Thinking

On 8/19/2020 at 5:20 AM, Anna said:

I suppose this can be a lesson for all of us, especially the likes of John Butler (pity he isn't around anymore). As an experiment, I try to think of someone I know well and am really close to. They have always been a loyal friend, always there for me. Then I imagine another adult person I know, tell me my friend did something bad to them when they were a child. How would you feel?
It's easy for us to judge elders for mishandling matters and say why didn't they do this or that. Sometimes it must be so difficult to comprehend the whole situation, especially if we know the person well and he is a "really nice guy". It's someones word against an other's, because of course there are rarely any witnesses. It must be especially difficult when it is an adult survivor that comes forward years later, a long time after the alleged crime . Who do you believe? Surely those must be repressed memories that are somehow skewed. They must have misunderstood, got it all wrong. Surely brother "really nice guy" wouldn't do anything like that!
The fact is, people who do these things usually ARE "really nice people".
A lot of different factors come into play when an accusation is made against someone, including not wanting to be wrong. What if the brother IS actually innocent, and we drag his life through the mud? He has a wife and children, and is that really nice guy.
It's easy for us, behind our computer screens, to shout; hang him!

But what are we doing now? I don't see anyone shouting hang JTR. No, we are all sad over the situation. But we know he has done these things because he has been convicted, there must have been proof. Now imagine there is no proof. Just an accusation, and not against a person on a forum (whom we don't really know) but against someone we know personally, someone who is a "really nice guy".....now try and handle that.

I know a number of people who have been convicted and later proved to be innocent...I don’t know what is going on here...and I’m not going to comment on this because I don’t have proof of anything....it seems he has yet to go to trial???....

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@JW Insider Thank you but we come back to this 1914 again.

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914,  ******* 

 w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

But, Quote @Anna

 

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).

The plot thickens. 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

But is it out of harmony with other scriptures ? As Anna mentions above it makes three types of appearances not two. 

What Bible evidence is there that 'proves' Jesus was 'enthroned' in 1914 ? And was this a second 'appearance' ?  If so then it seems Anna has a point about there being three appearances. 

My mind seriously boggles. At 70 years old it's all too much for me. 

Take heart you are not alone with your boggled mind.....Jehovah’s people have never got it all right at any given time he has had a people...why expect it of today?

Your/our confusion is just a testing of our faith...so don’t feel bad about it...

On 6/25/2020 at 10:48 PM, Doryseeker said:

Here in East London, South Africa a few years ago a man who was very religious had slight mental problem. The church he belonged to could either not assist, or he did not properly state his problems. In desperation he went to the East London zoo, climbed over the wall of the lion enclosure, walked up to the resting lions and said "Let the battle begin. "The lions killed him." I will not disclose his name, but he may have lived at the same old age home where I am, because I found his Bible. The owner of the old age allowed me to have the Bible

Thank you brother for your posts....and I hope you are coping okay in your old age home and they are treating you well.

wow to think you are on line and speaking here and still encouraging others is so very much appreciated...I wish I could sit and have coffee with you...I deeply appreciate ones like you..so very very encouraging...keep well brother...and may we meet one day in that New World ....

On 6/26/2020 at 6:56 AM, Anna said:

Continued....

So going back to the brother who asked the question; "how we would feel if suddenly Jehovah stopped existing". I wonder how we would feel if suddenly if the GB stopped existing? Would we fall apart?

Yes, well said. 

Yes. And funny you mentioned too many chiefs and not enough Indians, I was going to mention that very phrase, lol. Actually, I was going to say you can't have more chiefs than Indians. Same thing.

Going back to the fear of apostates, it makes me wonder why they (the GB) are so afraid, to the point of putting the fear of God in you if you so much as glance at something apostate related. That has always bothered me a bit. Are they afraid that their influence be undermined? That people will lose trust in them? If that is so, where then does the trust in Jehovah figure? Are we not supposed to trust Jehovah more than any man? Does it not reveal that our trust may lie more in the GB than Jehovah? Recently, in one of the study articles it was mentioned that idolizing someone (the reference was to the GB) could become a stumbling block if that someone falls away. Is it then not better to see the "contrasting view" because that might help us be more realistically grounded. And as JWI alluded (I think it was JWI) why try and "hide" something unless we are ashamed of it (meaning the GB) and why not be candid and transparent? Why have all this "secret" stuff for the apostates to dig up and wave around? Stuff that the GB does not want us to read? Do they think our faith in Jehovah is so fragile?

