Patiently waiting for Truth

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Hi 4Jah2me,

According to these scriptures it is very good to examine scriptures to make sure. I check very often interlinear translations to see if the New world translation translates correctly.

1Thessalonians 5:21 Make sure of all things;

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 

@Kosonen  Thank you for your reply. However the plot deepens :-

The Book of Acts or Acts of the Apostles.

The NWT has it that the writing of  Acts was 'completed' c.61 

However looking online I find this :-

Acts was apparently written in Rome, perhaps between ad 70 and 90, though some think a slightly earlier date is also possible.

And this :-

Acts and the Gospel of Luke make up a two-part work, Luke–Acts, by the same anonymous author, usually dated to around 80–90 AD.

So we already have questions as to When was the Acts of the Apostles written ? 

This also leads to another question, one which i have raised before. 

You have quoted Acts 17 v 11.

" Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. "

Now here's the rub. Exactly what 'scriptures' were they examining ? 

Surely they only had the Hebrew writings ? A. Because not all the Greek writings had been written. B. Because the Greek writings that had been written would not yet have been gathered into a 'collection'.  

One also wonders if the Apostles would have carried around a 'bundle of scrolls' to read from ? Or would only have had reference in synagogues where the copies of scrolls (Hebrew Scriptures) would have been kept. Hence :-

Acts 17 v 10 

 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas to Be·roeʹa. On arriving, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.

( I've always presumed that the Apostles spoke from memory whilst being inspired of God's Holy spirit. ) 

This brings another question. Regarding Acts 17 v 11 " carefully examining the Scriptures daily "   Would the Bereans / Boreans / Beroeans  have had access to the Hebrew scrolls daily ?  Were the Synagogues left open for anyone to go into to examine the scrolls ?

If the scrolls were guarded by the Jews, would Christians have had access ? 

What should we believe and what should we question ? What should we just accept and what should we research ? 

How deep should we dig in order to find truth ? 

How do we really know what TRUTH is ?

Yes I'm asking serious questions and trying to dig very deeply

THE BIBLE CANON.

Now here is a lovely place to start digging. And here is a lovely place to ask ourselves, Should we just accept the Bible Canon as it is ?

“Canon” is a Greek word meaning “rule” or “measuring stick.” So the Bible canon is the 'accepted' 66 writings that the Bible holds.

Should we accept this canon or question it ? Do you know that many 'Bible scholars' did not and do not agree on the Bible canon ?

@JW Insider I do thank you for all your help but I think we have come to a point where we may be of different opinion. 

I like this bit. Quote " But we see Paul continuing to "shepherd" the congregation, as a kind of "long distance" elder. He is to those congregations what the "governing body" seems to be to current Witness congregations."

But Paul was an outsider. He was not one of the Twelve or older men of Jerusalem. And he only lived until 68 CE.

Whereas the GB are basing themselves on the Twelve and older men of Jerusalem. 

Quote " John, in Revelation, writes to congregations with an idea that Jesus handles each congregation directly, and that they have been "on their own" under the direction of Jesus. They have a need to recognize this direct authority of Jesus, as they make decisions locally about who/what to listen to, and who/what to avoid. (Revelation 2&3)."

But the GB is opposed to this idea. The GB say they are the F&DS and are the ones taking the lead. Or more bluntly, giving the orders. 

Didn't Russell originally have the same line of thinking as John here ? Not needing an Organisation and not needing leaders. 

Quote "It seems as though the apostles and older men of the first century did indeed act like a kind of governing body (not just in Jerusalem, but in Antioch, and anywhere that Paul, Titus, Timothy, etc. might have served from). "

I think we have to just agree to differ here. I think you are stretching the use of the term 'governing body'. Paul was guided by holy Spirit in Antioch not guided by a governing body. 

However you then wrote  " But by the time John wrote, it was important to have more reliance on the holy spirit, "

" But you can also see a need for a balanced view since the goal should also continue to be guiding all to rely directly on the words of the Bible already written. "

So where does this leave us now ?

With a GB not inspired of holy Spirit but making the rules, and pretending they have a right to do so by saying there was a 'GB' in the first century. But it is clear to see that Christ was sending God's Holy Spirit to the congregations individually. 

And how can people rely on the Bible when they are being told what to believe by a Governing Body ?

