Patiently waiting for Truth

But if the GB / Bethel / Circuit Overseers / Elders et al, are allowed to tell half the Org and still pretend it is confidential then that is the biggest immoral / dishonest / unloving / merciless thing ever. It is a loophole of the worst kind. The case may be ten years old, but that does not make it any less important in God's / Christ's opinion surely. Surely THEY would want justice and mercy done ? As JTR (I think it was ) said, the W/t / JW Org is run by the accountants and lawyers . It is not God's Organisation because it proves to be man's. @Srecko Sostar The best option, for Corporation, would be some sort of problems and persecution toward members, without reaching too much for money of organization, without doing financial harm to the corporation. Sadly there is much persecution in Russia. There may be persecution elsewhere but I'm not aware of it. In Russia though it has been financial as well as physical. But it annoys me when JWs pretend that the CSA problems are part of persecution, because in truth they are caused by the dishonesty in the Org itself. In my opinion, whatever is printed in the W/t or in the Shepherding the Flock book, nothing has changed. It will still be hidden, and victims will still be shunned and called liars. JWs will still believe the Elders above the victims. Contacting Bethel / Head Office etc, where those brothers do not really know the people involved / the Elders involved / or the true situation, but can only go by their book of rules, will not bring about justice and mercy that God and Christ require.

Quote @TrueTomHarley ".. because the pattern elsewhere is that the leaders of organizations, religious or otherwise, are the abusers themselves, something rarely true with the Witness organization, .. " Tom you would not know. Because the GB and their lawyers are withholding over 20 years worth of Child Sexual Abuse details in America. How can you possibly know who names are in there ? For you to state that it is rare amongst the JW Org for its 'leaders' to be involved, you would need to have access to those files. Some on here have even said that GB members were homosexuals. And it was also said that a GB member had been accused of sexually abusing someone in Bethel. I think this information came from JWI. My apologies to JWI if I'm wrong. Oh and I read the rest of your comment which I knew would be a total waste of my time, and it was. You go of on a tangent talking about world affairs and then you go 'gay-bashing' but pretend not to be. Then you do your normal JW thing by blaming those that tell the truth about your GB and JW Org. You try to turn the tables on those people that have found true faults in your Org. You use that stupid old pretence that all people that find fault must be d/fed JWs. Sorry Tom that idea died long ago. Although you don't admit it, there are REAL VICTIMS of CSA that have PROVEN that Elders and others have misused their 'authority' in the Org and hidden the truth and/or lied about CSA in the JW Org. But keep up your story telling Tom, some naive ones might believe you.

I think there is a scripture that says Jesus was seen by up to 500 people. 1 Corinthians 15 v 6. New International VersionAfter that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. New King James VersionAfter that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. We know that Jesus 'took on human form' when he was resurrected, so as to 'prove' his resurrection. We have the account of Thomas too. But we know that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit and merely 'used' human form to show himself to humans.

@"a holy place" Oh dear, and do you believe all that you've written or copied ? Quote "The problem isn't trying to figure out ‘the times and seasons’, it’s contending with the disappointment of not getting it right at “the proper time” and moving past that." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is something that I quoted from '@a holy place', as you can see. However @Arauna does this :- You will be so busy fighting and contending that Armageddon will be here and you still would not recognize it...... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I do hope others don't suffer in this way. That poor woman seems to need to misquote me every time. She is pretending that they are my words she is answering when in fact they are from a quote of someone elses. Why does this woman need to do this to me every time ?

@TrueTomHarley I read half of it Tom, but you do tend to go over the top. One thing i find quite funny is the FACT that the GB / JW Org change the use of their conscience when it affects their bank account. In many countries JW Preaching is AGAINST THE LAW. But as the apostles said 'We must obey God as ruler rather than men'. So in many countries Witnesses deliberately break the law to preach. BUT, the GB / JW Org won't 'break the law' to protect young children from being Sexually Abused. Even if it it not a legal requirement' to report, SURELY it IS a requirement from GOD through CHRIST to report all forms of Abuse, Child or Adult, to those authorities which GOD HAD PUT IN PLACE. Berean Study Bible James 1 v 27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. New International Version Romans 13 v 1Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Christian Standard BibleLet everyone submit to the governing authorities, since there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are instituted by God. Your GB and its Org have no excuse. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Church stands by its decision The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints said it considers protecting victims a top priority, and has a 24-hour help line to report abuse. " It seems that they have more of a conscience and better morality than the GB and JW org. They may have broken man's law but they obeyed God's law. And no I do not want to be a Mormon. But I think there is a scripture somewhere that says something like, 'when those without law do the things of the law' And of course it is talking about God's law not man's.

Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality? by Alexandra James As many activists know, the Montana Supreme Court reversed a $35 million judgment against Jehovah's Witnesses recently, in a case involving the religion's failure to report child sex abuse to the authorities. (See this news story.) Confidentiality Trumps Mandatory Reporting Laws The court noted when religious authorities are exempt from the state's mandatory reporting laws; from page 14 of their ruling: In other words, if someone communicates something to their clergy and expects that information to remain confidential, that clergy member is not required to report that information to authorities or anyone else. Jehovah's Witnesses Promise Confidentiality to Congregants The decision by the state justices referred to statements made by Dave Chappel,¹ "a Jehovah’s Witnesses Service Department elder designated by the Watchtower and CCJW [The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses] boards of directors to serve as their representative in this litigation": In short, Chappel argued that congregants in the religion are promised that things discussed with elders remain strictly confidential. Chappel used this promise of confidentiality as a legal argument against requirements of reporting child sex abuse to the authorities. The Deception Over "Confidentiality" There is a problem with this so-called promise of confidentiality, however. The 2010 edition of "Shepherd the Flock of God," the handbook used by Jehovah's Witness elders, chapter 7, paragraph 15, says: These instructions are repeated in the 2019 versions of the "Shepherd" book, in chapter 15, paragraph 15. In other words, these so-called promises of keeping things confidential are rubbish. Elders are outright instructed to share things said during judicial committee cases with other elders, the circuit overseer, and the branch office as they see fit, without informing the "wrongdoer." I'm not a lawyer so I have no input as to how this information affects any legal case, if at all. However, set that aside; from a moral point of view Jehovah's Witnesses were, at the very least, downright deceitful in their arguments. They don't ensure confidentiality during the judicial committee process, even instructing elders to use someone's name in certain discussions and to not tell that person that they'll be sharing their supposed confidential information. Whatever anyone's legal arguments and outcome of any court case, there is no doubt in my mind that Jehovah's Witnesses continuously fail child sex abuse victims in their religion. They keep the secrets of molesters, fail to warn parents, fail to notify authorities, fight victims in court, and say whatever they can to protect their assets over their children. I'm heartbroken over how the court's decision must make those victims feel, and knowing that the case was reversed based on a dishonesty obviously doesn't make things any easier to accept. *** *** ¹It's my understanding that the person's name was Douglas, not Dave. *** *** ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This came through to me today, so I thought I'd share it. Whilst I don't fully agree with massive payouts to victims (or lawyers), I do agree with a payout of a reasonable amount accompanied with an apology from the Org. It never puts the wrong, right. It never can. But it would give the Victim a closure and a sort of 'contentment' of actually being believed. Yes i know that lawyers and solicitors rub their hands greedily for their financial gain, but that must be on both sides i would think. Or do the GB's lawyers do it out of love ? One thing this article does point out for sure, is that there is no confidentiality within JW Org, they just share the secrets amongst themselves. Hopefully more brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and report any wrongdoings to Police and Authorities as it still seems that Elders are exempt from doing so.

It's unfortunate people like (4jah2me) want to continue in ignorance @Tom Henry Please do tell me what i want to continue in ignorance of ? I'd love to here your opinion

@Arauna said " To you they are stupid videos........ so I wonder who is really puffed up ? " It has not been me that has posted those videos on here. It has not been me that has gone looking for such videos. I only know about those videos from other peoples post on here. We don't need to go into subject matter but even some JWs seem to find them stupid, pointless and certainly lacking any spiritual guidance.