When you believe in God, then this inevitably leads to questions about his purpose for us and the meaning of life. This in turn leads to an analysis of writings which claim to explain that. This leads to admitting that the Bible has the most intelligent explanation, and that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who adhere to all of it despite some personal sacrifice on their part.
When you do not accept there is a God, like Amber, all that is no longer relevant.
Of course those who no longer believe there is a God fall back on so called "scientific proof" . And yes. There are things that don't quite add up about the timeline of the flood, the fossil record, and the age of man, etc. but despite that, even JTR, who believes in evolution (with a helping hand from Jehovah) is still with us.

For any intelligent person there is more proof of the existence of God than there isn't. Those who deny the existence of God do it more for personal reasons than because of science. When it comes down to the crunch, in the end, things are always personal, even if people try to imply some other noble cause or scientific enlightenment, or apostate reasoning. So what are the GB so afraid of?

 

I think two reasons...one for protection of the sheep...and one for their own protection.

True apostates are devious and incredibly selfish...con men and women who speak artfully contrived things and aid in scattering the sheep who are already beaten down and wounded,....Apostates were stumbled..and need to have ones think like them to justify their stumbling.

Keep in mind many who are branded Apostates are not True apostates...I’m talking about True Apostates here,

Secondly  
They truly have been used by Jehovah in advancing Gods work and knowledge of his Great Plan....BUT....pride and humility And abuse of such a position may also prove to be their stumbling stone...

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Continued....

So going back to the brother who asked the question; "how we would feel if suddenly Jehovah stopped existing". I wonder how we would feel if suddenly if the GB stopped existing? Would we fall apart?

Yes, well said. 

Yes. And funny you mentioned too many chiefs and not enough Indians, I was going to mention that very phrase, lol. Actually, I was going to say you can't have more chiefs than Indians. Same thing.

Going back to the fear of apostates, it makes me wonder why they (the GB) are so afraid, to the point of putting the fear of God in you if you so much as glance at something apostate related. That has always bothered me a bit. Are they afraid that their influence be undermined? That people will lose trust in them? If that is so, where then does the trust in Jehovah figure? Are we not supposed to trust Jehovah more than any man? Does it not reveal that our trust may lie more in the GB than Jehovah? Recently, in one of the study articles it was mentioned that idolizing someone (the reference was to the GB) could become a stumbling block if that someone falls away. Is it then not better to see the "contrasting view" because that might help us be more realistically grounded. And as JWI alluded (I think it was JWI) why try and "hide" something unless we are ashamed of it (meaning the GB) and why not be candid and transparent? Why have all this "secret" stuff for the apostates to dig up and wave around? Stuff that the GB does not want us to read? Do they think our faith in Jehovah is so fragile?

When you believe in God, then this inevitably leads to questions about his purpose for us and the meaning of life. This in turn leads to an analysis of writings which claim to explain that. This leads to admitting that the Bible has the most intelligent explanation, and that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who adhere to all of it despite some personal sacrifice on their part.
When you do not accept there is a God, like Amber, all that is no longer relevant.
Of course those who no longer believe there is a God fall back on so called "scientific proof" . And yes. There are things that don't quite add up about the timeline of the flood, the fossil record, and the age of man, etc. but despite that, even JTR, who believes in evolution (with a helping hand from Jehovah) is still with us.

For any intelligent person there is more proof of the existence of God than there isn't. Those who deny the existence of God do it more for personal reasons than because of science. When it comes down to the crunch, in the end, things are always personal, even if people try to imply some other noble cause or scientific enlightenment, or apostate reasoning. So what are the GB so afraid of?

 

Great common sense post...

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have no doubt of that. Do you know that I am blocked on Twitter by the Liebster Arnold foundation—the ones who published the recent book of the Tutsi brother who survived the Rwandan genocide? I went there upon reading that book and found that I had been blocked! I then followed them via another account (with the same banner that I use here as well)—it is not only here I have multiple personas—and I was instantly blocked again! (I did not follow them with my third account)

I said the same thing that you just said—‘in the Kingdom Hall we would work it out in two minutes.’ The internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. They probably came across me when I was exchanging barbs with a few villains, and do not know that I subsequently carted them all out to the curb. In this case, bad association truly did spoil a useful habit.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/08/blocking-trolls-the-star-trek-way-i-didnt-want-to-do-it.html

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Where does that come from then that he was? I know I have read it.

Can I ask what the book was called..I would be interested in it ...

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You certainly do not want to do that. It’s a horrible habit it be afflicted with.

