Thinking

20 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It must have been the old hen who made this into its own thread, and my second comment I no longer remember what that was about—some sort of inside joke that no longer is relevant, I suppose. But if you have actually been beat up and much as you say you have—I have never heard of such a thing—than I think you should focus on was even a little tiny bit of it your fault and work on that. It is much easier to work on yourself than on others. 

Since you treasure the core that is JW, know it is found nowhere else, and are determined not to forsake it, you should work on making peace with the earthly organization. Otherwise you simply have the worst of two worlds. Why should that be? Change. If you want to present that you have been wronged, I will grant that. Still, you must move on. 

For crying out loud, go to the AA meeting if you have to and memorize their prayer—it may not be from us but it is not bad at all: “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” Focus on the first and third phrases, for you have NO problem with the second.

Rubbish...leave him alone....he’s brutally honest...yeah at times he might say something that makes you wince a bit...probably because there was an element of truth in his words.

jehovahs people down thru time have in the most part been a disappointment to him.

1Cor 10Now I want you to know brothers that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed thru the sea and all got baptised into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea and all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the same spiritual rock that followed them and that rock meant the Christ.NEVERTHELESS God  was not pleased with MOST OF THEM...for they were struck down in the wilderness.

you honestly think we are any different to the Israelites of old....we are not! 
those men who refused to go into the land of Canaan because they felt they appeared as grasshoppers .... were the spiritual leaders of that time...they were not just the little Israelite.

today is no different ...we are no different...we think we are but we are not.

james has a better grasp on reality than  you my brother ....he’s been beaten up...but he is still standing amongst Gods people....so I suggest you leave him alone as he’s very valuable to Jesus...... as valuable as that prostitute that the apostles first looked down on 😉

On 11/8/2018 at 2:51 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I no longer attend meetings due to the Child Abuse problem earthwide in the JW Org. I left the Org in January of this year. I could not be part of what I'd found about. I could not encourage other people in to such dangerous situations. 

If i had stayed I would have passed on information to other congregants, then I would have been disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. It was better for me to leave of my own choice and be free to use my own voice to tell anyone that would listen.

I could have stayed and become completely inactive, a Jehovah's bystander. But that would have silenced me, and by doing so, make me part of the problem. In my opinion if a person knows of danger but keeps quiet then they are almost as bad as the ones causing the danger. 

Many here say I am giving false alarms, but we each have to weigh up the situation and deal with it as we think best. 

 

Well tho I understand your reasoning I don’t agree with it...it would be better for you to stay and be discreet in aiding where you feel the need....just as Jesus said  there would always be poor amongst us...I would also like to apologise because I do see active witnesses constantly posting laughs after many people’s comments....that’s just immature and rude...we dont laugh at  people on the doors...so we shouldn’t here...

but you are going down a wrong track and I know you don’t beleive that...it’s sad..and so unnecessary....but I guess others have tried to help you see this so I’ll leave of now...

just imagine if you had been around when there were temple prostitutes....yet Jehovah still used that system and allowed that for a Time being ....

On 11/8/2018 at 10:51 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe the self-righteous and judgmental comes from people like. Perhaps this is why you display spiritual immaturity. If you want to use your arrogance to insult, your no brother of mine. I've had a family member raped. So, don't get sanctimonious with me boy.

At a circuit assembly the Bethel brother stated that a lot of elders had to learn to yield to each other as many were  irritating each other and even leaving congs to attend others....they had to learn to be wronged ..and act with graciousness......for the sake of peace I will yield.   ....even tho I’m the lowly older sister ..

On 11/8/2018 at 2:08 PM, Witness said:

Wt. 1964/10/1 - "Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a PROPHETLIKE ORGANIZATION, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation."

Wt. 972/4/1 -  "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" 

How do you think the prophetic claims are made?  Who voices them?  Someone other than the GB?  Their "prophesy" is not inspired by Holy Spirit, but through demonic "inspiration".  

Review the record.  It shows nothing but failed prophesy.  

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@JW Insider comment above and my comment above prove the point I'm making. The 'rulers' of JW Org and the Elders could do a lot more. But they are still trying to make the JW Org 'look clean' even when it isn't. 

Yes of course only God through Jesus Christ can bring in the New World and bring back perfection, but that is no excuse for others to stop trying to make things better now.  And I'm still not sure if you believe that only one organisation is the true way to God, or if a person can be 'saved' on their own faith. 

