Thinking

No - I think us plebs want to know when people are trying to bamboozle us.  I get suspicious when I see the same characteristics in the writing. But I do not like to do that kind of research....to see who it is. So I welcome it when someone points out that someone is toying with us - which is a deceit and unchristian.

If it is Rutherford’s coup and much too expensive are you sure it is not really Perrson’s coup?

Actually, it's Russell's position. He states it clearly when he writes his own autobiographical statements in the Watchtower. But let's talk about Russell under another topic. This topic should really be more about Rutherford, and what happened shortly after Russell died.
You are very correct about that. And this is one of the reasons why I maintain that opinion about the stronger links to Adventism than some will admit. But again, I don't want to divert from the topic just yet. There have already been more than enough questions and comments about Rutherford that deserve better clarification, before we start off on new topics about Russell. Of course, feel free to say what you will about it, but know that it might end up getting moved under a mostly-Russell topic, rather than a mostly Rutherford topic

According to MacMillan, the Watchtower had gone broke by the end of 1914, and MacMillan explains that this is why the usual delegation of convention delegates coudn't even travel to the conventions at that time.
The tone of the following indicates that it is no doubt from an apostate source, but I copied it several years ago from a forum because it tends to show why MacMillan and other Bible Students would say that "Russell WAS the Society." It's actually just an excerpt from a page that is about 5 times longer. But it also indicates that it was in 1917 just after Russell's death, when Rutherford sold off buildings to reestablish the bank accounts of the WTS. It was not when Rutherford and the Board were jailed in 1918.
In January 1909, when Charles Taze Russell relocated his religion business to Brooklyn, New York, to get away from the Pennsylvania courts, it was necessary to form a New York corporation in order to conduct certain business activities in the state of New York -- specifically, to hold title to real estate. At the same time, Charles Taze Russell also deemed it absolutely necessary that legal matters be arranged in such a fashion that Russell retained absolute financial control over the new corporation.
 
In February 1909, PEOPLES PULPIT ASSOCIATION (later renamed The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) was formed by Charles Taze Russell, along with 40 handpicked loyal followers, including Bethelites, who supposedly each purchased one or more shares at $1000.00 per share. Charles Taze Russell was elected "President-For-Life", while all other corporate officers were to be elected annually. To further ensure Russell's absolute financial control, NO donations nor other income went to the People's Pulpit Association. All financial income and donations went through the books of The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. As "overkill", to make absolutely certain of such, the People's Pulpit Association did NOT even have a bank account for several years.
 
The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania paid all debts of the People's Pulpit Association. The People's Pulpit Association was kept totally and completely in debt to The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, including the holding of full mortgages on each piece of real estate purchased by the People's Pulpit Association. Thus, if there were ever a mutiny, Charles Taze Russell controlled everything of financial worth through his control of the Pennsylvania corporation.
 
Interestingly, in February 1909, Charles Taze Russell indicated that "we" had recently purchased "Brooklyn Bethel", at 124 Columbia Heights, for $24,000.00 (along with two other unidentified properties and their costs), but that "friends of the truth" had had to loan the money to "we" at the "cheapest" possible annual rate of 5% interest, and that those "friends" held a $24,000.00 mortgage on the property. In 1913, during the "Property Tax" court case, Watch Tower Society Treasurer, William Van Amburgh, testified that there was still a $24,000.00 mortgage on the property, and that the mortgage holder was the Watch Tower Society of Pennsylvania. Additionally, Van Amburgh indicated that the Watch Tower Society of Pennsylvania also held a $50,000.00 mortgage on 122 Columbia Heights, but for some reason that he could not explain, that mortgage had never been publicly "recorded", thus could not be viewed by outsiders. The WatchTower Society of Pennsylvania also held a mortgage on the Hicks Street Brooklyn Tabernacle -- initially $17,500.00, but thereafter increased to $25,000.00 to cover financed improvements.
 
Soon after unpacking, Pastor Russell began buying up both adjacent and nearby Columbia Heights properties, including the 1910-11 construction of a 9-story residence/dining hall behind the main offices, whose construction plans had to be vastly downsized due to complaints from neighboring properties that the planned skyscraper would block their views of the river and Manhattan.
 