I've just found this and thought it would prove that the GB pretend to be the 'modern' 'Governing Body,  based on a governing body that actually may never have existed in the first century.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/jehovahs-will/jehovahs-witnesses-governing-body/

Quote :-

In the first century, a small group, “the apostles and elders in Jerusalem,” served as a governing body to make important decisions on behalf of the entire anointed Christian congregation. (Acts 15:2) When they made a unanimous decision, it was a result of discussing what the Scriptures say and yielding to the influence of God’s spirit. (Acts 15:25) That pattern is followed today.

It is responsive to the direction of God’s spirit. The Governing Body looks to the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah, and to the Head of the congregation, Jesus, for guidance. (1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23) Its members do not regard themselves as the leaders of God’s people. They, along with all anointed Christians, “keep following the Lamb [Jesus] no matter where he goes.” (Revelation 14:4) The Governing Body appreciates our prayers in its behalf.

However the GB now says they are not inspired of 'God's spirit'. 

Um, 'do not regard themselves as leaders' ?  But they do call themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

Quote @JW Insider  " This is not the topic with which to discuss the canon, or authenticity, .. "

Are you suggesting another topic to discuss such or are you saying we should not discuss such ?

I'm becoming of the opinion that there was NO 'Governing Body' of the 1st Century Christians. And that with the deaths of the Apostles and with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C. E. there was NO central form of 'rulership' over the Congregations of Christians of that time. 

Galatians 1, v 15 through 20

But when God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through his undeserved kindness, thought good ¹⁶  to reveal his Son through me so that I might declare the good news about him to the nations,m I did not immediately consult with any human;* ¹⁷  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was, but I went to Arabia, and then I returned to Damascus.n¹⁸  Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ceʹphas, and I stayed with him for 15 days. ¹⁹  But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. ²⁰  Now regarding the things I am writing you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.

I also read this account by Fred Franz 

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/239363/there-first-century-governing-body-fred-franzs-view

Which seems to make it clear that Jesus was not working through a central 'rulership' or GB at the time of Paul's missionary work.

""And they [members of the Antioch congregation] laid their hands upon Paul or Saul and Barnabas and sent them forth, as a number of translations read, sent 'em forth! And then they went forth by the Holy Spirit operating through the Antioch congregation and they went out on their first missionary assignment. So you see, the Lord Jesus Christ was acting as the head of the congregation and taking action directly, without consulting any body here on earth what he could do or what he could not do! And he acted in that way with regard to Saul and Barnabas, an they were both apostles of the Antioch congregation, and so they went out to the work and had great success..."

No matter what personal opinions people have of Fred Franz, his words above (if the quote is correct) seem to make good sense. 

The fact that there is a Governing Body of the Watchtower and CCJW is just a fact. But to try to say that they are based on a first century 'Governing Body' seems to be lies. There is no proof of any 1st Century Governing Body at all. 

So, the question remains, Did each congregation rule itself ?  This quote from FF above concerning Antioch seems to say that Antioch made it's own decisions whilst being guided by Holy Spirit. 

I can see that i need to do much more research. 

@JW Insider   Um yes, well i suppose I asked for that didn't I.

And top of your list is the only one that i have in hard copy.

I have a soft cover Enlarged type - Illustrated, Complete Works of Josephus. Of which i have only 'dabbled' in the Antiquities Of The Jews and noted in chapter nine the  mention of the stoning of James, brother of Jesus.

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Did you once say of me, that I trusted no one ? (Sorry if I'm mis-quoting you)

However, the first item I looked at, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1timothy.html

Quote :-

1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus)

Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5):

The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter.

I hope you see my point about not trusting anyone. I think one needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit to know truth from lies.

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Backtracking if you please. What I'm looking to find out is, is there any proof of a  'governing body' 'group of Apostles / Older men' after 70 C. E. ?

I will have to re-read 1,2, 3, of John as they were the last writings included in the Holy Scriptures. 

But, another question. From 70 C. E. did the congregations that were already formed, act independently of one another ? 

Is a list of congregations that had been formed available, apart from those mentioned in God's Word ?

The GB & Writing Dept of Watchtower / CCJW  is central control. All congregations now follow the 'rules' from central control.  But was there such a central control of the 1st Century congregations ?  

And I'm still puzzled as to why the Apostle Paul was chosen to be the one to write to the congregations. 

Also as Paul was put to death in 68, I would have thought there would have been other writings to the congregations to encourage them at that time. 

Which brings me to the point (and I admit to not knowing ) Who chose the writings to be included in the 'Holy Scriptures' ? But i will do so research on that. 

