Thinking

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035.
Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and grandchildren
There are recent discussions on JW talk with brothers and sisters giving this old world no more than 5 years, and there are a few optimistic ones who say within a year. If you were to ask members of your congregation when do they think the end will come, you will hear similar sentiments. Many believe the pandemic will lead straight into the GT.
Of course logically, the end will come in someone's life time, and one day we will be right.
I admire Isaac Newton because his "prediction" defied the rules of wishing for it in one's lifetime. For that reason he seems more believable. But of course I hope he is wrong...because of course I would like it to happen in our lifetime! Oh, the irony of it! 😂
It is not wrong to hope for good things to come, what is wrong is our serving God only for that reason, and building our hope up to the point of expectation delayed making us sick.
You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

Yes. As Jesus Christ is my leader. (Of course I remember some elders questioning my methods once and when I showed the example Jesus set and how I was "following it closely" one said... yeah, but now you're tail-gaiting Jesus)
 

NOT ASHAMED OF JESUS CHRIST 
Jehovah's Witnesses very much do believe in Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses try to follow closely the
teachings and behavior of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:21)
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that no salvation occurs without Christ (Acts 4:12), that accepting Christ's sacrifice is a requirement for true worship, that every prayer must acknowledge Christ, that Christ is the King of God's Kingdom, that Christ is the head of the Christian congregation, that Christ is immortal and above every creature, even that Christ was the 'master worker' in creating the universe.
And when people become Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are baptized in the name of Jesus.—Matthew 28:18, 19.
Why Do Some Say That Jehovah's Witnesses Are Not Christians?
Many falsely claim that Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in Jesus. They may do this due to a misunderstanding or because they wish to depict Jehovah's Witnesses in a bad light. 
Jehovah's Witnesses believe in what the Bible says and what Jesus himself claimed...that Jesus is the SON OF God. Jesus is God's "only-begotten" son...the only being directly created by God. (John 1:18) 
Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God." (Rev. 3:14)
He is the "firstborn of all creation". (Col. 1:15)
Even though Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God Himself, this does not mean that they don't believe in Jesus! They believe that he is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. In fact, he is the second most important person in the Universe next to Jehovah God Himself.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/believe-in-jesus/

The untruth doesn't but understanding does. And then the untruth is corrected and becomes truth. It happens all the time. As understanding progresses so does knowledge. It happens in science, technology medicine, relationships etc. People are imperfect, they make mistakes.
At the beginning of the pandemic we were told that wearing masks is not necessary because it does not really offer any protection. Now we are all told to wear masks because it was found that they do indeed offer protection. Was saying that masks were not necessary, a lie? Essentially it was, but it was said in good faith. Now, as knowledge has progressed, we know better.
You do not allow anyone to make mistakes. Thankfully, Jehovah does as is shown in countless Bible accounts, and that is what matters.
I am sorry that you were ever subservient to men first, and God and Christ second. 

“I quote others only in order the better to express myself.”

― Michel de Montaigne, The Complete Essays

This system of things is rapidly approaching (if it hasn't already passed) the Vantasner Danger Meridian

read Genesis 11:6.... science and technology  is a danger to society now. they are using it in dangerous ways.... far more than we realize..... Jehovah will have to step in to save us from ourselves. 

Yes, of course.

I've read a lot of writings from the preachers from the 19th century and they all fail when it comes to the Trinity. They argue for it, but when they get beat, the do like Spurgeon and say:

Yes, willingness to change has to be there. The question is whether the change is coming from a more accurate understanding of scripture in context (biblical archaeology, textual analysis) or the change is coming from external forces in human society.
FYI https://archive.org/details/publicdiscussion00plum
The above is the text of a debate that took place in 1842 in Ridley, PA between Frederick Plummer and William McAlla - In it you can read the use of every argument for and against the trinity which I've ever read. (Of course I feel Plummer won hands down)

Are we not to be "imitators of God as beloved children"? I'm not a muslim who believes morality doesn't apply to God and that anything God does is by definition "good".
As to "playing the game" I'm saying that you're making accusations as if you have knowledge of the contents of another person's head. You don't, so you can't call it a "lie" unless you can prove the intent was to deceive.  The "game" is one you're playing. I just lobbed the ball back in your court and then you appear to be saying "See! You're playing the game!".
It could also be (like Jesus) that I'm answering you not for your benefit, but for anyone else who might be reading this.