You could help by staying....and just being there for ones who are hurting...I’ve heard good solid brothers tell it like it is.....it’s refreshing and up building .....perhaps organization isnt the best word to use ..I dont know when that was introduced....Russell didn’t introduce it ....I think of us as a big worldwide congregation...just like a huge family with all its troubles and problems ..tears and joys and smiles...

i remember a brother once drew a line on the board...it started high and as the line travelled across the board it went into a downward spiral ....he said...that was the world.."he then asked us...how do you think Jehovah’s people are travelling.....he then drew a line..above the worlds declining line ....but it to went into a spiral downward...it remained above the worlds spiraling...but we still went down..just at a slower pace to that of the world.

it was a sobering thought for all of us.....don’t expect too much from any of us....it really boils down to just you and Jehovah....

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I no longer attend meetings due to the Child Abuse problem earthwide in the JW Org. I left the Org in January of this year. I could not be part of what I'd found about. I could not encourage other people in to such dangerous situations. 

If i had stayed I would have passed on information to other congregants, then I would have been disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. It was better for me to leave of my own choice and be free to use my own voice to tell anyone that would listen.

I could have stayed and become completely inactive, a Jehovah's bystander. But that would have silenced me, and by doing so, make me part of the problem. In my opinion if a person knows of danger but keeps quiet then they are almost as bad as the ones causing the danger. 

Many here say I am giving false alarms, but we each have to weigh up the situation and deal with it as we think best. 

 

I am very sorry to hear this John....I understand your reasoning but I would heavily ask you to consider the examples of Anna the prophetess and Simeon the Preist.....they lived amongst a lot of evil doings at the temple....yet they stayed and carried on with what they knew was required by them from Jehovah...

you are missing a lot of genuine love experienced among the brothers and sisters,,,having said that even brothers that give talks from the platform have stated that they are aware the love of the brotherhood Is cooling off.....but there is still a lot to be found...

John if you seen the apostles sitting at a table would you not be eager to join them...but would you turn your back on them if you seen Judas sitting there with full knowledge  about him...would you turn away from the good men for the sake of one bad man...

I wish you the best and I hope one day you can see where you learnt all about Jehovah’s kingdom and the wonderful hope that lies ahead...but you are being tested now...after all John....we serve Jehovah and not the watchtower.... but the watchtower/society is not perfect...we will always have errors and problems because ...well for many reasons.. but try for just a day...to look at the positives that Jehovah has fed us thru them....and be like Simeon and go about your business...

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe in this case, witnesses that wish to interfere in the affairs of the Watchtower. When dealing with legal matters, they should find themselves well versed in legal definitions. Within the Australia territories, there are differences of opinion on how one fundamental religious sacrament should be viewed. Some define it as imperative, while others have become more liberal with its interpretation.

 

 

This is the reason Bro Jackson volunteered to make this issue the same across the entire country. The southern territories opposed making changes to the confessional seal. It remeans the same.

 

 

The outcry of disgruntled women here will not change how the government decides. The thing, which is being overlooked by such persons as yourself, the effort the Watchtower has made to educate parents best practices to protect their children, for decades.

 

 

This idea that Elders should be more proactive is an excuse by those wishing to lend a blind eye to scripture.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:11-18

 

 

11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

 

 

What witnesses are doing is defying God for a cause that outsiders really don’t want to understand.

 

 

You and I don’t know what the legal department is doing in the background. You advocate against conspiracy theory. When opposers offer tainted material, what should that be called? When witnesses add to that narrative and support the same tainted material, what should that be called?

 

 

If the Watchtower does 1000 things right, and 1 thing that is out of the Watchtower control. Critics focus on that 1 thing by offering questionable material or take watchtower articles out of context, then it should be left in God’s hand. Those witnesses that wish to continue with this activism, should find themselves behind a desk earning a law degree.

 

 

It is not a matter of the information seen, it's how that information is introduced and perceived.

 

 

Just as in Butler's example. A parent is the first defense for a child. If a mother allows the children to sit wherever they like, just because one parent is not a witness, just turned to an excuse for what the witness parent should be doing, keeping the family together. Why should an elder need to tell a person, what they should already know? Then, Srecko would be correct.

