Thinking

I leave Witness and her two disciples to form an echo-chamber for each other. Pat each other on the back.  I have lost interest.  If you have not said anything I have not heard over and over before.

The funny thing is that what he was saying is a legitimate Christian belief, even we Jehovah's Witnesses believe this too so it is not only us so that teachings isn't soley exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses. The fact that the quote of his was actually from some dude who wrote a lot about the New Covenant (Don Stewart) can easily be found (BY THE POWER OF THE INTERNET lol) shows that to be true also.
As far as I know, Stewart is a Theologian, well from what I can see, he isn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses but he knows what the Covenant is about and said the same thing about what was said here.
I don't really have much questions because I read, meditate and apply what I learn from the Bible. If that is a problem for you then you really need to check yourself. I rather not read any less because I apply what Joshua 1:8, we studied about this today actually. 
Oh Frida, oh Frida, intentas esforzarte solo para parecer tonto... Seeing you are denying the name given to you by the Athiest fellow from that very old discussion, to which you deserved it after irritating him. That's cute and all, but that name is your brand, and it sells, and you legit, actually have a family member linked to you by that name, tu mejor amigo. But yeah bro, worked that brand, do you.
As for my participation, it was related to what I made a comment to. What you just say irrelevant.
But seriously, bro... You had a chance to say something wise, but you ended up taking out your own ankles outside of a basketball court, epic fail mi chico jajaja
Come on, amigo, surely you can do more than shed some chuckles, ah if you don't like Frida, Chuckles is another good one.
 

You do know I believe this, WHITEWASH page 1, to which I even responded with biblical evidence in which you said there isn’t anything and paraphrased from legitimate sources such as scholars and Theologians, such as your favorite – Albert Barnes.
And I will gladly quote myself, to which you stated before there is no Scriptural Evidence:
 
