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Thinking

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  1. Upvote
    Thinking got a reaction from Space Merchant in At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?   
    Yes it is John ...just as it was wrong of Arron to build the golden calf in the wilderness...some witnesses seem to live in fairy land and think we as a people are so different to the Israelites of the wilderness when in fact we are the same. 
    But don't let it escape your notice .... just as Moses did finally come down of that mountain and sort that wayward people out...so too will jesus come back and sort us lot out,,, 
    so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power ... what is escaping your notice is when those in the wilderness were directed to go forth and take the land ...only Joshua and Kaleb stood firm .. the rest had no faith in their God ... who were they ....they were the cheiftans of the tribes..men in authority ...they were not just any little Israelite man from the camp..they were probably men that were hand picked by Moses ...yet their error brought calamity down on their own people ....these things are relayed to us for an example ..to teach us ....can we really expect it to be so different today.
    instead of causing division and doubt why not consider Joshua's and Kalebs insight and understanding... why not imitate their faith and encourage those in this confusing time that Jesus will return just as Moses did and sort this mess out and bring about justice and peace to the hurt sheep ...
  2. Haha
    Thinking reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?   
    A family in a house is to God, as a litter of puppies in a box is to us.
  3. Upvote
    Thinking got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?   
    Yes it is John ...just as it was wrong of Arron to build the golden calf in the wilderness...some witnesses seem to live in fairy land and think we as a people are so different to the Israelites of the wilderness when in fact we are the same. 
    But don't let it escape your notice .... just as Moses did finally come down of that mountain and sort that wayward people out...so too will jesus come back and sort us lot out,,, 
    so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power ... what is escaping your notice is when those in the wilderness were directed to go forth and take the land ...only Joshua and Kaleb stood firm .. the rest had no faith in their God ... who were they ....they were the cheiftans of the tribes..men in authority ...they were not just any little Israelite man from the camp..they were probably men that were hand picked by Moses ...yet their error brought calamity down on their own people ....these things are relayed to us for an example ..to teach us ....can we really expect it to be so different today.
    instead of causing division and doubt why not consider Joshua's and Kalebs insight and understanding... why not imitate their faith and encourage those in this confusing time that Jesus will return just as Moses did and sort this mess out and bring about justice and peace to the hurt sheep ...
  4. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in JW Grandparents Who Shun Children Should Likewise be Banned from Contacting Grandchildren   
    I am beginning to believe that ALL the Scriptures in the Bible, talking about how the "love of the greater number will cool off", and in the end times, a wide range of cruelties will be abundant, that it is talking about what is going on INSIDE the "Truth" ... not the world.
    We have been thoroughly trained, year after year after year ... to be able to turn family love and affection on and off ....on and off ..... on and off, with the "light switch" of disfellowshipping.
    We deeply love our families ... unless they get disfellowshipped ... then they are invisible, and in effect cease to exist.
    If they are reinstated, we are taught to flip the switch and turn those affections back on ... at least in theory.
    It is insane in theory .... and insane in actual practice.
    This is cruel, mean, extreme, despicable,  hateful, and hypocritical .... and does not lend itself to sane thinking.
    These policies over time can erode and  destroy a civilization, theocratic or secular.
    Even the Russkies understand that!
  5. Confused
    Thinking reacted to JW Insider in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    In case that sounded too flippant, I wanted to add that I have full confidence in the insight and guidance that the slave displayed when Losch put that scripture (Proverbs 14:15) in the center of his speech.
  6. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to JW Insider in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    My opinion? I believe that Proverbs 14:15 is an excellent scripture. ?
  7. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to Anna in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    Yes, of course, but you seemed certain. In any case, I think your question was related to wondering why some didn't survive Armageddon and others did. Actually to be precise, the scenes are showing the great tribulation which precedes Armageddon. If anyone dies at Armageddon it's because they have been executed by Jesus. But there is possibility that some faithful Christians may die during the great tribulation at the hands of God's enemies.
    The end of the basement video was inconclusive on purpose I guess. Some friends suggested that the soldiers didn't "see" the brothers. Others thought that an angel of Jehovah stepped in. In any case, the depiction of paradise showed other characters from preceding videos (which also appeared in the 2018 video), so I don't think seeing those who were in the basement necessarily meant they had died and were resurrected, it could have meant they survived....
