan bishops, and the Council of Antioch"

"The great majority of the eastern bishops were placed in a false position. they dared not challenge the emperor"

A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker

"The majority (of the bishops) were conservatives in the sense that they represented . . . subordinationism of the eastern tradition. The Emperor himself was present at the assembly and dominated its proceedings."

"From the very beginning, however, people like Eusebius of Caesarea had doubts about the (Nicene) creed, doubts focused on the word 'homoousios'. (Greek for one substance) . . . The term was non-Scriptural, it had a very doubtful theological history."

"Eusebius of Nicomedia and all save two of the other bishops, signed the creed-willing no doubt, to go along with what the emperor wanted. Yet he and many others continued to suspect its language."

The majority of the bishops at the council of Nicea believedin what is called subordinationism, which is a belief that Jesus Christ is subordinate to God the Father, not coequal, not coeternal, and not God the Son. The teachings of Arius were condemned in 325, but the teachings of Arius did not die, by 359 Arianism was widely accepted, that is until the minority trinitarian bishops found another emperor that they could get to propose their trinitarian creed at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

Man's Religions John B. Noss 1968

"The doctrine of the trinity he [Michael Servetus] felt to be a Catholic perversion and himself to be a good New Testament Christian in combating it. . . According to his conception, a trinity composed of three distinct persons in one God is a rational impossibility;"

 

Saying that Jesus Christ is not God does not degrade Jesus Christ it merely sets things in their proper order so we can know God and worship Him in spirit and truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Satan the Devil strongly desires man to worship him instead of the one true God, and when he can't achieve his primary goal then his next desire is to get man to worship anything other than the true God. Satan has been quite successful in tricking good Christians into worshipping Jesus Christ as God instead of worshipping the one true God, the Father of Jesus Christ.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

We can no longer be lulled to sleep by the bizarre, complex, confusing, ritualistic, mysterious Babylonian traditions of trinitarian doctrines. We must come back to God's Word and worship the one true God; the Father of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:4b there is none other God but one.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting

"The God of Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the apostles was one person, the Father. One cannot be made equal to two or three. All that can be done with one is to fractionalize it. Divide it into smaller segments and it is no longer one. Expand it, and in spite of prodigious mental gymnastics on the part of Trinitarians, it cannot be made into two or three and still remain one."

". . . it is not uncommon for religious leaders to insist that you must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, or be branded a cultist."

"One of the great marvels of Christian history has been the ability of theologians to convince Christian people that three persons are really one God."

A Statement of Reasons for Not Believing the Doctrine of the Trinitarians Concerning the Nature of God and the Person of Christ 1833 Andrews Norton

"When we look back through the long ages of the reign of the Trinity . . . we shall perceive that few doctrines have produced more unmixed evil."

The Bible does not give us a doctrine of a trinity, the historical record shows that modern Christian trinitarian beliefs were not formulated until about 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ, but in pagan religions trinitarian beliefs date back to ancient Babylon, thousands of years before Jesus Christ. The coequal, coeternal, one substance, three in one trinity is not a Christian Biblical doctrine; yet there are those who insist that it is the cornerstone of Christianity.

In our day and time the doctrine of the trinity is a cornerstone of idolatry.

 

On 7/21/2018 at 1:09 AM, Cos said:

Here is another claim, “most translations incorrectly translate ekeinos as ‘He.’”

 

 

 

 

 

The NWT translation at John 2:21 has; “But he (Greek ekeinos) was talking about the temple of his body”.

 

 

 

 

 

If “spirit” [pneuma] means “an impersonal force” as claimed by sami, WHY then are actual persons also deemed pneuma in Scripture?

 

 

 

 

 

The only blatant departure from the rules is reading a false premise in to bible text and then constructing straw man arguments to try and maintain that false premise.<><

 

 

If one is making a study of scripture and not merely mouthing the pagan teachings of weeds it would be quite possible to understand what the Bible is teaching.  If that same person has to be told and shown the same information time and again,  this is a person who does not want to know what the Bible has to say but is following the same pattern as Adam and Eve "you will be like God." Yes, making your own determination as to what is truth. Truth was spoken by Almighty God, Satan told the lie.
The same is put before all of us today "life and good and death and bad" Dueteronomy 30:15-20 "I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad. 16 [If you will listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God,] which I am commanding you today, so as to love Jehovah your God, to walk in his ways and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will be bound to keep alive and to multiply, and Jehovah your God must bless you in the land to which you are going to take possession of it.
17 “But if your heart turns away and you do not listen, and you are actually seduced and bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I do tell YOU today that YOU will positively perish. YOU will not lengthen YOUR days on the ground to which you are crossing the Jordan to go to take possession of it. 19 I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against YOU today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days,..."

The spirit is "HOLY" BECAUSE IT BELONGS TO JEHOVAH.
 Some of the ways the holy spirit is represented are water, oil, a dove and fire. These comparisons would make no sense if the spirit were a person.
At Judges 6:34 the spirit is coming upon someone "Then Jehovah’s spirit came upon Gideon and he sounded the horn, and the Abiezrites rallied behind him".

And at Judges 15:14  the spirit is empowering "When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted triumphantly at meeting him(Samson). Then Jehovah’s spirit empowered him, and the ropes on his arms became like linen threads that were scorched with fire, and his fetters melted off his hands."

The teaching asserting holy spirit as a divine person was foreign to the writers of the Bible and originated several centuries after the Greek Scriptures were completed. How does the Bible actually define holy spirit ?

As said before, the word “spirit” is translated from the Hebrew ruach and the Greek pneuma, both words also denoting breath or wind, an invisible force. Scripture says that “God is a Spirit” (John 4:24). God is a spirit but not all spirits (forces that are invisible) are God.
Young's Literal Translation
God is a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'
GOD'S WORD® Translation
God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
Jubilee Bible 2000
God is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
King James 2000 Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
American King James Version
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
American Standard Version
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Yet we are also told that God has a Spirit.
Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Exodus 31:3; 35:31; Nehemiah 9:20; Job 33:4; Ps. 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 32:15; 40:13; 42:1; 44:3,4; 59:19-21; 61:1; 63:14; Ezekiel 36:27; 37:14; 39:29 etc. etc.