Which is indeed true, especially when we can see the first few comments of the WHITEWASH thread before I even mentioned the Book of Jeremiah.
Also true, for you and Srecko pushed the notion of Christian churches in ancient Israel concerning a Judge, as is with false information of Chloe, in which you knew Srecko's claims were in err, yet you sided with him every step of the way, when the Bible itself holds true to the fact that both of you were in the wrong.
Which goes back to when I asked you in the WHITEWASH thread concerning ALL of God's people, which you ignored, and mixed and cherry pick verses concerning only the chosen ones, especially with what Paul wrote.
And what point are you trying to prove with this one concerning hypocrisy, granted what I mentioned in page 1 of your WHITEWASH thread, and the fact you uttered afterwards to the child that I do not believe such?
Granted you will merely quote without giving an explanation when the information I address is there and clear, with biblical support all intact.
As for my answer to JWI, it was a correct one. The chosen ones are in union with the Christ, the ones with the hope of eternal life are in union with the Christ. Those of Zion and those of the earth believe and follow Jesus, and they worship his God, Yahweh, the one who has paved away for the New Covenant to take place, of which it stems back to his original promise. Jesus himself died for all of mankind, not solely a selected few, his church, just days later, consist of both Jews and Gentiles accepting and following his teachings.
Because I will always defend it as I do with Shema Yisrael and the Holy Spirit, as I had done for years, for such has not changed.
Can you point out absurd claims regarding the New Covenant concerning them? Because we go back to the WHITEWASH thread, we can see what is said by such ones as the boy, JWI, and the lot. Jesus did not give himself up as a sacrifice to the Jews only, but to Gentiles as well. To believe otherwise is being ignorant, willful in absurd notion and claim.
And I address again, can you point this out in the face of what JWI and the boy had said, as is with the core belief of Christendom mentioned and paraphrased by me and others in the WHITEWASH thread?
It can be pointed that you are in err fairly easily by mere passages and marginal references to passages to prove to claim and what you are being accused of.
Restorationism still exists, both in group and lone ones. Restorationism is not even part of mainstream Christendom, which is a known fact to everyone. One thing for certain, there are some who has given into mainstream Christendom, thus breaking away from Restorationist roots altogether, whereas the majority enters into mainstream Christendom, the belief of hellfire torment, afterlife and living souls, spirit torment, tainting God's love and impartially, teaching that only Jews are of Christ and all Gentiles are doomed, Trinitarianism, Oneness belief, New Ageism, Spirituality, Astrology, etc. There are those, no, the majority of mainstream Christendom that take to the idea that since all of us believe in God we should unite in form of an interfaith, to which those who are against the mainstream, against the protest and or reformation, speak and preach against, be it directly or indirectly.
Mainstream Christendom and the interfaith idea it pushes is seen as a clear and great threat to those who follow the Christ, as a real chosen one had stated, that there are those who do not know the real enemy they are fighting, for such ones are the ones to be easily swayed by the mainstream without notice, like a unexpected flood, hence my strong disdain for the mainstream, what they have done as is with the events they produce such as peak, Kairos, and that abomination that was taken place in Washington, to which I had challenged a mainstreamer and told him to repent and go about the truth the right way in before regarding this, as confused as Mario is, I pity him unfortunately, it has fallen to sexual sin.
That being said, JWs have always been and still are Restorationist, granted that Great Awakening is when Restorationsim came forth, and at the time they were Bible Students, and as the years went on by other Retorationist have either went off grid and or gave in to mainstream Christendom, for even in that day and age there was always a constant fight between the mainstream and the non-mainstream.
For today, the bulk of the fight for thee truth about God and his Christ is against the front-line solider of mainstream Christendom, the interfaith and Trinitarianism.
It isn't about sympathizing, it is about speaking the truth concerning lies and or conspiracy.
I speak the truth of other things, and deemed a Jesuit, a Jew, a police lover, far right or a leftist, a racist, etc, even you added a claim you could not prove regarding you calling me Misogynist when that is down right forbidden in my culture, we even have sayings and proverbs regarding women, hence why I challenged you to give evidence and you never said a word.
That being said, I really do not care what you stance is regarding JWs, you can hate them to the ends of the earth, no one is going to knock you, but to produce lie and or conspiracy, that is another issue.
More so, even concerning the Bible and the Bible alone, God's inspired word, speak otherwise of his word, I can guarantee you, as I have done before, you would be refuted, for speaking outlandishly of God's Word with something that has no sense with prompt challenge and question, of which I am clearly known for, more so, the fact you do not consider such a mistake but push such willful will only make the matters worse.
That being said, if the Bible proclaims the God had saved Hezekiah from the Assyrians army and someone proclaims this truth, immediately you attest to that being of the WT's teachings, and yet somehow it is right in your eyes that the savior of Hezekiah was the deceiver all along. That in of itself shows foolishness and ignorance when the Bible tells us clearly of who saved Hezekiah and how it was done.
Of course you only point to, no, cherry pick, the verses concerning only the chosen ones. I suggest you check ALL verses concerning the New Covenant as a whole, rather than a few verses. For, sacrificing a passage or a context of something for the sake of a single and or very few verses does not help to push the message of the Christ, nor does it help anyone. That notion you push is enough to give some random stranger in the ministry a lost hope that if he or she is not of the chosen ones, such one has no chance, thus causing a bigger void between accepting the teachings and learning about God. One of the reasons I even told you in the past - do you even adhere to the Great Commission? The answer to this is evidently a bold no.
As I recall, Jesus died for all of mankind, and Jesus wanted the people to know who he is, and who his God is, as this is strongly brought forth in Jesus' final prayer.
And your point? Jesus is a mighty warrior and King, and he commits to the purpose and the will of the Father for he himself made this clear if you understood John 10:30 and all references to that verse. Jesus with angels under him, fought the Heavenly Warrior against Satan and his demons and will be continue the fight on the day of God’s Day – Harmageddon, and it will not solely be God’s adversary and the demons he will deal with, but also, those who are of the wicked.
In the WHITEWASH thread, there is a link to your response to a woman on this forum, with evidence of you watering down our Messiah's role as King. For it isn't about a cape, Witness, it is about the seriousness of Jesus' Kingship, him being at the right hand of God and made superior to all the angels, the fact that he led an army against the one you assume to have had a role against The Egyptians and saving Hezekiah somehow.
That being said, Superman isn’t Disney, the character belongs to DC comics and WB. As in Disney level, it is regarding of you equaling to Jesus's role as King to that of the level of Mickey Mouse, so to speak. Jesus' role is a serious one, and God's purpose and will is done through Jesus, even in regards to the fact that Jesus is King, for instance, the fact he will resurrect people by the multitudes as Apostle John conveyed.
 