  8. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to Anna in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    This has been discussed before somewhere and you know what my feelings are on this and I've probably mentioned this already but this is a good post to mention it again; the argument seems to be that this reasoning would be following the pattern of the past, where God's people always had to follow some kind of instruction, whether splashing blood on the doorposts, or go somewhere etc. However, the very same people who present this argument say that other things are going to mean our deliverance. Actually just this last midweek meeting the workbook mentions we must prepare spiritually to be saved and we do that by
    By developing TRUST IN JEHOVAH,
    which gives us COURAGE,
    which leads us to a POSITIVE ATTITUDE,
    which coupled with BROTHERLY LOVE
    enables us to ENCOURAGE fellow believers
      There is no mention of listening to any instructions. In any case the Bible might give examples of instructions in the past, but it never mentions anything like that in reference to "judgement day" /Armageddon. On the contrary, we are clearly told that those believing in Jesus will be saved. No verbal instructions which might seem illogical from a human standpoint there. Then there is the scripture in Matthew 24:40 " Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41  Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned" indicating that this can happen without any special instructions.
    I wanted to check how the WT interpreted this scripture so I looked it up. There only seem to be three references to it (there might be newer ones that I don't know of) One is from WT 1975: "Weeks earlier Jesus had made a similar statement, prompting the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” He answered, “Where the body is, there also the eagles will be gathered together.” (Luke 17:37) The ones “taken along” are spiritually sharp-sighted, like eagles, who gather to the one whom they discern to be the Messiah, for the spiritual feast that Jehovah provides within his place of safety. They will gather together with God’s congregations on earth, under his true Messiah. Those “abandoned” will be those who do not keep spiritually awake and who consequently get swallowed up in a selfish way of life, as did the people in Noah’s day. Such are “abandoned” to destruction along with the world system of things in which they are involved".  Then God's kingdom of a thousand years book has a similar explanation also referring to Luke 17:37, and then the last reference was from WT 54 and in my mind seems the better explanation: "The word used here in the Greek for the expression “taken along” is also used when Joseph is said to have taken his wife home. It is also as when Jesus is said to have taken Peter, James and John along with him into the mount of transfiguration. Jesus used the word when he said: “I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” (John 14:3; Matt. 1:20, 24; 17:1, NW) Thus, those “taken along” receive a favorable standing with the Lord and are brought into a way of salvation. This corresponds to Noah’s being taken into the ark the day of the flood and to Lot’s being taken by the hand and led out of the city and therefore precedes the execution of judgment."
    In context, the question "Where Lord" in Luke 17:37 surely seems to be asking where will the man in the field, and the woman grinding at the mill be taken. And Jesus' answer surely indicates heaven, primarily, and salvation for those not of the heavenly class. But I still don't see any instructions.....because to be taken by the hand (as in Lot and Noah) and led somewhere, are not instructions
  9. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to Anna in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    Ok, here goes:  there may be evidence that we don't know of. We don't know everything. So the correct thing to say would be YOU haven't seen any evidence. There are brothers or sisters who believe they have seen evidence of Jehovah's interference during Nazi occupation. Of course which of it was actually interference from Jehovah we just don't know.....In any case, Jehovah is and has always been concerned more for our spiritual safety, rather than physical safety. If our physical life is in jeopardy and we die, well he can make us live again. However if we are in jeopardy spiritually and it leads to our spiritual death....well...that's different story...
  10. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to JW Insider in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    We stopped using that number in the 1970s. The jw.org site has a better approximation now:
    https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-holocaust-facts-concentration-camps/
    About 1,500 of Jehovah’s Witnesses died during the time of the Holocaust, out of some 35,000 Witnesses living in Germany and Nazi-occupied countries. The cause of death is not known in all cases. Since research is ongoing, figures and other details may be updated in time. Executions: Close to 400 Witnesses were executed in Germany and in Nazi-occupied countries. Most victims were tried in court, sentenced to death, and beheaded. Others were shot or hanged without a formal court hearing. Severe detention conditions: More than 1,000 Witnesses died in Nazi concentration camps and prisons. They were worked to death or died as a result of torture, starvation, exposure to cold, illness, or poor medical care. As a result of the brutal treatment, others died shortly after their liberation at the end of World War II. Other causes: Some Witnesses were killed in gas chambers, subjected to deadly medical experiments, or given lethal injections. The last group under "other causes" could have been as many as 100 Witnesses. Further study on this shows that many of those deaths we might still be counting as "Jehovah's Witnesses" were actually "Bible Students" who were either still one of the other factions of "Russellites" or who had returned to "Bible Students" associations after certain issues they had with J.Rutherford especially after 1927 and after 1933.
  11. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to JW Insider in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    Yes. That's the point. Things like this can literally happen, and have literally happened in the past right up to the point of the miraculous divine intervention.
    In the past such things have happened even to peaceful secular groups who are perceived as being a threat to totalitarian and imperial states. Even if NOT exactly like what will happen during the great tribulation and Armageddon, it still creates a picture of the divine intervention that can be seen in a symbolic way that all Christians should experience when facing death for a righteous cause. Stephen's faith, for example, may have allowed him to see such a vision of divine intervention just prior to being stoned to death. Long prior to Armageddon, in the first three centuries of Christianity, perhaps hundreds of thousands faced death in such a manner in arenas, by mobs, by trial and execution, on stakes and crosses, by wild beasts, by fire, etc. Those true Christians in the past can still experience what is perhaps similar imagery in their very next conscious moments after their death, at the time of their resurrection. This imagery in the video should help produce a reason to feel the same courage in a potentially near future time when that same imagery may happen literally just prior to divine intervention. 
    So all this part of the video, and even the video itself is well done and should have a good effect on our courage.
    But you hit upon a major theme of the video, even if it was not very overt. It's also about being obedient to men. This could end up making people associate salvation with obedience to humans. I'm sure that @Witness might have mentioned this before somewhere else, but the very article quoted above by "Witness" about Gog and Magog is the article that you quoted from earlier in this topic:
    *** ws13 11/15 p. 20 pars. 16-17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today *** [Simplified Watchtower]
    The Bible says that this army is made up of “seven shepherds” and “eight dukes,” or princes. (Micah 5:5) Who are they? They are the congregation elders. (1 Peter 5:2) Today, Jehovah is using many faithful elders to shepherd and to strengthen his people for the future attack of “the Assyrian.” (See footnote.) . . .  (3) At that time, the direction that you receive from Jehovah’s organization may seem strange or unusual. But all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether we agree with them or not, because obeying these instructions will save our lives. *** w13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today ***
    (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. It's just my personal opinion, of course, but this is where I see a danger. We are telling people who expect to be surrounded by doubt and fear [the first words of the song in the video] to remember that for salvation they must be ready to obey instructions they hear through the elders that might sound strange and not make any sense "from a human standpoint." In other words, we are to accept and obey the instructions from humans as if they are from something greater than just a human standpoint.
    Notice that the simplified Watchtower version comes out and just plainly states that our salvation depends upon obeying strange and unusual direction from elders through the organization: salvation by obedience to men. Did we forget?
    (Psalm 146:3)  3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs [who cannot bring salvation, NWT Revised]. Calling them nobles, princes, or dukes, doesn't make a difference;  they are still sons of earthling man, humans. The idea above subverts the scripture.
     
     
     
     
  12. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to Anna in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    It's no more a fabrication than an artist's impression of paradise. I don't think the point was to depict "exactly" how things will transpire because no one knows for sure. The objective was to inspire courage to stand up for what one believes is right. That's what the audience walked away with I would hope.  It was based on Biblical experiences of God's people in the past such as Joshua, Hezekiah and others where God defeated enemies on their behalf.
    For our present day Luke 21:27 is quite applicable: "And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.” 
  13. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to Anna in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    Personally I thought it was a very well made video. It was nice to include Phelicity Sneesby, the young girl from Australia who died shorty after the video "Jehovah is more powerful than my health problem" was shown. She appears in the "courageous" video to the words of "Lasting harm can never hold me—No prison, gate, or grave".
    For those who have been following the last few conventions the video will have more meaning because they will recognize the characters from some of the previous stories.
  14. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to Anna in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    You completely missed the point of the video.
    And those people didn't look afraid at all, and neither did the audience that you said got so emotional.
  15. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to JW Insider in JW Convention 2018 Final Video - English Version   
    Christians, too, but without physical weapons:
    (Ephesians 6:10-13) 10 Finally, go on acquiring power in the Lord and in the mightiness of his strength. 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. 13 For this reason take up the complete suit of armor from God, so that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have accomplished everything, to stand firm. And of course, the next verses go on to prove that our weapons and armor, etc., are not physical weapons:
    14 Stand firm, therefore, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, wearing the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having your feet shod in readiness to declare the good news of peace. 16 Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows. 17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word, 18 while with every form of prayer and supplication you carry on prayer on every occasion in spirit.  
     
  16. Upvote
    Thinking reacted to Space Merchant in JW's don't really love people.   
    Give the Congo a visit, perhaps the islands. You cannot judge a faith community as a whole for the actions of one. This is the same problem I have to teach strictly to racists who discriminate time and time again because of one's color. A guy who does a crime does not define a whole race, a man who bombs a school does not define a whole group, etc.
    The mind set and mentality of the West, at times, is silly.
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