In 1912, Pastor Russell quietly made a significant real estate purchase in Manhattan -- near Broadway and Central Park. On 63rd Street, the builder of a large new three-story theater had gotten himself into financial troubles, and was forced to sale the partially completed property .... That property became Russell's "New York City Temple", where religious services were conducted along with multiple daily showings of the Photo-Drama starting in January 1914. What received little or no publicity from Pastor Russell was the fact that Russell also purchased the adjacent 10-story mixed occupancy former hotel building, which was rented out as apartments, offices, and retail space. Typically, there were multiple straw transactions before the property was finally transferred into the hands of the People's Pulpit Association in November 1913. As all of PPA's properties, these two new properties also were fully encumbered with full mortgages to retain all financial power within Russell's hands via his total control of the WatchTower Society of Pennsylvania. An article in the WATCHTOWER magazine, which did not mention the purchase of the adjacent building, boasted that the theater building was "worth" nearly a half million dollars. Actually, in 1915, the assessed value of the theater building was $220,000.00, and the assessed value of the former hotel building was only $105,000.00. Those two large Manhattan properties were cashed out by Judge Rutherford after Russell's death, in 1917, for $330,000.00 (roughly $6,250,000.00 in 2016 dollars ...).

It's a different topic that we've already discussed at greater length elsewhere. But you should notice that Russell was saying he WAS a Congregationalist. That's the denomination in which he was raised, and some influence remained. But it's the one he left, and he states that he pretty much had to start over, to "start from scratch."
I don't think it's that simple either. Neither does Schulz. But Schulz finds ample evidence that Russell admits to his greater affinity to "Age to Come" believers. As you noted, this doesn't mean Russell agreed with them in all respects. Russell continued to progress in his beliefs and adjusted some of his own previous beliefs along the way.
It's true that even a lot of Witnesses also assume that Russell was not much different than a Second Adventist with updated dates. As I'm sure you know, the full answer starts with a lot that was borrowed from Adventism but goes well beyond into Russell's own studies. And you are right that a lot of non-Adventist churches were "adventist" in the sense that they all expected a "second advent." You could even expect Christ's return to be imminent and not be part of any Adventist church. But you go too far in that last quoted statement. Even the current Proclaimers book references some links to Adventism.
Although Schulz agrees with you on this point, I have found additional evidence showing even more links to Second Adventism than Schulz admits. Some of it also shows up from contributors to his site.

Thank you…I know we dont often take into consideration these all lived  a whole different world and era….what was okay back them…would never be legally possible today nor even an accepted thing in the community,,,
And again some of this is here say or passed down..some written and with proof …all I know even tho I prefer Russell’s demeanour and his will for how things should go forward….we owe Rutherford credit for many things,,,,but I still think he unnecessarily laid the ground work for beating the sheep and making the truth harsh…just not what Russell wanted,

He might not answer so I will ….probably the books like Tarzan of the apes edgar rice may have outsold  Russell and Ruthfords books. …that’s what Jesus said…not many would listen…and the apostasy you talk of was what they thought was wrong coming out of BTG with all that garbage still on their backs…and just being human I guess…personally if I have found Russell the genteel one and much more humble than  Rutherford ,…Rutherford changed quickly things so important and  spiritually  correct about Jesus and the ark and waters of the flood..represent him to it now representing the org...now one comments on that here but the ramifications of such a massive blunder and probably pride pushed so many good brothers and sister away..
I actually think and I could be wrong the beating of the sheep began then…I’m so relieved the modern day GB returned that to the original understanding,,,,,mind you some things Russel thought and wrote needed to be changed…sorry for butting in..hope that was okay and I hope Walter answers you NICLEY!

Thank you…I know we dont often take into consideration these all lived  a whole different world and era….what was okay back them…would never be legally possible today nor even an accepted thing in the community,,,
And again some of this is here say or passed down..some written and with proof …all I know even tho I prefer Russell’s demeanour and his will for how things should go forward….we owe Rutherford credit for many things,,,,but I still think he unnecessarily laid the ground work for beating the sheep and making the truth harsh…just not what Russell wanted,

I already gave a short answer with my opinion on this question. I found it funny that I just got to a part of Persson's book where he answers the same question. It's unbelievably long. I just found it funny that someone put so much work into answering that question and even draws on some material where I never would have thought to look. In one case I didn't even know that the material existed. 
Persson uses a couple of the same ideas that I used in my answer. But many more, too. I don't think it's at all important to read all of what I'm about to paste below, but I wanted to let you know that it's only about HALF the information he actually uses in the book to answer the same question:

He might not answer so I will ….probably the books like Tarzan of the apes edgar rice may have outsold  Russell and Ruthfords books. …that’s what Jesus said…not many would listen…and the apostasy you talk of was what they thought was wrong coming out of BTG with all that garbage still on their backs…and just being human I guess…personally if I have found Russell the genteel one and much more humble than  Rutherford ,…Rutherford changed quickly things so important and  spiritually  correct about Jesus and the ark and waters of the flood..represent him to it now representing the org...now one comments on that here but the ramifications of such a massive blunder and probably pride pushed so many good brothers and sister away..
I actually think and I could be wrong the beating of the sheep began then…I’m so relieved the modern day GB returned that to the original understanding,,,,,mind you some things Russel thought and wrote needed to be changed…sorry for butting in..hope that was okay and I hope Walter answers you NICLEY!

The portion you quoted is all the more potent in tying the League of Nations to a then-current political expression of God's Kingdom. In fact, it's in those portions that one can see a greater affinity with the position the Federal Council of Churches was stating. I'll simply re-quote the portion that you quoted, highlighting the points you highlighted:
VIEWS FROM THE WATCH TOWER, PITTSBURGH, PA., FEBRUARY 15, 1919
With the great Peace Conference actually in progress and with the League of Nations a virtual reality, Bible Students are in a position to see more in these two world-events than mere evolution of human thought and action.
So what did the WT mean when it said that the League could be seen as more than just something merely of human thought and action? Was it from the Devil? Or was it, rather, to be seen as a part of the strides of divine Providence that persons with spiritual insight could see as part of the outworking of the Messianic Kingdom? The answer is in the Watchtower's next sentence:
They are but the strides of divine Providence in this "great day of Jehovah. Blind indeed are all who cannot appreciate that this is the day of preparation for Messiah's kingdom, in which a perfect League of nation will exist, yea, a binding together in common interest of all kindred and peoples, and in which the Golden Rule will be the law supreme.
So one would be "blind" (without spiritual insight) not to notice that this League was providing an earthly, political expression of what will be perfected in God's Kingdom rule from heaven. In fact, it is to be seen as part of the "preparation" for the same work that the Kingdom will do. I think a lot of people are surprised that C.T.Russell had taught that so many of the contemporary modern inventions and even political changes in the world were to be seen as "preparation" for God's Kingdom on earth. Recall that Russell and Rutherford believed they were already living in the Dawn of the Millennium. The 1,000 year reign of Christ had already started. New inventions and discoveries were coming at them fast, all this would be put to more and more use as the Millennium continued. These ideas were repeated very clearly in the 1917 book, The Finished Mystery, too.
While the Lord's people are tremendously interested in the outcome of the present Peace Congress and in the League of Nations which may there be born, nevertheless we look with still greater longing to the time foretold by the prophets of Israel when the kindred of earth shall say one to another: Let us go up to the mountain of the Lord. To the house of the God of Jacob and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths," at which time "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."-Isaiah 2 :2-4; Micah 4:1-4. P.[6389]
Just like the Federal Council of Churches (FCC), the League of Nations provided an earthly, political expression of God's Kingdom, not to replace it, but to signify the proper political direction and pattern that only God's heavenly kingdom could fully accomplish. You don't get that from the oft-quoted short telegram that the President and Secretary of the FCC sent to Woodrow Wilsom. But you see it clearly in the context of similar references to God's Kingdom throughout the bulletins of the Federal Council of Churches at that time. Speaking of the aims and goals of their own organization during this same time, they said:

In fact, those obsequious words to President Wilson about the League were much more subdued in the longer resolution that reaffirmed their faith in the value of the League. Notice how it changes to the political expression of "this new idealism," and only considers it an earnest endeavor to establish the principles of the Kingdom of God, etc., etc.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Federal_Council_Bulletin/lEVQAQAAMAAJ
The big problem with the "FCC" was that they were hypocrites in supporting the war and would still speak of how proper (though difficult) it was for the churches to teach their members that it was OK to kill (in times of war). Russell had already made good progress towards neutrality, even though it wasn't perfect. And Rutherford had spent a lot of the time when the US was involved in WWI trying to help Bible Students get ministerial advantages as conscientious objectors to war.
The February 15, 1919 Watch Tower was a short-lived mistake during a time when Rutherford's opponents took advantage of it to claim that Rutherford was the offshoot, the apostate, and his opponents were the ones sticking fast to the present truth.
So I'm curious then. What was it do you think that Rutherford found "wonderful" about the League? What was it you think that he was "admiring" about the League?