The message that Jonah gave the people, "in the strictest sense", was not a lie.  They heard the message that originated with God, and they repented.  Where is the lie?  
If you were a prosecutor, the fact that this didn't happen was a "lie".
You see how people can play this game?
Reminds me of a scene from the Pink Panther.
 

True that there are people who go along w/things. I see this more in the "raised-in-the-truthers" where the "make the truth your own" is something they have yet to do. And true also that tyrannical elements exist in the organization as there were too in the 1st century. People said things, and "leaders" said and believed thing which weren't true.
"2  However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ+ and our being gathered together to him,+ we ask you 2  not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement*+ or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah*+ is here." 2 Thes. 2:1-2
Peter had to get straightened out by Paul. Priscilla and Aqulla had to strighten out Apollos. There were people pushing circumcision. There was a fascination with angelology. There was the "sect of Nicolaus". People came and went. I'm sure there were people who thought certain the end was in sight then and preached to that effect.
People get things wrong a lot. Especially where God is concerned. Some have problems admitting being wrong, and maybe today you have some overly concerned w/lawsuits (guess what, there were lawsuits in the 1st century too).
At any given moment you have people w/a certain spirit about them. Is it their desire to tell the truth, or to trick you? People fool themselves 1st before they fool others. It happens all the time.
That's why you have to keep testing the inspired utterances, because there will be utterances and you have to keep checking to see if you are really in the faith.
Me? I think I'm doing good sometimes and then ten minutes go by and I'm like pig-pen from the Charlie Brown cartoons. I spiritually floss one tooth and the others get loose. It never ends.
I think of this written by Paul and feel the same way....
"21  I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me.+ 22  I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within,+ 23  but I see in my body* another law warring against the law of my mind+ and leading me captive to sin’s law+ that is in my body.* 24  Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25  Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.+" - Ro. 7:21-25
So to me w/organizations no matter what, you have yourself either alone and on your knees praying alone or you associate w/organizations who mostly appear to be doing their best.
Maybe some are being idolatrous w/organizations and maybe some are uncomfortable w/the ambiguity which comes from a living, breathing and imperfect faith and so they tighten up - well guess what? It's never stopped being that way and won't until Jesus intervenes in this system in a way that's undeniable to the entire planet.
 

A - I would say expecially w/regard to the trinity, that you have to have (to get all epistemological about it in the Gettier sense), to have knowledge of something, to have true, justified belief (to have knowldege, it has to be true, you have to believe it and you have to have good justification for said belief).
To believe something is to be able to provide a rational belief, an account of your belief. If you say "I believe in the trinity", that's not proof of your belief. That's a statement. You have to provide justification.
If you say "I believe in the trinity because the Pope says it's true, or because my preacher says it's true, or because I don't want to be called names." We all know those are not valid reasons, any more than if a person were to say "The governing body says it's true, therefore it's true and those are my reasons". These may be reasonable in the sense of these "reasons" being correlated with the proposed belief, but to believe something you have to internalize the thing in which you ostensibly believe.
I see a cat. I believe I saw a cat. I touched the cat. I form a "catness" analogy in my head as to when something has passed into the zone of catness and when it's no longer a cat. My belief has boundary conditions, and is potentially falsifiable. But at the moment I say "I'm holding a soft, purring kitten" and you see it, and acknowledge it, then we have some grounds for saying we believe me when I say "I'm holding a soft, purring kitten".
The justifications are my sense data and your agreement w/my sense data.
What is it that this person is even talking about, when he says "I believe the trinity to be true."?
The word and it's use is so ambiguous as to require a lot of qualification. Most people are satisfied, like the reasoning book says when you say "I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit is God's power." (paraphrased) People will say "Mighty fine!, Mighty fine!". You could even preach a sermon in their church - take an outline like "God's View of Sex and Marriage" and give it in any nondenominational church and you'd get no argument.
So do they believe the trinity? I don't think they even have a clear idea as to what they're talking about. You can't teach what you can't clearly define any more than you can believe it. It reminds me of an 8 hour discussion I had w/a pentecostal minister one long Saturday - like playing whackamole w/scriptures. I ended up eating dinner w/his family - nice people and all, but at the end he just had a Mona Lisa smile on his face like some carnival worker who took all my money so I could finally get a stuffed pony.

