Patiently waiting for Truth

I mean, I can imagine 4Jah saying, “oh dear, it looks like TTH knows something besides jw.org bible,” but why CC would have anything to say......

Ah @TrueTomHarley Even when you are not talking about your GB and it's Org, you still miss me  Thank you for thinking of me. It warms my heart. 

I know nothing about our politicians 'this side of the pond' and have no interest in it at all, but I can understand that you guys talking politics gives you a break from discussing the rights and wrongs of how to serve God properly. We all need a break from being too serious all the time. Have fun 

Cesar Chavez was an American labor leader, community organizer, and Latino American civil rights activist.

Is this Billy the Kid ?  He seems to love himself in the same way. 

Don't suppose we could get back on topic maybe ? 

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Same old, same old......   ...... outright attack...... not about the current subject which is about open and closed club but again going back (repetitive behavior) to the same old subject already discussed elsewhere........not worthy of a new answer .......because you are not interested in civility or really listening to a plausible answer.

 

Oh @Arauna you are quite tiresome. Same old same old indeed. 

You going on about OCD again and pretending that JWs are more decent than those that are not JWs.

But I can understand why JWs need a closed club of course. Somewhere to rest and hide. Somewhere to upbuild one another. Whether the upbuilding is of truth or lies matters not in the closed club, as long as it upbuilds. A bit like illegal drugs giving a high. 

And yes I agree that 'out here' it is like a battlefield. But the whole of JW Org is just like other religions, all being part of the world, so it will continue to be a battlefield. 

As for civility, I will give it up in exchange for truth. 

@JW Insider  Thank you for that in depth truthful comment 

On 2/11/2020 at 6:35 PM, Isabella said:

On November 24, 2019, the Sweden Ministry of Culture concluded that Jehovah’s Witnesses “contributed to maintaining and strengthening the fundamental values upon which society is based.” It allows them to receive state funding for religious communities. The same happened in Norway a month later.

https://jw-russia.org/en/news/2020/02/33.html

https://spesial.fvn.no/i/xRWkJp/index_desktop.html

http://www.silentlambs.org/SwedenResponse.htm

Um, Sweden and Norway, I wonder who paid the Ministry of Culture to 'conclude' such things ? 

Have a scroll down on those links for the truth about JW Org Sweden and Norway.  

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I have not yet met those guys.  I met only the ones with OCD and constant accusations..... 

Oh dear not using that old OCD again are you @Arauna and I think Tom is saying He is all of those fake names. 

Quote @Arauna   JWs have to stay decent while others can use dirty tactics. 

Your GB and their lawyers do not 'stay decent', the JWs committing CSA are not decent,  and I thought the GB had given their permission to all JWs to tell lies.  AS @TrueTomHarley would say 'keep up' 

48 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

When GB member Geoffrey Jackson made "clarification" about this question: "Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God's Spokespeople on Earth??

with answer:

"Aaa, that I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only Spokesperson that God is using."

....questions arise: 

What other individuals or groups Mr. Jackson had in mind that are also used by this same God to fulfill His will here on Earth? 

Are they inside WT Society and JWorg, as some illegal FDS GB Body, and are part of Plan B?

Or perhaps this "spokesperson"  is/are in some other religion, institution or are completely outside of any group and organization?

What do you think about it, JW people or anyone else?!

 

 

 

Mark 6 v 39 through 41

But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one who will do a powerful work on the basis of my name who will quickly be able to say anything bad about me. ⁴⁰  For whoever is not against us is for us. ⁴¹  And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.

Luke 9 v 49 & 50 

In response John said: “Instructor, we saw someone expelling demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he is not following with us.”*u ⁵⁰  But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.”

The GB and it's Org try to say that anyone not a baptised JW will not survive Armageddon. I think the scriptures above (from their own Bible) say differently. Although they do try to prevent people by saying people are apostate etc. 

What GB member GJ said is a complete contradiction to what else the GB say.

They say that THEY (those 8 men) are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. They say that God and Jesus Christ trusts THEM. 

But (as tom will keep reminding everyone) I still believe that a True Anointed are 'out there somewhere' and they will do God's will through Christ in the near future. 

I just want to put a few quote togethr here.

Quote @TrueTomHarley " so that if you actually kept up and immersed yourself in scripture and what had been published for the general congregation " 

Quite myself  "Well if a person immersed themselves in scripture they would soon find how the GB and the JW Org misuse scripture to suit their own agenda. "

And myself again "but the problems come from those that are in complete control. The GB / Lawyers, then down from the hierarchy ranks to the Circuit Overseers and Elders.  None of them seem to question anything. They seem to act like zombies or robots. "

Now JWI :-

Quote @JW Insider " 4Jah2me has just reminded us of the mistake Rutherford made about "superior authorities" which was not corrected back to Russell's view until the 1960's. And it made me think that hundreds of brothers, like branch overseers, district overseers, circuit overseers, and elders (whether anointed or not) could easily have known that the teaching was wrong. It seems impossible that any Witness anywhere could read the Bible and not see that this was a mistake. But none of these persons, evidently, had the idea that it would be OK to mention the need to correct this doctrine "

I'll leave it to you to have your own views here. I've proven my point. 

Oh CC what big lies you tell. Quote "In my experience .... "

Well it just proves you don't have much experience then doesn't it, or that you just tell lies because the GB say its ok to tell lies.  

Quote "What you are claiming here is nothing more than ex-witness propaganda.."

That was the same excuse that the GB used about Child Sexual Abuse.

Quote "First and foremost, every true witness is loyal to God not Elders, or the GB"

If a person is loyal to God they would not be a JW at this present time. What does truth have to do with lies, or morality with immorality. You cannot serve two masters.

Quote "and since the GB are a central body of spiritual men that give spiritual direction, .."

Um, how can the GB give spiritual direction as they are not inspired or guided by God or Christ ?

Stupidity such as the 'Overlapping generations' proves it. And more seriously the 'Two witness rule' for Child Sexual Abuse. 

Quote " to follow that spiritual direction unless someone can show just cause biblically there is an error in scriptural application." 

I just have, twice.

I do fully understand that many 'boots on the ground' congregants can be lovely people, and may even have the best intentions. I do not think all JWs are paedophiles or criminals or actually bad people, but the problems come from those that are in complete control. The GB / Lawyers, then down from the hierarchy ranks to the Circuit Overseers and Elders.  None of them seem to question anything. They seem to act like zombies or robots. I think its mainly because of fear of losing position, power, rank, family and friends. 

And the boots on the ground congregants can only eat what they are fed from the JW  table. Because its all they know. 

 James I think you must be bored. 

" no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either .... "

But every nation ON the Earth is 'part of this world' that belongs to the Devil. So why would a Christian even care about the nation's viewpoint. The nation's viewpoint is the Devil's viewpoint. That is why there is so much war.

Are you concerned because America was built on mass murder. Well the British Empire was also built on mass murder too. BUT if we are Christians  WE are no part of that world...

So, Jesus said 'Love your neighbour as yourself'. Neither God nor Christ gives us permission to kill or murder anyone. No matter what the 'world' says is right.

But when the Judgement arrives then God / Christ and the angels, will carry out ' premeditated killing of humans '.  They have the right to do so, we do not. They know how to judge, we do not. 

" Quote every single line of it, (the Shepherd the Flock book ) if you like, and it will simply show a people taking the lead who are determined to follow scripture in doing so. 

What it shows is 'a people' (Elders ) taking orders from 8 men in America, of whom none are inspired of Holy Spirit. Therefore none of them truly understand the meanings of the scriptures at all. This is clearly shown by the Two Witness rule, by the no blood/ blood fractions rule, by the accusation of fornication toward brothers and sisters that are just friends. By the shunning rules, the false reasons for disfellowshipping, the list is never ending. 

" so that if you actually kept up and immersed yourself in scripture and what had been published for the general congregation "

Well if a person immersed themselves in scripture they would soon find how the GB and the JW Org misuse scripture to suit their own agenda. 'This Generation' comes to mind, and 'Superior Authorities' in the past.

But if a person 'kept up' with 'what had been published for the general congregation', all they would get is more of the same falsehood, lies, mistakes, which the GB admit to. ( not inspired so may err ) . 

So, trying to play the Shepherding book down doesn't cut it. It just proves you are a company man Tom. 

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In any organization of any sort, there is always information not meant for general distribution. That does not mean that it is thereby the ‘smoking gun.’

BUT all JWs are supposed to be equal. No clergy class or all clergy class .  All brothers. 

No hierarchy. And it's supposed to be 'the truth'.  So why would you need hidden information ? 

After all its not supposed to be an organisation of the world is it ? 

But remember Tom the whole Elders book is available to read online so we know it is a 'smoking gun'. 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

Because you have made an untrue statement pretending it is a question, and people are not being drawn into it. 

Thank you for this information. I'll have to write it all down and keep it by my computer. 

Modern society seems so quick to want to muzzle people.

No tolerance of different ideologies...............I started off believing in "Free Speech"..

There is a line.... it just seems like the world has moved that line way too close to embracing "Big Brother" mentality

He must be talking about JW Org here 

@JW Insider   I haven't a clue how to work out the references such as  g93 4/8 p. 31

I presume the end bit, p 31 is a page number, but the rest of it means nothing to me. 

Is it possible to get a complete list of reference letters and numbers and their meanings ? 

Quote @TrueTomHarley  " I will say, however—and this is only for 4Jah’s consumption—that after I served as a congregation elder I was whisked away to Bethel where I am now such a high-up secretive honcho that even the Bethelites you see on TV do not know me. They sense my presence, of course, at times the force is quite strong, but they can’t quite identify me in my deep state top assignment."

Why does Elder Tom find this necessary ?  I find it funny of course. Funny that he is so 'concerned' about me. 

BUT, if anyone cannnot see why Tom needs to keep doing this then you are blind. 

25 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.

People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".

There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.

I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.

Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?

....but I digress.

Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.

I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.

But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.

I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.

It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.

Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.

Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.

I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.

Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.

Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
 

 

 

 

 

If you truly believe that war is ok with God then I think you have a problem with your way of thinking.

What God allows and what God likes / agrees with, are probably two totally different things. 

We know that God does not involve Himself in the daily running of the world. The 'world' belongs to the Devil and God has no interest in 'putting little bits of it right'.   

You say that God "has no objection to them .... executing wrongdoers"

Do you have proof of that ? 

Quote "People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder". "

Quote " A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... "

Then that same government that conscripts people into the armed forces is doing likewise. But I presume your disagree with conscription ? 

I think the idea of being a Christian in one sense, is that we take Bible truth and learn from it. By doing so we try to live by Bible principles. One such principle is. 

‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’s ³⁸  This is the greatest and first commandment. ³⁹  The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus here quoted from the LAW given to Moses. But as Christians we should live by the principles of that law. 

‘You must love your neighbour as yourself. 

So, you must decide who your neighbour is James ? 

Could you be loving your neighbour if you were deliberately entering their land with intention of killing them ? 

Stop being American James. If you are a true servant of God then you are no longer American.  Jesus said His Kingdom was no part of this world. So James, just a kind suggestion, stop being part of this world. 

I don't think Jesus was talking to 'us'. I think Jesus was only talking to the Anointed. 

That is why I think a True Anointed remnant will appear soon. The Anointed know who they are, but how ?

Because they are anointed with God's Holy Spirit.  The GB, by their actions have proved not to be truly anointed.

I am of the opinion that this 'world' will continue for at least another 10 years, because an earthly Organisation has to be in place that is totally different from the rest of the 'world'. God's Organisation has to be pure and clean.

It seems to me that no one has real faith anymore. Even JWs seem to doubt the power of God and Christ.

JWs seem quite happy to be in an immoral organisation, just because they say it is less immoral than others.

@Kosonen You wrote that  " Maybe that is why Jesus exaggerated a little bit saying that we would get what ever we ask if we really believe? "

I don't think Jesus exaggerated. I think the Anointed lack faith in Jesus' words.  

Quote @TrueTomHarley  ( talking about me )  “the problem is that you are too stupid to read more than two sentences!” 

And " anything is over your head! "   Tom doesn't stop does he  

Well I read both of the previous long comments you wrote, hence I know that they said nothing of importance. You were just bashing on at those people that have proof of how bad the GB and JW Org really is. 

But you and others tend to lump all those who find fault with the GB and the Org, together. You do it for convenience of course, as an excuse, because you cannot justify many things the GB and Org do. 

You tell me I'm too stupid. That's just you trying to make me appear stupid.  Just like the GB tried to say it was apostates telling lies about CSA. You say the same thing about me, about anything on the web, about anything that shows up the GB and it's Org for what it really is. 

Another quote from dear Tom  "  if that statement is in the Shepherd the Flock book not meant for general distribution, then I would not quote from it even if I had read it. "

No Tom, Elders love to keep secrets from the 'boots on the ground' congregants. It's the only way of keeping people in the Org. To tell them the truth would be like asking them to leave JW Org. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

So far, very little has gone on in that club. There were a few discussions of what people liked or didn't like about recent and/or upcoming Watchtower studies. It was probably considered better to discuss such things without every topic being turned into: "Yes that's true but you also have a CSA problem." You might not believe it, but we had a guy here once who could take any topic, even one about how you might pronounce YHWH, and would still find a way to weave in a dig about CSA.

The point is though @JW Insider that people in the JW Org, general congregants that is, don't know much about CSA in JW Org. Because if they did I'm sure they would find Watchtower studies and Pubic Talks quite funny.... Those that do know, including JWs on here, don't want reminding of it. I suppose the closed club is a nice quiet place where you can all convince each other how wonderful JW Org is and what a great job the GB are doing. Enjoy it. 

@JW Insider  quote " 4J laughs at it, to be sure, .."  

I laugh at dear old Elder Tom because he is deliberately using thousands of words to say what could be said in two sentences.  He is trying to blind people with words. Words that have no real meaning. 

Tom's words :  " detractors, The anti-JW activists are only bellyaching, Opposers will always have limits to their efforts because they have nothing to replace what they would take away, "

Why is Elder Tom so worried that he has to go on so much ? 

It's not as if he is being constructive. 

And you JW I, say "You have several recent posts here that would fit right in to the recent topic that Anna started in the closed club.."

Well now we know what goes on in the 'closed club' then. So funny JWI.  

Can you not see why I laugh ? 

Dear Elder Tom.

If i had the power and authority and the desire, and if the JW Org were the true servant of God

I would replace the CSA  in JW Org, with Child care and love.  To look after widows and orphans as per scripture

I would replace the GB with true Anointed Ones that would receive true guidance through Holy spirit. 

I would replace the wicked elders with true servants of God.

I would replace the lies taught in JW Org with truth and true guidance. 

I would build a true united people to bring glory to Almighty God and to prepare those ones for the coming trials that of course will come before the Judgement. 

Now, Jesus Christ has the power and authority to do those things. But does he have the desire to do those things in JW Org ? If Armageddon is 'so close' why is JW Org in such a mess ?

Is Jesus holding back for some reason ?  Is Holy Spirit being blocked because of the sins of the GB and others of 'high rank' in JW Org ?

But elder tom will call this belly aching, because he hates to face the truth about the poor poor Org. 

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Where have you been TTH? Your pal Evans is on a quest to suggest all kingdom halls are dangerous places and all witnesses are evil pedophiles. An echo of 4jah2me aka John butler.

No wonder I love the Org. It is one organization that is hated so much, ex-witnesses here think the word “hate” is not part of their vocabulary, even though they prove it at every time. I love this site, the humor is overwhelming!

CSA is a global pandemic like the influenza. Everyone is susceptible to the infection, but only ex-witnesses scream bloody murder with disgruntled witnesses agreeing with manipulated and orchestrated facts.

Let alone them not understanding the rules of secular law, even though they just need to google.

TTH, it's a waste of time!

CC I notice you only joined in November last year. I wonder what name you were using before that ?

It's strange you need to join me to someone else to make yourself feel good. Does it boost your confidence or just give you a kick. 

However, yes, Kingdom Halls can be dangerous places if people are not aware of the CSA situation within the JW Org. 

Most victims will say that once Sexual Abuse has happened to them, it cannot be forgotten. And of course most JWs that have no idea about being Sexually Abused, will say that it can be easily forgotten. 

JWs are taught to have an emotional on/off switch. Such a drastic switch that it spends 90% of it's time turned off. Hence they have no fellow feeling, no love.

As for Paedophiles, it only takes one in a congregation of 150 people, especially if that one is an Elder.  No matter what the GB or the Org say, Elders and others do spend time alone with children from the congregation. 

Part of the 'way of life' in JW Org, is to trust one another. It is 'advertised' as a 'safe place' and the Elders are 'advertised' as 'rocks' or 'pillars of strength' to protect the congregants. That is how it is so easy for an Elder to abuse a child. 

In most other churches the people in the congregation hardly even talk to each other. They are not in their church chatting half hour before and half hour after the service.

Hate. It seems to be a word that JWs on here love to use. Some JWs, including CC and TTH it seems, have a need, a longing, to form this opinion about anyone that dares to find fault with the GB and the W/t and JW Org. 

In my opinion, it only shows that the JWs using the word 'hate', are the ones that feel that way toward anyone that criticises the GB Org etc. As for me I have no hate toward any human in general. If a reason came up for me to hate someone it would need to be a very serious reason. 

CSA is global yes. And it is global within the JW Org.  Otherwise why are so many countries now involved in doing investigations into JW Org and W/t.

This forum is a JW forum, hence it concerns only JWs / GB / JW Org / W/t. Hence it is not 'picking on' the JW Org, it is all about the JW Org. 

As for law. I'm more interested in God's laws than man's. 

Quote "There is no redemption for these people" So, CC, has Jesus Christ made you the judge already

You who talk of hate. 

3 hours ago, The Librarian said:

I've added him to my list of JW Celebrities here:

 

You have a list of WHAT ?  Oh dear, HERO WORSHIP  at it's best. 

6 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, and this bring more confusion. JWorg don't have clergy-laity distinction, but have heavenly and earthly class, also have priesthood and not priesthood class, anointed and not anointed class, males as Heads and females as not Heads - BUT all are (male and female) ordained ministers. :))

JW Org pretends not to have clergy - laity distinction.

And some of the anointed are female whilst here on earth. It seems that spirit persons do not have a gender.

However, were all angels that appeared as humans on earth, men ?  

Quote Srecko. " BUT all are (male and female) ordained ministers. :))"  Um, but is this after they are baptised, or is it when they put in a Report sheet for doing ministry ? 

The plot thickens.