The one of whom you proclaim the message for as is with those who follow said message have been spoken of in the past be it by name or by where such one can be located simply by quoting your proclaimer, an example would be the topix thread, of which I had addressed before the website has changed, even linked screenshots of someone else you defended to show evidence that no one agrees with said person when you said otherwise. You and your proclaimer have been called to question because there was a discussion concerning several things.
No mistake because back in our original discussion when topix was accessible, several followers were mentioned including you, one of the reasons one of my original questions to you went along the lines that if the Bible had been corrupted.
For, this isn't the first time I addressed this to you either, for way back I attested to this, as is with the whole gun totting, poison drinking claim regarding JWs by followers of another whom you adhere to.

This is where Freedom and sanity, and peace come from .... when you disregard people who have proved they have no credibility whatsoever ... and STOP BEING AFRAID OF DYING. 
Every living thing that has DNA dies ... and there have never been any exceptions... not one... from a mosquito to  a Brontosaurus ... and we did not exist at all for about 14 BILLION years ... and my guess is no one worried about it.
We should serve Jehovah because it is the right thing to do .... not because someone is generating artificial panics to get the troops to march faster.

This to me sounds like a bunch of people who want to see themselves as a special class of teachers...... and walk around amongst the earthly Amaharets as privileged heavenly ones.....like the fathers of the Nephilim of old.... same wish for more than their allotted attention.  
Jehovah's people are already being taught at our meetings ...  and Jehovah may use this same system in the new system.   An army of people are being added to the earthly domain of Jehovah's future government every day and are being taught individually by those who primarily have the promise of living for ever on EARTH as future subjects. No special anointed with special insight needed for this!!
Again - look what is happening on the ground....in reality - not fantasy...
Today - we are being prepared as future citizens - totally neutral and being taught to love one another and care for each other and to obey Jehovah. We are all taught the 'principles' of Jehovah and each individual knows what is expected from him. The problem is that we all  are living in a secular world and have to cope with secular problems all the time.  Many come from bad backgrounds and need time to unlearn some bad personal habits - but overall they do not become gross sinners and try not to be hurtful human beings or have hurtful practices towards others. (We all will be happy when the influence of satan and his demons are removed.)
There are a few renegades and they are set outside the congregation until they accept that they have sinned against Jehovah and hurt their fellows and try to change and cooperate with the teachings of Jehovah and the elders (Elders are a scriptural instruction - no need to give proof from the bible). 
Under Jehovah's government now we do not have police to keep everyone in check. Everyone is expected to obey from free will supported by the education they received individually and in the congregation. Those who overstep the lines (invisible barriers where one can harm another or self or disrespect Jehovah) are spoken with, but if their rebellion is serious - they need to face the consequences. 
All governments have police - we do not because we have already been EDUCATED SPIRITUALLY and as individuals we have all the materials needed to educate ourselves further.  In the new system - when the new scrolls open up, all will be educated in the same way - and all will be expected to obey by their own volition/free will. (no supervisors needed or special individual teachers).  Jehovah's government will deal directly with those who are a threat to others. 
After the 1000 years - the anointed and Jesus will no longer be in their positions as kings and priests. They will get new jobs. How will people on earth live?  Will they need police or supervisors?  NO.  They will experience total freedom like Adam had and live by their educated consciences - and their direct communication with Jehovah will be restored. In the 1000 years there will be a continuation of what is happening NOW - a continuation of the spiritual education (without satan around to cause problems) so that everyone can reach perfection.  All the needed provisions (spiritual food from the new scrolls will be provided/facilitated).... as Revelation indicates. Jehovah's spirit will be in abundance! And we will be free to communicate with him without the worldly pressures and agendas that crowd our lives now.