Fortunately I never acquiesced to any organization. I used my own God-given conscience from the moment I walked into a kingdom hall. Some have left because they felt they needed to, and some have stayed. There is no universal response. It isn't even necessary for me to spend time defending an organization. Instead I'd rather spend it learning more about the Bible, bible history, archaeology, textual analysis and trying to better frame answers which help people who are looking for good answers to the emotional problem of evil. (the logical one already dealt with).
Can a person be a Christian w/o attachment to an organization?
I'm certain they can, but it's quite hard, and then one wonders what the point of it all is if there is not at least one other person? "When two or more are gathered in my name..."
If one does decide to associate in some way with a group, even a nondenominational one, the chances are quite likely these believe, and quite strongly so, that anything you've "learned" in association w/Jehovah's Witnesses is tainted, and needs to be expunged from your mind. (Is literally "everything you learned" wrong?)
There simply aren't any groups of people who won't in one way or another apply pressure to you to believe the things they believe, or remain silent where you don't. The tyrannical elements w/in people are too strong to keep in check. They always surface.
As an exercise, type up your list of core beliefs and compare these to the myriad groups around. Can you find one which accords w/your core beliefs in every way?
If you can, then consider yourself fortunate, because I haven't yet found a person associating w/a religious group yet who embraces fully every thing the "leadership" ("call no one leader, rabbi, father" - Mt 23:8-10) teaches.
Just thinking out loud here, but I think some of the reasons some who have left don't really leave (besides having the annoyance of family members still in) are 1. The time spent is viewed as an investment which didn't pan out as expected and loss aversion is forcing a return (you might think, to one's 'vomit' - Pr. 26:11) ...but it's the economics fallacy of the sunk cost (but consider, was there no gain?) 2. There are no other places where these can go where anyone can even begin to understand what it means to actually BE one of Jehovah's Witnesses - It's a love-hate relationship, and no one in the world can begin to understand if they haven't been there 3. Very close to the previously mentioned...The loss of so much variety and association over years (along with memories that one cannot expunge from one's own head which are so damningly pleasant) which is missed one needs the contact to work out the "poison", to reframe the experiences which are there inside. In this these often find people who will engage them in such a way so as to reinforce the reasons these left.
It's unfortunate that this is what it is. The human condition. Longing for a full realization of a utopia which looks as if it will never come, and damning the mirage for "tricking us" into believing to was real, and not only real, but about to become real for everyone on the planet.
It's difficult for people to leave, no doubt. I've known a few. Some have embraced ideas which they would have strongly objected to on scriptural grounds years ago, some have lost all faith in God and become atheists or agnostics. This is a shame to me. It's like getting so close and because of blemishes real or imagined these abandon all faith, and the beautiful vision of the future under the kingdom. I applaud those who don't lose their faith and perhaps there are quite a number of these - I don't know, but I hope so. I can't help but believe that the lesson of understanding that mistaking an organization for the actualization of God's kingdom is one that these are going to have to learn at some point. When they do, I'm hoping they can let the anger go. If there is discipline to be meted out to organizations or individuals in organizations I'd say to remember Jesus, when he had a dispute w/Satan about the disposition of Moses body - "May Jehovah rebuke you" and if there's rebuking to be done, he'll certainly do it.