 

 

Okay Billy  the kid...let me make one thing clear to you...I have not overlooked the massive amount of work the society has done in educating all about this problem...in fact I use it.......you are very self righteous and judgmental...and I can only assume still a bit of a kid...where you and I are different is I listen to these so called disgruntled women....and men.....who have been raped ......I cannot even beleive you made such a clearly chauvinistic comment...but that does show your immaturity..so I’m giving you some leeway to leave your short pants you are wearing and will offer you patience to grow Into long pants ..thus show a bit of emotional maturity...

Many are confused and have doubts....we need to speak consolingly to those who have doubts....I can see on this thread there are a lot of troublemakers who will not listen to reason...they are here to cause division and trouble....but you do not help a lot as you come over rather pious...and self righteous......and that’s only gives them fuel brother...

I advocate for trying to understand both sides of the coin..but always with Jehovah’s love and  compassion...but there does come  time where one has To draw a line in the sand With out right trouble  makers.

you have stated some good points in your comment brother...but you don’t have it all correct either..and nor do I....but at least I know that...

Those disgruntled women were once little girls who were raped...and angry men were little boys who were once raped...some over long periods of time...

They are in EVERY religion and organization world wide...most don’t even come to the attention of our elders...

I Thess 4,,,is good advice,,,for both of us ..so let us both stop continting with this activism.

24 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

OK, so lets have some truth spoken. Does anyone on here actually know if, The situation has arisen that a person is accused of being a pedophile and it is proved to be correct. If that person is allowed to remain in the Organisation, are the members of their congregation informed that this person is a proven Pedophile. Or, are the members of the same congregation informed that there is a Pedophile within their congregation.  As far as I know the congregants are not informed... 

Now, when our children were young, we were in a congregation in Bristol. Parents were told that during meetings their children had to stay with the parents. We had five young children but the congregation was kind enough to allow the use of the 'back room' for parents to look after disruptive / unhappy children. My wife and i often spent the meeting apart, one in the main hall, the other in the back room, but at all time we had all five children with at least one of us. 

Since living here in Devon we have found that the situation is different. Children can go and sit with whomever they want. Our children are grown up of course but we have grandchildren now.  I have seen three of our granddaughters all sitting separately with different people. This is helpful to their mother as her husband is not a Witness and does not attend meetings. But it does leave the situation wide open to one of those girls being abused, if mum doesn't know who she can trust and who she should not trust. 

So, in my opinion, the GB,  Organisation, Congregation Elders, have a Duty of Care, to inform the congregants if there is a Pedophile in their congregation. However i do not believe the congregants are informed. 

It is my understanding that they do it privately ...perhaps you could keep your granddaughters by your side at the meetings ...you also have a duty of care...

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If you look back at what the Watchtower has done without the need for the government to intervene, this question would not be asked. The Watchtower has obeyed the secular law as defined by Christ. No one should be a lawbreaker regardless if it's secular or biblical.

 

This includes having to be part of conspiracy theories. Many things have been implied here that are completely taken out of context to make an argument. This is dishonesty. Exaggeration is dishonesty, accepting tampered internet propaganda is dishonesty.

 

The Watchtower doesn’t need the government to tell it what to do, but they do make adjustments to the laws given. This is no different than us obeying local laws when changes are made. Do we not accept them and make adjustments? Or do we not agree with them and become a lawbreaker?

 

 

I think you have misunderstood my question brother...I just dont understand why Brother Jackson advised the Australian Government to make it mandatory in every state to report....why don’t we just do that ourselves..worldwide...

I also think we should be allowed to ask such honest question without being accused of engaging in conspiracy theories...

I totally back you as far as the great deceiver being at work on the internet..causing divisions and doubts amongs Jehovah’s people...there is no forum on the internet that is safe...

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I suggest you revisit the ARC inquiry. I don’t need a way out when one of the victims was told by the Elders to contact the authorities and she refused. They were going to do it, and she begged them not to. Try reading the transcript of all the trial.

 

Brother Jackson submitted a good idea to the ARC that would make it easy for everyone to be on the same page. The Australian parliament didn’t agree through the ARC. As for the changes the Watchtower made, it was to comply with the new laws that were enacted by the Australian government.

 

Understand where countries like Australia, Canada, UK, and America stand with the UN as one of the worse democratic countries to have looked the other way. That's what these new laws were meant to address. The governments getting involved. The problem with that, people fail to see, in Australia, their own government-run detention centers are guilty of allowing child abuse, and they passed a law condemning whistleblowers with jail time. This included doctors and nurses. The same thing is seen in American detention centers. what then? Canadians fair no better. That just leaves the UK, until someone unmasks them.