If one understands the Hebrew word for rule (as in Arabic)  - it is NOT the secular oppressive rule that we have seen in the worldly system past and present ......... it is closely related to the word "to give justice"... to judge (judge does not have the connection to punish - but to give justice).  Any creature who likes to control others is like satan.
All the resurrected ones on earth who have suffered will receive compensation and justice in this 1000 years.  All the lowly and those oppressed - who before were slaves... they will receive the benefits of total freedom with personal responsibility...  living in peace and harmony with others and NOT being dominated by any one else on anyone telling you what to do.  Obedience to Jehovah is ALWAYS a matter of conscious choice!  If everyone obeyed by conscious choice there would be no problems on earth at all.  If everyone cooperated willingly to instructions (without it being a law) we will have harmony and equity- (each person being appreciated for who they are). 
Those who decide at the final test as perfect people that they do not want to live under this government - will face consequences for their choices. If they choose like Adam - they will face the consequence of Adam.... however the number of people is undetermined now. 
So elders in the new world will NOT tell people what to do - they will be facilitators/serve.  The anointed ( 1kor 15) will have heavenly bodies with immortality. It is unnatural for heavenly bodies to materialize - only on special occasions did Jehovah instruct his angels to materialize and it was with at special occasions when his "purpose" was being directed. 
Romans 9:4 speaks of "sacred service" of the anointed.  Primarily they are the 'new heavens' spoken of..... with heavenly bodies . Their priestly duties will most probably be to facilitate the provisions and instructions for the forgiveness of sins.... If they do materialize it will be for a specific purpose because they are 'adopted sons' - like the other angels and they are a new creation with a new name (new heavenly position and function).  We do not see the angels amongst us do we?  Yet we know they are there and they are assisting the preaching and teaching work....
To give up their heavenly bodies will be to give up their separateness as a priestly nation - a special possession - set aside for Jehovah.   Their new jobs are not completely defined in the bible.  All we know is that their work will be rewarding and important....1Peter 2 they will offer up spiritual sacrifices through Christ. Hebrews 8:5 indicates the priesthood of Moses to be a "shadow" of the sacred service in 'heaven' - heavenly things.
They will facilitate/oversee the teaching of the word of Jehovah... and the important function of judging and seeing that righteous 'decisions' are made and Jehovah's righteous law is enforced throughout the earth - almost like the boardroom in a company. Jehovah's spirit will be in full operation so he will facilitate communication between heaven and earth as he has done in the past. Many resurrected ones may have problems adapting etc.... so the 144000 will have an important job to facilitate justice and mercy.  They have enough experience as imperfect people.
The anointed may be visible during Armageddon but this cannot be taught as a fact. We know that angels destroyed 185,000 troops of Sennacherib and he himself thought it was pestilence - no-one saw the angels (Israel ot the Assyrians did not) but they saw the results!  The bible does also speak of natural signs.... so people will not be in the dark as to who is bringing the destruction especially after they start to attack Jehovah's people in the entire globe!
Moses was a priest - he called to Jehovah and interceded for israel - their intercessionary work will also be the facilitation of justice and mercy.  Moses heard many cases until it was given to 70 elders.   
The elders are an institution - given in the bible - they are shepherds and facilitators for the congregations... servants... of others. They are now being trained (and will still need a lot of training like all the others) if they are to be used in futue.  The higher you want to be in Jehovah's organization the humbler one should become..... this is what the bible teaches... no need to quote all the scriptures.

God and his Son love the Amaharets. They are chosen over the lofty. It is one of the most significant lessons a person can learn from  the Bible 

I understood what you meant but I countered it with another question to prove how most people in the world do not study the bible. In contrast, the Witnesses study and learn the truth and it carries them for a long time. Truths such as the mortality of the soul, Jehovah's name etc.  Most people on this forum learnt all these things from the Witnesses but turn around and bite the hand that fed them this information in the first place!   
 