If the GB are a representation of the 12 Apostles / Older men in Jerusalem, then who is the representation of the Apostle Paul ?  Because it would seem that Paul was independent of those in Jerusalem. 

It's just a thought. 

@JW Insider  Thank you for so much information. I will have to re -read it at least twice more to be able to digest / understand and try to remember it. Even better I will copy and paste sections of it as a draft email to myself. 

Quote "There are plenty of letters and stories and other Christian writings between 70 and 300, but no evidence about Pella."

Can you point me in the right direction to above statement please.

I'm still not sure if you've answered my questions written in blue.  Please bear with me as at 70 years old i find it difficult to hold information in my mind and to process it well.  As Arni said ' I'll be back'

Will the doctrine of the “144,000” become an unlimited number to accommodate the massive “Gentile” elder body? 

@Witness  Are you serious ?  Like I've said before I cannot watch these videos I just can't handle them. So please explain in simple terms why you think the GB / CCJW will turn the 144,000 of the heavenly class into an unknown number to include all the earthly Elders ? 

Well it certainly looks like the GB of CCJW and it's Lawyers are hiding the names and identities of Paedophiles in America, otherwise why don't they hand over the 23 years of Database with the Child Sexual Abuse accusations in ? Now surely if they handed over that Database to the Superior Authorities of America that would not be breaking any laws. It would still be in confidence even inside the offices of those  Superior Authorities. Then it would be the responsibility of those Authorities how they used the information. 

'Give to the one asking, go the extra mile, when taken to court for your outer garment give your inner garment also' 

However, reviving a 4-year topic is lame! 😂

You can blame @James Thomas Rook Jr. for that. 

4 minutes ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

Yeah the same place San (Sao) Paulo Brazil where the Vatican held a conference of Bishops so the POPE could let them now they were losing a lot of Catholics to witnesses and it needed to be stopped. Police raids is a good starting point by the Vatican influence of by corruption.

The same criminal activity going on in Mexico against the Watchtower. But then again, Criminal Abuse is happening throughout the world against the Watchtower, thanks to ex-witnesses and fake members.

Catholics need to keep their members just like the Orthodox, Jews, and any other religion that has a stronghold in a nation.

It’s good to know lawless men here have no problem with governments overstepping their authority by forgetting their own laws and standards. That says more about people here than the raids themselves.

 

And you wanting to hide Paedophiles in JW Org and not caring about victims of Child Sexual Abuse, says a lot about you, and about the GB and JW Org. The lawless men, that break God's laws, are the GB and the Elders. 

A topic, or more of a number of questions ? 

I've been pondering and trying to research a few things. But the problem I've found in trying to research is that people have their own agenda and will write according to it. They have their own predetermined answer and will therefore write accordingly. I am therefore not starting with a predetermined set of answers, but am asking questions, as many of you have great experience and knowledge.

I'm looking at the 1st Century Christian 'organisation', at the 12, at the Apostle Paul, and at the warning and destruction of Jerusalem which I think happened in 70 C. E.

One point I was looking to discover was, when did the 1st Century Christians leave Jerusalem, based on the warning from Jesus.

About thirty-seven years before the destruction, Jesus had foretold the terrible events that would follow his death. He warned his followers to immediately flee Jerusalem when the signs he predicted occurred. The Christian community carefully watched for the signs and followed the Savior’s warning.

Epiphanes also attested to the Christian escape, according to Bible scholar Adam Clarke. The latter wrote: “It is very remarkable that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem,......"

Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped

Pella must not have been the only destination of fleeing Christians, but it was the most prominent at the time. The flight to Pella took place in A.D. 66 during the attack by Gallus.

So I'm now looking to find out where the 12 Apostles went and exactly when they left Jerusalem ?

AND, importantly, Did they stay together as a 'body' or did they go separate ways ?

As a side note here I find that the NWT has it that the book of Acts was written in 61, whereas others believe it to be written in 66. 

The Governing Body of CCJW give the impression that they are following on from the 1st Century Apostles and Older Men. 

However, here we must look at a few points. 

The Apostle Paul, who was NOT one of the 12, was the one chosen, it seems, to write Letters to the congregations.

If the 12 Apostles (11 original + 1 chosen by men) were the original 'governing body', then why are the Letters to the Congregations NOT written by the 12 ?  Why was Paul chosen to write those letters ?