Quote @Anna " But I think that has always been your stumbling block. Your insistence that there must be NO mistakes and NO fault, despite knowing that all humans, including the anointed are imperfect, and that all those inspired and God fearing men in Bible times (Hebrew and Greek scriptures) made mistakes, some quite major ones. " So Anna, do you think those Bible writers made mistakes in what they actually wrote ? Is the written word wrong ? Were the Hebrew scriptures not inspired of God ? Was The Revelation not inspired by God ? You see, what you seem to be saying is that humans making mistakes is the same as Bible writings being mistakes. Because you use the excuse that humans misusing scripture is because they are human and make mistakes. So maybe then you think that humans writing scripture made mistakes in their writings, because they are human. You and others deliberately misquote me by saying that I expect perfection from people. You use this to try to defeat my comments and ideas. It is quite sad to read actually. It shows that you have nothing else to offer. An example of my thinking. I know that I am imperfect and that i do things wrong. However if i look at a map (not sat nav) I can drive to London without getting lost. Is that simple to understand. I, as an imperfect person can follow a map and reach my destination. The map of course is made by an experienced person who has the knowledge and capability to design it and print it. So, the belief is that the scriptures are written, compiled, and printed with the help of God's Holy Spirit. Now where is the common sense of God doing all that if He doesn't follow through and INSPIRE the Anointed to interpret the scriptures properly ? It makes no difference how many 'mistakes' / sins / wrongdoings that those Anointed may do in their personal lives. That is directly between them and God or Christ. But surely God would have an honest Organisation that would be able to, with the inspiration of holy spirit, interpret and give the proper food at the right time. OR give NO food at all if it wasn't the right time to give it. If God used imperfect men to write the scriptures PROPERLY, then God would also use imperfect men to understand those scripture PROPERLY and to feed His people PROPERLY. Why would God deliberately waste time and have His name dishonoured, because God didn't bother to inspire the Anointed to 'do the job properly' ? It does not make any sense. I could understand there being NO 'food' / message, but why a false message, poisonous food ? You mentioned the January W/t I think which says exactly what I've been saying for a long time. Ten men clinging to the skirt of a JEW. But the JEW would have to be seen to be guided by Almighty God. Do you honestly think the JW Org can be seen as being guided by Almighty God ? With all it's 'mistakes' and all its immorality, and all its injustice in the courtrooms. Even many JWs, including some on here, are not completely in favour of the GB and the way JW Org is being run.

@"a holy place" Oh dear, and do you believe all that you've written or copied ? Quote "The problem isn't trying to figure out ‘the times and seasons’, it’s contending with the disappointment of not getting it right at “the proper time” and moving past that." That is so funny when you look back at all the failed predictions. Predictions that would not have been made if God was actually 'running the show'. It is one thing for you to suggest that God 'didn't give all the information at one time'. BUT why would God deliberately want His org to tell lies or make false predictions ?

Two facts. 1. I answered your question. 2. You didn't like my answer. So lets move on like adults, yes.

Was in the Jan 2016 WT, but here is the latest, Jan 2020 basically saying the same thing in par 7, as the 2016 WT Thank you @Anna for sharing this information. Two points. 1. JEHOVAH foretold about our time: “Ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: ‘We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.’” (Zech. 8:23) The “Jew” here represents those whom God has anointed by holy spirit. They are also called “the Israel of God.” (Gal. 6:16) The “ten men” represent those who have the hope of living forever on earth. They know that Jehovah has blessed this group of anointed ones and feel that it is an honor to worship him along with them. How long have i been saying this on this forum ? Long before this was available in print. BUT the JEW is not the GB or its Writing department. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. 7 Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of an exclusive club. They do not search out other anointed ones, hoping to discuss their anointing with them or to form private groups for Bible study. (Gal. 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did those things. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity Your GB are frightened. And what right do your GB have to tell other Anointed that they would be 'working against the holy spirit' ? This shows exactly how the GB are exalting themselves. They think they have the right to tell other Anointed what to do and what not to do.

Quote @Anna " It’s already been done with the apostles. It’s already all there in writing, in the scriptures for all to see. When the first Bible students got together under Russell, all they did was peel away years of false teachings of Christendom and exposed the grass roots of the Truth. " 1. Yes it's all there in the scriptures, but scriptures get misused, even by the GB / JW org. 2. The FIRST Bible Students were the International Bible Students Association under Russell. They were Earth wide. They still are. The JW Org under Rutherford were apostates to those first Bible Students. But as you say many true meanings of many scriptures came forth way back then under Russell. Unfortunately it seems that Rutherford was too ambitious / big headed or something, and took on the role that he should never have taken on. Read the history.......... Quote @Anna " That was the whole point of the Christian congregation, which in those days must have represented the body of Christ because it was composed exclusively of the anointed. Today, the congregation, or body of Christ, remains undisturbed, as Jesus is still their head and the head of the congregation. " Are you trying to suggest that the 'congregation' (present time) are the 'body of Christ ? Is this now GB / JW teaching ? I do hope not. If so that would certainly be putting the Anointed down.

Quote @Anna " I wonder what would cause someone to actually say “this is not what I have signed up for”. Maybe you have a few ideas? " Child Sexual Abuse / Paedophilia hidden within the JW Org. Victims of CSA having been disfellowshipped for complaining to Elders. Victims of CSA being shunned for going outside the Org for help. Immoral, dishonest lawyers being used by the GB to tell lies in court cases. The GB exalting themselves above the other Anointed. As it seems the complete remnant was the F&DS but now it's only those 8 Men. The GB suggesting that the rest of the Anointed 'keep quiet and do as they are told' by the GB / Elders of congregations. The failed 'prophecies' of the JW Org. (1975 being one) The misuse of scriptures. Superior Authorities being one. The hypocrisy of the GB / Org advising people to read their own Bible, BUT not to have their own thoughts on scriptures. The statement by one of the GB that 'God and Jesus Christ trusts us' whilst admitting finally that they are NOT inspired and do get things wrong. The list could be endless of course, as the GB are so puffed up with themselves, and make so many stupid videos and make up new rules as they go along. One such, that if a man and a woman spend a night in the same house they will be accused of fornication.... Strange in this day and age but if two men or two women spend a night in the same house I doubt they will be accused of homosexuality. And then it seems they are begging kids to give their ice cream money to the Org, whilst the Org is running big business project under different names. IBSA Properties London is one of them. Enough for now Anna ?

As I'm not inspired of Holy Spirit I can't answer that question. The Revelation of course was inspired as basically it would not exist otherwise. But as to whether all of Paul's writings were inspired, I don't know. My point was though that I don't think Paul saw his letters as being inspired when he wrote them. He wrote in a rather blunt and direct way. @Srecko Sostar has some good points / questions about the 'gathering together' of the writings of the Greek / NT. I don't have memory, though i would once have known, about whom gathered Greek writings together. I think @Srecko Sostar has written that it was the Catholics that gathered those writings together and he asks, 'Did those people have the guidance of Holy Spirit' to collect the correct writings together. I've heard of other writings that were not included. But I'll repeat again, that scripture in 2 Timothy 3 v 16 saying 'All scripture is inspired ... ' was written before some of the other Greek writings. And as JWI pointed out, when in context it proves it refers to the Hebrew Scriptures. So if the GB / W/t / JW Org pretend that it refers to the whole Bible then that is being dishonest. I've known JWs use it to mean the complete Bible and of course most people who haven't studied the Bible will not know. However it shows dishonesty.

I think the debate about it will continue, just as the problem within the JW Org continues, and will continue for a few more years. Just because their dishonest immoral lawyers save them some money does NOT mean that God approves of the GB or its Org.

Quote @Arauna " Correct me if I am wrong? So you do NOT believe that the bible is inspired? " As usual you take things out of context. Deliberately of course, I know that. However @JW Insider has answered it. I was of course talking about the scripture being taken out of context, because YOU mentioned people on here doing just that. The apostle Paul was referring to the Hebrew Scriptures, as @JW Insider made clear.... BUT, where I disagree with JWI is that the Greek scriptures, were not considered inspired back in the days of the Apostles. Do you think Paul would have considered his letters to the congregations as inspired ? Would Paul have written to Timothy that His own letters were inspired ? I don't think so. In my personal opinion Paul was only referring to the Hebrew Scriptures that he knew Timothy was aware of. On 1/8/2020 at 11:17 AM, 4Jah2me said: Quote @Anna Ahh, the faults of the GB. Well this too has been brought out many times, that faults and mistakes will will happen, just as they did with Jesus’ disciples. Did Jesus or the disciples ever put a date on a prophecy and then it didn't take place ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote @Arauna "Jesus gave them signs to recognize when the Roman's would be there in the holy place.......they had to be aware of the first Roman invasion to know they must flee before the second invasion would come..... but both if you believe we must not look at signs...... it is all spiritual... " LOOK AT THE TOP STATEMENT WHICH I WROTE. NOW LOOK AT THE QUOTE @Arauna USED TO ANSWER FROM Do you see a difference ? @Arauna has deliberately missed words off the end of the sentence. She continues to misquote and chop words off sentences just to completely change the meaning of things. That, unfortunately, is JW practice. Misquotes and misapplication. Twisting things people write and say. Hence it is not possible at time to have sensible debate with such ones, as what they do is tantamount to deliberately telling lies.