A lot of this are what I'd call "Red Herrings". They're the "noble reasons" that the guy in prison gives for why they stabbed the guy. (the truth was the look on the other guys' face)
Let's suppose you're right. That all this was a power issue. Whom did they have power over? What did it get them? Money? Fame? It wasn't until much later that I even knew any of their names. I could have cared less.
I never once believed something because the organization said something was so. I never burned a pinch of incense to them. I read their arguments and some of them I agreed with completely and others I could see multiple ways. I didn't see the point with arguing about "tabs vs spaces" as it all compiled the same. I wasn't baptized into the WTS.
Now to current issues. I do think that the issues w/pedophiles and the like is extremely important. I don't think any JW doesn't think it's important. How each case was handled? I don't know. How the organization has handled it - probably could have done it differently and they certainly know it now.
Was the issue the "two witness"rule? Perhaps, and this is where you have to ask whether this was taken in the wrong context and it created this situation. To me it always seemed a matter of principal, that you didn't convict someone w/o good evidence, not a literal reading of the mosaic law that you had to have two witnesses.
Does the fault lie with a corporation, or with individuals and individual congregations?
It's being treated as a corporate crime and I know people have been hurt. Clearly this isn't just an issue w/JW's but also w/any group as the problem is a problem w/in society as a whole.
Did we expect to remain untouched by the problems in the world? I'd say that would be unrealistic.
I know that the training we had as well as the reporting was in our case always above board and legal and ethical. There was a case once where a young man about 15 was over at another families house and something happened with another young girl who was also underage, maybe 13 at a pool party. How was it handled? The police were called, and they investigated. That body investigated the circumstances as well. Nothing legal ever took place and the young man never had any further issues, though he changed congregations.  About 15 years after this he was being considered as an MS. Well this family heard of it and raised a stink. We had a meeting and some of the brothers seemed to not understand the issues here. 1. This was looked at by the police. 2. This was over a decade ago. 3. He had no contact w/the family or girl since that time. Yet some imagined we needed to examine this over again. I had to underscore that the "issue" was the issue of slander, not this thing which was investigated years ago. 
 
He did get an appointment and he's married and doing well as far as I know. The other family hasn't fared so well. Was this all the fault of the 15 year old boy invited to a poorly supervised pool party? That doesn't seem reasonable.
On the other hand continued abuse and neglect of serious situations clearly have taken place and been grossly mishandled. I can't imagine the suffering that these have had to deal with and no JW I know would want any of this to take place - yet it isn't outside the realm of possibility that corrupt elders and other corrupt people will find a home somewhere. You can see them looking sometimes to check out a congregation to see its spirit to see if this is a place where they can get away with things. No doubt some find a "home". It's terrible. You can have CO's who travel and they're supposed to check up on things and elders and elder bodies can disguise what's happening. That can happen.
What does this mean? To me it means people are imperfect, some are evil and some are imperfect and evil and you may even run into them in the congregation. You get the sense of who a bro or sister is by a lot of things, and people gravitate towards the ones they resonate with. That's why you have to keep an eye on yourself and your brother.
I remember one older elder grabbed me and took me into a room (I wondered why) and it was because he was accosted by this DF'ed sister who wanted to talk to him (he said he made a rule never to be alone w/a woman not his wife) and I thought that wise.

Everyone has to decide. Do they want to go it alone and try to be a Christian by themselves for fear that the contact with others or an imperfect organization will taint them? Turn them from the way? Or, do they want to be part of a group with whom they are in the most agreement that they can be recognizing that all these things which are wrong in human society can also be wrong and will be wrong in that group?

I never sang the anthem or any religious songs because this will put one on the side of a human government or other religions who do not accept the name of Jehovah as their God.
. Yes, there are classical composers like Tchaikovsky who was homosexual ...... but his preferences were not in his music...... he was forced to commit suicide when it came out in high society that he was homosexual. I watch several ballets with his music and listen to his symphonies and sing a song he wrote.
Do you not think that sexually explicit posing for pictures awaken  fleshly desires in men?   The bible warns about this....... thinking in a fleshly way and promoting fleshly desires. To you it seems to be nothing - but it will not bring approval from Jehovah. But maybe you do not care? It is nice to be an attraction when you are young....
There are many JWs who have given up a life of making a lot of money or making a name for themselves. They follow the example of Jesus who did not go after materialism or a kingdom with influence. It is called "the narrow road"..... but some find it too narrow....... they are not prepared to give up selfish pursuits.
We have been in the perousia a long time but now we are in the first lockdown in the history of the world!  The signs are here and yet people are still eating, drinking and going on as normal.  Did the bible not warn us that people will start mocking about the end and that the love of many will cool down? 
I have been in the Truth since the age of 21. I did not grow up in the Truth. Did I make mistakes, yes I did. Did I get up after falling and go on under Jehovahs hand.  Yes, I did.  Am I happy that I did not follow a world-carreer (which was in my grasp).  I do not look back one day! Jehovah has been kind to me and we will soon be under a very totalitarian government....... just as bible predicted. One will not be able to buy or sell if you stick to the moral principles of jehovah.
Habakuk said.... the time is panting to the end.  Jehovah wants the lost sheep to come back. Are you back? 