Or, just as important, Why are there no letters to the Congregations written by a 'body of Apostles / Older Men' recorded in the Bible ? 

Paul was basically an outsider. Why are his writings more prominent in the Greek Scriptures ?

One other thing I noticed was that all of Paul's letters are pre 70 C. E. which is before the destruction of Jerusalem. 

It seems, (although research seems to differ) that Paul was murdered by the Romans / Nero, in 68 C. E.

The only Bible writings after 70 C. E. were written by the Apostle John. Revelation in 96 and John's other writings in 98. 

Was he the only one of the original 12 alive after 70 C. E. ?

So what proof do we have of a 'governing body' 'group of Apostles /Older men' from the time that the 12 left Jerusalem in around 66 C. E. ? 

And why were they not used to write letters to the Congregations ?  Did they stay together as a 'body' or did they separate ?

@JW Insider @TrueTomHarley @Arauna @Anna As JWs that think your Org has truth, maybe you can answer my questions.

 It shows the importance of TRUE INSPIRED PROPHECY.

But it also shows the importance of not pretending to be inspired and not trying to prophecy when you know you are not inspired. Unfortunately the GB have been put in a position whereby they have had to admit that they are not inspired. And it has been clearly seen that the things the GB and the JW Org have prophesied have not come true. 

So once again it has been proven that it is wise to believe God's written word as it is inspired, but unwise to believe the words of men that are not inspired. 

If a person needs to be told by an Organisation that they have 'Free Will' to do something then in truth they DO NOT have Free Will at all, but are just doing as they are told by MEN. 

 Questions From Readers

How do Jehovah’s Witnesses view voting?

If a person even has to ask that question they show that they have no free will.

It is becoming more clear to me each day what a domineering Org, JW Org is. 

Surely if a question is asked it should have been 

How does God view voting ? 

Quote @Leander H. McNelly (  Confederate officer and Texas Ranger captain.) Billy the Kid.

Non-JW’s as it stands now will be considered the (Goats). There is no justification and excuse on someone’s personal action and behavior. You either serve G-d the right way or you don’t. Jesus spoke of unity.

Nice to have your personal opinion, but that is all it is.  It sits in opposition to Jesus' viewpoint though. And I gave scripture to show that.

And as you say "You either serve G-d the right way or you don’t"  And it can be clearly seen that the GB and most of the upper ones in authority in the Watchtower and the CCJW are not serving God at all. They admit to not being inspired and they prove such by running ahead of God and Christ and in so doing they make false prophecies which obviously do not come true. They also place heavy burdens on their followers and do not help to carry the load. They do not show mercy 'to widows and orphans in their midst'. And they most certainly DO NOT keep either of their organisations clean. 

There could well be a while between now and the coming Judgement Day and in that time the CCJW / Watchtower Soc' may be completely removed. Both of those are just man made organisations. Don't you think that on Judgement Day it will be each INDIVIDUAL that is tested, just as we are being tested right now ? Or do you think you will be able to hide behind an Organisation ? 

Matthew 5 v 38 through 42.

“You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’a ³⁹  However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.b ⁴⁰  And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment;c ⁴¹  and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. ⁴²  Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one who wants to borrow from you.

I think Jesus made it clear that those serving God properly should not resist the Authorities of the world. Those Superior Authorities are placed in their position by God. 

“Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.”—ROMANS 13:1.

So why would JWs want to resist an investigation by the Superior Authorities if they have nothing to hide ? 

 will non-JWs survive Armageddon? 

When asked during the Australian Royal Commission, if the members of the Governing Body consider themselves to be God's spokesperson on earth, Geoff Jackson said, "That would be presumptuous of us"

Indicating that perhaps Jehovah's Witnesses are not necessarily the only ones who recognize the TRUTH written in the bible.

Well here at Mark 9 v 38 to 41 we have this conversation between Jesus and John. 

 John said to him: “Teacher, we saw someone expelling demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he was not following us.” ³⁹  But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one who will do a powerful work on the basis of my name who will quickly be able to say anything bad about me. ⁴⁰  For whoever is not against us is for us. ⁴¹  And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.

There are a few points to learn from in this scripture :-

 1. It shows that Jesus allowed others, apart from those HE had sent out, to do powerful works in HIS name. 

2. Those ones doing the 'powerful works' must have had the approval of Jesus and God because they were receiving Holy spirit to do such works.

3. Jesus said whoever is not against us is for us. And I think only those who are fighting against Jesus and God's will, are the ones that will be destroyed at Armageddon. 

4. v 41 Is very powerful and tells us what we need to know. It makes no mention of belonging to a specific religion. 

Maybe the GB and JW Org are too self confident. Maybe JW Org will not even exist when Judgement Day arrives. 

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It helps a LOT ... when the wicked people that God wants exterminated, have a LOT of valuable Real Estate.

Now John Butler would have loved that comment   

Did the 1st Century Christians cry out for Human Rights and Compensation ? 

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-persecution.html

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

4J;

You need to go back, and carefully read what you have written.

It is ENTIRELY based on false assumptions, and on how you FEEL surely what must be the case..

Just as an interesting aside .... not related to my trying to answer the the question of "Why ... ?", is that the development of atomic energy to make an atomic bomb contributed more to medical technology, by a factor of at least 100 to 1, than the human cost of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, since 1945.

Every hospital in America, and my cardiologist, uses radioactive materials to diagnose and treat, and often cure disease of every sort.

She gets canisters of short lived radioactive material every morning from a Pharmacy that daily creates and dispenses radioactive materials, because their half-lives are so short, by late afternoon, they are expended.

 

I re-read what i wrote and stand by it. But if you wish to disagree that is your choice. (Free will) 

(As a side note, some folks don't like the word 'wrote' so replace with had written)

As for your burblings about radioactive materials, um, trying to justify something here ? 

Great Britain was built on blood and slavery, as was America.

But being no part of this world it does not give me a guilty conscience.  I am a Christian that happens to live in England, and whilst I'm alive I have to live somewhere. 

I was also part of an Organisation that causes misery to hundreds or possibly thousands of children and adults. So I got out of that Organisation as soon as I had enough proof to satisfy myself that is wasn't all lies. 

So now I am no part of this world, and no part of that Organisation. It does leave me somewhat 'homeless' but it also gives me a clean conscience. 

Whereas you James, seem to be part of both the world and the Org. I think you call it reality ? 

Any ideas why Aus info' went back 50 years but American database only goes back 23 years ?

Yes, tom is certainly not a 'spiritual man'. 

  In view of this it’s hard to deny that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” is something directed against or directly affects God’s “holy people” in the manner described by Daniel's prophecy.  (Mt 24:15)

Well then it would appear to be the GB and JW Org, as they are acting against the true Anointed ones of the remnant. They have put the Elder body in place of the Anointed and have 'advised' the Anointed not to contact each other and not to have Bible studies together. 

The GB are a false prophet. All the things they have prophesied have not happened. They continue to change the interpretation of scripture and admit to not being inspired of God. They are indeed a 'disgusting thing.. standing in a holy place'. 

So, is the individual killings by a soldier, that trespasses on another persons land to take possession of it, murder ?

Surely it is premeditated killing. 

In Bible times the Israelites were told to give the enemy a chance to surrender before going in for the kill. 

But if an army of soldiers go straight in for the kill, just to take the land belonging to others, surely that is murder. Those soldiers know that they will be deliberately killing people. That is premeditated.

And, it is also racist. For an army of soldiers to deliberately steal land from another nation, that army of soldiers must think they have more right to own that land. Therefore it shows that the army of soldiers are of a mind that their race is superior and has more rights than the other nation. That has to be racism. 

James there has to be a reason you are pushing your point of view on this so much. 

It brings forth the question, are you American or are you a Christian ? 

But because you are all 'physical people' not 'spiritual people' you still all see it as a nothingburger as Mr Harley puts it. 

People have been 'killed' spiritually by being stumbled either by being abused, being a relative of the one abused, being disfellowshipped because of complaining of abuse, being shunned for complaining of abuse, but it's just a 'nothingburger' to you JWs, because you worship your GB and it's Org. 

Anna talks about legal rights. Tom dismisses it a a 'nothingburger'. 

It seems that none of you are seeing the spiritual wickedness (as well as physical wickedness) within JW Org. 

@JW Insider your comment comes closest to being balanced and showing what 'could have happened' from both sides. 

To quote "Some things seem very unlikely to us because we all have preconceived ideas about what such data would look like."  

I'm glad you can see that from both sides. But still it's just 'data' whereas the truth is it's REAL PEOPLE that have had their lives ruined. 

Anna says ""Evidence" is a lot more forgiving ". Um, evidence can be true or false. And in JW Org, using 'spiritual warfare', it is more likely to be false.