My FEELINGS are - you are wrong.  Most know how we get there but have more to do with their time than spend days in front of their computers in forums like this trying to score points for themselves..... because this is not edifying to anyone but the persons who think they can discredit the slave...  it is not purely an academic exercise - do not be fooled!.. 
There are more competent people on here than I - who can be an advocate in this court case - however, fairness is not guaranteed!  I recall when this subject came up before under another heading  these same people themselves did not know that the JW's use 537 BCE as the pivotal date to get to 607 BCE .... the conversation fizzled out after this was proven to them......just to be opened up later again with more virulent compulsion. 
As someone has already pointed out - we do not need this for salvation. But I do think 1914 helps us to realize how far we are in the stream of time and how close we are to Armageddon - a loving provision from Jehovah.  And I do not try to 'prove' anything with this statement...because appreciation cannot be measured or quantified in an academic way unless you do another study - lol. I am not here to score points but I wish to show there is more to 1914 than just a date - the history on the ground is completely ignored by these people who try to prove the slave to be deceivers and they use any minute discrepancy to do so to their advantage.... without considering their own discrepancies.... and this shines a light on their motive.... 
There are many feelings attached to this date - it presents much more than a date.  Many here  promote only the knowledge without a love for Jehovah - so it has no meaning to them - just an academic exercise. And yet these very people ignore the signs on the ground which has so much emotional meaning for those awaiting this final stretch of time.  The history on the ground since 1914 is what helps the "simple folk out there - the Amaharets" - without the academic inclinations, to lift their heads up. They are the ones whom Jehovah and Jesus loves.... and sustains with his spirit.

If there ever was an independent thinker who likes to explore new ideas, I am one of them.  BUT - I do not teach bible students my own ideas and also not  in the congregation.  I will chat with others about it but not openly advocate my own teachings.
The reason being that if you really have christ in your heart you will not cause divisions in the congregation over non-essential things. 
The essential teachings such as the name jehovah, non-divinity of christ, mortality of the soul, kingdom of christ with earthly subjects... are absolutes ...that are not a matter of opinion. Other subjects are non-essential matters for debate because peoples egos are associated with them. .... as apostle Paul mentioned.  He said we must not be contentious and egotistical.
James 4:1
What is the source of the wars and fights among you? Do they not originate from your fleshly desires that carry on a conflict within you?

That is your interpretation of submissiveness which is wrong. As I said before - you have imperfect ideas about authority. 
I do not think like my husband in all things but I am willingly submissive because a peaceful house and cooperation is more important than my independence. 

Thanks  I have been able to get hold of them...big read ahead I suppose 

de Vienne wrote that when she submitted the final Volume I to Bethel, via mail I suppose, they received it without comment. She speculated about this and one possibility she advanced was that they ‘were incurious about their own history.’ In the main, I think this is true. They don’t look back all that much at Bethel—they look forward. 
And it is also true of me. It is not that the past history does not interest me. It is that so many things interest me more that I may never get around to it, even though I would like to. I read the book rather quickly because I told her I would write a review of it, which I did. Maybe someday I will come back to it more thoroughly. 
One other reviewer wrote of the authors’ “almost fanatical attention to detail.” That was also my general impression and it makes me suppose the book is probably the foremost authority on what it writes. They don’t appear to have any agenda at all, other than illuminating history—unlike almost everyone else who weighs in on the subject.

Good comeback!, and funny, too!
But cereally folks, I started studying the Truth in the 1960's,, and it was about the mid-60's that I noticed that a different culture was evolving.  Back then, if a JW family broke up, it was usually the husband left the wife for another woman, and the Society taught at that time that if a brother was a homosexual, or had sex with animals, it was NOT pornea, and she had no grounds for divorce. 
I am sure this caused a LOT of misery and suffering.
Today in the "pillowgate video" , the brother stated that if two Bethelites are sitting in facing chairs, naked, watching each other masturbate, that is also NOT pornea, because no one is touching another person.. I have posted that here, many times, so I will not do it again.
It is seriously creepy. Even the specificity of that is seriously creepy. Makes me wonder who got caught that could not be disfellowshipped.
The point of the above is that there are good reasons why I keep my own counsel on the matter of keeping and bearing arms, and being ready to defend the innocent at all times, and not pay too much attention to those in authority that have a long record of being seriously creepy ... and wrong.
 