So I ask again, what is holy spirit?
It is the power of the Almighty God Jehovah, the limitless power by which he created the universe.  
Pay attention because your life depends upon knowing God's truth and not man's attempted rewrite. The Scripture never describs holy spirit as a distinct person or entity but most often refers to it as and connects it with God's devine power "As for me, I am filled with power by the spirit of Jehovah, And with justice and might, To tell to Jacob his revolt and to Israel his sin." Micah 3:8  
Jewish scholars, examining the references to the Spirit in the Hebrew texts, have never defined  holy spirit as anything but the power of God.

In the Greek Scriptures, Paul referred to it as the spirit of power, love and a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7). Informing Mary that Jesus would be supernaturally conceived in her womb, an angel told her, “ Holy spirit will come upon you,” and the divine messenger described this spirit to her as “the power of the Most High will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35).

Jesus began His ministry “filled with the power of the spirit” (Luke 4:14). He told His followers, “You shall receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you” (Acts 1:8).

Peter relates that “God anointed Jesus with holy spirit and with power” (Acts 10:38). This was the same power that enabled Christ to perform many mighty miracles during His earthly ministry. Likewise, Jesus worked through the apostle Paul “in mighty signs and wonders, with the power of the spirit of God” (Romans 15:19).

Even the New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The OT [Old Testament] clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person .   .   .   God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly . . . The majority of NT [New Testament] texts reveal God’s spirit as some thing , not some one ; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God” (1965, Vol. 13, “Spirit of God,” pp. 574-576).

The reference work A Catholic Dictionary similarly acknowledges, “On the whole the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power” (William Addis and Thomas Arnold, 2004, “Trinity, Holy,” p. 827).

The Scriptures depict holy spirit as the power of God many times over.It is also shown to be the mind of God and the very essence and life force through which our heavenly Father begets (anoints)  human beings as His spiritual children. The holy spirit is not God, but a vital aspect of God, the agency through which Jehovah and Christ both work.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary describes it as the “manifestation of divine presence and power perceptible especially in prophetic inspiration” (Vol. 3, 1992, p. 260).

The Scriptures continually reveal that God imparted divine inspiration to His prophets and servants through His holy spirit. Peter noted that “prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by holy spirit” (2 Peter 1:21).

Paul wrote that God’s purpose for mankind had been “revealed by the spirit to His holy apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 3:5) and that his own teachings were inspired by God's spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13). Paul further explains that it is through His spirit that God has revealed to true Christians the things He has prepared for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). Working through the spirit, Jehovah is the revealer of truth to those who serve Him.

Jesus told His followers that the holy spirit, which the Father would send," would teach" "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you."(John 14:26).

Jesus had this spiritual comprehension in abundance. “And the spirit of Jehovah will settle upon him, The spirit of wisdom and of understanding, The spirit of counsel and of mightiness, The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.” (Isaiah 11:2).

As the Son of Man on earth, Jesus portrayed in His personal conduct the divine attributes of Almighty God through completely living by His Father’s biblical standards through the power of the holy spirit  "And the spirit of Jehovah will settle upon him, The spirit of wisdom and of understanding, The spirit of counsel and of mightiness, The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.( 1 Timothy 3:16).

The Father imparts the same spirit to true Christians through Jesus Christ   "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you".John 14:26

 "When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me." John 15:26;

"(not because of any righteous works we had done, but because of his own mercy), he saved us by means of the bath that brought us to life and by making us new by holy spirit. 6 He poured this spirit out richly on us through Jesus Christ our Savior,"Titus 3:5-6

 "For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons." (Romans 8:14

" for his divine power has granted us all the things that contribute to life and godly devotion through the accurate knowledge of the One who called us by his own glory and virtue. 4 Through these things he has granted us the precious and very grand promises, so that through these you may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the world’s corruption produced by wrong desire."2 Peter 1:3,4).

 Holy spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a person. For example, it is referred to as a gift  "And the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also on people of the nations." Acts 10:45

" Do not neglect the gift (the spirit) in you that was given you through a prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you."1 Timothy 4:14

God gives without limit  "For the one (Christ) whom God sent speaks the sayings of God, for He does not give the spirit sparingly."John 3:34

 We are told that holy spirit can be quenched " Do not put out the fire of the spirit."1 Thessalonians 5:19

and that it can be poured out on people "And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, 18 and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 And I will give wonders in heaven above and signs on earth below—blood and fire and clouds of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah comes. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’ 22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Nazareneʹ was a man publicly shown to you by God through powerful works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know. 23 This man, who was handed over by the determined will and foreknowledge of God, you fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men, and you did away with him. 24 But God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it. 25 For David says about him: ‘I keep Jehovah constantly in front of me, for he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. 26 On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. And I will reside in hope; 27 because you will not leave me in the Grave, nor will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. 28 You have made life’s ways known to me; you will fill me with great joy in your presence.’ 29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. Acts 2:17-33

and that we are also baptized with holy spirit " I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire. Matthew 3:11.

People can drink of it "John 7:37-39

partake of it (Hebrews 6:4) and be filled with it (Acts 2:4; Ephesians 5:18).  Holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6). These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person or personal being!

The Spirit is also described by other designations—”the Holy spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation” which show it is not a person. "But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise. 15 That is why I also, since I have heard of the faith that you have in the Lord Jesus and the love that you demonstrate toward all the holy ones, 16 never stop giving thanks for you. I continue mentioning you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him.(Ephesians 1:13-17)

In contrast to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in Their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as breath (John 20:22), wind (Acts 2:2), fire (Acts 2:3), water (John 4:14; John 7:37-39), oil (Psalms 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest, or down payment, on eternal life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV).

These depictions would certainly be difficult to understand if the holy spirit is a person!

In Matthew 1:20 we find further proof that holy spirit is not a distinct entity, but God’s divine power. Here we read that Jesus was conceived by holy spirit. However, Jesus continually prayed to and addressed Jehovah God as his Father and not the holy spirit - another thing that is apparent, is Jesus himself is not a co-equal part of a trinity or he would be praying to himself. (Matthew 10:32-33; Matthew 11:25-27; Matthew 12:50). He never represented the spirit as his Father! Clearly, holy spirit was the agency or power through which the Father begot Jesus as His Son.
Paul’s example and teaching were in line with that of Christ

If God were a Trinity, surely Paul, who was taught directly by the resurrected Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) and who wrote much of the theological underpinnings of the early Church, would have comprehended and taught this concept. Yet we find no such teaching in His writings.

Moreover, Paul’s standard greeting in his letter to the congregations, as well as individuals to whom he wrote, consistently mentions “God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet in each of his greetings he never mentions the holy spirit! (The same can also be said of Peter in the salutations of both his epistles.)

The same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every epistle that bears Paul’s name. Notice how consistent he is in not including the holy spirit in his greetings:

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 1:7).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:3).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:2).

• “Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:3).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:2).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:2).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Colossians 1:2).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 1:1).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:1-2).

• “Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Timothy 1:2).

• “Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (2 Timothy 1:2).

• “Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior” (Titus 1:4).

• “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Philemon 1:3).

Mention of a holy spirit is always left out of these greetings, an unbelievable and inexplicable oversight if the spirit were indeed a person or entity coequal with Jehovah God and'or Christ Jesus!

This is even more surprising when we consider that the congregations to which Paul wrote had many gentile members from polytheistic backgrounds who had formerly worshipped numerous gods. Paul’s epistles record no attempt on his part to explain the Trinity or the spirit as a divine person equal with God, Jehovah and Jesus Christ.

In all of Paul’s writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the spirit mentioned along with the Father and Jesus Christ in such expressions, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of  holy spirit”  in which believers share, not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God...."The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the sharing in the holy spirit be with all of you."

 The point Paul makes here is that God’s spirit is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.

As 1 John 1:3 tells us, “ that which we have seen and heard we are reporting also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ." There is no mention whatsoever of holy spirit.

Jesus likewise never spoke of holy spirit as a divine third person. Instead, in numerous passages He spoke only of the relationship between the Father and himself "And going a little way forward, he fell facedown, praying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.” Matthew 26:39

"Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

"And at the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice: “Eʹli, Eʹli, laʹma sa·bach·thaʹni?” which means, when translated: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Mark 15:34

"This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,"John 5:18-22

The spirit as a person is conspicuously absent from Christ’s teaching in general. Of particular interest in this regard are His many statements about himself and the Father, especially when he never makes similar statements about himself and the spirit.
The spirit is absent in visions of God’s throne

In visions of God’s throne recorded in the Bible, although the Father and Christ are seen, the spirit as a third person is absent.

In Acts 7:55-56, which describes the martyrdom of Stephen, we read that he “gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, ‘Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!’” He saw the Father and the Son, but no other spirit creature, equal, co-equal or otherwise.

Daniel 7:9-14 similarly describes Daniel’s vision of heaven. There he saw “the Ancient of Days” - Jehovah, the Father - plus millions of angelic beings and “One like the Son of Man,” the preexistent Jesus Christ, but no third person as a Triune entity.

And in Revelation 4-5 and Revelation 7:10 we see that Jesus, the Lamb of God, is mentioned as being at the right hand of the Father, but no one is mentioned as being at the Father’s left hand. Nowhere is a third spirit person mentioned. Nowhere in any of these passages, or anywhere in Scripture, are three divine persons pictured together.

In the final book of the Bible (and the last to be written), the Holy spirit as a divine person is completely absent from its pages. The book describes “a new heaven and new earth” (Revelation 21:1) wherein “the holy city is with men, and He (Jehovah) will dwell with them” (Revelation 21:3). Christ the Lamb is also present (Revelation 21:22, 23) "because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." "And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp."
Again, no third person.

This is why Paul states in 1 Corinthians 8:6 that “there is one God, the Father . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ,” no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person or co-equal personage. Elsewhere he (Paul) makes reference to Colossians 2:2 "This is so that their (the congregation) hearts may be comforted and that they may be harmoniously joined together in love and may have all the riches that result from the full assurance of their understanding, in order to gain an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ" Here again mentioning only the two  not three.

We should also consider that nowhere do we find any prayer, psalm or hymn addressed to or dedicated to a trinity. Nowhere do we see worship of a third person. Again and again, the biblical record just doesn’t support the Trinity doctrine in places where it should be obvious if it were true!

This is why, as we have seen from numerous quotes by many historians and biblical researchers, admitting the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible. We must not cling to long-held religious traditions if they contradict the Scriptures! Our beliefs must rest solidly on the teachings of the Bible. Jesus said, “[God’s] word is truth” (John 17:17).
What about scriptures describing actions of a co-equal partner, a triune Spirit?

Some scriptural passages seem to describe holy spirit as apparently engaging in personal activity. Does this mean that the Spirit is a distinct person?

While at first this might seem to indicate as much, it doesn’t really prove that at all. In the languages of Bible times, nonpersonal things were sometimes described in personal ways and as having personlike activities.

For example, in Genesis 4:10 God says to Cain: “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.” Here Abel’s shed blood is described as having a “voice” that “cries out” from the ground. Yet clearly this is figurative language, as blood has no voice and cannot speak.

Similarly, in the book of Proverbs, wisdom is personified as calling aloud and crying out (Proverbs 1:20-21). Proverbs 8 describes wisdom as crying out, standing on a high hill, calling to men, speaking, having lips and a mouth, loving and being loved, having children and having accompanied and rejoiced with God. Yet obviously wisdom is not a person and does none of these things in a literal sense!

Likewise, Psalms 65:13 describes valleys shouting for joy and singing. Psalms 96:11-12 attributes emotions to the heavens, earth and fields. Psalms 98:8 says the rivers clap their hands. Psalms 148:4-5 describes the skies and rain praising God.

Isaiah 3:26 says the gates of the city of Jerusalem will lament and mourn. Isaiah 14:8 speaks of cypress trees rejoicing and cedar trees talking. Isaiah 35:1 ascribes emotions to the wilderness and says the desert will rejoice. Isaiah 44:23 and Isaiah 49:13 describe mountains, forests, trees and the heavens singing.

Isaiah 55:12 says that hills will break into singing and trees will clap their hands. In Habakkuk 2:11 stones and timbers are described as talking to each other.

We find similar personifications of nonpersonal things in the New Testament as well. Matthew 11:19 speaks of wisdom having children. Romans 6 says that sin enslaves and reigns over human beings (Romans 6:6; Romans 6:12; Romans 6:16). In Romans 10:6 righteousness is described as speaking. In 1 John 5:8 water and blood are said to testify and agree.

Yet clearly none of these things happen literally. At times the Bible similarly applies such figurative language to the Holy Spirit, ascribing activity to it as though it were a person. Yet, as noted earlier in this chapter, the Bible also describes the Holy Spirit in ways that clearly show it is not a person.

As even the New Catholic Encyclopedia, quoted from earlier,acknowledges: “The majority of New Testament texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God. When a quasi-personal activity is ascribed to God’s spirit, e.g., speaking, hindering, desiring, dwelling (Acts 8:29; Acts 16:7; Romans 8:9), one is not justified in concluding immediately that in these passages God’s spirit is regarded as a Person; the same expressions are used also in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas In Acts, the use of the words ‘Holy Spirit,’ with or without an article, is rich and abundant. However, again, it is difficult to demonstrate personality from the texts” (2003, Vol. 13, “Spirit, Holy,” p. 428).

Thus we see that in some cases where the Holy Spirit is described in a personal activity, we should understand this as God using his Spirit as the power or agency through which He acts.

Consider, for example, that if a man’s hand takes hold of a book and lifts it, we can say the man lifted the book. This does not make the hand a separate person. Nor does it mean that the hand is the man. The hand is merely part of, or an extension of, the man. And it is the agency through which the man is acting. Similarly, the Holy Spirit is the agency through which God or Son or both acts.

Of course, Jehovah's Holy spirit is far more than a hand. It is His limitless power by which God, as Psalms 139:7-10 and Jeremiah 23:23-24 shows us, It is the invisible energizing force that God puts into action to accomplish his will. It is holy because it comes from Jehovah, who is clean and righteous to the highest degree, and because it is God’s means to accomplish what is holy.Luke 1:35; Acts 1:8.

This is why Peter in Acts 5:1-10 said that Ananias and Sapphira “lied to the Holy spirit” and also that they “lied . . . to God.” This passage doesn’t indicate that the Spirit is God or one of the supposed three persons of God, as some read into this passage. The apostles were anointed with Holy spirit and through the power of God's spirit Peter knew Ananias was lying. Jehovah's Spirit is the agency through which Peter knew he lied and acted accordingly.
" However, a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, sold some property. 2 But he secretly held back some of the price, with his wife’s knowledge, and he brought just a part of it and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said: “Ananias, why has Satan emboldened you to lie to the holy spirit and secretly hold back some of the price of the field? 4 As long as it remained with you, did it not remain yours? And after it was sold, was it not in your control? Why have you thought up such a deed as this in your heart? You have lied, not to men, but to God.” 5 On hearing these words, Ananias collapsed and died. And great fear came over all those who heard about it. 6 Then the younger men rose, wrapped him in cloths, carried him out, and buried him. 7 Now after an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter said to her: “Tell me, did you two sell the field for so much?” She said: “Yes, for that amount.” 9 So Peter said to her: “Why did you two agree to make a test of the spirit of Jehovah? Look! The feet of those who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Instantly she collapsed at his feet and died. When the young men came in, they found her dead and they carried her out and buried her alongside her husband."

Jesus Christ’s reference in John 16:7 to holy spirit as a “Helper” (or “Counselor,” “Comforter” or “Advocate” as some versions translate it) is a personification that provides a good analogy of part of the Spirit’s function in the lives of true Christians. And as noted before, many passages show the Spirit as the power of God to help and assist us, not a distinct person as Trinitarians maintain.

And BTW, the Scripture you quoted (John 2:21) was referencing Christ not the holy spirit. EKEINOS means that one; From ekei; that one (or (neuter) thing); often intensified by the article prefixed -- he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those.

Does it really make a difference to people at this time in man's history ? It may be of interest to you because digging for what you treasure is a passion.

I stumbled on to the Ancient Hebrew site quite a number of years ago, so yes, I am a fan?  Anything having to do with ancient languages are posts from quite awhile ago, some were kept on my word pad and some I had to hunt for on other sites when my computer died an unnatural death.

Since then my mind and body has gone south and I have no expectation of a makeover until the paradise. Happy to meet you, you are quite a brilliant person.

On 7/13/2018 at 9:50 PM, Cos said:

There is no mistake; Christ did not cease to exist when He was executed on the cross. The “ransom sacrifice” as some like to call it was by the shedding of His blood. The idea that death means you cease to exist is another clear example of how some will read into Scripture what has no biblical support.

 

 

 

Just as when they say the Holy Spirit is not a Person but a “power” with no biblical support. And then regardless of any rationality will claim that all the many times the Scriptures demonstrate the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, they say that these are personifications.

 

 

 

Some as usual go into a long incoherent tirade and avoid (play down) what Jesus says to maintain a false idea that is read into the Scriptures, and then they will later go on to claim that that “has already been addressed”. <><

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Melinda, I implore you to reason on your words.  

How is your example of the Catholic Church any different than the Watchtower?  For any who reject teachings such as “this generation”, the Armageddon dates that have come and gone, and Watchtower’s desire to put a manmade organization on a pedestal as the source of salvation, and which they proudly call “earthly Zion”, disfellowshipping ensues.  Any failed teaching gives evidence of lack of knowledge from God.  James 1:16-18  Failed doctrine has no relationship with Christ’s truth nor is it good news, but only stumbling forecasts made by stubborn priests already “defrocked” in the eyes of God.  They have haughtily rejected Christ as their head, usurping his authority by expecting obedience of all Christ’s anointed priests, to be given to them.   Ezek 21:25-27; Matt 23:12; 24:24

Here is your comment from a different perspective:

In a sense exJWs are like Alex. They did not stay under the authority of religions like the Watchtower organization, but examined the matter of what the real authority the Bible said, regardless of the consequences, (regardless of being disfellowshipped)  whereas the majority of persons accept the authority of the Watchtower and its erroneous teachings and refuse to look any further. 

Feb 12, 2012  Calvin Rouse, lawyer for the Watchtower in the Menlo Park kingdom hall lawsuit:

“We are a hierarchal religion structured just like the Catholic Church. And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish priest -- in the parish.”

This set of “consequences” affects anointed ones – the “holy priesthood” of God, as well as many others who have recognized the sound of Christ’s Truth. When choosing Christ’s full authority over men, they can distinguish between the rotten fruit of false/failed doctrine, and fine fruit sourced in Christ. John 15:1-8   Why is it, that the majority of JWs cannot recognize it?  Why is it that God’s anointed priests still inside, turn a blind eye to such falsehood?  Why do they not perceive THEY are the true Zion and that their hearts are the dwelling and Temple of God? 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Eph 2:20-22; Zech 8:3  Simply because they have filled their mind and heart with teachings/”fruit”/”wine” from false leaders, - harlots -  just like the Catholics who listen to the pope. John 7:18; Matt 7:15,16; Jer 2:21; Deut 32:32,33; John 15:5,16; Rev 17:1,2

But in this case, it is gravely serious, because these priests are God’s chosen people.  Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22

You said, 

“Hosea 4:6 shows that people will be silenced for lack of knowledge.” 

“But let no one bring a charge,
    let no one accuse another,
for your people are like those
    who bring charges against a priest.

 (a Judicial committee of false “priests”/elders who are not anointed, judging God’s anointed priesthood as “spiritually dead” for accepting Christ as their Head, instead of a “wicked slave. Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; Rev 13:  Matt 24:48-51)

⁵ You stumble day and night,
    and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother—
⁶     my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

“Because you have rejected knowledge,
    I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
    I also will ignore your children.
⁷ The more priests there were,
    the more they sinned against me;
    they exchanged their glorious God for something disgraceful.
⁸ They feed on the sins of my people
    and relish their wickedness.
⁹ And it will be: Like people, like priests.
    I will punish both of them for their ways
    and repay them for their deeds.

¹⁰ “They will eat but not have enough;
    they will engage in (spiritual) prostitution but not flourish,
because they have deserted the Lord
    to give themselves ¹¹ to prostitution;
old wine and new wine ( old light, new light)
  take away their understanding.
¹² My people consult a wooden idol,
    and a diviner’s rod speaks to them.
A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
    they are unfaithful to their God.

Do JWs allow a spirit of prostitution to lead them astray?  Yes.  False prophets/Harlots have convinced you to “serve the organization”, transposing this to mean, serving God. Rev 13;1,4,7,8,11,14-17 Nothing on this earth is to be compared to, or served, except God and His Son.  Isa 42:8; 46:5,20; Luke 4:8; Rom 6:16 The apostles didn’t “serve” the needs of an organization, but they wholeheartedly served God and Jesus. Matt 6:24  Where does it say in the scriptures that an organization, other than the ‘organized’ anointed Body of Christ, the Temple of God, must be recognized as the pathway to salvation? Ps 2:6; Ezek 20:40; Rev 14:1   God and Christ both have absolutely no interest in earthly wealth, investments, or buildings that thrive in Satan’s world. Matt 6:19-21; Acts 17:24,25; Phil 3:19; Col 3:2  His only “investments” are those members of Christ’s Body; where His Holy Spirit dwells, as well as the hearts of those seeking pure Truth through His Son.  John 14:23

I would hope we are speaking of the authority of God and Christ, and not that of the governing body.  For them to say that God is responsible at any point in time, for Watchtower’s wayward teachings is an absolute lie; yet, they are guilty of doing so.  Did they let the real authority of the Bible speak, or was it from their own desires?  Ezek 13:3  JW have been disfellowshipped for bringing this to the attention of the elders.   

Is it possible for any JW to read scriptures in support of this truth, and take it into their heart?  Or, is the plentiful “fruit” of false teachers more desirable to “eat”?  It is easy to say one relies on the authority of the Bible; JWs are convinced they do, forgetting all the “bible-based” discarded books and teachings that are no longer in use. 

“God’s anger is revealed from heaven against every ungodly and immoral thing people do as they try to suppress the truth by their immoral living. 

They knew God but did not praise and thank him for being God. Instead, their thoughts were pointless, and their misguided minds were plunged into darkness. ²² While claiming to be wise, they became fools.

These people have exchanged God’s truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen!  Rom 1:18,21,25

JWs, you believe you are out of the woods and have left false teachings behind; but you can’t see the forest for the trees.  These particular “trees”/teachers that you seek shelter under, waiting for their spiritual “food” to drop, have an axe waiting at the base of their bitter roots, to chop them down.  Jer 23:15; Matt 3:7-10; Heb 12:14-17;Rev 8:10-11; Rev 19:20

 

The best text related to the issue being discussed is the data provided by Jesus himself, at Matthew 13:24-30 and 36-43, which starts off as follows:

"Jesus told them another parable: "The Kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner's servants came to him and said, "Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?" "An enemy did this", he replied. The servants asked him, "Do you want us to go and pull them up?" "No", he answered, "because while you are pulling the weeds, you root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." (NIV)

Not wanting to allow for a variety of future interpretations of the above parable, Jesus himself, explained it in 13:36-43 as follows: "Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field". He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world [kosmos], and the good seed stands for the sons of the Kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his Kingdom everything that causes sin, and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

Jesus explains that while he was on earth he, the "Son of Man", spread a specific message, "the seed of wheat", that resulted eventually in the formation of a body of original followers and/or co-workers, "the wheat". However, when his co-workers, the faithful apostles and their principal associates died, or "went to sleep" [death is compared to a type of sleep in over 700 places in the Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures], an enemy, the Devil, over-sowed the body of believers with others, "the weeds", who were not of the same ilk as the original community once was – resulting in a contamination, a negative infusion that proved to compromise that which was established by Jesus and his first followers.

As noted in the parable, it is only during "the end of the age", the time of the end, the last days, in which one would see a harvesting that would bring together once again the wheat, but now separate from the weeds – indeed, the call made at Revelation 18:4, for his people, to get out.

Interestingly, the koine Greek word translated as "weeds" is "zizanion" which is a kind of darnel, the bearded type, which significantly resembles wheat in "appearance", but only in appearance [Matthew 7:15-23] – a degenerate wheat.

Also interesting regarding zizanion, it is not until the time approaching harvest, that the zizanion becomes visible – and it does so because unlike wheat, it puts forth little black seeds at maturity, which become visible, and if eaten, can be deadly. It is the fruit, or "seeds" of this plant, which make it distinguishable from the true wheat.

The reason why Jesus chose this particular plant by word becomes obvious - the zizanion represented individuals "planted" by the oversower into the developing Christian institution. Who would claim to be genuine Christians, genuine "wheat". According to the parable, this poisoned and contaminated version of "Christianity" would be allowed to persist until the time of the end at which time a separating would transpire, i.e., the restoration.

You must be a disfellowshipped person, HUH ? You should be supremely happy - you are now on the outside looking in so  stop pressing your nose against our windows.

Did you want followers? All those who choose to follow a Judas goat will be led to the slaughter.

Sheep, on the other hand, hear the voice of the Fine Shepherd calling their name. John 10:3 "The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

So you were preaching false doctrine in the kingdom hall to Jehovah's Witnesses? Not a very smart move. Then you thought it appropriate to exhibit your mad ravings to the elders and were disfellowshipped for being an apostate. I can't imagine why? Of course apostates are not anything new, the apostle Paul was quite eloquent in his description of those in the first century.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

I have a feeling you are not very happy any place you plant yourself, but look at it this way - you weren't happy with us and we were not happy with you.

Emperor Constantine - what we should know about him and his empire?

The general attitude that Roman emperors of the third and fourth centuries had toward religion is referenced in the book Istoria tou Ellinikou Ethnous (History of the Greek Nation) which states: “Even when those who occupied the imperial throne did not have such profoundly religious dispositions, surrendering to the mood of the era, they found it necessary to give religion precedence within the framework of their political schemes, to lend at least a religious flavor to their actions.”

What schemes could possibly help him politically? It seems that religion could possibly help solidify his position, yes, he needed “divine” patronage, which could not be provided by the fading Roman gods.

The empire, including its religion and other institutions, was in decline, and something new and invigorating was needed to reconsolidate it. The encyclopedia Hidria says: “Constantine was especially interested in Christianity because it backed up not only his victory but also the reorganization of his empire. The Christian churches that existed everywhere became his political support. . . . He surrounded himself with the great prelates of the times . . . , and he requested that they keep their unity intact.”

By the time of Constantine the Christian church had already become deeply corrupted and apostatized from the true religion. Constantine saw how this apostate church could be effectively utilized as a revitalizing and uniting force to serve his grand scheme for imperial domination.

He adopted the foundations of apostate Christianity to gain support in furthering his own political ends, he decided to unify the people under one “catholic,” or universal, religion. Pagan customs and celebrations were given “Christian” names. And “Christian” clergymen were given the status, salary, and influential clout of pagan priests.

Historian Paul Johnson states this in regard to Constantine: “One of his main reasons for tolerating Christianity may have been that it gave himself and the State the opportunity to control the Church’s policy on orthodoxy and the treatment of heterodoxy.”

Johnson also notes: “Constantine never abandoned sun-worship and kept the sun on his coins.” The Catholic Encyclopedia observes: “Constantine showed equal favour to both religions. As pontifex maximus he watched over the heathen worship and protected its rights.”

“Constantine never became a Christian,” states the encyclopedia Hidria, adding: “Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote his biography, says that he became a Christian in the last moments of his life. This doesn’t hold water, as the day before, [Constantine] had made a sacrifice to Zeus because he also had the title Pontifex Maximus.”

It seems Constantine is not what or who you thought him to be and that is but a tip of the iceberg showing above the water.
The Bible and in particular, The Christian Greek Scriptures were quite accurate in their foretelling that following the apostolic era, that the early church would suffer an institutional apostasy, which would last until the "last days", during which time a restoration of the original model, would unfold.

In my opinion, the best text related to this issue was the data provided by Jesus himself, at Matthew 13:24-30 and 36-43, which starts off as follows:

"Jesus told them another parable: "The Kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner's servants came to him and said, "Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?" "An enemy did this", he replied. The servants asked him, "Do you want us to go and pull them up?" "No", he answered, "because while you are pulling the weeds, you root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." (NIV)

Not wanting to allow for a variety of future interpretations of the above parable, Jesus himself, explained it in 13:36-43 as follows: "Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field". He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world [kosmos], and the good seed stands for the sons of the Kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his Kingdom everything that causes sin, and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

Jesus explains that while he was on earth he, the "Son of Man", spread a specific message, "the seed of wheat", that resulted eventually in the formation of a body of original followers and/or co-workers, "the wheat". However, when his co-workers, the faithful apostles and their principal associates died, or "went to sleep" [death is compared to a type of sleep in over 700 places in the Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures], an enemy, the Devil, over-sowed the body of believers with others, "the weeds", who were not of the same ilk as the original community once was – resulting in a contamination, a negative infusion that proved to compromise that which was established by Jesus and his first followers.

As noted in the parable, it is only during "the end of the age", the time of the end, the last days, in which one would see a harvesting that would bring together once again the wheat, but now separate from the weeds – indeed, the call made at Revelation 18:4, for his people, to get out.

Interestingly, the koine Greek word translated as "weeds" is "zizanion" which is a kind of darnel, the bearded type, which significantly resembles wheat in "appearance", but only in appearance [Matthew 7:15-23] – a degenerate wheat.

Also interesting regarding zizanion, it is not until the time approaching harvest, that the zizanion becomes visible – and it does so because unlike wheat, it puts forth little black seeds at maturity, which become visible, and if eaten, can be deadly. It is the fruit, or "seeds" of this plant, which make it distinguishable from the true wheat.

The reason why Jesus chose this particular plant by word becomes obvious - the zizanion represented individuals "planted" by the oversower into the developing Christian institution. Who would claim to be genuine Christians, genuine "wheat". According to the parable, this poisoned and contaminated version of "Christianity" would be allowed to persist until the time of the end at which time a separating would transpire, i.e., the restoration.

Hebrews 11.1 reads, "Estin de pistis elpizomenôn hupostasis pragmatôn elenchos ou blepomenôn: en tautêi gar emarturêthêsan hoi presbuteroi"

Pistis means to trust or a trust, often meaning position of trust such as a trustee, a pledge or act of good faith, a guarantee given, an entrustment, often used in the Greek commercial world to account one credit [e.g., tosouton chrematon esti tini para tisi - eis pistin didonai - he has credit for so much money with them] - the Hebrew noun corresponding to emunah, rendered pistis, in the Septuagint - from the root aman means firm, something that is supported or secure - as used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a "secure" place - the Hebrew emunah is a firm action - hence the specific examples given in Hebrews 11 of what faith "is". This idea of support for the word emunah can be seen in Exodus 17:12, "But Moses' hands grew weary; so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat upon it, and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side; so his hands were steady (emunah) until the going down of the sun." It is the support/emunah of Aaron and Hur that held of Moses' arms, not the support/emunah of Moses - "I have faith in God", should be more accurately saying according to Hebrew application, "I will do what I can to support God".

Elpizomenôn [form of elpizô] which refers to one's expectations, looking forward to something, even to look for in wait for that which you know exists.

Hupostasis refers to that which settles at the bottom, the sediment [even the lower part of a crenellated wall], the substantial nature of a thiing, its true foundation, its true support upon immovable confidence can be placed, its true purpose, its underlying plan - used quite often in antiquities in specific reference to what we would call today, a title deed - which is the underlying and foundational official document for property ownership.

Pragmatôn [from pragma] meaning that which has been done, an act, or a deed.

Eenchos - a cross examining, or testing.

Bepomenôn [from blepô] meaning to see, to have the power of sight.

Earturêthêsan [aortist passive form of martureo] meaning to be a witness, the bear witness, give evidence, or bear testimony.

Pesbuteroi [from presbus], lierally, an old man, or elderly one.

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities [foundational] though not beheld - for by means of this the men of old times had witness borne to them.

In other words, as stated in 11:3, by faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear.

Hebrews 11:4-40 then proceeds to provide many examples of pistis.

"Certain of what we do not see" - no, certain of the foundational things not now seen on the immediate surface for the reality of them must be observed through examination and testing of the true foundation underlying them.

A person invoking “faith” could be compared to a person who steps from the shore of a murky lake onto a lily pad but his weight does not collapse the pad and so he does not fall into the water – he performed this act not in a blind belief [a trust with no underlying basis] that a “miracle” would be the cause for his weight not collapsing the lily pad – but because he was able to observe that the pad rested upon a column of concrete lying under the waters surface – and he long ago tested the reality of that observation and was provided comprehension through examination that what he observed was real – and so he knew, or “came to know” that when he left the solid ground to step on the lily pad, that it would hold his weight, and he would not fall into the water. He had an assured expectation of that which he longed or hoped for because of the evident demonstration of realities [foundational] though not beheld from simply the surface of the murky water which appeared to present only a lily pad which floated upon water – he therefore, had witness borne to him.

HMMMM!!

"The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid will fare badly." Proverbs 13:20

"Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough?"  1 Corinthians 5:6

On 6/17/2018 at 10:41 AM, Jack Ryan said:

bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.

We are not following worldly advice, we let the Scripture, as an unfailing prophetic book, be the guide.

Galatians 1:6  "I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

Worship
        שׁחה         schacah

In our modern western culture worship is an action directed toward Elohiym and Elohiym alone. But this is not the case in the Hebrew Bible. The word shahhah is a common Hebrew verb meaning to prostrate oneself before another in respect, or simply, obeisance. We see Moses doing this to his father-in-law in Exodus 18:7. From a Hebraic perspective obeisance is the act of getting down on ones knees and placing the face down on the ground before another worthy of respect.
scha-cah         Bend Down (verb)         7812         To pay homage to another one by bowing low or getting on the knees with the face to the ground.

The English word obeisance is a valid translation for the Hebrew schacah and the koine Greek cognate proskuneo?

obeisance [oh-bay-sanss] : a bow or curtsy showing this attitude [Old French obéissant obeying]; an attitude of respect or humble obedience; a gesture of respect, as a bow; homage or an act of homage; a gesture or movement of the body, such as a curtsy, that expresses deference or homage; an attitude of deference or homage [collectively taken from Amercian Standard, Collins Basic English, and Ologies, etc]

The above is quite consistent with the Hebrew schacah, and the koine Greek cognate proskuneo - It means bow down or lie down in recognition of higher authority whether that be by Jacob toward Esau, Judah's brothers toward Judah, Nebuchadnezzar toward Daniel, malak toward Jesus whom was raised up in authority over the malak, and all things toward Jehovah - including Jesus bowing down to his god and father, Jehovah [Matthew 4:10; John 20:17, et al]. That is all it has ever meant - to bow down in recognition of relative higher authority. Could be your dog toward another dog,or another dog toward your dog, or even your dog toward you when you come home.

Proskuneo toward Jesus has always been acceptable. Proskuneo toward Jesus as or in the place of Jehovah is defined as blasphemy in both the Hebrew and Greek texts.

Proskuneo toward Jesus as or in the place of Jehovah is defined as blasphemy in both the Hebrew and Greek texts

"Worship" is an English word, and at best, has a strained abstract association with schacah - strained particularly far if one presumes that it is indicative of use in identification of Jehovah [as is the common modern Christian theory brought forth, that if the malak schacah Jesus this means Jesus = Jehovah].

That logic and reasoning, however, are shown flawed, as such logic and reasoning would then extend to present Esau as Jehovah, and Abraham's father in-law and the Canaanites as = to Jehovah as well - when in fact there is nothing in the word itself which meant the object of schacah as identification of Jehovah himself. A True and accurate translation will consistently employ the abstract sense of the English word "worship" in translating both the Hebrew and the Greek in harmony with the directive rendered in Deuteronomy.

Is this theological bias? You bet. It is however, biblically reflected and established theological bias [bowing to men does not necessarily indicate an English equivalent to worship, but biblically, throughout, bowing down to Jehovah can be supported in the more abstract sense of "worship"] - as the Tanakh establishes such bias, there are translations however, which adhere to the Tanakh written directive - only Jehovah is worshiped, all others are paid deep respect and homage - the act is the same, the object is quite differently presented biblically.

It is also out of theological bias from which so many employ the same translational approach, but add certain individual humans to switch from "bow down" to "worship" - such as Jesus wherein many late period Christian organizations raised Jesus to the level of Jehovah. Both approaches demonstrate theological bias, but one has support of the remainder of the biblical texts, and the other, the later especially, does not.

Original Word Word Origin

proskuneÑw from (4314) and a probable derivative of (2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)

Definition
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Possibly fake, but even if it is, it recreates real experiences children have had with teachers.

We've all been there and done that. Most Witnesses have come from a false religious background. I came from a Roman Catholic background and had aspirations of becoming a nun. I associated with nuns after school, cleaned the classrooms and sang in the choir, so my background was fully vested in the teachings of the Trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, purgatory, limbo, Jesus was Catholic, the infallibility of the Pope - he was god on earth.

But a life changing experience happened one day, a man came to our door and began to show my mother scriptures proving his point on the areas they discussed. My mother, a strong person who also had deep respect for the Bible listened and in that discussion something touched her heart.

The young man had his mother revisit my mother and discussed what had previously been initiated by her son. Within the same time frame a Seventh Day Adventist was visiting my mother voicing her version of scripture and offering a Bible study. My mother, in order to make her decision on which one to choose, asked each one to explain what the Sabbath meant and should it still be enforced as in the Law.

She listened and looked up Scripture and there was no comparison in teaching, she was confident that Jehovah's Witness had the TRUTH of the matter. She began to study the Bible and was baptized in 1952. My mother began to speak about the Bible to her siblings (who were all different religions and scattered around the U.S.) they began to study the Bible and were baptized at different times and places.(4 brothers, 2 sisters and her father and her three children)

So we've been there and indoctrinated in a variety of different religions before a selfless individual came to our door in obedience to Jesus command at Matthew 19:28,29. Yes, that Good News is being preached in 239 Lands and Islands and in over 900 languages - in over two hundred thousand congregations worldwide.

The noise that you hear on the internet cannot drown out the preaching of the Good News and the gathering of the sheep. Jesus said: John 10:3" But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

 

Apostates and other opposers are very busy in these days and the scripture tells us why Ezekiel 29:4 " And I will put hooks in your jaws and cause the fish of your Nile canals to cling to your scales. And I will bring you up out of the midst of your Nile canals and all the fish of your Nile canals that cling to your very scales. 5 And I will abandon you to the wilderness, you and all the fish of your Nile canals. Upon the surface of the field you will fall. You will not be gathered up nor be collected together. To the wild beasts of the earth and to the flying creatures of the heavens I will give you for food. 6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt will have to know that I am Jehovah,"

 

Yes Indeed! Jehovah has put the hooks in the jaws of Satan and his demonic cohorts and they cannot turn back and as Ezekiel's prophecy makes clear, it is for one reason - identify and destroy.

 

As the apostle Paul points out at 2Corinthians 4: 3 "If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

 

 

 

 

On 6/30/2016 at 7:28 PM, Queen Esther said:

So  nice,  when  its  really  true,  YES  ?

Photoshopped. The real photo can be found on the internet. 

On 7/8/2018 at 3:39 PM, Jack Ryan said:

Surely a university didn’t randomly approach her and give her a scholarship? ?

This week's WT-study:

The Watchtower - April 2018 - "Young People, Are You Focused on Spiritual Goals?"

Watchtower is trying to influence those who might be thinking about a university level education to drop the idea, based on simplistic and anecdotal information

First, lawyers are usually not talking to bank staff - the lawyer's assistant is.

Second, what lawyer ever says: "I'm so unhappy," especially to some random person at a bank.

That doesn't invalidate the reality that just because one person noticed that some of the millions of people who followed the career path are unhappy, does not mean that it is wrong to follow that career path or that anyone who does will be unhappy. Flawed reasoning at its worst. Notice I did not say logic, because there is no logic to their reasoning.

Who said she applied for a scholarship? Teachers always make that suggestion to bright students but the decision belongs to the student and this student declined the offer. 

35 minutes ago, Nicole said:

No need to repeat, ... wow they edited only that part... and see the whole post repeats the same bad words that were left... No, I leave this thread. I cannot lower myself. I have moral, values and can not dialogue or participate of this vulgarity. Authority and respect have to be gained. And then they complain when are not being respected. 

Sadly in this life you get what you give...

 

On 7/8/2018 at 3:30 PM, Jack Ryan said:

This week's WT-study:

The Watchtower - April 2018 - "Young People, Are You Focused on Spiritual Goals?"

18 No one remains young for long. Young people quickly progress to adulthood. Sad to say, as adults, many then regret having followed the wrong goals when they were young or, just as frustrating, having had no goals at all. But youths who today keep focused on theocratic goals will well into adulthood be deeply satisfied with the choices they made. This is the case with Mirjana, who as a teenager was very talented at sports. She was asked to take part in the Winter Olympic Games but chose instead to take up the full-time ministry. Over 30 years later, Mirjana is still in full-time service, together with her husband. She explains: “Fame, honor, power, and riches are transitory and lowly goals in life. Serving God and trying to contribute in some small way to helping people spiritually are truly noble and lasting goals.”

The Winter Olympics? The f***ing Winter Olympics.

So you're telling me this lady was one of the best athletes in her nation, good enough to go to the Olympic fucking Games, a level of skill which already requires incredible dedication to reach. Which she passed on to go be a regular pioneer instead.

And this was back in the 80s since it's been over 30 years. Well sister, you passed on a rare, once in a lifetime opportunity to do something only a handful of people get a chance to, something which apparently you had already been training to do, in order to do something you could have started the next fucking year.

But I mean the end was probably so close, wasn't it? I'm sure you'll get extra Paradise for banging on people's doors to annoy them at 9:40am instead of the 15-ish months you'd have spent training doing a thing you apparently love to compete at Lake Placid or wherever.

The f***ing Olympics, bullshit.

Why put off till tomorrow what can be done today? Life, in this system, is transient so why use it to glorify yourself or country when these things are temporary. Her priorities changed when she began to study the Bible. She chose the best life ever, the life with everlasting benefits. 

It is difficult for someone self-absorbed to ever get the sense of that concept ( service to God and service to others). A force of life and attitude richly blessed and satisfying.