If I take a swipe at you as regards the moniker, I can hardly not expect a jab back. I don’t know why I did it, really. Cocky, I guess—it’s as good a verdict as any. The pieces fit together together for a diatribe I was cooking up. I forgot that the pieces have feelings. My bad. I apologize. I have no beef you whatsoever, never have, and your remarks are among my favorites. They do represent—well, “thinking.“ I might even encourage more of them, except that then you might have the experience, as I do from time to time, that in the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression. 

“Aw, shut up, you Kentucky-fried foghorn—with your obnoxious phony Southern drawl!” the villain says to Benoit Blanc. it’s about time someone said it to me. (If you see the movie ‘Knives Out’—it is free on Amazon Prime—you must be prepared for a bit of language. It is by no means filthy, by today’s standards—I don’t recall a single f-bomb—but no way is it pristine like in the Kingdom Hall. It is an Hercule Poirot parody, with Daniel Craig playing the Christie-like eccentric, brilliant, and world-renowned sleuth, Benoit Blanc. There is nothing funnier, to my mind, then when he opens his mouth to emit a combination of French/Southern Redneck accent and routinely says things that, at first glance are profound, but at second are just plain stupid.)

 

Well you are funny as well..and witty I’m sure if we were all in the same cong we would get on great...🤗

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I see what you are saying, but this is like comparing pumpkins and slippers (Thanks to Arauna for the expression, possibly inspired from Cinderalla). You are doing quite the opposite of what it appears that Furuli has been doing. I agree that the narcissism label is fraught with problems. But it is not evidenced in people who admit that they will likely agree with someone on things and disagree on other things and simply not understand one way or another on other things. This is already good evidence that you are NOT a narcissist.

I don't think Furuli is a narcissist simply for writing a book that trashes the current accepted view of the GB. As you probably know, I agree with much of what he says about that same subject. Just as I agree with what Fred Franz said about the subject from a scriptural perspective. And I have long presented my view that the "faithful slave" is a lesson for all of us, not a lesson about a clergy of appointed slaves to serve spiritual food for the good for nothing slave laity.

The idea of narcissism comes from the scholastic dishonesty he has engaged in. And, believe it or not, from my own perspective, I'm giving him a generous rationale for his scholastic dishonesty. If it is based on the inability to see where he has ever been wrong, then this is an explanation for why he cannot deal with evidence that shows he is wrong. A person can engage in scholastic dishonesty without being purposely dishonest in the sense of being devious. A narcissist will create such an extreme bias to protect their own ideology that it produces a mental block against rational handling of counter-arguments and counter-evidence. Extreme bias can make one engage in dishonesty without making them a purposeful liar.

On the topic of 607, this really has nothing to do with whether the date is right, or whether Furuli or anyone else has the doctrine right or wrong. It's simply about his many cases of obvious scholastic dishonesty. Even if he was absolutely right about 607 he still handled the evidence dishonestly.

I agree that it's quite possible I'm wrong. But if it has no overriding mental basis, I'd be inclined to see his past actions as absolute, purposeful, devious dishonesty just to keep his reputation intact. I have to admit that I think he has at times, engaged in this type of dishonesty, too. One time, on a very academic Biblical language forum he said something that was proven to be absolutely false, and he couldn't deny it. He couldn't admit he was wrong, so he claimed that what he wrote had started out as a purposeful presentation of the wrong side, that he had sent without the correction. To me, that was either a mental inability to admit being wrong, or it was purposeful "devious" dishonesty. 

And, as you say, he may be right on many of the points made in this latest book, but many of them continue in this consistent pattern of having promoted a certain ideology, from somewhere around the 1970s, for example, but with the inability to admit that anything that changed after that point had ever have been wrong in the first place.

I'd like to think that this latest book is a complete turning over of a new e-leaf, and I could dismiss the past foibles. Yet, he still wants the creative days to add up to 49,000 years.

King David lacked the mental in ability to admit he was wrong....and he was purposely devious...and dishonest....and he absolutely wanted to keep his reputation intact....so now we judge Rolf and condemn him ...let’s leave it with Jehovah....take what we know to be true...think whatever on the rest...but don’t assassinate    his character..unless you are prepared to do the same to King David....to my knowledge he’s not the only one  thinking that about the creative days...I’ve heard it on the grapevine before,,,,

no one has got it all right...not yet anyway,,,,

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Whether his is narcissistic or not is for others to say, but there is clearly something squirrelly about him. Why he would throw away the brotherhood to absolutely no purpose is beyond me. To throw it away because he thinks the religion JWs practice is all wet is one thing. But he presses the point that his religion is the true one. So why publish an indictment of the GB as you reaffirm everything else. He knows it will cost him (something I myself did’t know, nor some others here). He has counted the costs and is willing for the brotherhood to be severed from him, for something he knows will do no good! He submits his work to Bethel, but when they “refuse” to engage him, he publishes it to make Reddit’s day. The Witness organization will say, “One more bit of opposition? Throw it on the stack,” and he knows they will say that. 