I don't get the insult at all. In fact, I think you also came to the same conclusion about the book. And who says anyone got upset because your rebuttal is "loud"? I don't even know what you mean by that, but I am certainly not upset by a rebuttal. That's what we are here for. You might be aware of things in this book by Persson that are wrong. And I'm sure that would be interesting to some persons here. Definitely it would be interesting to me, at least.
Exactly. I'm glad we agree on this, too.
I've seen only a few apostate books, but I agree that they can be filled with distorted views. I'm curious as to whether you have any specific examples that show that B.W.Schulz' research is sloppy or distorted, by the way. To me he seems to agree with your own philosophy, that one should trace down all of the offshoots if possible, and the beliefs of all the people coming into or out of the organization. His books rarely reach into history much more recent than about 1890, so far, but you see the same philosophy on his website/blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com
That's not a a problem. Would be happy to hear what you have to say about the long quote you made from James Parkinson's The Bible Student Movement in the Days of C.T. Russell.

Of course. I get it now. I get the impression that you have probably not read B W Schulz books then. I have all three of them and have read two of them (Barbour, and Separate Identity V.1). I have not completed Volume 2.
Schulz actually sides more with you on the idea that Russell did NOT consider himself as following in the footsteps of Adventists. Russell only would admit that the Advent Movement was used by Jehovah, as was Miller himself (according to the Watch Tower). Schulz makes it clear that Russell didn't consider himself Adventist, but as Russell himself indicated, closer to the "Age To Come" believers.

That was only his personal opinion.  If I recall correctly he had a lot of verbal abuse - and he went too far!    None of us wanted him off!   The only reason people are kicked off here is when they really go over the boundaries of mild abuse to extreme abuse. 

Fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom!  Not of people..... 

I can think of a solution to that little problem.

The qualification “in effect” makes the quote not a direct quote from the Watchtower,  but a comparison of similarity.(?) of Christendom’s sentiments and the Watchtower’s sentiments.
At least that is how I read it.

I suppose JWI will clarify.
I do know that the 9-1/2 years the Society was affiliated with the United Nations as an NGO, there were puff pieces in the Awake! Magazine about the United Nations.

 
What the NGO supporting articles stated was precisely fair and accurate, but the puffery was to fulfill their obligations to the UN to show they supported the IDEALS of the UN.
My guess is the articles by themselves were sent to the UN, and not the whole Awake!.

The Who just may be my favorite group of all time. Lots of memorable tunes. Like
I went back to my mother
I said, "I'm crazy, Ma, help me"
She said, "I know how it feels, son
'Cause it runs in the family"
Just taking bout my g-g-generation. I can see for miles and miles an miles.

I’m not a mate…I’m a Sheila …

I would be asking just what sort of pressure he had been under and for how long …and from whom…..and is this in our historical publications….and if not…why not.

Paul Samuel Leo Johnson Born Paul Samuel Leo Levitsky
October 4, 1873 Titusville, Pennsylvania, US Died October 22, 1950(aged 77) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US Occupation Minister Years active 1898–1950 Known for Founder of the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement Notable work Epiphany Studies in the Scriptures Part of a series on Bible Students Communities Free Bible Students Laymen's Home Missionary Movement Publishing houses Dawn Bible Students Association Pastoral Bible Institute Publications The Dawn The New Creation Frank and Ernest (broadcast) Studies in the Scriptures The Photo-Drama of Creation Biographies Charles Taze Russell Jonas Wendell William Henry Conley Nelson H. Barbour Paul S. L. Johnson A. H. Macmillan J. F. Rutherford Conrad C. Binkele Beliefs Jehovah Nontrinitarianism Atonement Dispensationalism Sheol and Hades Resurrection Annihilationism Separations Jehovah's Witnesses  Christianity portal v t e Paul Samuel Leo (formerly Levitsky) Johnson (October 4, 1873 – October 22, 1950) was an American scholar and pastor, the founder of the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement. He authored 17 volumes of religious writings entitled Epiphany Studies in the Scriptures, and published two magazines from about 1918 until his death in 1950. The movement he created continues his work and publishes his writings, operating from Chester Springs, Pennsylvania.
He was born in Titusville, Pennsylvania on October 4, 1873, to Jewishparents who had recently immigrated from Poland. His father was a prominent Hebrew scholar,[citation needed] and eventually became president of the Titusville synagogue. His mother died when he was 12, and his father remarried, both of which caused him distress; he ran away from home several times.
He eventually converted to Christianity and joined the Methodist Church.[clarification needed]
In 1890, he entered the Capital University of Columbus, Ohio, and graduated in 1895 with high honors. Records in that University's Library show him enrolled as Paul Levitsky;[citation needed] he then went to the Theological Seminary of the Evangelical Lutheran Joint Synod of Ohioand graduated in 1898. He pastored a Lutheran church for a short time in Mars, Pennsylvania, and was then transferred back to Columbus, Ohio, at St. Matthew's Lutheran Church, which was later razed to make way for highway infrastructure. He soon built a new church building and was noted (by the Capitol University Synod)[citation needed] to have baptized more people and collected less money than any other pastor in the synod.
In May 1903 he left the Lutheran Church as a consequence of changes in his beliefs, and began fellowship with the Columbus Ecclesia of the Watch Tower Society. The Lutheran Church later claimed they had disfellowshipped him for heresy, but he had already left them of his own free will.[citation needed] A year later, Pastor Charles Taze Russellappointed him as a Pilgrim of the Bible Student movement. He eventually served as Russell's personal secretary. In time, he became Russell's most trusted friend and advisor.[citation needed]
Johnson suffered a nervous breakdown in 1910 a result of withstanding dissidents from within who were challenging the teachings of Pastor C.T. Russell on questions around his understanding of the new covenant and the ransom for all.
Johnson left the Watch Tower Society when Joseph F. Rutherford took over its direction after Russell's death. He founded the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement in 1920, and served on its board of directors from 1920 until his death on October 22, 1950.
 