Mr Chavez - she is too worked up to understand much. 
All her efforts are much ado about nothing  and a  'manufacturing of outrage'.  I joined UN press to get news too!  There was no other source of news available about the decisions of the UN at its meetings but the UN news department itself - at the time. I later left them when I could get more material online. I joined as a member of a NGO (non-government organization) and did not pay any fee to join.  OXFAM and many charity organizations are NGOs!
The UN started with only 50 members in 1945 and was an  importent international organization because at the time it was viewed as a reliable organization even though we knew that in future it would be turn against religion, and take over from the 7-headed beast.  For that reason I am still watching  UN events.
The UN itself is a non-government organization - intergovernmental    Here is the definition of it its public information department: 
 "The United Nations (U.N.) Department of Public Information (DPI) defines the NGO as “a not-for profit, voluntary citizen’s group that is organized on a local, national or international level to address issues in support of the public good. Task-oriented and made up of people with a common interest, NGOs perform a variety of services and humanitarian functions, bring citizen’s concerns to Governments, monitor policy and program implementation, and encourage participation of civil society stakeholders at the community level.”
Since 1992 the UN has been working on Agenda 2021. After this (especially after 9-11)  its international actions in the last 20 years has started to take on a sinister character.  Much internal corruption, that is growing exponentially, and collaboration with many corrupt private NGOs all over the world as well as super capitalists has turned the global world organization with 192 members out of 195 nations into a place where super-capitalists have control over  technology, banking, media, legal, and human rights organizations. ... and its power is growing as super-global corporations which provide food, water and energy is joining its ranks. I.e. Monsantos-Bayer. Look at the list of attendees at DAVOS and you will have a good idea of the new and old super corporations which are joining the ranks.
I have complained many times on this forum that Arab nations and China (who have no clue of human rights) are now in control of human rights. 
RUSSIA AND CHINA veto many beneficial actions..... controlling things to go their way on the security council.
For example, not only does Bill Gates own most shares in all the corporations that will manufacture the upcoming  vaccinations , he also owns the patents for the technology that will be used in them.
He (and many billionaires) do not pay taxes because they all have charity organizations which their money is given to. These charities give mega donations to NGOs or corporations that promote their financial interests (tax free).  NGOs additionally get billions in "grant money" from governments and they use it for purposes they deem fit. ... which further line the pockets of those billionaires, NGOs and those involved with the UN. I.e vaccination "testing programs in Kongo and India.
These are now dictating health policy to the WHO.  The world AIDs fund has also  been a slush fund for the super rich. Gates himself is the biggest money contributor to the WHO.  UN has been bought and paid for.  This is why I am warning that UN now has the teeth to act.... something it did not have before. BUt a corrupt organization with super-capitalist technocracy running things does not augur well for the future. IT WILL BRING THE WORST TRIBULATION THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN. I call it a technological corperatocricy or science dictatorship.
Soros set up a NGO in Ukraine in order to stop corruption........ and it became the biggest corruptor of the society and the legal sector. He is also funding all DA offices in USA and many front organizations. His Open Society charity is behind many sinister plots....... THAT IS HOW HE MAKES HIS MONEY.  READ up how he almost broke the UK economy and how he is not welcome in many countries any longer and is facing criminal charges in 6 countries....  But of course the naive people here will look it up on the super-capitalist owned media and call it conspiracy lies.   Soros is funding corrupt  prosecutors who do not follow legal procedures but make up their own rules as they go along...... in Ukraine the people who were trying to prosecute  Hunter Biden for corruption was FIRED. ........ Read up about the Color revolutions - big money involved in the overthrow of governments and it seems USA may be following the same pattern.
The world is totally corrupt and the super-rich and UN & collaborating NGOs is behind it.  Most local NGOs for " sustainable development " in the USA is changing the LOCAL laws without the people's consent. They are changing the laws in line with agenda 2030.  NGOs for sustainable development are often funded by the  Council on Foreign Relations (which was given power by the first president Busch after the first UN Agenda 2021 was signed by more than 170 nations). ...... which by the way is legally binding..... eventhough the agenda itself does not say so. 
I can go on about this non-government organization - which started in idealism - has been totally corrupted and taken over.  It used to be an organization without teeth but has enough teeth now to lock down the entire planet - think on that.
TO SUM UP:  the UN had not much power a few  decades ago...... but in last 15 years is exponentially growing its beastly teeth ..... together with those who are giving it money and support.  It will soon be able to gobble those up who dare to stand up against its all encompassing policies.