I think you are either naive or deliberately trying to defend the GB / Org as usual. The company here in the UK is not a spiritual one, it is a business one. I am also thinking the Watchtower / GB / JW Org have more business companies earthwide. It might be good for a Government department in the USA to investigate the complete income of W/t / GB / JW Org et al. After all if they have nothing to hide they wouldn't mind handing over information. Oh yes of course they don't hand over information do they. They keep secrets. The GB and their lawyers can act illegally or immorally and call it spiritual warfare it seems. The latest info from Montana proves that. HELENA, Mont. -- The Montana Supreme Court on Wednesday reversed a $35 million judgment against the Jehovah's Witnesses for not reporting a girl's sexual abuse to authorities. ... However, the state's high court said in its 7-0 decision that the Jehovah's Witnesses fall under an exemption to that law in this case.14 hours ago Court reverses $35M verdict against Jehovah's Witnesses ...

Quote @Arauna Every person will only be accountable for him/herself. This should be true. But if a person is not a JW, or if a person was a JW but has since left the JW Org because they no longer believe the JW teachings, or because they have decided that JW Org is 'unclean', then according to the GB / JW Org, that person had 'no chance' anyway. Because the JW teaching is that one MUST BE a Baptised JW to 'be saved'. So do you believe that, as you say 'Every person will only be accountable for him/herself.' ? Or do you believe it depends on whether you are a Baptised JW or not ? Or both ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote "there are people on this forum who do not use scripture in context ..." Ever since Chapter and Verse of the Bible has been numbered, they have been used out of context. It sometimes makes me think that the devil was involved in such numbering. The only time it is in context is when the 'book' / 'letter' / writing is read from start to finish. Just taking a scripture out of a letter of Paul for instance, makes it out of context against how it was originally written. A prime example of taking scripture out of context is the 2 Timothy 3 v 16 " All scripture is inspired of God... " Written in 65 (NWT), so written before 1, 2, 3, of John and before Revelation, and Paul would not have thought his writings as scripture. Add to this that a Bible complete had not be constructed at the time. However the JW Org use that scripture in Timothy to refer to the whole Bible as being inspired, where as it would seem that Paul would have been meaning the Hebrew Scriptures. So when you talk about out of context, you can easily apply that to your GB and it JW Org.

Quote @Anna " Hopefully, before we signed up to become one of JWs we have already cleared that up and accepted the interpretation of JWs. " A person can get baptised at 10 years of age. That person can then live another 70 years. = 80 years old. Don't you know that GB / JW Org "interpretation " of scriptures can change a dozen times in 70 years. In other words, 'This is not what i signed up for'. quote " How do you suggest they should be in contact earth wide? " You answered this one your self next para' down. Quote " In the days before the internet communication, to be of any value, would have been difficult. Today, this is surely a lot easier, but not everyone is able to communicate via the internet. " Actually telephones and fax machines have been around a longggggggg time. and people used to write letters too. " I joked, and said any True Tom Harley could claim they were anointed. Can you imagine how that would work? It could become a total mess ... " I thought that was funny, but frightening.... Quote "The GB is not concerned if the anointed communicate with each other., It is everyone's right to communicate with all of the brotherhood. " But the GB via the W/t did say that the Anointed would not / should not communicate with each other earthwide. I wish i had the W/t to quote it from. It became a topic on here a long time ago. This has to be your best though :- Quote " if some "false anointed" communicated whatever they liked. How would one sift what was genuine from what wasn't genuine? " So tell me Anna, how does 'one' sift what is false from what is genuine ? Because your GB are not inspired by holy spirit and they and their Writing Dept' just write what they think is right. And we needn't go into false prophecy and dates need we. And misuse of scripture such as 'superior authority' and changes of teachings / belief such as 'the blood issue'. But congregants still follow like sheep, following 'false anointed' that tell lies. And you would be concerned about the anointed emailing each other earthwide ?

It seems to be a battle between God and Satan that has to be settled once and for all time. Humans and angels are onlookers, but angels have greater knowledge of what its all about. God has to show once for all time that He has the right to rule in Heaven and over the Earth. So, humans are almost like pawns in a chess game. Humans can be resurrected so the death of humans is not so important to God. God really does have to prove His right to rule, and to prove He has the power to complete the task. The fact of continuing the human race is probably secondary but to have a human race that will willingly serve Him will be part of the defeat of Satan.

Quote @TrueTomHarley "It sounds like what you want is democracy in your place of worship—theocracy by the people, as though ‘if the people come to believe it, it must mean that God has so influenced them.’ It doesn’t work that way. " Um, I think that is what JW Org has got. 8 men and a writing department have come to believe it, it must mean that God has so influenced them. But as you say, it doesn't work that way. Your GB and it's Writing dept' are not inspired by holy spirit, they only have their own ideas to go by. Quote TTH "Plainly, there must be some interface between the divine and the human. Integral to the faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses is that that interface is the successor of those who brought the truth to us in the first place—whoever fills the shoes of the “older men in Jerusalem.” " Oh no, are you now trying to say that the GB are descendants of the Apostles. Fail Tom. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote TTH "I know where you are coming from on this, but it is overstated. One doesn’t have to believe every little thing, though to be sure, one is encouraged to. But you don’t have to...." Oh yes you do. For two reasons. 1. If you dare to differ, you will be D/fed for 'causing a division in the congregation' 2. You will get this scripture thrown in your face. Hebrews 13 v 17 7 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among youz and be submissive, Quote TTH "For most people, the only examination one must make of their vehicle is to observe that it gets them from place to place, ... " It's not the vehicle, it's the bad drivers, the GB and it's teachings, and the Elder policemen. The GB certainly go from place to place but not in the right direction and with no guidance. Quote TTH "Maybe he will provide a “true anointed” (essentially from scratch) within ten years. " Nice that you are keeping this in mind Tom. But you keep wanting to change it though, to misquote me, but ok if it keeps you happy................ True Anointed inside 5 years ,then another 5 years to gather people in, then Judgement. It is going to take at least another 3 years to clean out the JW Org, because American courts / authorities seems to have a deal going down with the GB whereby the JW Org isn't being completely investigated by whomever has the authority. It seem that other 'civilised' countries have investigations either done or in process, so why not the USA ? Must be a deal going down

The plot thickens then, or deepens. Thank you for the info. But are there still two IBSA's. One serving JW Org and the other opposed to it ? And it seems the W/t / JW Org have other companies under different names earth wide, so are they business companies / real estate etc ?

Once again silence. @Arauna did answer , but more so to divert attention to what the Org says is God's name. It seems that the International Bible Students Association took God's message to the world long before the name Jehovah's Witnesses was thought of. But it also seems that the JW Org is trying to hide the IBSA now. Has no one any information on this ? Or is it too sensitive a subject ?

@Anna said "Oh really? Well they are not holding mine, and I am sure I am not the only one whose hand they're not holding." Oh dear. You can see the words that i made bold. 'an elder' 'telling us how to think'. But dear Anna choose to pick the word she wants to play with. Elders telling congregants how to think goes along with that first scripture about being obedient and submissive or in fact being domineered and giving in under pressure. This can be applied to talks given in KH or at Assemblies. Congregants are expected to take all of it as being 'from God' and therefore being expected to submit to every bit of it. To the point, and unfortunately I can't quote perfectly but, something about congregants being obedient even if the order given seems unreasonable. There we are Anna, I've just done to you as you did to me. I think it's called dissecting a conversation. Have a good day.