Rutherford changed Russell’s understanding of the ark from that representing Jesus…to representing the organisation….and just from this fast cursory search it doesnt seem he was much of a friend to Rutherford as he was to Russell.

That was a great answer…you have a lot of knowledge and experience…and express it so well…
Sometimes it’s like you are two different people…this one…I really like..I actually LEARN from such comments.

We have a election tomorrow that’s probably why it’s been up and running mad the last few weeks…that and the monkey pox ….has all started and the COVID restrictions appear to be happening again soon…or threatened….

Wow that group sounds terrific…..I like Shultz tho I have not read of him much lately….I still have a book of his here to read….saving it for when and if the internet goes down…..I really hope those scholars are humble enough to let a little pooping seed picker in amongst them…. 

Jehovah's Witnesses > Notable JW's
See also: Celebrities who are/were JW's
Alive:
Brothers:
Mark Sanderson
William Malenfant
Don Adams
Karl A. Adams
Joel Adams
Michael Aronowitz
Ted Armstrong
Malcolm Allen
David Ianelli
Norman Mosure "Stormin' Norman" - District Overseer
George Couch (Bethelite 1957-2007)
Geoffrey Jackson (Governing Body Member)
Colin Quackenbush - Talk / Talk (still alive?)
Angelo Manera - District Overseer - Talk
Judah Schroeder
Gary Breaux oversees Richard Ashe
 
Sisters:
Simone Arnold Liebster

 
Deceased:
Pastor Charles Taze Russell (spouse) (foster daughter)
Joseph L. Russell
Alexander H MacMillan
George Storrs (Influenced Pastor Russell)
Henry Grew (Influenced Pastor Russell)
George Stetson (Influenced Pastor Russell)
Judge Rutherford / Joseph Franklin Rutherford
Nathan Knorr
Nelson H. Barbour (Influenced Pastor Russell Pre-Watch Tower)
Frederick William Franz
Raymond Franz
Theodore Jaracz
Daniel Sydlik
Carey Barber
Karl A Adams
Milton G. Henschel
Liebster, Max
John E. Barr
Leopold Engleitner
William 'Bible' Brown
W. Glen How
Grant Suiter
Hayden C. Covington
Olin R. Moyle
Ulysses Glass - Gilead Instructor
Bob Mackey
Benjamin Martin
J.R. Brown
Albert Schroeder
Charles Sinutko
Sisters:
Nancy Yuen
Lilian Gobitas Klose
Dorothy Covington, Wife of Civil Liberties Attorney Hayden Covington, Dies at 92
Jeanette (Jenny) Jackson

See also:
Bethel Personnel Assignments (2000)
 
Note - Over the past 15 years keeping information available, organized and online has proven very difficult. If you see a name above then there was once an entire article, photos and more about the person yet they have been lost through moves and technology changes. If you have lots of details about one of them please make a topic and start posting about them. I will link them up at a later date.