Thinking

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I just paid over $39 for a book. And even though it's well over 600 pages, I don't know what the author was thinking. It's $55 in softcover and $65 in hardback. It's the kind of price you'd pay for a book of academic research.

Anyway I'd have to say that, after about 60 pages that I read this morning, it is clearly the most comprehensive, thorough, well-referenced, and seemingly accurate account I have ever read. It is very balanced, so far, and doesn't try to create negative "drama" out of guesswork. I've seen other authors, even Witnesses, do this sometimes.

Even recently, I've tried to get hold of many of the resources he uses and was unable for many of them. I do have a few pages of resources, that Persson doesn't seem to know about (or doesn't use), but they would only confirm his own research, as far as I can tell. He mentions getting some research from collectors of Bible Student history, and a person named Mike Castro in Rhode Island. I don't know if anyone knows whether Mike Castro is a Witness, but someone pointed him out to me when I was looking for a rare document (special Wt supplement not in the bound volumes because it only went to some subscribers), and he sent it to me in PDF format immediately, no questions asked. I'm afraid to find out that he might be an apostate, so I didn't ask 😮.

Anyway, the whole book title is: Rutherford's Coup: The Watchtower Succession Crisis of 1917 and Its Aftermath

https://www.amazon.com/Rutherfords-Coup-Watchtower-Succession-Aftermath/dp/1778143016/ref=sr_1_1?crid=10XAMD6TVT7N3&keywords=rud+persson&qid=1652964472&sprefix=%2Caps%2C53&sr=8-1

So far, I'm impressed. But one should be warned that the author, Rud Persson (pronounced Rude Person 😁) is a former Witness. Don't know whether he was DF'd, but he does say that he worked with Carl Olof Jonsson on research in the past.

Oh no not Carl Olaf Jonsson….that just wrecked it for me…

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

The direction of movement of the WTS organization after Russell's death may be called by some as a distance and apostasy from what was established as "the truth" by Russell. This Russell is now called a "messenger" in the JW circle, and is likened to John the Baptist as the messenger of Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, today's WTJWorg opted for an explanation in which every "old truth" was never a "lie" but only a stepping stone to the "new truth".
Certainly, such an idea of WTJWorg is unbearable, because the truth cannot be built on false theses. Can false theses lead to true doctrine? Obviously, this is possible in the theory and practice of "Rutherford's organization".

If there is already a tendency to compare and give a certain meaning to Russell that he is like John, then we can ask ourselves what “doctrinal errors” did John make while preaching Jesus? And how can this be applied to Russell?
The comparison of GB with Jesus is unknown. I don’t think it’s ever been so openly portrayed in the WTJWorg literature, but it is hidden in a previous comparison / illustration and in an attempt to portray historical figures from the near and far history of the organization.

I have never heard or read the GB likened to Jesus….and I dont know anyone who even thinks that?

1 hour ago, WalterPrescott said:

Even Jesus was looked at as an apostate by some. There are differences. The most misunderstood word by many is its application. Russell, was learning something entirely new, just like Martin Luther. Instead of revision, he explored how to refine reformation as a Congregationalist.

What can be considered old truth, is what makes revisions possible. The point of those revisions are of course, reform. Expand the knowledge of truth, and not be bugged down on old light.

If it didn't, the Bible Student symbol of the cross and crown would still be part of the Org. Rutherford's interaction with Russell cannot be fully known. These books make a lot of speculation and assumptions. Many things could have been said in private within those two that not even the board of directors would have known. Remember, Rutherford was an attorney. Confidentiality was high on his mind.

Like the booklet "The Temple" specifies, The Chicago Class Bible Students, AFFILIATED with the International Bible Student Association has increased within a few years from a mere handful to six hundred people.

This proves, there were many collations, associated with the ISBA, of which, they conducted themselves independently. Rutherford made a change that no one from the old guard liked. Was it a coup? NO! Since there had been some within all those associations dissatisfied with Russell even before Rutherford entered the picture.

This book is no different from that of Shults. They just want to find gullible people to sell.

No one that I know of made that claim from his Temple, or Tabernacle. However, G-d does works in mysterious ways.

When someone says that God works in mysterious ways, they often mean that God does something completely opposite of our expectations. There are many places in the Bible that tell stories of God's direction in someone's life that leads that person down a road they never thought they would tread. Sometimes God tells His people to do things that seem strange or even meaningless, but end up being a redemptive or victorious part of their story.

The only church I know of that compared itself with Jesus was the Pope. Each church needs strong spiritual leaders.

 

 

That was a great answer…you have a lot of knowledge and experience…and express it so well…

Sometimes it’s like you are two different people…this one…I really like..I actually LEARN from such comments.

4 hours ago, Pudgy said:

… I only finished about half my previous post before it closed out the edit function, and refused to save ….. sigh …. I will continue it later, perhaps tomorrow.

 

Well pudgy why dont you try the closed group….yeah some might find you a bit prickly or you might find others prickly…..sort of like it Is in  real life…one is allowed to disagree over there Too….or DONT reply to him…..you can pull the plug on him.

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

… I only finished about half my previous post before it closed out the edit function, and refused to save ….. sigh …. I will continue it later, perhaps tomorrow.

 

You really dont need to go thru all that nor write such to defend yourself…or should I say there should not be a need to.

Unfortunately anybody can come on here and slander and slander and slander…..again…and again…I dont know who runs this site…but I would imagine there has to be some legal responsibility for permitting said slander .

If the person who runs this site is a witness then they really need to get their act together……if the person who runs this site does not like witness’s..then it makes sense.

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

@Thinking, Eoin Joyce is the name of a person from UK (England) who contributed his comments here for several years. He indicated often that he was fed up with the lack of spiritual value in most of these discussions. (Which is all the more obvious lately.) He changed his account name from Eoin Joyce to "Gone Fishing" when he stopped commenting for a few months. Then he changed it to "Outta Here" when he got even more serious about leaving here for good. I believe that, by now, he has completely left the forum.

I can't hazard a guess as to why WalterPrescott assumed that someone from Australia was from the same neck of the woods as someone from England. But he has done this before, under several of his own previous account names, where he will make wild guesses about who is really the same as someone else. I think it is related to the fact that it's quite obvious to many of us when he tries to pass himself off as a different person, thinking perhaps that no one will notice that he is the same as AllenSmith/BillyTheKid/NoisySrecko/Dmitar and about 30 other different attempts to disguise himself under different account names.

For a while, he kept many of these identities simultaneously, and I could actually see the evidence for when he logged out from one name and logged back in with another. He tried to keep up the appearance of some intentional differences between some of those accounts, but he sometimes messed it up and used a characteristic of one account on another one.  For this new "WalterPrescott" account, he has borrowed a feature from @Cos, a Trinitarian, who often signed his posts with the fish symbol: "<><". Walter has already pointed this fish out as if it is evidence he isn't really "Allen Smith" but he probably doesn't realize that this kind of thing doesn't really work when there so many other giveaways, including a complete inability to "clothe himself with a new personality."

Oh thank you as I hadn’t a clue…I do remember outta here..but I thought that was from another forum…I don’t go back as most of you on this forum,,,,so thanks for setting me straight…much appreciated 

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

Thinking…. Do you have ANY idea what Wally is talking about, (Elon Joyce)?

He does not appear to know, himself (?).

No I don’t…

54 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:

It's a wild kitten just like you mate!! Comes from your neck of the woods!! <><

I’m not a mate…I’m a Sheila …

14 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

No assumptions for the Three Stooges, Arauna, thinking (Elon Joyce), Anna. Sexist, no! That's a label you yourself have placed before G-d, don't blame others for your personal faults.

Who’s Elon Joyce?

10 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Note to readers: Almost all the above book covers shown are manufactured parodies of actual books of a more genteel nature.

Satire.

heh heh heh!

Well from now on pudgy you can now and go get jumped on….I’m done  with ya !!

28 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Here is one I forgot … and of course Australian children couldn’t relate, as Australia ha been disarmed.

I wouldnt say we were totally disarmed…we do have guns but nothing like you yanks have ….I carn’t even hardly believe that’s a kids book…shesssh!

.

4 hours ago, Pudgy said:

No, it’s true! They paid $400 for the 20 volume set of encyclopedias, when among our contemporaries, that was a month’s pay!

Good grief …no wonder we are all screwed up…propaganda machine at its finest…..get ‘‘em while their young..

we didnt get them down under…or maybe our  politicians  imported them for their kids ..that would explain a few things.

15 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

My parents bought me a 20 volume Encyclopedia before I could read, but I gravitated to those 25 cent hardboard covered children's books popular in the early 50s.

Surely this is not true???

12 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I was profoundly saddened by the 1984 movie “The Killing Fields“ about the escape of a Cambodian from Cambodia during the Vietnam war evacuation. The Cambodian actor, who won an Academy award for his performance, played himself in the movie. Later on, after surviving incredible hardship and death, he moved to Los Angeles where he was killed in a robbery.

Yes I remember the film and this time…I also read the autobiography…JUST STAY ALIVE  MY SON……These accounts and many others ..always got me thinking where was God in all of this..and how could he just watch this and not help them……and I could not wonder at how others could watch this film and not ask the same questions ….these questions eventually lead me to the truth…or to a people who had the answers…and yes Pudgy I also was profoundly affected by such things….

I made my 11 yr old watch the movie ..RABBIT PROOF FENCE….against her will….explaining  she had to learn about our history…in the end she was grateful.

I would like to show them the KILLING FEILDS…if I can find it…again I will have to force them or bribe them….as they know nothing of this history…

Another one I would like them to read is a novel ..autobiography of THE FORGOTTEN SOLDIER….a Germans perspective as a foot soldier as they invaded Russia ….again these things they know nothing off.

Our  children know so little of the real world…once they do…then they will appreciate Jehovah and the hope he gives us.

thanks for that Aruana..

6 hours ago, Amidstheroses said:

Will look for that interview - thanks 

Make sure you get his latest..he’s a very brave humble and honourable man…I do hope the GB hears it…not that it matters as the harm is done and cannot be undone.

Makes me understand the wording of….no flesh left…..and the need for Jehovah to step in for the sake of chosen ones…..

9 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Well, it’s been about nine hours since someone other than myself made a comment so to fill in the time until someone else makes a comment, I will just post my latest meme.

It’s a variation of ones that I’ve posted before, with a slight twist, based on things that have been discussed here.

When Jesus said that “this generation will not pass away until all these things occur……”, it’s my firm belief that the understanding that the apostles had at the time this was spoken, is the understanding that we should have today.

HOW DID THEY UNDERSTAND JESUS’  WORDS?

I have no idea what that is, and pragmatically I suspect it is already occurred, and whether it’s in the past, present, or future, there’s absolutely nothing I can do about it.

(satire alert)

Actually sometimes you talk like that blackboard…but hey …who’s got it all right..

37 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Actually, if you listen to the words of ‘Sympathy for the Devil’ they are not objectionable at all. They are an exposure of the Devil’s M. O, the great wickedness people are capable of.

But I had to draw the line somewhere. I couldn’t very well gush on about ‘Sympathy for the Devil,’ as though I were a fan. Nor did I listen to the words for many decades, so it took me forever to realize just what the theme was.

I still love meatloaf….never heard sympathy for the devil..

58 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

The “for babies” series is real and available from Amazon, hopefully before your toddler makes an unstable fusion bomb.

Wow..that’s a great idea…hmmmm

22 hours ago, Pudgy said:

 

Fearful signs InThe heavens and the earth…have you ever wondered what will happen with all this stuff….I have thought he would use it at his appointed time.

Just for the record I dont understand Quantum entanglement…but Juuust enough to use it…as it says in your pic….and as Einstein said….it’s spooky..he didn’t understand it nor could he explain it…

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Poor boy. Here’s a bone for you. I wasn’t sure this pic had a use but it seems it might work here:

Sheesh! What a bunch of nut cakes! As goofy as any nasty here

Never have I seen Jehovah’s Witnesses listed directly below Gangsta Rappers.

Well at least we are one notch above country music…

I would make the brothers do that block ….

6 hours ago, Amidstheroses said:

https://cairnsnews.org/2022/04/09/who-ihr-treaty-will-override-constitutions-of-australia-and-america/

It’s a good local paper and I’m surprised they are allowed to get away with so much….fortunately….thanks for the share.

I would hazard a guess 99 percent of Australians haven’t a clue about this…..I envy them to a degree…ignorance can be bliss for a time…..Still if Geert Vandeem Bosche is right about the you know what …( on the high wire interview ) best to be prepared as well as we can.

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

.

Not me ….I’m busy using Quantum Entaglement  

6 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Isn’t the Society building a hundred million dollar movie and video production facility close to Ramapo New York?
I admit I have lost track since Caleb and Sophia graduated from high school, and started working.

I thought that was being built over here,,

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In the ancient Israeli congregation, rich people and the nobility had slaves.
In the new WTJWorg congregation, religious leaders have volunteers.

After the volunteer workers invest their labor and money in building the JW hall, GB sells it and keeps the money in the corporation.

Don’t let it unsettle you…after seven years they will have their freedom with something to help with their new way of life.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Most Croatian citizens are richer than those living in Africa, that is true. But we are actually among the poorer EU countries.
When an ordinary and average JW with a modest income gives money and / or work to build a KH, and then the WTJWorg sells that same hall, without a congregational resolution and without any monetary or material reimbursement to those brothers and sisters, then that is very rude and dishonest. And such examples are not lacking.

Bethel could at least invite them to a barbecue, drinks and cakes to celebrate the sale. :))

Can we drink till we are merry?