I corrected you because YOU were sly...... implying people are losing their lives regarding the blood law......  because they obey gods law.  You implied that they are listening to the GB instead of obeying God. I called you out on that deceit. 

The jew is his slave - and many go with them as the prophecy indicates....... but you refuse to acknowledge the Jew. 

No one can know who is anointed or not...that is between Jehovah and them...
It’s one of the reasons you would be a fool to worship the GB...never alone the clear scriptural warnings against it.
The organization exists as a tool to get the basic preaching work done....and just as there was a Judas working alongside of the apostles and worked with Jesus....so too there will be a Judas element at the top..... who ever Gods people are...and where ever they are.
It Is true what you say...Moses was known when he was born and Jehovah intended to use him in his assignment...but he was still a murderer before he took up that assignment ...
Time will sort many of us out......you are actually incredibly self righteous and have marked so many of us...unjustly so.......and you don’t even know that is what you are doing.
instead why not try to develop the attitude that Paul had....because only Jesus is going to correct the errors that you see...and that we see also...and the confusions .
Keep in mind he was talking to Gods People here...followers of Christ...
why do you think it will be any different today?
Phillipians 1:15,18 NIV
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defence of the gospel.
the former preach Christ out of selfish ambition not sincerely, supposing that tthey can stir up trouble for me while I am in my chains.
BUT WHAT DOES IT MATTER the important thing is that in every way, wether from FALSE motives or TRUE Christ is preached .
And because of this I rejoice. Yes and I will continue to rejoice.
By The way even sporting organisations have a Governing Body to organise their body of members...
And our GB will stand before their God for accountability just as you and I will....or do you not trust Jehovah to be fair and Just?

How does this make any sense to average jws? 
............................
Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...
the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..
all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 
he had no right to do that.
And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.
He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )
 
now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.
yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..
yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...
Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...
Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.
Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...
Numbers 20:24
Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.
Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels
and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...
Numbers 20:10
.....hear now YOU REBELS
the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....
yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....
Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..
so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...
Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.
Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....
 

 

How does this make any sense to average jws? 
............................
Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...
the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..
all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 
he had no right to do that.
And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.
He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )
 
now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.
yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..
yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...
Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...
Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.
Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...
Numbers 20:24
Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.
Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels
and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...
Numbers 20:10
.....hear now YOU REBELS
the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....
yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....
Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..
so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...
Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.
Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....
 

 

Hi JW Insider,
Interesting point you have brought up regarding the blood issue and Bro Smalley.   I can see why he's "out of sorts" being in a position to defend a public policy which is quite different from a personal one.   Personally, I choose not to accept the fractions, but I'm 69 yo.   I have a copy of a news article from some years back (somewhere in my "stuff") regarding a lawsuit brought against the Society by a daughter of one of our sisters who died from apparent lack of blood.  The daughter (not a JW) maintained her mother didn't know her "options".   I have had a sense that this lawsuit changed the Branch's "education" on the blood issue.  Can you imagine having to defend the 2000 yo doctrine in a modern court with hostile attorneys chipping away with their worldly logic?   The fraction education could be the "agreed upon" correction defined by the courts to keep the Branch financially upright.  I worked for State government so I know how it works to a certain degree.  Fed would come in to examine how their funds are being spent, find violations and part of the reconciliation to avoid large fines  was to demonstrate to the Feds how the problem would be resolved with "education" on a certain policy.   Sometimes we're behind a rock and a hard place.  Satan likes that technique to pressure people to forego our strict belief system, not white to black but more into the grey area.   I look at the people donating blood and that's enough to turn me against the idea, then in a pint of blood you have many many donors.  I wonder about DNA from all those donors and how that plays into the issue.  What if they find even more info about our "human makeup" in the future.   There are lots of issues to be resolved,  Jesus has been given the responsibility to care for the congregation of Jehovah, so I let him know my concerns and then leave it to him to sort it out.   It's so very obvious we are coming to the end of human rule,  let's keep our focus on the Kingly government that will set matters straight.   Remember Aaron who started to doubt because Moses delayed on the mountain.  There was a refining process by Jehovah to let the Israelites and the mixed company get hungry, thirsty and wondering what happened to Moses (i.e. their leadership).   I wish you well and send my sisterly love,  S

How does this make any sense to average jws? 
............................
Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...
the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..
all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 
he had no right to do that.
And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.
He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )
 
now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.
yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..
yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...
Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...
Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.
Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...
Numbers 20:24
Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.
Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels
and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...
Numbers 20:10
.....hear now YOU REBELS
the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....
yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....
Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..
so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...
Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.
Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....
 

