Thinking

On 6/23/2021 at 2:15 AM, JW Insider said:

Russell's references to apologies and the topic of apologies

In the last few days, I have at least skimmed and mostly re-read every article in the WT that referred to one of Barbour's and Russell's chronology and dates. I have done the same with almost every paragraph in his books, and most of his Sermons. But I have also "cheated" by using a single text-searchable file containing every article of every Watch Tower written under Russell's supervision. (1879-1916). I have another one for his books. I made use of it to search for every form of the word apology, apologized, apologies, regret(s), regretted, error(s), err(ed)(ing), mistake(s)(n), (a)shame(d), wrong(s)(ly), stumble(s)(d), revise(s)(d), retract(ion)(s)(ed), etc., etc., etc.

This exercise surprised me in that some of those word groups (like, "mistake*") are used over 1,000 times, which could give someone the wrong impression that "mistakes" were the primary subject of the magazine.

It also helped that I still have my notebooks that I kept from work I did at Bethel on the topic of Russell's chronology and other doctrines. And I usually re-read parts of Russell's original sources before making any comment about Russell on the forum, so that much of the information I have been looking at had already been reviewed in the last couple of years. (But that's not saying much for a 64-year-old memory of someone who also tends to rush, and skim and skip through any number of subjects in a day.)

When Russell used any of those forms or synonyms for "apology" it was usually about others. Of course, there also a few apologies for not answering letters sooner, or a delay in publishing a promised tract, article, or book. But literally hundreds of cases are in the published letters to Russell where the writer apologizes for not doing more, not being able send more money, or for having doubted Russell on a specific topic, or "uncharitable thoughts" toward Russell, or having once rejected his books and teachings. Similarly, Russell often quoted other religious leaders who apologized for incorrect views, or not being able to defend their views very well. There are so many of these, that someone (else) could create a kind of psychological study, I'm sure.

And several other types of exceptions were in the context that God's true servants don't have to apologize, because they are workmen with nothing to be ashamed of.  There are a surprising number of phrases against apologies which say something like:

• God doesn't have to apologize and neither do his ambassadors, his true servants . . . [WT p.R921]
• This is meat in due season for the household of faith and I won't apologize for it.
• "We need offer no apology for the interest which we feel in this grand subject, which is the center upon which all the testimony of divine grace, through all the holy prophets, is focused. Rather do they need to apologize who, knowing that the second coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead hold the most important places in the Scriptures." [WT p.R2359, repeated on p.R2973]

Russell also gave more experiences than I had remembered where others had slandered him or disagreed with his handling of a matter. In several of these Russell added, in his (and their) defense, that the person later apologized to him. Russell also accused more than one person of slander and asked for an apology.

But to the point, Russell many times correctly published that any Christian who had said or done anything wrong should always apologize to the person wronged, at least in private. This is consistent throughout his writings from 1879 to 1916. Here's an example published from one of the first issues in 1879:

"I wonder who among those who are making this new application, and say they have as much confidence in it as in any part of the application, will be honorable enough to confess as publicly as the former application was made that they were mistaken? "We thought that was light, we thought the Lord led us into it, but we were mistaken, and it was all darkness." Certainly if one position is light the other must be darkness. Does the Lord lead his people in opposite directions? Would it not be wise to be less dogmatic, and less severe with those who cannot see as we do? We may all safely learn a lesson from this sad affair. Those who have advanced light can afford to be patient." [WT, October 1879 p.R40]

[In the above case the article is about how others should apologize. The article below is the general correct counsel for all.]

"We understand that it is the Lord's will respecting us that we should carefully scrutinize our thoughts, words and actions. If we find that we have injured another with our tongue or in any manner, we should go to that person, and to any to whom we have spoken, and make it right, make proper apologies, putting a penalty upon ourselves --a penalty that we shall not forget. If the penalty requires considerable humility, so much the better. If we neglect to punish ourselves, this would show that we are not in the proper condition; and the best thing the Lord could do for us would be to give us a severe chastisement." WT, p. R5519

Keep looking ..your bound to find it eventually …

On 6/23/2021 at 3:52 PM, Pudgy said:

It is my understanding, that from all the descriptions, straight from the Bible, that WHATEVER "Gog of Magog" is prophetically ... it has not happened yet.

I have a great deal of real, solid, palpable peace since I stopped believing ANYBODY knows the answers, as it seems clear they are trying to upset me, and consolidate their authority by trying to scare everybody, pretending to have exclusive answers .... which so far ... have been wrong 100% of the time.

.... typically, that pays very, very well.

When the events happen in reality as they are described in the Bible ... THEN ....  I will look back and see who was right, if any,  and only THEN will I become concerned more than just considering :Gog of Magog" a persistent catchy boogeyman "Buzz Word Phrase".

I could not do anything about it before.

I can't do anything about it in the present.

I won't be able to do anything about it in the future.

If I  was the Planet's foremost expert on "Gog of Magog" it would change nothing.

If I was totally unaware of even the phrase "Gog of Magog" it would change nothing.

I have more than enough REAL things that I MIGHT be able to do something about to occupy my thoughts.

.... and anyway, I strongly suspect that long before then, I will be .... safely .... dead.

.... and I strongly suspect You will be too.

 

 

I KNOW I will be ..

2 hours ago, Pudgy said:

My concerns are a lot simpler than yours ...

Since there is absolutely NOTHING I can do about it ... whether I had full "secret" insight and knowledge of everything concerning Gog of Magog, or was absolutely ignorant, and had never even heard the term .... I can quite safely and without any concern whatsoever, completely disregard it.

It makes for good mental health, a peaceful countenance and a tail wag or two.,

I think I will just geta big old bone out of the refrigerator and gnaw on it for awhile.

.... if I can figure out how to open the door.

When one understands  WHY things are the way they are…one then gets a certain peace ..that others who are spiritually   naked cannot…then we can go with ease and chew on the bone because we know these things Must  take place.

Im glad I know about it….at times I wish I didn’t….but then I would be sick with worry and in fear because of not knowing the way out…

This tribulation is less painful because we understand this….but hey…I’ll beat you to the fridge door….you can have the bone…I’ll have the drink 🍺 

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

Gen 1:29 -  Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

In this verse it would be possible to conclude how all Earth and ground are prepared for and, in fact giving food, not only for humans, but for animals too. Or, if we conclude how only Eden was filled with animals and first humans, then animals outside of Eden was starving and humans also. 

Some controversy or dilemma came from Genesis 2

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Here, report said how there is no shrub and plant. What, then, did the animals that were created thousands of years before humans eat at all? Reason for not existed shrub and plant was - missing of rain and no work from human hands. 

After, verses speaking about God who worked and planted ground of Eden, but rain was not needed as in first picture, because of streams and rivers which gave enough water for plants of all kind. Does this mean how streams and rivers inside Eden was sufficient for plants but not outside of Eden? Again, if so what have eaten all animals before Adam and Eve and before Eden? 

One thing is need to be take in consideration. After every creative day God said how every thing was "good". In this terminology, today we explain this as "perfect", without something that would missing. Animals were perfect, earth were perfect, the natural cycles were perfect. If God planted Eden and made it better and more beautiful than the rest of the planet Earth, does that mean that everything outside of Eden was “hell”? Why, when God says that all creation was "good" aka "perfect"?

You can live in the most beautiful of places that are still a hell hole because of the people that live there…the hell hole was what he would have made that place into  a emotional hell hole…full of fear and anxiety.

Jehovah made eden exquisite for Adam and Eve…they were then to go out and make the rest of the world such as he had given them…..they had to subdue it Gen 1:28….be fruitful and fill the earth and subdue it…..so there was work involved to make it such a paradise as Jehovah had given them,,,

we know he planted a special garden TOWARD THE EAST…that’s where he put the man whom he had formed Gen 2:8.

It is interesting about the east bit…Gen 3:23 says he was expelled from that garden…where all the blessings were…and into the land of sweat and hardwork and thistles…..they no longer had the blessings of favored rain and growth of plants etc….they were expelled out of the Eastern part of Eden…..they had rejected that gift from Jehovah.

we know they were expelled to a harsher land because of what Gen 3:17 says

and to Adam he said because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command YOU MUST NOT EAT FROM IT….CURSED is the ground on your account in Pain you will eat from its produce all the days of your life . It will grow thistles for you and you may eat the vegetation of the field and In The sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground …..

so yes Jehovah did make it lovely but even before they were put out of eden their job was to subdue the earth….great work to do because Jehovah’s blessings were with them…rain..good fruit trees and abundance of sweet water etc…but they lost his help….when exiled into a land without his blessings….

So Adam and eve along with Cain now lived in a harsher place….so up comes pudges question …Gen 4 :11..because Abels blood cried out from the earth….he banished Cain from that ground ( and now you are cursed in BANISHMENT FROM THE GROUND that has opened its mouth to receive your brothers blood from your hand,

The scriptures go on to say he had to leave the land he grew up in..and wander…and a FUGITIVE IN THE EARTH.

FUGITIVE…CAMBRIDGE ENGLISH DICTIONARY 

A person who is running away or hiding from the police or a dangerous situation….

This is why he was fearful…and worried about his future …..when it would become known by others…so he went to the land of Exile to the east of eden…Cain lived for over 700 years…lots of time to produce….some of those may have felt vindicated if they had killed him….imagining they would get some sort of blessing from Jehovah for it….who really knows..

King David’s son aspired to kill him and take over control of the kingship…why not one of cains descendants try the same thing and make out it was because of what he did to Abel…justifying his action?….who really knows….but there is no evidence in the Bible that others lived in that land he was exiled to…but if you find any I’d be interested..

But this story has a lot more meaning than any of us really understand…but then we get into types and anti types….

where ever Cain went…his personality and those of his descendants would have made that place into a hell hole to live….I certainly would not want them as my neighbors….

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 Font size 8 will be better for me to read  

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 Font size 8 will be better for me to read  

Sorry don’t know how that happened ???..I cannot get it bigger than this

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

Apologize, but i don't see how this is answer on question. Who are people you described as ..many ( yet to be born ) and who knows how many other brothers and sisters there were…? 

^{no need to apologize as we really don’t know…that’s just my understanding of it at this point….when we eventually find out the truth of the matter we may all be gob smacked  with the real facts …}

^{that question I had pondered on myself sometime ago…..so I’m open to having to change my mind…I’ve just never read an acceptable alternative….}

2 hours ago, xero said:

I don't know about brave, but I can say I did more on my knees praying than I've ever done. Coming here are reading what others have thought about and in many cases struggled (and still are struggling with in some cases - me too) w/their faith has likewise been grounding.

Made me think of this clip, just now....

 

Unfortunately..I get that …

On 3/12/2021 at 4:09 AM, Pudgy said:

....like Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

Not necessarily….the elements ha e been explained as the structural organizations wether they be governmental or health or financial….sometimes I wonder if the internet is exposing their darkness now ….so much we do t really know…

On 6/9/2021 at 2:34 AM, xero said:

FYI - If you ever have a loved one get hospitalized for some cardiac situation and the cardiologist prescribes colchicine to reduce fluid buildup around the pericardium, be aware of side effects the doctor's themselves may not be aware of.

Colchicine has been used for hundreds of years for gout and recently has been used to reduce cardiac inflammation. It may also do other things if the patient stays on it too long.

In my case my wife was on it for a few months, but in that time and unbeknownst to me because of her polymyalgia rheumatica situation I didn't realize it was damaging her nerves, her muscles and her brain. She lost thirty pounds in this time, couldn't eat, would vomit, became weak and incontinent, was in deep muscle pain and neither the rheumatologist nor the primary care physician made the connection. In fact it was ignored when I mentioned it to her primary care physician.

So rather than watch my wife die, I took her off the colchicine and to deal with the pain I gave her 500 mg of acetominophen w/600 mg of N-Acetyl-Cysteine (3 x a Day) (an amino acid given to counter the potential liver damage from the acetominophen). I suspected the colchicine was the culprit. True the symptoms didn't come on quickly, but colchicine can build up in a person's system. She couldn't sit up in bed, I had to help her get on and off the commode and wipe her. I had to shower her. She didn't know at times what day of the week it was.

After a week and a half off the colchicine, the muscle pain went away, but the extreme weakness and all the other things associated w/colchicine poisoning existed.  I googled and tried to pack in every possible supplement associated w/assisting people w/alzheimers or traumatic brain injury or nerve damage.

Alpha-GPC, CDP-choline, Co-Q10, NAD+, Vinpocetine, Phenylpiracetam, Noopept, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, L-Carnosine, Fish Oil, Sulbuitamine (just to list a few). I shelled all these and packed them into a protein shake (w/creatine, and hmb) and argued w/her to drink at least this once a day. I used red light therapy on her head as well.

It's three months now and she's back to better than normal. (Although as soon as she really started to improve dramatically, her hair started to fall out - apparently hair will go dormant under stress and when the stress is gone, it sheds....right now she has "zombie-hair" but we can see it's growing back in.

She's not taking everything that I packed into her shake every day now, but now I can actually leave the house w/o worry. Before this I couldn't leave 20 minutes w/o worrying that I'd find her on the bathroom floor.

 

Anyway, just know that no one is as interested in your health or the health of your loved ones as you are. You're ultimately responsible. Doctors aren't necessarily geniuses.

Huge respect to you….!!!!! What you did was very brave…..I agree with all that you said…thank goodness your wife has you …

21 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I have been, um, doggedly pursuing the answers to some questions, and I think I know the answers, but in the tradition of beating irrelevant trivia that really has no practical value to death, in fact, to a thin puree, I thought it might be a good idea to get some other peoples thoughts.

It's about Cain, Able, and the Land of Exile. (Genesis 4:*}

1.) When Cain was banished to the Land of Exile, who was it already there that he was GREATLY afraid would kill him?

2.) Was it an existing Land of Exile that he was banished to, or did it BECOME a Land of Exile after his arrival?

3.) Apparently Cain was afraid that wherever he roamed, there would be someone there to kill him, so was the Land of Exile like, say, the next County over, or did it extend all the way to, say Asia?

4. How does one man and one woman  immediately start building a City? (I would think a grass thatched single shelter would have been more appropriate, without tools.)

5.) Were the inhabitants of the Land of Exile inclined to kill Cain only, or anybody that inhabited Eden?

6.) And of course, the "standard" question .... Where did Cain get his wife?

1:..I’m guessing that watching his father and mother live a long life he knew his reputation would follow him where ever he went and I’m sure..many ( yet to be born ) and who knows how many other brothers and sisters there were…..would have not felt thankful for bringing them into a cursed situation….so he was thinking about his future…

2)  must have been even worse than where his parents were banished to???..I mean if he went there it would end up as the hell hole of the world.

3) all the way to OZ…hey anything outside of eden was exile….his exile must have been really bad….but considering today…maybye it was still better than a lot of the existing world as we know it…we will have to ask when all this is over…

4) who said they never had tools….who would have loved to have given them forbidden knowledge to wreck ruination and to start up HIS world wide society…and what was the definition of a city back then to what it is now….my town is called a city…which consists of just over ten thousand….LA is a city which I think consists of all of Australia’s population or pretty close….so what type of city did they build in their loooong life time….

5..nobody inhabited eden….they were All in exile of to different degrees it seems….Cain killing his brother shows a incredible flaw in the mans personality…..what chance for any off spring not to have this same flaw( or any others of that time period ) especially with the demons walking around like a lion ready to devour them all…😈…hellbent on directing them…☠️.it always amazes me how quickly such serious sins prevailed……poor Abel….poor mankind…

6..not sure I’d want to marry my brother even if he was perfect 🤮…but I would imagine a lot of years between them may have been the case…?…..?

On 4/11/2021 at 2:45 AM, JW Insider said:

Me too. As I see my parents getting older, I see that the Zoom meetings work for them better than the telephone connection which they have used on occasion in the past.

We used to have a KH in the suburb where I live and we consolidated with another KH two towns north of here. No travel problems because it's only an extra 3 miles, and we traveled more than a mile as it was. But the decision included two factors. We could sell our local Hall for more money and use it to upgrade the other Hall, which is now central to 5 congregations (although it hasn't been used for months). The other reason for the decision is that the "new" Hall provides better "advertising" on a highly traveled street. The old Hall was nicer looking, but out of the way.

I think this is an important factor. I've mentioned before that a local "evangelical" church that bought an old synagogue nearby has turned it into something like a mega-church that draws literally three hundred cars twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday, which has started up again these last two months bigger than when they stopped last year for Covid-19. I don't know if these are different services for the same "congregation" or for multiple "congregations" but I'm guessing the latter. It also serves as a large food and charity distribution center since Covid-19. This provides them with a lot of easy "advertising" and I bet that's a reason for part of their growth.

Giving up the KH would be nearly impossible to imagine, and as it is, I think an entire community of two or three suburban towns would wonder what happened to us if that Hall disappeared.

I’m expecting to lose it all.....and it will be a final testing of sorts for many of us.....somehow I’m thinking..rightly or wrongly? ...when it does all go...the visible structures of Jehovah’s witnesses...it has to some how represent...the scattering of the apostles..when Jesus was taken into custody and trial...and killed...

The most favored and trusted ..fled and were confused after his death...they actually went back to work fishing...not knowing what to do.

They did not cope with out his visible presence..even tho he had explained it to them.

How will we cope without a visible bricks and mortar..or if zoom also goes down?

Even Jesus himself cried out ...My God My God why have you forsaken me!!...he FELT it had gone on too long........in moments of anguish..will we as a people feel we have been tricked...will our faith and trust be tested when it all goes...and if he allows it all to go?

I am thinking that it also corresponds with the Israelites on leaving Egypt in organized safe military style escape.

When they were bought up against the sea..against the mountains...and hearing the chariots and horses of Egypt bearing down on them...in fear..and lack of trust In Jehovah..they felt they had been deceived...and cried out to Moses and ready to stone him for tricking them...will he allow the same situation come upon his modern day people in the last days?

Why not?....if he allowed his own son for a very brief time to think he had been a abandoned...why not us his motley crew of people.

We cannot look back and yearn for the days of KHs and skin on skin stuff....we cannot yearn for the leeks and onions and pots of meat...

We have been trained as a people..and every time one of us here took a stand against a pagan holiday such as Xmas or Valentine’s Day or whatever.....which blatantly is a form of idol worship to a pretend demon God.......we were in training for what is coming...he was getting us ready to take a even stronger stand that seems to be about to happen.

We must not be like Hezekiah who proudly showed of all his riches of gold etc...who put his faith in such...only to be punished by losing the lot...

Even the good Kings had wrong attitudes about such things... and he learned from that.

Havings said this I ask myself would I have been one that went into panic mode when my back was up against the mountains and wall of sea and hearing the thundering of horses bearing down on me and my family.....probably ......would I have been one that moaned about forty years of manna.....more than likely ....

I like to think....or hope....that now I have the scriptures and read their examples....and had more training than those Israelites after 400 years of captivity ...Well..I hope I do a bit better.....time will tell shortly I guess.

19 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Sorry to say, thinking. I have dealt with apostasy since Raymond Franz. I know exactly the "conduct" of people. JTR's humor has a "realism" in him that comes from the heart. This behavior is not unusual. Most of the time, people tend to find the autonomous, the internet really gives to an individual to express they're true nature. For a "witness" that has doubts will be the first to expose their discontent. That in itself, is putting their personal interest ahead of their true mission of putting the kingdom interest first, that Jesus spoke of. The Kingdom message by and large is unity. Just like in the Body of Christ. There needs to be unity in order to function as one. Christ church is built upon that foundation of unity. That is for the rest of us. Those two objectives form one union. Therefore, the Spirit of God is always present. 

That’s why scripture defines, different gifts. Those gifts are intertwined. That is something JOHN and WITNESS have a hard time accepting.

I once said, I do not hate anyone, nor would I. Whatever a person feels in their heart, ultimately, they have to justify themselves to God. 

The fact you refuse to see JTR as an apostate is an inner feeling for acknowledging his mistakes. In other words, you feel sorry for him. That's fine. However, under Bible consideration, there needs to be "repentance". JTR has demonstrated the opposite, since I've known him. That's a long time, that he hasn't shown "real" repentance. Neither has TTH, JWI, Anna, and a host of others.

For that reason, I advocate, this OPEN FORUM portion be "relabeled" with a warning. The Banner and heading itself is "deceptive". There is no spiritual brotherhood here, that can't be placed in the same category, regardless of anyone’s intentions. 

However, this is something that needs to happen, toward the end. Remember Jude 1:8-10 and Revelation 12:10. Even though, the accusation of the Watchtower slowly started with Pastor Russell, it became very apparent after 1914.

Thank you for the invitation to join the closed club. My presence is needed here, not there. We all have a mission in life. My calling was made clear decades ago. As a servant, I obey faithfully.

Example:

 

 

Unfortunately these sites and others such as e watchman...e JW ..and beroeans pickets...of which at some stages and many years I was a member of ...and of which I usually got disfellowshipped or banned from.

All start out ..promoting Jehovah’s people as Gods true people but in serious error...hence their web sites...and they also go on to promote their own understandings on certain issues..

The serious matter that happens with such places is that they are refusing and lacking trust in Jehovah to be able to correct, allow..and rule his people as he sees fit.

Thus they act in a presumptions manner trying to do what he has not done ( in their minds) and eventually they go on to claim JWs were never a people he used anyway etc etc.

yet many have had doubtful thoughts answered in a proper scriptural manner..thus they become trusting...and primed for future deceiving.

Jehovah is allowing these places to exist...as a winnowing...many have come to understand this...some unfortunately get caught up and deceived by these ones who themselves are deceived...they are not evil...but like Eve ....thoroughly deceived.

I also have read ray Franz...but it strengthened my faith that Jehovah does indeed use a faulty people...I read his second book and binned it half way thru as I could see what he was doing....much like in time such web sites you have named and I have been on do.

They promote their own understandings..(all seem to become anointed...).most feel they are needed to do this I guess..because they truly LACK TRUST that Jehovah does not see the errors and will fix them when he is ready.

The thing is...most of these are lovely people..nicer..kinder ...better in personality ..and deeds ..than myself....but this too is a trap in itself..

He USES faulty sinful men..men who make serious errors...such as Moses Jonah..King David..and yes even and more so theGB...to get his job done but to teach us and them...it is HE...and only HE..who achieves his desired plans...regardless of who he uses.

On line has always been a playground for the demons ...they are very very active on all sites...they are enticing To hurt and stumbling ones....but they will devour them off course...but not all are deceived..not all fall prey to them....

This has serious consequences as all witnesses need to learn...Moses did not make it into the promised land for a number of reason...Firstly he railed at the people for the being rebellious...of which he had no right to do nor was he commanded to say that...He forgot..THEY WERE JEHOVAHS PEOPLE...not his.......and then he hit the rock twice..in anger...expressing a leaning on his own understanding and a feeling and lack of trust in Jehovah that it needed it...( there is more to that hitting the rock twice which is very serious but I won’t enter into here ) Also he promoted himself and Aaron here in a presumptuous manner.

This is what happens on line ...ones who suddenly claim to be anointed ..and feel directed by this anointing  to correct or safely guide JWs to a real place of spiritual  security...thus a lack of faith that their God of Who they claim to worship can not do this .

Jehovah’s Witnesses get more hate and abuse on line than the Natzis ...some of it earned..some of it not..a lot of it directly from demons using certain types of personalities.......and unless you are prepared to understand how Jehovah deals with his people down thru time...and WHY...it will definitely stumble some....

You are right..this is not a Jehovah’s Witness site....and I’m giving you your just due in saying that....and there should be a warning as such for ones who come here...

Having said all of that...many go to such sites because of huge errors and pain they experience in certain congregations..

This must be acknowledged..and recognized ..some things that have been allowed is nothing short of ruthless and cruel.....but this has always been amongst his people..when certain kings ruled ruthlessly over his people...he allowed it...I now  view it as a testing for me ..

I also have seen great love and genuine care...of which tips the scales to the better degree.

Being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses means their really is a world bond like no Other  I can think of....if you travel overseas and bump into a brother or sister and it becomes known to both parties...their is a great exuberance of fellow feeling and love to a stranger...even for that short moment of pleasantry exchanges..there is a bond...and it’s undeniable..

One could physically feel it at our last assembly when all the songs were played at the end of the convention....at that time...all the errors and pain become a thing of the past...and we were just a motley lot of people try to bend our knees to Our Great Creator....and it was a glimpse of what it will be like in the New World ...

Lastly I would like to say...I do not believe that a real anointed one would ever go on line and sow seeds of doubt..and put any brothers and sisters life in danger  so as they may risk a spiritual death....nor would they be discreet in claiming to be one....

I have no issues with a chatty forum amongst brothers and sister and discussing subjects not openly discussed amongst us for whatever reasons....I think some...were once like that..and I enjoyed them ....but .then they seem to slowly morph into a hatred of anything to do with the watchtowers or JWs...or even using Jehovah’s name.

I don’t always agree with you Billy...but I do back you with renaming this site with a warning...because there are obvious apostates on here...but my view of apostasy is different to yours I think...but I know we would agree with the ones I’m thinking off....

On 3/30/2021 at 11:26 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

I couldn’t stand JTR when I first came across him. But as he yielded ever so slightly, and then substantially, before he crashed and burned over other issues, I came to like him.

In some ways, he was like you, only not hypocritical. He seems to have more or less behaved himself in whatever congregation he attended, but did not hide the fact that he had non-conforming views on many things. He acted ugly here, but less so than you. He certainly did not display abuse for individuals, as you routinely do. It is the overall organization he took issue with—bad, maybe, but not hypocritical.

I still miss him..I liked him...I would have loved working with him in a car group or on the doors...and he was NOT a proven apostate....and I’ll stick up for him because nobody knows his full story and no one here can read his heart ....Just for the record Billy I am an active witness and approved In Good standing and conducting Bible studies still....

At times I Unjoin this group because it doesn’t help me with my fruit ages of the spirit..so I cannot  respond impulsively......but when I’m mentioned I will respond.

How come Billy if you are a witnesses you are not in the closed group...please come there...and I agree..not everyone there would be a witness...but we can  not prove nor prove they are not...and I am very wary..which is a wise thing to be on line.

Sorry Tom this come up under you but I meant to answer Billy...

On 11/23/2020 at 1:49 PM, Isabella said:

 

Here’s another good one 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Then why do you come here?  You yourself say - have discipline..... discipline the mind!  Walk the talk buddy!  I know I am a Witness - but if I am not good enough to your standards,  go read the watchtower we studied today!

Arauna ..I think Sis we need to let this person have the last say...or we become like him....don’t waste your precious spiritual energy...I’m not sure what is going on here but it’s not healthy...it’s time to back away for the sake..not of those participating...but for sake of those who may be reading this and dismayed at how low we all have become...me included ...

none of this thread is dignified...or mature...

Jesus didn’t even look at Herod as he was so disgusted with him...

you know the old saying...If there is no wood,...there is no fire...I admire your tenacity...

5 hours ago, xero said:

I had to handle a case where we were getting ready to recommend a brother as an MS and some trouble popped up from some other congregation who got wind of what we were going to do. Apparently 15 years previously when he was 15 he was at some poorly supervised pool party and something may or may not have happened w/another couple of JW's 15 yr old daughter. But guess what? The police were called, and investigation was made, the society was notified and turns out neither the police, not anyone else thought there was anything going on which warranted further concern - save for these poor examples of JW's. In any case this bro wasn't in their cong and hadn't been for over a decade, yet somehow he was responsible for how their daughter turned out. (WTF?).

BUT, you actually have galactically stupid elders who don't know the difference between what the KNOW to be true and don't KNOW to be true. So I'm sitting in this meeting and this pin-head elder blusters "These are serious charges!" (against the bro being recommended)...And I counter "You know Jose...You are absolutely right. But not for the reasons you imagine. This is serious because if this family doesn't put a sock in it, they could be guilty of slander! This has already been looked at. It's a more than decade old event, he was a minor at the time, the police investigated, the society investigated....this is case closed. But the family spreading slander against this brother IS serious."

He looked at me with his barnyard animal expression one of surprise mixed with stubbornness until several other elders jumped in and agreed.

This is the thing people don't get about elders and humans. People can mean well and get it all wrong. But I couldn't let this brother get hammered and slandered because of this other weirdo JW family whose family were almost all out of control. (All that was on them. Not the congregation)

I’ve heard this story before....I’m trying to figure out on which forum and from whom?????

Aaaah...librarian....I so love Phil Hayworth  talks..some have been taken down and it was such a great loss..I have listened to this a few times and now will listen again....he has another fantastic one called.....ARE YOU  TIED TO JEHOVAH ...or something like that....it’s brilliant....I came into the truth on these types of talks.....much appreciated !!!!!! 

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Well, your correct in one aspect while wrong in another. That's the problem with witnesses trying to chime in on a subject, they fully don't understand. This can also be a cultural thing. Then, those kinds of witnesses distort the narrative even more when they agree with an ex-wetness erred perceptions.

Well I was loath to chime in on this subject I admit ...and it probably would have been wiser to not say a thing..and yes I broke  my own rule over this.

Because it declines into a emotional school yard cat fight... but you also do not fully understand either Billy....NONE..of us here do...not really.

But I know first hand of certain issues here in Australia..I watched all of the ARC..talked with victims and elders...know  of certain    cases...intimately ..so can speak from experience...

The way they were handled by elders and the Branch directions of the time..and how victims were handled...and the frustrations of elders and the victims.

I listen to witnesses who have got things a bit wrong...sometimes a lot wrong...and a lot right .

I listen to Ex JWs who have got some things right and some things wrong...

It is not as simple or straightforward forward as so many believe....it is not black and white

I have distorted nothing...I am just more balanced over this subject .than you

Agreeing with anEx Jw on certain matters  does not make one their Alia..it’s just acknowledging a fact that may be correct in a certain issue at a certain time.

as far as chiming in..we have discussed this before me with you actually...and that didn’t end very well either....you told me you were not my brother...so as I said...I am loath to enter such a discussion..it goes round and round in circles with insults thrown at each other....and everyone becomes like rabid dogs biting at each other and thinking it is okay because it is a forum...and thinking Jehovah is going to accept such behaviour and excuse us of it.....and I include myself in this as well.

I wish you well CC..I’m not to sure who you are...as I’m not to sure who anyone is here ...

As far as a culture thing...Jehovah’s laws are laws...I once had a elder say to me over a very serious matter.....” well it’s not how Australians are”....

no I thought...but it is how Jehovah is......

I won’t reply on this matter again....but I stand by my words and will not back off from them even tho I will remain silent...

Witnesses are allowed to disagree with each other..we are not robots....it does not make us apostates...or idiots...just people with differing views ...which may change at any given time..and also may not change.

I don’t always agree with Toms view..nor he with mine...but what a great conversation we would have in a car group..

You yourself have distorted facts..as have certain ex JWs....it’s a mess all around and it’s so hard to find ANY one Who can have a balanced view over it.

I do not speak out ignorance ..but deal with facts..everything else is a waste of time and effort..

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

As I said before -  JWs had to get by without proper government laws.  Now that governments were at last  taking their responsibility seriously,  to have an inquiry to see how they can close the loopholes in the laws. Now we can use this to improve the outcome of these matters. The ARC came way too late... there were many loopholes in the law.... same as in USA.

Arauna I agree with so much of what you say...but as a people we shouldn’t have needed the ARC..to do the right thing....that’s what some are arguing here.

And they are right....BUT..we have corrected  the error..even if it was forced on us....our policies have been updated..and this would never happen again...it will never be sorted in house or quietly .

we are under Jehovah’s Laws...and there are no loopholes with them...but he taught us...thru the ARC.

On 2/26/2021 at 10:55 AM, Anna said:

Love reading your experiences!

We have discussed this issue a number of times on here. Jehovah reads hearts.

Also, what about all those people who have never heard the good news? And since time does not stand still, there will always be those who have never heard, because people are being born and living through the stream of time, so people will not all be in exactly the same position when Armageddon comes. There will always be someone who may have accepted the truth had they learned it sooner, but then Armageddon came....will Jehovah say sorry, too late?....For sure he will not because he is a just and loving God. So when we say only baptized JWs will be saved, it cannot be true...

He will probably treat them like he did the thief on the stake next to him but the thing is he repented at the last moment...where as the other fellow didn’t ......so what happens to him....wouldn’t he be covered by Jesus ransom...?

17 hours ago, Anna said:

Habakkuk 1:2-3

How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, but you do not hear? How long must I ask for help from violence, but you do not intervene? Why do you make me witness wrongdoing? And why do you tolerate oppression? Why are destruction and violence before me? And why do quarreling and conflict abound?

We're all familiar with Habakkuk's plight and we can add our own sentiments; "how much longer do we have to watch people suffering because of the things he mentioned, but also because of disease, starvation, old age etc.". My mother in law is 90, and is in severe pain from arthritis every day. Two of my friends died a horrible painful death from cancer. Small children dying of cancer and other diseases... everywhere you look there is SO much anguish and suffering. We ask the same questions as Habakkuk did 2600 years ago.... and Jehovah has had to watch mankind's suffering since the inception of sin. I have to keep reminding myself that Jehovah is the wisest being in the universe, also just and kind. Only he knows the perfect time to step in. Then also if we compare a lifetime of suffering of 80 years or so, and then eternity of mental peace and happiness and physical health, the suffering then is short lived and pales into insignificance.

It's a little easier to bare things if you know they are temporary....

I’m guessing it will go so far as tho we may feel we have been deceived or tricked....or he has completely  forgotten us....

I hope not but I often wonder if we will be tested as Jesus was...

Mathew 27:46

My God My God why has thou forsaken me....

( how utterly terrifying to feel that ) and STILL REMAIN faithful to A God who you think has left you..

16 hours ago, Anna said:

Back to the topic of CSA

There is absolutely nothing one can do to control what members do in the privacy of their own homes, or other people's homes, regardless their status in the congregation.  Elder "oh so nice" at the KH could be touching Jane, his 6 year old daughter every night during bedtime story time. Ministerial servant "extra helpful" could be touching Tommy, his 12 year old Bible student, while conducting a Bible study with him at his home, with the unsuspecting single mother in the next room; grateful that she could approach a servant to help her with the fatherly task of educating her fatherless son. None of these things the congregation or JW org can be held responsible for. It would not stand up in court. This is why in the case of Candace Conti, for example, it was so important for the court to establish that she was molested during field service, because that was recognized as a church based activity, which the congregation could be held responsible for.

Years later, when Jane and Tommy have reached adulthood, they finally disclose their abuse. Not to the elders, but to the media. And later file a lawsuit. What is the congregation/JW org. supposed to do?

I am not saying the case of Jane and Tommy happens in all cases. Not at all. There are many various scenarios. But the case of Jane and Tommy are based on true stories that actually happened.
Then we have other cases where suspicions of a persons vile acts were reported while the victim was still a child (unfortunately that does not happen very often as children rarely disclose) and usually these cases are reported to the police by the parent. Often times the police don't do anything! If the parent only reports it to the congregation, then the elders have to use their judgement to verify the facts. This is the only time it's possible for the elders to screw up. They may not believe the child or think the child may be exaggerating especially if the perpetrator denies. The child may be saying the truth, and the perpetrator may be a liar. The case gets put on the back burner. A year later the perpetrator molest another child, who says nothing, then another child, who also says nothing...until we have several children who have been molested by the original perpetrator. Now THIS is BAD indeed. Years later one of the victims comes forward and takes the case to court. Now it looks as if we harbor pedophiles. But in fact it's because the elders screwed up, made a mistake in judgement, not because they believed the guy was really a pedophile, but because they did not believe he was a pedophile. Big difference. Bad mistake, no doubt about it.

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization but really, it is a problem with the organization's members (elders, servants, publishers) when they do bad things in secret. At the KH everyone can put on an act, but who you really are becomes manifest in private. The organization has no control there.  Sometimes, even with simple things, the congregation overseer's job is comparable to trying to herd cats. Trying to motivate people to cooperate is a nightmare sometimes. And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny.

How would you handle that?

The elders didn’t screw up Anna..it was the way things were done back then...their hands were tied....we have to acknowledge that...our policies have changed because of the ARC....

6 hours ago, xero said:

Thinking...what I often wonder is whether it's intentionally ambiguous to make us constantly try to solve the puzzle, and in trying we're forced into a spiritual pattern of reanalysis and humility as we realize how we know so much and yet so little and in knowing this we can see when people imagine themselves to be wiser than they actually are and for doing so not only realize this in ourselves but perhaps reconcile ourselves towards being a little less critical of the missteps of others as these have also tried and failed.

In the end those counted as meek aren't the ones who've solved all the puzzles.

Your exactly right brother....I often think as you just articulated..we know so much but really so little....Jehovah loves a seeker..a searcher of the scriptures...but that doesn’t mean the reward will be any different than one that’s is not quiet so interested in scriptures ..but has bowed their knee to their God Jehovah.

The things we may grasp a little earlier can be a stumbling stone..as Jesus was with the Pharisees...or it can develop in us a much admired and treasured thing...that is highly favoured by Jehovah...humility and grace in remembering where we came from..( I was sort of a heathen from the world ) I owe my life because of the witnessing work..organised by the then GB

I liken us as the same as the Israelites that were cornered at the Red Sea...Pharaoh bearing down and the mountains on one side the sea in the front ...

So where is this God Jehovah they all submitted to...nothing is turning out as promised...let’s stone Moses and Aaron in our fear or disappointment...

( and NO I do not liken Moses to the GB) 

BUT..ones perhaps with a little more faith..or insight ...bore up..and did not panic..or push ahead...now THAT is the type of faith he loves....mind you they were probably wetting themselves in fear whilst waiting for him to act.

We know so very little..even when we  say we know a lot!..( or think it) and besides....I remember where I came from🙂 I’m not sure if it is intentional as you think..perhaps it is...but it’s very important as to how we act with insights we may THINK we have....it’s there for all to search for.......but we often have to search so hard....we have to use the lamp..and bend our back...possibly in a uncomfortable position for a long time to find that spiritual gem or insight.

But how we handle that gem.  Shows our true personality...

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I've just started reading Revelation. This time I'm trying to concentrate on every word. 

An old, wise, Elder once said to me, "Every thing in the Bible is there for a reson. It's not just to take up space". 

Revelation chapter One. v5 & 6

To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— ⁶  and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

So this is to the Anointed ones.

v 7 & 8....  Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.  Yes, Amen.⁸  “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Now this confuses me a bit. Verse 7 is talking about Jesus. It says He is coming with the clouds. 

But verse 8 is talking about GOD, and it says 'and who is coming'.    

So, are they both coming ? If so how ?

Also verse 8 says, “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God" which is fully understandable as Almighty God has always existed and always will. 

But verse 17 says, "And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 

And this is Jesus speaking 

So God is the Alpha and the Omega, and Jesus is the First and the Last.  This will need some explaining. 

I've said that i understand the bit about God, but I'm not sure about the bit concerning Jesus

Jesus was of course God's First creation.....   But in what way is Jesus the Last ? 

I THINK..which doesn’t mean a lot...but hear goes..from what I’ve read..the Alpha and Omega can mean both Jesus and Jehovah...Jesus being the first creation of Jehovah and the last creation by him to be resurrected .

Its a title that they both can lay rightful ownership off...( obviously only after Jesus proved successful ) 

I have also come to the conclusion that no one can understand Revelation unless they really understand the Hebrew Scriptures ...the secrets or keys to understand revelation is in them.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

None. You do realize that the Terminator reference was to Alan, though, I trust.

No. All good points.

Sometimes, probably not often enough, I write out a comment and then sit on it for awhile, even to next day. If I still feel it good to go, I let fly. Sometimes I think the remark is better canned or put elsewhere.

Good advice for me to follow too.....