4Jah, odd even in a menagerie of oddballs, says: “I bet your sweating that Rolf wrote his book. I bet you’re sweating that my friends are scheming up other mischief.” Of course I am. But I also keep it in perspective. Could he really have been a Witness at one time, for he seems to have forgotten everything. Wasn’t that his ancestor that was saying to ancient worshippers of Jehovah: I bet you’re sweating that your buddies are “tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection.“  I bet you’re sweating that other have “their trial by mockings and scourgings.” I bet you’re sweating that for others it will be “by chains and prisons.” I bet you’re sweating that some will be “stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slaughtered by the sword, they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, while they were in need, in tribulation, mistreated.” I bet you’re sweating that my world has consigned them to “wander about in deserts and mountains and caves and dens of the earth.” Wasn’t that his cousin, 4Jahovich, who taunted Dennis Christensen, “I bet you’re sweating that we’re going to throw you in the hoosegow” or two the Russian branch: “I’ll bet you’re sweating that we’re going to declare you illegal extremists.” He has forgotten everything he ever knew about Christianity. It’s as though he thinks Jesus and the twelve are in the “Roman Empire Hall of Fame.”

As for Rolf trading away the brotherhood—If I suffer misfortune and vanish from the internet, (as recently happened to a long-time player here) none of my online acquaintances will ever know why. Was I hit by a bus? Did I suddenly go gravely ill? Did I have a bad conscience over confronting the villains? Did I empty my pockets and still not have enough for my ISP bill? Nobody will ever know. But because I stick with the brotherhood, people will know my distress within a few hours, a day or so at most, and they will be people disposed to do everything they can to remedy my problem. All that Rolf throws away to no purpose other than making a statement. Narcissistic? Maybe not, but the symptoms resemble it closely enough that JWI can be forgiven for not knowing the difference.

I run the risk of seeming anti-scholar here, and I am not. I like books. I have read more than most. When the BBC ran a list of the 100 greatest books of all time, I found that I had read over 50 of them—“read” them via Books-on-Tape while working as a janitor. But too many things are phrased as though matters of scholarship, matters of the head, as though “Wisdom puffs up, but not in my case.” Forgive me, but I would not choose ‘Thinking’ as a moniker, even though I do a lot of it—and “Scholar JW” as a handle leaves me cold. There probably was nobody less scholarly than the twelve who accompanied Jesus, perhaps excepting only Judas, who was not from the hills, but from “metropolitan” Jerusalem. There were plenty of scholars at the time, but Jesus bypassed them all—he was looking for those who would do God’s will, as opposed to just studying it—to shake it down in its components with a heady goal of instructing others. “What is desired in a steward is to be found faithful,” Jesus states, not “analytical.” Of course, the head trains the heart—we all know that. But much more does the heart train the head, so that to overemphasize the head seems to be missing the point. There are brothers who wish to be known for their critical thinking, and even by their eagerness to be “led by the science.” It makes no sense to me. The first thing that contemporary scientists will do is to tell you where you can go with your quaint little notion of Adam and Eve. Science is THE tool of those humanists that would defy God. It is enough to keep up with it—we don’t have to venerate is as they do—as the be-all and end-all. Scholarship is a great thing—pour me a double-shot of it—but it ranks somewhat low in Christian qualities necessary for approval before God. To hear some carry on here (not you), it is the ONLY thing that matters.

 

Aaah Tom you talk a lot..you have a lot of words.....and you at times come over as a bit self righteous...why did I chose thinking,,,not for the reasons you so wrongly presume....thinking was ..because I simply often dont know...what to think...is this right...is that right?...is he right...what if I’ve got it wrong?..Am I leaning on my own understanding??....always thinking..because I cannot afford not to...not having your confidence and assurity of one self...so alas..as old as I am...I have to keep thinking...to make sure...You are to cocky Tom...too self assured....but hey...every Congs got one....

If you read his book he clearly explains he spoke up because of the many who were disfellowshipped wrongly ...he had first hand experience ....and there was a lot of truth in this section of his book.

there were other reasons also...but that one stood out to me the most...
I guess he fell on his sword because he felt it was the right thing to do basically..he is getting old..his time is short...maybye there are other reasons..but I don’t know the brother myself..not personally.

ive never spoken to him...never watched him with other brothers and sisters...I have not read his other books....but that would prove nothing....Personally I think he would have done more good staying with in the cong..But he must have thought speaking up was worth the sacrifice.

your on a forum..I’m on a forum...JWI is on a forum...Billy the kid is on the forum.....but that’s okay...our sin is not as big as Rolfs sin after all...Is it?....ours is just a little sin...so we should be right....after all...a forum is different to writing a book isn’t it....Rolf did on a big scale what we do on a small scale...
you gotta give it to him...he had more guts than me and nearly everyone else on this forum...name and picture up for all to see....

we all use monikers ( not you ) because we know very well if we published our names and pictures we would be marked or out in that back room like jack flash.
we have been warned from the platform about forums...when we had meetings...I have anyway....

thats one point he was making in the book...

I totally agree with you that all the scholarly knowledge means nothing with out the basic love...And words are just as useless with out love too....Now I’m writing a novel...picking up your bad habit I think 😉

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I can believe that. But i don't know how you mean, yet.

A lot of what he said was true...I have yet to study his book...and I will....I have read it...but quickly in some parts. But i will make a study of it....which actually requires pulling some things apart  and it is worthwhile doing that because that’s how one learns.....and I may disagree with some of the scriptural things he said....and as I said I agree with him on some things already...more than likely I will simply not understand one way or another... on some subjects...but does that make me narcissistic???.

I don’t have any problems with 607...and yes I’ve read Olaf and many others who believe as you do....personally I don’t understand your belief...but that is your right to have that belief....and I respect that,

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I believe that when a person reads Furuli carefully they will see evidence for such traits of narcissism. And as long as I am saying this, I think that what came through in the subtext of his books also appealed to persons having similar traits. The persons who had been Furuli's most vocal defenders in the past, like a person named "scholar JW" is an example who has shown the same extreme indifference to the "counsel of evidence." Any correction provided by evidence was always thrown back as if the reputation of the sources of correction needed to be trashed and dishonored for daring to correct them. Examples of this type of reaction to counsel and evidence abound in discussion forums, too. And any and all of us can fall into that trap of pride: (But keep an eye on yourself, for fear you too may be tempted.)

Furuli, for example, didn't like the fact that all the hundreds of Neo-Babylonian scholars, 100 percent of them, told him that he was wrong to believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE. So he focused on one piece of evidence that clearly shows the 607 date is wrong. And what does he resort to? He trashed the scholars, he trashed the museum curators. He accused them of fraud, even accused unspecified persons of sanding down evidence of the original cuneiform and replacing it with markings that makes it fit their own scheme. (He doesn't bother to point out that this is only one of thousands of pieces of evidence that supports a 587/6 BCE date and that there is still absolutely zero evidence going against that accepted date, Biblical or secular.)

Now moving forward to the present, there is evidence that Furuli was being told he was wrong about "higher education" and that he was wrong to want to stick with "Fred Franz" interpretations when the rest of the GB had already moved on from that. He would have seen the example of "A. Smith" that Brother Splane spoke about at the 2014 Annual Meeting as "counsel" against his own view that hadn't changed. He clearly compared himself to Fred Franz, and wanted to continue that role. If he was a narcissist, then he would have seen the need to trash and dishonor these counselors. And he did! He needed to project back onto them, some of the same traits that he should be able to see in himself, but can't.

Especially in the case where he knows he is about to be "proven" wrong to the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, he would be forced to trash those who had decided he was wrong. Narcissists simply cannot accept counsel or evidence that says they are wrong.

I could be wrong, but that's how I currently see it.

Yes you are right...you are wrong  

On 5/28/2020 at 1:17 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

At the beginning of Furuli's book there is a paragraph referring to a certain letter sent to {the congregations? the elders?} The paragraph in question says:

The letter of 15 June 2018 changed this situation:
We would like to inform you of an updated policy with regard to
whether a Christian may administer a blood transfusion if he is directed
to do so by a superior. The previous policy was that it would be a matter
for a personal, conscientious decision whether to obey such an order.
However, after carefully reviewing the matter, the Governing Body has
determined that administering such a transfusion is so closely linked
with an unscriptural practice that one unquestionably becomes an
accomplice in a wrong practice. Therefore, it would not be appropriate
for a Christian to administer a blood transfusion under any
circumstance.—Gen. 9:4; Acts 15:28, 29.4

I would like to mention that I cannot find this letter. I have looked again in the letters to the elders section of our branch in Spain, but I have not found it. I am not saying at all that Furuli is not truthful, only that I cannot find this letter. Maybe someone could help me out ...

 

I remember this but that date seems to be way off from my recollections???

it affected a few of us in the cong...then again maybe it was a second letter re-emphasising their stand on a persistent practise.?

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Just in case anyone wasn't aware, a few of JTR's recent posts had moved in this same direction, and I thought I'd share the entire song from which JTR referenced a couple of the lyrics. It struck me as too sad to respond immediately. Although I would not think it enough to draw any conclusions:

 

"Seasons In The Sun"
(originally by Jacques Brel)

Terry Jacks (performer)

Goodbye to you my trusted friend
We've known each other since we were nine or ten
Together we've climbed hills and trees
Learned of love and ABCs
Skinned our hearts and skinned our knees

Goodbye my friend, it's hard to die
When all the birds are singing in the sky
Now that the spring is in the air
Pretty girls are everywhere
Think of me and I'll be there

We had joy, we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the hills that we climbed
Were just seasons out of time

Goodbye papa, please pray for me
I was the black sheep of the family
You tried to teach me right from wrong
Too much wine and too much song
Wonder how I got along

Goodbye papa, it's hard to die
When all the birds are singing in the sky
Now that the spring is in the air
Little children everywhere
When you see them, I'll be there

We had joy, we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the wine and the song
Like the seasons, have all gone

We had joy, we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the wine and the song
Like the seasons, have all gone

Goodbye Michelle, my little one
You gave me love and helped me find the sun
And every time that I was down
You would always come around
And get my feet back on the ground

Goodbye Michelle, it's hard to die
When all the birds are singing in the sky
Now that the spring is in the air
With the flowers everywhere
I wish that we could both be there

We had joy, we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the stars we could reach
Were just starfish on the beach

We had joy, we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the stars we could reach
Were just starfish on the beach

We had joy, we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the wine and the song
Like the seasons, have all gone

All our lives we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the hills that we climbed
Were just seasons out of time

We had joy, we had fun
We had seasons in the sun

 

Yes I knew where he got that from and the point wasn’t missed...too sad...and I hope I’m wrong....dam ..I hope I’m wrong...

On 5/24/2020 at 5:02 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote ..Because we don’t follow watchtower...no matter what others say....or try to infer on many of us here.

That is so funny. No more than a month ago I was talking with an Elder on the telephone and I asked him about his view on something. His reply was that he would have to go and do some research on it. I wanted HIS viewpoint, not the Org's viewpoint, but i do know that JWs are told not to give their own personal viewpoint on anything relating to the Bible or the Org.  (been there, done that)

You make me sick...you have shown your real core to everyone here....a man puts up what could be his eulogy to all..and you post up something to promote your belief...you try to score a point....you are ruthless and cruel..and so are some others here....you have shown the whole forum what condition  your heart is...How about showing a little common decency..and some respect....you disgust me as a human..
Unbelievable!!!

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, he certainly was that.

Offhand, I think you guys are nuts (not you specifically, Thinking) He lost all his kids—none will speak with him. And for what? So as to spread every opposition taunt and insult about the earthly organization that Witness and 4Jah and Srecko and Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiiii and Matthew4 5784 are perfectly content and capable to spread? That is worth losing your family for?

I, for one, am delighted if he is recalibrating, because by doing so he may reasonably hope to reconcile himself to his family again, not to mention the greater brotherhood. Fear not, there is no danger of his becoming “Brother Watchtower,” as he put it. And, to be sure, I would prefer it if he continued with a modified parousia here rather than vanishing completely, for I will miss the guy. But sometimes in changing course one must make a complete break. I say that I am going to cease interacting with any of the villains, but then I come across that GIF of Kirk and the Gorn and it is curtains for me. Sometimes you just have to turn things off.

I both like and admire when someone is willing to call a spade a spade. But calling a heart, a diamond, and a club a spade as well is too much. Is he readjusting his life to become not so breathtakingly disrespectful of those struggling with their own imperfections to take the lead in the Christian work? Good. It is not such a horrible thing to allow oneself to be molded by discipline, particularly when it comes of his own accord, which it obviously did. 

ObiWan seemed to have disappeared. So did Gandalf. But they both came back much improved for their disappearance. Maybe the same here someday.

I feel nothing but sadness over this...I actually feel sick....I don’t know his past as most of you all do here..but I could see that obviously he had been hurt and badly disappointed in things he had witnessed and experienced or heard..that goes on InThe Org.

I hope sincerely  he does not become brother watchtower ....Because we don’t follow watchtower...no matter what others say....or try to infer on many of us here.
I believe he had a genuine heart.

I also hope he has left to do as you think he has ...and he isn’t dying !!!.
I would also like to point out what  Bro. David Splane  from the GB said at our Melbourne assembly
I can only paraphrase it from memory.

(There  are brothers and sisters who have been hurt with in the org....and we may have to allow them and put up with ...WILD TALK....from them...it’s part of their healing..).

He was mocked a lot and some down right cruel comments thrown his way ....I actually was surprised at how well he took it......I hope he comes back for selfish reasons...but for his sake....he would probably be safer and more content And remain faithful by going into his interior room until the denunciation has passed over.

On 5/22/2020 at 12:36 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

In good times, and bad times, in times easy and times hard, I have relied on the JW-Archive as a sounding board for many things, and appreciate the forbearance when I have ranted and raved about all sorts of things, even from the Librarian, who often deleted my posts, with cause.

I have come to the conclusion that logic and reason is not the end-all that I had aspired to, and that all things being considered, it would have been better for me to be "Brother Watchtower", than the man I have become.

I am 73 years old, and I probably do not have time to change .... realistically, but for 14 billion years I did not exist, and I don't remember it bothering me any.

My Wife Susan, and my sons and daughter will fulfill whatever unfulfilled dreams I had, as the stars I could reach ... were just starfish on the beach.

With whatever time I have left, it is going to be my life's challenge, so I bid each of you so long, and hope you stay closer to Jehovah than I did. 

....and like Forest Gump said "... and that's all I am going to say about that."

Goodby.

 

I am truly saddened by this....I hope you are okay brother and you have been a great encouragement...because even tho you were obviously hurt with in the truth....you never lost your genuine love for your God Jehovah...and you underestimate your faith...faith is easy when it has not been beaten,,,,but to still have faith when you have been beaten and lay wounded.....that’s real faith...and it would be a honour to have served shoulder to shoulder with you.

I don’t know what’s going on..but I sincerely hope you are reasonably well....and a huge thank you from me....for being REAL !!!!!!

Thanks  I have been able to get hold of them...big read ahead I suppose 

On 4/30/2020 at 5:40 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

He complains frequently about pin-headed people who come out of nowhere to attack and argue with him. I skimmed the first, more of less just to say I did it, and found myself wishing that I had 20X the time to do it properly

Can I ask what your thoughts and summary were of these books as I cannot get them in Australia...

On 4/23/2020 at 6:14 AM, 4Jah2me said:

@Shiwiii Thank you for understanding me and for defending my point of view. 

I truly think that @Arauna understood every word that I wrote, but she just wants to make trouble for me. 

Unfortunately @Arauna  does not understand the difference between obedience to GOD as opposed to obedience to the GB and it's 2 orgs ( Wt & CCJW ). 

A true Christian knows that Yeshua / Jesus came to earth to die as a ransom for Adam's sin. It was planned even before he was born as a human. 

But the death of any other human is NOT PLANNED out before hand. And the Matthew 12 v 9 -12 scripture still stands. 

I honestly don't believe that those people in the 1st century would have even thought about blood transfusions. The scripture is addressed not to Jews but to the people of the nations, and they would have been used to seeing people drinking blood as it was not uncommon. 

 Acts 15 v 19 & 20 

" Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, ²⁰  but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood". 

Verse 14 says.. " Symʹe·onq has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."

This directive was given to the Gentiles. It was about not drinking blood. 

The GB would know this for sure and in a way they prove it by allowing 'Blood Fractions' which are taken from whole blood. If they really believed blood was so sacred they would not agree to it being taken out of the body to be divided into parts. 

Christ's blood was something totally different. He was a perfect human and his blood was perfect and therefore the perfect offering. And the Anointed partake of that perfect 'blood' to be ONE with Christ. 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. 's  comment is almost unbelievable :-

" I have never even met anyone that is "loyal to the Governing Body".

They do try to be loyal to God ...by obeying the non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong, sometimes goofy self-aggrandizing teachings of the GB. "

I hope that is all supposed to be a joke.  How can the above comment be, being 'loyal to God' ?

Realising that the GB are ' non-inspired and all to often fallible and flat wrong ' and  'goofy self-aggrandizing', then anyone would not obey them. Blind men leading the blind. 

By obeying them that is being loyal to them, in fact it is almost worshipping them. 

There is so much more to answer, so many other comments. But I'll leave you with JTR Jr's comment about the GB ;-

They alone are allowed to apostatize from their previous teachings, without severe punishment.

And what does that tell you ?  They have exalted themselves above all others. 

No one can know who is anointed or not...that is between Jehovah and them...
It’s one of the reasons you would be a fool to worship the GB...never alone the clear scriptural warnings against it.

The organization exists as a tool to get the basic preaching work done....and just as there was a Judas working alongside of the apostles and worked with Jesus....so too there will be a Judas element at the top..... who ever Gods people are...and where ever they are.

It Is true what you say...Moses was known when he was born and Jehovah intended to use him in his assignment...but he was still a murderer before he took up that assignment ...

Time will sort many of us out......you are actually incredibly self righteous and have marked so many of us...unjustly so.......and you don’t even know that is what you are doing.

instead why not try to develop the attitude that Paul had....because only Jesus is going to correct the errors that you see...and that we see also...and the confusions .

Keep in mind he was talking to Gods People here...followers of Christ...

why do you think it will be any different today?

Phillipians 1:15,18 NIV

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defence of the gospel.

the former preach Christ out of selfish ambition not sincerely, supposing that tthey can stir up trouble for me while I am in my chains.

BUT WHAT DOES IT MATTER the important thing is that in every way, wether from FALSE motives or TRUE Christ is preached .

And because of this I rejoice. Yes and I will continue to rejoice.

By The way even sporting organisations have a Governing Body to organise their body of members...

And our GB will stand before their God for accountability just as you and I will....or do you not trust Jehovah to be fair and Just?

How does this make any sense to average jws? 

............................

Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...

the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..

all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 

he had no right to do that.

And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.

He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )

now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.

yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..

yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...

Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...

Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.

Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...

Numbers 20:24

Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.

Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels

and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...

Numbers 20:10

.....hear now YOU REBELS

the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....

yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....

Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..

so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...

Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.

Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....

@James Thomas Rook Jr. 

it is one of my greatest laments also....and now it will be done in fear sadly 

Yes it’s very very interesting isn’t it ...

James he is the creator of the Law...without him no law....no creation...no mankind...

as such he can decide who’s life to end and who’s not to because they are not following his Laws.

Thus  the lawmaker has the right to take a life without it  being classified as murder,

You yourself have used many words to ask a question which really as someone pointed out to you... answered yourself...which leaves me laughing at myself for being so crazy to reply to this thread...but it is a question that others have asked so I’ve gleaned from others here on how to help someone who has the same question.
Job 37:23

Understanding  the Almighty is beyond our reach
He is great in Power and  he never violates his justice and abundant righteousness.

But you already knew all this didn’t you.

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

They have brother...and it shouldn’t require to much insight to see that...perhaps you may need to rephrase the question

I think I know what your trying to say..but perhaps I’ve got it wrong....

I may very well have this wrong but Jehovah is in actual fact engaged in warfare now.

Revelation 12:7then war broke out in heaven and Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.

He was forced Into a state of warfare since Satan rebelled.

Joshua 5:13,14 Identifies Michael as his Prince of Jehovah’s army....and also ...

when the Israelites came out of Egypt they marched out in Military formation.

even when the angel stood guard at the Garden of Eden ..he used a flaming sword ( weapon of war ) to block their re entering 

warfare carried out by Jehovah is righteous ..

warfare carried out by mere man for mans ruler ship over man is not righteous nor condoned by him, he would still consider that murder...as all warfare is governed and caused by his enemy Satan a man slayer And the ruler of the world at this time.

He is only tolerating mans warfare or allowing it because it is not his appointed time....

He uses humans as earthly agents to achieve his plan...when it suits him...and that involves warfare at times because Satan is using man to fight his war against Jehovah.

Proverbs 16:4,,,Jehovah has made everything work for his purpose even the wicked for the day of disaster.

At this present time Satan is the Prince of air and ruler of this world and he has chosen to fight by warfare.....he chose the weapon...not Jehovah .

All warfare is murder unless it has been instructed to be carried out via the  Chief of His Armies Michael.

Jehovah would never condone warfare amongst men,..and from what I have read he would consider all of those deaths a unwarranted evil murder.....

I cannot find anything in the scriptures at this stage to suggest otherwise...but by all means if I’m wrong please correct me....it’s a interesting question and it’s deeper than most of us realize.

Basically all those Jehovah instructed to be put to the sword were allowed hundreds of years to change and he allowed them to go to the fullness of their error....they had become irredeemable in his eyes...and hurting his people and name and his plan....and they would NEVER change.