 

How does this make any sense to average jws? 
............................
Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...
the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..
all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 
he had no right to do that.
And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.
He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )
 
now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.
yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..
yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...
Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...
Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.
Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...
Numbers 20:24
Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.
Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels
and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...
Numbers 20:10
.....hear now YOU REBELS
the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....
yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....
Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..
so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...
Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.
Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....
 

 

I quote 4jah2me "it seems crazy to let yourself die" ...... well ..... jesus allowed himself to die in loyalty to his father......  4jah2me obviously sees something seriously SICK in that!......... or maybe did not fully understand what I was referring to.
There is a problem: he cannot see that a person should not value his life more than his obedience to God!!! 
Matt 16 :25
"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.  "
 
 

You are a sick lady to say such a thing. 
I'd better stop at that. 

I don't  think it was meant that way Arauna. @Anna asked a genuine question about the very young children being included in the count and @James Thomas Rook Jr. being his normal self made a joke about two or three year olds being included. 
It wasn't to suggest that adult JWs are children or babies. It was actually talking about real babies. 

They will count baptized children, down to the age of three, or if they have been potty trained, down to the age of two.

I put "rules" in quotes because I believe actual rules are too much like laws, and then it smacks of legalism, and we therefore miss the spirit of Jesus' instructions. Especially if they are always followed the exact same way so often that we aren't really paying much attention.
But you hit upon a few of the "rules" to question already:
Why does our wine need to be the same as a "Passover" wine? At one time, an elder would purchase the wine and no else one really thought much about whether it was "Kosher for Seder" or exactly what levels of sugar it had. Now that millions of Witnesses will think about going out to buy it on their own, they might wonder why we don't try for wine made from Israeli grapes/vineyards. What constitutes too much preservative to make it impure if it must represent the unblemished Lamb? And if it's too difficult to get your own wine, some will wonder (as you did) if you should get symbols at all! Or perhaps, since no one is partaking, would it be OK to take the closest matching wine from your own wine rack? After all, it's only called "the product of the vine" in the Scriptures, and we don't know much more about any Galilean variations for Passover.
Also, what if someone has decided just before the Memorial that they now are of the anointed class and the symbol wasn't offered? And, even if no one is partaking, how important is to follow the words: "Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves" (Luke 22:17)
The same kinds of questions could be asked about the bread. 
(Also, the question might arise about whether a family needs to clear the food from the dinner table first, since the disciples seemed not have done so in Matt 26:
(Matthew 26:20-26) . . .When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” ... “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24 ... 26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.”
(Usually it was a bowl of oil that a piece of bread was dipped into.)
Other questions, like I mentioned, might be why it has to be on Nisan 14, if Jews could celebrate a month later? Or why do we even celebrate it once a year like Passover was celebrated, when Paul said "whenever" and Jesus sais "as often"? Or, is it proper to have this celebration at a house when Paul said that people should eat at their home instead of where they partake of the Memorial?
(1 Corinthians 11:20-22) . . .When you come together in one place, it is not really to eat the Lord’s Evening Meal. 21 For when you eat it, each one takes his own evening meal beforehand, so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated. 22 Do you not have houses for eating and drinking? . . .
And for some, they might be paying more than the usual attention to this particular Memorial and perhaps even deeper questions might arise about the doctrine itself. Perhaps questions some should NOT be asking. Whether partaking in a Biblical sense actually means sharing which some might say we should all be doing. Or even whether the particular part of the Kingdom hope we wish for ourselves personally should have anything to do with whether we are supposed to partake. 
(1 Corinthians 10:16, 17) . . .The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of the Christ? The loaf that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of the Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf.