9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What it proves is that the CSA story of JW abusers is a relative nothingburger when compared to the CSA story of almost anyone else, where the abusers reported are 100% clergy, and where the abuse rate of ‘parishioners’ is unknown because those groups didn’t care enough about protecting children to look into it.

It also proves that when Drudge runs a story of ‘Ten plagues that are hitting our planet simultaneously’ (today’s report),

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/10-plagues-that-are-hitting-our-planet-simultaneously

that 4Jah’s ‘true anointed‘ that has yet to manifest itself and save the day had better hurry up, because it’s getting a bit tight here.

It also proves that when you run reports of people tortured in Russia and 4Jah responds with a laughing emoji, Srecko a remark on how they ARE violating the law, so what do they expect, that it becomes clear how God can draw as with hooks in the jaws enemies inclined to war against those doing his will. Read the verses of Revelation 19 and wonder at the question—‘who would be so foolhardy to war against God and on what pretext’ We begin see the answer and methods unfolding.

Well it shows Tom's view of the victims of CSA in JW Org.  "a relative nothingburger".

And poor old tom is still trying to twist things for his own advantage. Where is you honesty @TrueTomHarley ?

Where is you truthfulness ? Where is you love and mercy ?  Where is your true service to Almighty God ? 

Oh how you show your true colours, but then Christ knows your true intentions of the heart anyway. 

Quote @JW Insider " But it's not likely true that an ex-JW will automatically have a more balanced view. "

Prejudiced or what ? And then you go on to list your reasons that Ex-JWs are not balanced  .

So be it, but Ex-JWs are not under the pressure that JWs are under from the Elders, Circuit Over seers et al.

Now going back to the CSA, one of my points has always been not only who committed the dreadful crime of abuse, but also THOSE THAT COVERED IT UP.  

Quote Anna " it seems the issue here is the American database. We are under NO obligation to hand over this database to lawyers, and if for some reason Lawyers do get a hold of them, then they are forbidden to make them public."

Oh dear, the physical man verses the spiritual man or woman. 

Have you no idea what Jesus said about anything ?

I'm not at all interested in the legal obligation. I'm interested in the spiritual things.

What would Jesus want the GB to do, if you really think the JW Org belongs to God through Christ.  ?

ANNA burbles on about what the 'lawyers' want, but she forgets about what the GB Lawyers are doing and what they want.

Quote "Most JW survivors are not interested in filing lawsuits.." 

JW's are told what to do and what not to do. There is a threat of retaliation by shunning or being disfellowshipped under false accusation. JWs are told to hide their feelings and 'leave it to Jehovah'.

Quote Anna "In contrast, many ex-JW survivors want to sue the organization because they hate it and want to see it "burn".

That's a Tom Harley line right there.  I think you are taking lessons from Elder Tom. 

The truth is ex-JWs are not restricted by threats from the Elders of the congregation, they have found a relative 'freedom' outside the JW Org.  So they have a more balanced viewpoint. But hard core JWs such as TTH and yourself do not want to see it that way. 

If they have a hate, it would probably be toward the paedophile that abused them and the Elders that hid the paedophile in the congregation. And it might possibly be that it was an Elder that was the paedophile. And, it might be that the paedophile abused more than one person because the Elders did nothing to prevent it. But then if the Elders were acting upon instruction from HQ then HQ would be to blame. 

As for the JW Org burning, it is already. It's burning slowly, but John Butler got d/fed from this forum for saying more, so I will stop here. 

It seems it will never ever go away.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/jehovahs-witnesses-sexual-abuse-wales-17700382

John Viney was a church elder when his own daughter revealed she had been assaulted by her uncle. Now the 67-year-old has described how he himself was systematically abused for five years.

Um, sick me thinks.

But everyone's 'real world' is different. Even the members of a family all living in one house. 

My 'real world' is very simple. because i make it that way.  Therefore my 'real world' is quite peaceful and relaxing.

No longer living by man made fake religious rules has made my 'real world' very different. Whilst I watch others still worrying and frightened of breaking those man made rules. 

But spiritual thinking is above the devil's real world. And why would i even want to be thinking about that world. All earthly governments / politicians / news media / protest groups et al, all belong to the devil's real world. The internet in bombarded with it all. It's almost unavoidable to see but no one needs to dwell on it. 

Just one point though : To quote you 

" Although I try to live my life according to Bible Standards, "

But whose version of Bible Standards do you try to live by ? 

Is it the GB's / JW Org version, or your own version ? 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In virtually every case except Jehovah’s Witnesses the ones committing the abuse were the ones holding authority or office within the institution

With Jehovah’s Witnesses, that is rarely the case. Their organization is being asked to assume responsibility for any of their members who have ever committed the crime.

It is not exactly apples to apples.

 https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2020/02/i-almost-wish-there-would-be-more-public-response.html

You play the same old record but you have no proof at all. 

Tom you do not know who has or is committing the abuse in JW Org. 

1. Because it is hidden in congregations around the Earth

2. Because the GB / Lawyers are still hiding that 23 year American JW Database. 

So how can you know Tom ?

You just make it up as you go along, and most times it's just to promote your own books. 

Very selfish Tom. 

Yes James but I'm trying to think from a spiritual aspect. 

But I'm beginning to wonder James, are you one of Jehovah's Witnesses or not ?

And what do think the real 'time of the end' will be like ? 

Do you think all God's people will be sat in their homes drinking coffee whilst all the 'wicked' are being 'removed' outside ? 

I do remember the JW video of all the bros and sis hiding in the basement when the soldiers come looking for them. 

I'm hoping to be dead and buried before the Judgement Day arrives. 

58 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

and you are so trigger-happy with the barbs, put-downs, and insults, not to mention the cartoons, that I hesitate to get close enough to find out.

I'm just glad I live in England. I hope this is far enough away from James and his house full of weapons. Hope he doesn't get his hands on missiles. 

But seriously though, a country that starts a war for greed and power and is willing to kill other people. If the idea is to take land, goods, riches, people, livestock et al. Then it is premeditated killing that should not be happening. I do not think God approves of any of that. I would think that God would class it as murder. Whether as a whole, or as each individual killing. And I would think the ones doing the attacking and killing would be judged differently to those doing the defending. 

I have mixed feelings about killing for defence. But if someone was attacking my wife then I would think natural defence mechanism would come into play. 

However, the time will come, as i think @Arauna mentioned, when true servants of God will be attacked and killed. I have my doubts that God is gong to defend everyone of His servants. So, will God's true servants just allow themselves to be killed ? Allowing the stealing of our possessions is easy enough, but allowing someone to kill you / me, i don't know............ 

I wonder if we should look for a direct scripture that says "You must not transfuse blood from one human to another human". 

In the final part of the days,*The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,bAnd it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream.c ³  And many peoples will go and say:“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways,And we will walk in his paths.”eFor law* will go out of Zion,And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.f ⁴  He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight* respecting many peoples.They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears.gNation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore. 

Luke Chapter 10

v 29 But wanting to prove himself righteous,h the man said to Jesus: “Who really is my neighbour?”

v 36 Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbour to the man who fell victim to the robbers?” ³⁷  He said: “The one who acted mercifully toward him.” Jesus then said to him: “Go and do the same yourself.”

Matthew 5 v 43 through 48

 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbore and hate your enemy.’ ⁴⁴  However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵  so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens,h since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.i ⁴⁶  For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? ⁴⁷  And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? ⁴⁸  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20151101/is-war-ever-justified/

Today, warring nations often appeal to God for support. But God does not take sides in today’s wars. Instead, in his Word, the Bible, he clearly states: “Return evil for evil to no one,” and, “Do not avenge yourselves.” (Romans 12:17, 19) Moreover, he has made known that mankind should “wait patiently for him” to take action, which he will do at Armageddon. (Psalm 37:7, footnote) When the nations fail to wait for God to act and instead resort to warfare, he views such wars as presumptuous acts of aggression that bring his displeasure. Thus, at Armageddon, God will express his indignation and settle the nations’ disputes once and for all by “bringing an end to wars throughout the earth.” (Psalm 46:9; Isaiah 34:2) Indeed, Armageddon will be the war to end all wars.

This whole Watchtower article make it clear that humans have no right to go to war. It makes it very clear that only God has the right to decide when and how war should take place. 

James, your own org' are showing you that human warfare is murder. 

When the nations fail to wait for God to act and instead resort to warfare, he views such wars as presumptuous acts of aggression that bring his displeasure.

If it's presumptuous acts of aggression, then it is premeditated. And war is always premeditated because it takes planning.  Premeditated killing in this way (acts of aggression) is murder.

But more importantly it is in opposition to Almighty God. 

Romans 12 v 21

 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.n

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

4J;

There is a very simple way to determine whether or not your statement is true .. or is just a cultural tradition that the unexamined mind believes to be true ... but is not.

1.) Show me a clear and unambiguous Scripture, anywhere in the Bible where God considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, or

2. Show me a clear and unambiguous Scripture, anywhere in the Bible, where the homicides in warfare are treated by God with the same response that is called out for premeditated murder..

If you cannot do that ... then what you know to be true in your heart, and down to your very bones to be true, is nothing but cultural acclamation, which became a part of your personality because of unexamined thinking.

...that .... is a euphemism for "fantasy".

... of no more value than KNOWING that Kryptonite will kill Superman, another cultural fantasy.

 

James, what your above comment shows is that you are a physical man not a spiritual man.

I note that you have a need to keep referring to earthly things, not spiritual ones

Therefore, as on the door to door ministry, I will just walk away and let you believe what you need to believe at this point. In six months time your attitude may be different, but right now you have that need. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You idiot, the three examples you’ve given are all clergy—those in leadership capacity. Exactly my point. With JWs it is almost never those who would correspond to clergy—it is the ordinary member. The printing presses will run dry if they ever attempt to report on members of the other denominations—but they never will because hardly anyone other than JWs tried to do anything about the CSA problem. 

And there is Srecko giving you a ‘thanks’ for the ridiculous comparison you made. Silly as you may be, he does not here give evidence that he is any smarter.

Tom, you are unfortunately suffering as JTR Jr is, by lacking in spiritual thinking. You also seem lacking in love. Both you and he are JWs, which you both seem to think is the only true way of serving God. But you both prove by your attitudes that you do not serve God well when compared to scripture. 

I'm a bit concerned about James, him having a house full of guns and then him trying to justify war. He does not seem as if he is a spiritual man at all. 

Likewise yourself. You have a need to call me names. I thought you might like a quote from a Watchtower mag' w06 2/15 p. 31

What, then, did the expression “despicable fool” signify? The word used here sounded similar to a Hebrew term that means “rebellious,” or “mutinous.” It designates a person as morally worthless, an apostate and a rebel against God. So the person addressing his fellow as a “despicable fool” is as much as saying that his brother should receive a punishment fit for a rebel against God, everlasting destruction. From God’s standpoint, the one uttering such a condemnation against another could merit that severe sentence—everlasting destruction—himself.—Deuteronomy 19:17-19.

Do you think I am 'fit for destruction' Tom ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote "With JWs it is almost never those who would correspond to clergy.. "

Two reasons you might think that.

1. Because when it is Elders or higher ranks committing CSA in JW Org, it is kept hidden in the congregation, anywhere around the Earth..

2. Because that 23 year Database, of CSA accusations in America, has not yet been OPENED UP to the public. 

There is another reason but it is a bit debatable. That of a father committing CSA on his own children when the father is an Elder. You might not consider that to be JW Org related even though the father is an Elder. 

Another quote "because hardly anyone other than JWs tried to do anything about the CSA problem."

How is, hiding information from the Police, the Authorities, the congregations, trying to do something about the CSA problem ?

It is only trying to 'wash the dish or pot' on the outside, to make it appear clean. 

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I can always depend on you to prove, in your own words, John,  my conjectures.

It's not your judgement I need be concerned about. 

But a spiritual man will know that war is still murder in the eyes of Almighty God. 

Bad news, and NOT the way to send any message,  but I expect tom harley will just add her to all the rest of the campaign of anti-witnesses around the earth.

tom thinks we are all wicked people that belong to the devil. 

To quote tom harley once more "Constantly we read of individuals arrested over CSA allegations. The one detail that never accompanies such reports is that of the individual’s religious affiliation or lack thereof. Yet with Jehovah’s Witnesses, that detail is never lacking. Why? " 

Just to prove what rubbish tom writes here are three examples i've found to disprove his lies. 

https://abc7news.com/tag/priest-sex-abuse/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/church-england-child-sex-abuse-charles-gordon-dickenson-cheshire-vicar-paedophile-a8812131.html

https://fox13now.com/2017/06/23/lds-bishop-arrested-for-sexual-abuse/

33 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

People who DELIBERATELY do not read ....

.... will forever remain ignorant.

My condolences.

You are doomed to a lifetime of error, and sloppy thinking.

Maybe my spiritual thinking advises me when to stop reading certain things. 

I had read enough on this topic to know what you were saying, I don't need to know more. 

16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

A report on the torture of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia and 4Jah attaches an laughing emoji to it. What a nasty piece of work he is.

Mr Harley knows full well that my response is toward the individual comment.

His individual comment was :-

" The online hate campaign against JWs is indirectly—in some cases even directly—responsible for their persecution, even with torture, as in the above story. "

That one sentence of tom's is what my laughing emoji was and still is for.

tom knows that and all of you also know that, so tom trying to twist things is just showing him as a true JW Elder. Not to be trusted here or anywhere. 

16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

See how the report is about Jehovah’s Witnesses being tortured in Russia and @4Jah2me attaches a laughing emoji.

What a nasty piece of work he is.

I note how tom has twisted the facts here. My laughing face emoji was towards tom's long and boring comment, making excuses for JW Org. You may note that tom was quoting from one of his books again, which in NO WAY related to the tortured JWs in Russia. 

Then tom goes on about CSA etc, which again is not about the Russian torture.

You have a problem that only you can deal with James. I didn't even bother to read the above. 

You seem to have a need for warfare to be ok, just as you seem to have a need to have a house full of firearms. 

I think both are part of the American Dream, so as I suggested but you ignored, it is better to be no part of this world. 

Being no part of this world would mean having no need for warfare or firearms.

As I can no longer be bothered to be drawn into the problem you have with yourself, I'll just let it go.

You seem to have the same problem as many on here.

You are a 'physical man' not a 'spiritual man'. You lack faith in the things you cannot see.

And you are still part of this world, just like Tom and Aurana. Still talking politics. 

11 pm in England. Goodnight

Do tell us in detail, Tom,  about this 'online hate campaign against Jehovah's Witnesses'.  

Oh you did and what a rambling of an old Elder that all is.

What utter rubbish and excuses for an Organisation that is full of Child Sexual Abuse EARTHWIDE. 

Tom brings into it everything but the kitchen sink, in an endeavour to hide the real reasons that people dislike the JW Org. 

Dear old Tom, you fail to hide the truth about JW Org and its GB and Lawyers. Even other JWs on this forum have found fault with your GB and the Org. But you and Aurana seem to be the only two that are totally blind to the truth. And the saying goes, 'There are none so blind as those that don't want to see'.

The problem with Tom's argument / ideas, is that Tom 'lumps' everyone together.  All JWs are individuals but all people that find fault with the GB and the JW Org are all the same, all one group, according to Tom.

They must be all in one group because Tom calls it an 'online hate campaign'. 

campaign :-

a series of military operations intended to achieve a goal, confined to a particular area, or involving a specified type of fighting.

work in an organized and active way towards a particular goal, typically a political or social one.

So, Tom thinks that all people that disagree with the GB and the running of JW Org, people all around the earth, are all working together.  Um food for thought there Tom.

Because Tom doesn't think it would be possible to have an inspired Anointed body of men from all around the earth, working together, as the Governing Body... 

But Tom does think it is possible to have all anti witnesses from all around the earth, working together, to from a campaign. 

Now that would look as if Tom has more faith in the devil's world than in Almighty God's power through Christ.  

What i suggest Tom is that you try harder to be a 'Spiritual man' rather than a 'Physical man'.. 

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

While some suffer because they do not want to answer questions about the activities of the organization they belong to, during that time others, in suits and ties, tell the court that they are a clergyman and do not want to divulge secrets aka confidential information. 

Yes there is a crazy imbalance of law and treatment of those breaking the law

Whilst I think it is horrendous that any person should be tortured for any reason, i have more sympathy / empathy with victims of CSA than i do for those who suffer for the sake of an Organisation. 

However I presume in Russia etc it is actual religious persecution, whereas in the other instances it is not.  But many religions in may places have suffered persecution so the activities in Russia etc does not prove the JW Org is 'serving God properly'. 

Yes there seems to be a very fine line between worshipping God through Jesus Christ, or, worshipping Jesus himself. 

If all authority was given to Jesus Christ (as Jesus said)  then it would seem that all Christians also belong to Jesus Christ until the time when Jesus Christ hands all things back to his Father. 

But, in my opinion, the Greek Scriptures were written to the Anointed and not to the earthly class. So those of the Anointed being the Body of Christ, belong to Christ in a much closer way. 

I still ponder on the scripture at Matthew 28 v 19, though, where Jesus says :- 

baptizing themp in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit  

But in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, it says. baptising them INTO the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit. 

I still think the meaning is different because i still think it is speaking about the Anointed. 

But who am I to judge. I am not inspired of holy spirit, nor am I of the Anointed. 

What a load of bunkum. It seems that JTR Jr is looking for a way to gain peace of mind desperately, from any one he can.  Does James worry that he is still American and that America goes to war and murders people ? 

ANY true Christian that is trying to serve God properly, is no longer 'part of this world'.  So they are no longer of an earthly nationality. If they serve God properly they are part of God's Kingdom.

So WAR IS MURDER if you are a true Christian. 

We as Christians are not under the Mosaic Law so why even consider it ? 

The Nation of Israel existed for a few purposes, but mainly to 'produce' Jesus. God wanted that nation to survive but the Nation turned against God, killing Jesus, so God had that Nation destroyed.

But none of that relates to the true Christian personality of today. 

Where is the spirituality on this forum ? Where is the Faith ? Where is the Love ?

The same in the JW Org and Watchtower society, no Faith, no Love, and no SPIRITUAL MEN.

Quote " using  what I had understood from the December 22, 1978 AWAKE!, which I had forgotten where I learned it, many years ago, it shows that Jehovah God does not consider, and never has considered warfare to be murder. "

WRONG. What it shows is that MEN who are NOT INSPIRED, have written such. It proves nothing only that you are prepared to rely on the word of MEN. 

James you seem to have an agenda. But you seem to have made your decision even before you asked any questions. Where is your Wisdom ?

This bit is almost funny Quote "  Christians are alerted to the fact that murders issue from a bad heart. "

And are you saying that WAR doesn't issue from a bad heart ? 

Wars begin with hate, greed, dishonesty, love of power, love of self, and possibly love of murder.

@Witness  A million questions. I'm not saying I will believe all you say, but I need to know where you are coming from. So please tell me what you personally believe, from your own thoughts. 

But what then ? No earthly organisation ?  Or will Yahweh form another organisation here on Earth ? 

Do you believe in Armageddon ? Or a Judgement day ? 

The scriptures say God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth. 

Do you believe in a heavenly class and an earthly class ? 

God's intention was for mankind to live perfectly here on Earth. Surely God intends to follow through with that ?

It's easy to destroy and I agree the GB have to go, and of course the Elders need to lose the power they have over the Anointed. But how do we get to know who the true Anointed are ? And will the true Anointed run an earthly organisation ? 

I know that we will be judged individually by our personal service to God and our love of God, and I know all this must be done through Jesus Christ. But, are we to be united as an earth wide organisation or are we to be serving God as individuals. 

I think the 'world' as it is has a few years to go yet. Yes it's bad but people are still surviving, enough to carry through into a 'new world' system. But I think God wants to have an earthly organisation that is clean and serious about worshipping Him, before He brings the Judgement. 

I also think it will take at least a couple of years to really, either sort of the JW Org, or to bring it to a close. Court cases and government proceedings take so long.  All religions could be made illegal by then. 

But isn't the 'true' religion supposed to out live all other religions ? 

I think what is lacking both on here and in the world of religion, is SPIRITUAL THINKING. 

People still want a 'sign'. JW Org keeps offering 'false signs'. And the CSA is but one problem of many.