The same communist tactics all over the world now and a clamp down on human rights, free speech etc.

Crazy when 666 says this - when they know full well that Aids, hepatitis C, syphilis etc is a death sentence. 
My baby daughter had cancer and had a full day surgery without blood - and survived!  She did not get anaphylactic shock - a common reason people die from after they receive blood..... but blood is never put on death certificate as reason for death.
They come through surgery well but on 4th day develop this shock to the body due to blood and die. On the death certificate: complications of surgery ..... never the true reason for death because they make too much money on it.

Regarding what the both of us has stated before, we were both correct. Washington in 2021 is going to be chaotic, at the same time, the wild beast and Babylon will be taking action. People will succumb, not all, but a few, to the powers that be during the pandemic, and when they are fatigued, they are taken, fear and influence (in the schools, the workplace, etc.) will take them and they want the powers to hold them. Believe it or not, even some JWs have been fatigued to the point that they themselves will be broken.
This is why people need to take these powers seriously, on the other side of the spectrum, the mark is a bit closer than you think due to advancing Tech.

Such folly sort reminds one of the words of the wise contained in Proverbs 18:13 "When anyone replies to a matter before he hears the facts, It is foolish and humiliating".
scholar JW

JW Insider
No this is the case with Exilic scholars. I rest my case because it is well established on the facts of the case and on OT Historiography , a term not found in COJ' s hypothesis nor found in other critics of WT chronology.
You are the one being deceived by apostate propaganda!!
scholar JW

JW Insider/Outsider
As long as you understand the difference between these two disciplines.
You have just started so finish reading the entire book.
I know what it is as I have studied it at University as one of the post-graduate Units. COJ's treatise is not historiography as it simply a criticism of WT Chronology and the Gentile Times. COJ is not a scholar and has not undertaken academic work at a University therefor his treatise must be judged on its own merit and has not committed to any proper exegeis of the 70 year textual corpus.
I can see this by your lack of faith and belief in our Chronology preferring the views of modern critics and apostates. You show a failure of what Chronology is as  a discipline being ignorant of its principles and its methodology. You have not got a clue about Chronology whatever its source or form.
The date 607 is well established as part of Biblical Theology and History and it works being calcuable to 1914 which is the poster boy for us living in the last days. Unlike 586 or 587 which are simply 'dead ends' we have a date that is rock solid giving faith in our Heavenly Father who knows the times and the seasons and reveals such matters alone to His servants.
scholar JW

True, there are no dates on tablets.  They usually refer to some great local event...most of these, in our time cannot be tracked.  I happened to take out a book with translations of tablets when I worked at the university.  Yes there are theories about stars etc.... but descriptions of these events are not that accurate..... so we can be  making mistakes.
I think these people will believe what they want to believe. They are forming camps now.  Propaganda is rife in these statements that there are  "dates" - without substantiation - and are often repeated and people start to believe the fallacies.