You can’t have it both ways. So, let’s not shift the responsibilities just because they are convenient.

 

But why do we need the law of the land to tell us to do the right thing?

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I find it fascinating that the governing body can proclaim themselves as the only “faithful and discreet slave” belonging to Christ.  They can change doctrine and call it new light because their previous doctrine was a lie, although most JWs will not see it that way.   They authorize the elder body to judge Christ’s anointed servants as “dead”, because these servants know what they teach is a lie and refuse to swallow it. 

So, an anointed woman with spiritual insight reveals these lies, and why they are being uttered…and SHE is considered the apostate. 

It is equally fascinating that God has chosen a woman to stand up to these pompous men and their lies.  Tell me, is an apostate one who tells the truth and stands for God and Christ, or one who lies through his teeth and stands for an organization?

A Great Deception - 4womaninthewilderness

 

Pearl has relayed to me personaly that she does not study the Bible as she does not have time..when some one writes to her and asks a question..she sits at the table with pen and paper and writes....she stated she does not even know what she has written a lot of the time...until she reads it.

Pearl is a kind woman..but she has been deceived and is promoting teachings inspired of demons...

She has built her own Golden calf And has her own following....many of these ex witnesses ...are either disfellowshipped or leave on their own accord...some have been genuinely hurt...others become puffed up with pride and so many become annoited...and have their own beliefs and teachings....and following ..

These ones live on forums and visit them all....trying to save witnesses...

Anyone who quotes pearl Doxcey as you have done ..is beyond understandimg  the big picture or Jehovah’s plan...sorry but I view you as a true apostate ...end of conversation !

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, you will not find the exact wording you are looking for in scripture. We could infer as I mentioned before on how to apply scripture for certain situations. I would assume you would know this as a former member. This, of course, its with the assumption you received the proper bible training.

 

This is why scripture reflects on the proper teaching for our children. It is the parent’s responsibility to not only teach their children in the Lord's way but also with what harm that can be had around them. In today's society, we can’t always trust our own family much less a stranger.

 

What safeguards has a parent instilled in their children? The Watchtower throughout the decades has given many examples of how to safeguard our children. Proverbs 22:6

 

What more can be done? The point to these is being diminished by 30-40-year-old claims that have surfaced to extend profit to the courts and lawyers. Profiteering, cashing in. Not really caring for the victim, but what the victim can bring forth to success.

 

How can scripture help parents?

 

Matthew 18:10

 

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

 

Matthew 18:6

 

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

 

This defines the role of the parents to safeguard their children. Why doesn’t scripture specifically talk directly to children? It should be obvious to everyone. They are vulnerable and LEARNING. Children shouldn’t have a need to defend themselves when the mature ones (parents) have that responsibility.

 

When my father saw, a brother talking to my sister in the kingdom hall, he would go to be part of that conversation. Once again, family values. If a parent sees an older brother talking to their younger children, are the parents supposed to trust, or play defensive? Christian parents somehow think the Elders are supposed to play referee with all their local congregants.

 

Where are the parents in all of this? Aside from wanting to live a carefree life, sometimes with song and dance, what prevents parents from fulfilling their duties.

 

2 Thessalonians 3:3

 

But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

 

This is indeed what is going on. The parents washed their hands like Pilate and assume no responsibility. They want to blame the GB, the Elders, the church. Everyone except themselves.

 

Activism from the outside or the inside by members that shouldn’t call themselves members anymore will not change the responsibility the parent has. If the government can’t do it, then why should the church. What the church can do, is continue to show areas of concern and print articles, kept their members alert so they can best handle their responsibility as the Watchtower has for decades.

 

Isaiah 49:25

 

For thus says the Lord: “Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken, and the prey of the tyrant be rescued, for I will contend with those who contend with you, and I will save your children.

 

Romans 8:28

 

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

 

Now, what is the responsibility of the church?  

 

James 1:27

 

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

 

 

The GB is not there to do the parents job. They have a specific role. Its to dispense spiritual food. They have given themselves to Christ as an example. What example are Watchtower members showing God, they are unified. None.

 

Hey Brother Billie..your way out on this....it is undeniable if you watched the ARC...we as a people were found to have faulty policies...that’s a fact..we were forced to ammend them.

Kids suffered because elders did not report or advise them to go to authorities...we tried to handle it in house....because Jehovah’s name was involved...some of these kids were shoved aside by their spiritual elders...come on brother..we have to accept responsibility where we were wrong....

otherwise the Catholic Church can lay it all down on the parents as well...

we as a people would not handle cases of abuse as we once did....but back then we did shove it under the carpet in a number of cases.

The child suffered...having said that many were handled well as could be...but we dont hear about them.

The GB made the Policies brother...and now have amended the policies..

Keep in minds for those who will jump on this as proof we are not his people......the Catholic Church and Anglican  Chirch has a percentage of well over 50% ..I forget the actual number but I’ve quoted on the low side....Jehovah witnesses had a ratio of 1%

so this needs to be kept in perspective...

It was a era of naivety on our parts ..as parents and probably elders as well...it was a different time ....we trusted to much....but then again the apostles didn’t recognize Judas when he was amongst them either...

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

 The GB are so similar to the religious leaders in Jesus' time. And they were responsible for the spiritual feeding in the Synagogues and at the Temple. But John the Baptist and Jesus told the people what was wrong in their teaching and behavior. But the religious leaders, the High Priest, the Pharisees, the Saddusees, the scribes etc. refused to repent and correct their ways. And became seriously guilty.

Many anointed brothers and sisters have written letters to the GB and tried to correct them, but until now they do not listen. Will they ever listen and repent? Or will they follow the course of the religious leaders of Jesus' time? We will see.

At a Circuit assembly we had a Bethel brother admit a number had been hurt by the organization...and were justified in their pain..he admited  we had problems with in the org..and even tho they are trying to fix them..he admitted they probably won’t  be fixed before the end comes....

when Jesus cleaned out the temple with whip etc...at no time did his apostles or any followers join him in doing that...so it will be when he returns....

He allowed Solomon and Saul to rule as kings for a long time after their falling away...

you honestly think any man..annoited or not can do what belongs To Christ...look at the pattern of his people....it’s not hard to work out....

There is a reason for him allowing things to be as they are.....

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I would have thought that if the GB are of the anointed class then they should have a much closer and different relationship with God. They would be sons of God with a view to the inheritance.  Therefore if they deliberately disobey God, or Jesus Christ who now has that authority, then they would be classed as the Wicked slave, that Jesus said would be thrown out in the street. 

Remember that the GB call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', they have given themselves that title.... Luke 14 v 11 clearly warns against anyone exalting themselves. But the GB have put the others of the anointed in a lower position than themselves, only exalting the GB consisting of 8 men.  Please remember that at one time the Organisation counted ALL of the Anointed as the Faithful slave. 

The JW Organisation is supposed to be superior to the Nation of Israel in as much as people join JW Org voluntarily, whereas in the Nation of Israel, people were born into it and had no choice. So each individual in the JW Org should prove that they have the right heart condition. However the GB are proving themselves to be in opposition to God, or at least sinning against God.  Is that sinning against the spirit ?  I really don't know.  

As for me judging them, I think we all have to make a decision about the GB and about the JW Org, otherwise how would we know whether it is right to serve God through Christ and through the JW Org or not.  We could just as well serve through the Pope if we followed blindly.  Yes a bit extreme but it makes the point i think. 

The GB have stated in true February 2016/2017 ..not sure of the dates ...that the FDS has not been appointed as of yet....and are yet to be judged...

They then went on in the last half of that article to state why they feel it is them and why they  feel Jesús will find in favour of them.....rather presumptuous of them I thought ....

Again..David was annoited and deliberately disobeyd Jehovah ...for his own selfish gain....just because you are annoited...or have been invited does not mean you are perfect...and besides many are invited and few chosen....

what would you have done if you knew about David’s sin....how would you have sorted that out????

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

David deliberately committed adultery and murder, and was punished by Jehovah. 

So in that case the GB should be punished by Jesus Christ, as the power and authority are in his hands now. 

If they need punishing or discipline ...off course..just as you and I....in fact they will carry a heavier punishment as they are teachers....but that is in his jurisdiction to decide..not yours or mine...keep in mind....

Aaron built the golden calf and did not even take responsibility for what he did but conviemtly  blamed the people....what he did was massively wrong ...yet when Moses came down from the mountain ...he still offered a chance for all this committing spiritual idolatry another chance by telling all those who stood for Jehovah to stand by his side.

Arrons  life was spared because he did...but more out of consideration for his brother Moses...nevertheless Moses/Jesus offered all those worshipping the Golden calf another chance at repentance...obviously a lot never took that.

The point being...the second man in charge did commit idolatry...yet was spared..it’s food for thought..

38 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Witness I take my hat off to you. you have worded it much better that I. 

Spirit directed Org eh ? So why do they get so much wrong. 

Probably the same reason David got so much wrong and Peter, Samson,Moses..oh and Jonah 

Lol...well I probably am a misfit...I smiled at that..but I think I will still follow Joshua’s and Kalebs example....they would have hated to see what Aaron was doing with the Golden calf...I’m sure they would have stood apart mentally and spiritually  from that...but they didn’t leave the camp....they showed great faith that Moses would come back...and I’m sure many were very confused at that time....I too will wait for Jesus to come down from the mountain....and correct his people...

I remember a number of personal accounts of sisters and brothers being put into German  concentration camps...they would often get taunted by their captors because those in leadership at that time...COs and Elders and even those in authority of the branch office betrayed them.....and those little sisters of no account and probably viewed as insignificant in the cong ...said.....”they may do as they wish..but for me...I will remain loyal to my God”

So this little old misfit will do the same....:).....along with many many others who will stand firm and loyal to their God and Christ....You have underestimated so many of us...

.

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe it's not that Jehovah needs me or others to make complaint, BUT maybe Jehovah wants me and others to make complaint. Now that could be a sifting of those that want a clean Org to those that are prepared to remain in a disgusting Org. Jehovah often has heard the voices of His people and then acted on their behalf. 

So in your opinion what does Jehovah think of the way the GB and Elders deal with the important problems within the JW Org ? Because in my opinion Jehovah is withholding His Holy Spirit from the GB and the Org at this time.  

However i do like that bit where you say "i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors  .... " At least you recognise that there are errors, thank you. 

And you would say that Jesus 'had a big mouth' too then ? The way he spoke to the Pharisees many times. Truth hurts, so you can say i have a big mouth and I will understand your pain. 

Is it me that is making the preaching work harder, or the Pedophile elders and others that bring Jehovah's name into disrepute ? Come on, open your eyes, it's earthwide news now. From that viewpoint it doesn't need me to add to it, people out there already know. I don't get involved in the protests but i know there are protests in many countries about the problems within the JW Org. Has Jehovah planned all this ? Is it serving a purpose ? Is it a testing ? But why would anyone want to be part of such an Org that has known about these things for between 20 and 50 years, and not done anything about it apart from keep records ?  

"you have too much bitterness John" Indeed. Have you been a victim of Child Abuse ? If not then you have no idea. 

You have no idea who you are speaking with John..I and my family have been victims of much worse than child abuse ....it is you who have no idea...and it’s is because I have had a spear thru my heart...that I feel I can speak as I do...

there are bad men in positions of authority....wolves In Sheeps clothing..heartless and cruel men who are drunk on their own power over a cong..

having said that ..most are not like that....but why are you expecting g such a clean org now....that is impossible..we won’t be clean and acceptable until after the thousand years...at the moment we are in critical times hard to deal with...he encourages us to keep putting up with each other..because he knew how hard and difficult such things would be..

i am terribly sorry if you had been a victim of abuse...many of us are victims of the most severe abuse...abuse is not always of the sexual kind.......some have not survived.....

there is much wrong amongst his people...but the point is....you didn’t dedicate yourself to an org.....you should have dedicated yourself the the Almighty Creator......

none of us have the answers...you don’t..nor I...only Jehovah will fix this..and thus faith must come Into to play..

now I must take my leave from you....as you are not good for me....you open my wounds and the festering starts all over again...you promote bitterness and restment....and they are my fall down...Ive had to work very hard at understanding why Jehovah allows such horrendous things amongst his people.....the answers are there John...but I know you are past wanting that.......even tho I know it is possible  to heal....and see the big picture...Again I am sincely sorry and anguished at your pain from abuse...

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So exposing people for Child Abuse now becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Exposing the GB for their heartless rules, their false information and misguidance becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ? 

Well Jesus was accused of much that wasn't true about him. So accuse me of what you will. God himself will sort out whichever Organisation HE wishes to use, be it the JW Org or not. But if it is the JW org then it will need a lot of cleaning out first. Meanwhile you can carry on being a puppet if you wish, but not a puppet for God, only a puppet for the GB. 

Aaaah now you have become a personal judge of me....are you yourself now not becoming self righteous and pious in your words and manner...time to step down of your self made throne John.

Jehovah does not need you to point out or make known the errors of his people....do you honestly think he needs any human to do that....do you honestly think he did not foresee and know full well what would happen amongst his own people....why do you think he warned us in Peter that he would start judgement with his own household...

Do you think Jehovah cannot clean his own house....

A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

john did Jehovah clean out the Jewish System before he placed the messiah amongst them....your reasoning is flawed....

you are persecuting your brothers and sisters because you are not balanced in your views or thinking....you are making their scriptural command of teaching people the basic truths harder..and you are sowing seeds of doubt without any balanced knowledge as to why things are the way they are....it’s a extremely serious thing you are doing.

i know of elders who have someone’s blood on their hands because of the way they treated that person....but you also could find yourself in such a situation as well.....

i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors and not even acknowledging the wonderful basic truths Jehovah’s witnesses have been responsible for...

you have too much bitterness John...and it has made you unbalanced in your judgement and comprehension...and actually ..your bitterness is probably justified...but it is running you....controlling you....and thus you are it’s slave and not the free man you think you are.

I’m not blind John..I have just become master over my resentment anger and hurt....otherwise I would be like you....persecuting my brothers and sisters...

I deleted this post as I think it went to the wrong person...I find it hard to navigate this forum ..

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I left the JW Org at the beginning of this year due to the massive amount of Child Abuse / Pedophilia that has been and still is allowed to go on in the JW Org. 

All you say about serving God, be it Yahweh or Jehovah, had no connection to the JW Org. This is something I'm trying to get into people's heads. The JW Org does not 'own' God. God, through Jesus Christ is available to anyone, not just through your GB. 

The GB have in fact put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. They have said many times in the past, and it has been shown here on this website, that the GB have said, people can only be saved through Armageddon by being part of JW Org and by doing exactly what the GB say. Now that is putting themselves in the place of Jesus and its totally wrong. 

Yes it is John ...just as it was wrong of Arron to build the golden calf in the wilderness...some witnesses seem to live in fairy land and think we as a people are so different to the Israelites of the wilderness when in fact we are the same. 

But don't let it escape your notice .... just as Moses did finally come down of that mountain and sort that wayward people out...so too will jesus come back and sort us lot out,,, 

so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power ... what is escaping your notice is when those in the wilderness were directed to go forth and take the land ...only Joshua and Kaleb stood firm .. the rest had no faith in their God ... who were they ....they were the cheiftans of the tribes..men in authority ...they were not just any little Israelite man from the camp..they were probably men that were hand picked by Moses ...yet their error brought calamity down on their own people ....these things are relayed to us for an example ..to teach us ....can we really expect it to be so different today.

instead of causing division and doubt why not consider Joshua's and Kalebs insight and understanding... why not imitate their faith and encourage those in this confusing time that Jesus will return just as Moses did and sort this mess out and bring about justice and peace to the hurt sheep ...

The message bible is not my bible john ..I use lots of different translations but I do agree with you it can be fairly loose ..it was written for those who have never read a bible before and like simple phrases 

it actuallt advises its readers that it is just a introduction bible and should be used as a stepping stone to other study translations ..sometimes I like it ..other times I find it hopeless ..yes the GB have appeared to have sat them selves in  the seat of Moses .

we will all stand on a individual basis before Jehovah wether GB or not. 

But  you feel as you do..give yourself a break and allow some peace within yourself  ..find yourself a path that gives you that..get on with your life and enjoy it .

17 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes but some pretend to have authority, so they demand attention. Whereas others are just honest in their thoughts and comments. 

Yes I know what you are saying....but the thing is..Jehovah is using them to get the job done (preaching work)...he is backing that work....and he will use whatever he has at his disposal  to achieve that...for as you know he cannot bring the end until the preaching work is accomplished...but having respect for what he is using and allowing doesn’t mean we are gullible....we still must be like the beroeans who tested out Paul before they put faith in him....it’s hard but doable ..

Years ago when I was struggling with anger and resentment a brother shared this scripture with me...I’ll write it as written In the message bible...

AMOS 5:13,14

Justice is a lost cause Evil is epidemic Decent people throw up their hands, protest and Rebuke are useless a waste of time..14 seek good and not evil and live.....

5 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Explain please.

I don't pretend to be of the Anointed. I am not a puppet Elder.  I am open about the fact that I don't understand many things in God's word. 

I'm not asking anyone to follow me. 

We ALL have the power to stumble another....no matter who we Are...