Patiently waiting for Truth

Quote  @TrueTomHarley  "Either way you cut it, divorce is a traumatic experience. There is the person who realizes the importance of picking up the pieces and moving on.

There is also the psycho ex-mate who just cannot let go and who pours all his energy into destroying his former marriage mate. This is never thought healthy and sometimes restraining orders must be issued.

Which ex-mate do you resemble? "

Then there is the third kind. The kind that will give his time willingly to gives warning to others to keep away, because the ex in a known danger.  

Because the JW Org is such a dangerous place to be right now, and it deliberately deceives people with lies and threats. 'Only baptised JWs will be saved'  'Armageddon is so very close, it's just around that very close corner'. ' You must be one of us now to be saved'. Whilst hiding paedophiles in it's midst and shunning anyone that might disagree with the GB / Elders et al. So I give the warning but i do not hate anyone.  I cannot understand how you people cannot understand me. You expect me to hate, you may even want me to hate. But i don't hate. Jesus didn't hate, even when he was dying He didn't hate. 

By the way, divorce isn't so traumatic, it's just a tad inconvenient. Having gone through two it just wastes money and time. Living far away from both of them I never see them and rarely think of them. I have no bad feelings toward them either. We spent time together, they went off with others, so be it.  I hope they both have happy lives now. But you Tom, seem to need to make me out as the 'bad guy'.  

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course. If Jesus “controlled” elders in the remote-control sense that these characters seem to think he should, then his message to the seven congregations of Revelation would consist of seven thumbs-up.

MR Harley, who are 'these characters' you talk of. 

14 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Thank you for proving my point.

Did you attend the same college JTR attended? Please, give me a heads up, so as not to attend that school of higher education.

@César Chávez It seems it was you that totally missed the point.  You are showing dictionary meaning of  WORLDLY 'wisdom'.

BUT what I said was GODLY WISDOM.       There is such a difference, as Jesus made clear to us.

What i seem to have proven is that you are a 'physical man' not a 'spiritual man'.  Maybe you use your dictionary more than you Bible .  

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Thank you. I like your example, it fits well. 

However i feel to 'endure' as part of the JW Org, is to be part of the problems it causes.

We are all different but for my part I could not continue in an organisation that I know is displeasing to God and Christ.  But i do think that before Armageddon / Judgement day, that God will provide that Switzerland which is needed to help true worshippers to survive into God's new world. 

This is the Dodo calling the world from England  

@TrueTomHarley Do you ever wonder why people get divorced ? 

Well one big reason is simply that people change. The person that one marries may be a wonderful, giving, loving, person. But somewhere down the line that person one marries may change. Of course both people will change to some degree. But if the marriage partner turns unpleasant, selfish, dishonest, disloyal, and even cruel, then it is understandable that one may choose to leave and maybe even divorce. 

So it is with the JW Org. It has changed. Changed so much it is barely recognisable. Changed so many of it's beliefs and doctrines. Changed even those who are supposed to be the F&DS. Changed to become selfish and only concerned about it's own welfare. Suddenly the 'hidden leaders' are paraded in front of the whole world. Those 8 MEN are seen as heroes, those whom call themselves the F&DS. And of course the 'dirty washing' of probably 70 + years, is suddenly revealed, as scripture said it would be. Things done in darkness are brought out into the light... Then of course we have the GB that gives it's blessing to the telling of lies, and they call it 'spiritual warfare'.  So, therefore, anything can be said and done. A scripture, but you know I'm useless at such things,  something about, 'wrong being seen as right, and right being seen as wrong'. So now lies are seen as right before God it seems. Well in the eyes of the GB and Co anyway. 

So the Jehovah's Witnesses that i joined so long ago was not the JW Org of out present day. Back then it had some element of truth and some meaning and purpose, other than it's own selfishness. But now it is just a shell which has been filled with disgusting things..... Add to this that back then there was NO internet. There was no quick way of researching things. It was not possible to compare information and to decide for one's self what was right or wrong. Only recently has this been possible... So there is your answer Mr Harley. The Org is not what it was, and the information, some of which is freely available on here, was not so available back then. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The point is that our personal salvation is not the central issue before all creation. It is a relative detail. God has bigger fish to fry and we do not imagine that it is all a about us. This is not the case with some faiths, at least, judging from the preponderance of their writings.

I agree with you totally on this. That Almighty God is vindicated and His name (whatever it may be) is made clean. Those are the important issues. And that those in the heavens as well of those here on Earth have been given an answer once and for all times. We should all know that it is not about us. We are as dust. So indeed as you say 'God has bigger fish to fry'. 

I was very taken with one article long ago (and I wrote a post on it) that ‘we are not so presumptuous so as to think that our personal salvation is the central issue of the universe’—this after pondering the vast outstretches of space. Much of Christendom, especially the evangelical variety, does think this way.

But of course your GB /Org do believe that ONLY BAPTISED JWs WILL GAIN SALVATION'. 

Quote @TrueTomHarley  His opinion?!!

Can you imagine how @James Thomas Rook Jr., not to mention yourself, would have blown a gasket back then?

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Ah but there is the difference. To ADMIT it is one's own opinion. BUT the GB pretend they are the F&DS and in so doing they pretend to be giving God's words or Christ's instructions to the congregation. 

Do the Watchtower writers / GB ever say 'This is only our opinion' ?  Do they ever say 'This message is not from God or Christ, it is just from us'

No i don't think so. The GB say ' Jehovah and Jesus Christ trusts us, so the congregation should trust us' 

Quote @TrueTomHarley "I put stock in passages such as 2 Timothy 3:16....All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness," 

But that scripture must have been referring to the Hebrew writings as the Greek writings hadn't been completed or gathered at that time. As you yourself said those 'chosen ones' didn't know their words were to be included in the later books of a collection of writings we call the Bible or Holy Scriptures. 

I love the way you have to make fun of people that prove you and your Org wrong on so many counts. It shows the hurt that you and others feel. The bruising of your heart when some of us make valid points. True I do tend to generalise a bit. And true, many 'boots on the ground' JWs / basic congregants, can be 'nice people' sometimes. But I just feel sorry for those ones, they have stopped using their own minds and hearts, and have knuckled under to carry the heavy loads put on them by the GB and Elders and all those in between. Maybe i should change my user name to dodo  ....  It's raining again here. I hope the weather is better where ever you are. 

@Arauna Would I expect you to agree with my findings ? Of course not. You serve your GB and Org well. You defend them well. Pity you will not see the truth of my words though. 

You say 'Your diagnoses are always terminal'  But that is not true. Where there is life there is hope. 

You say 'Wrong assumption and wrong diagnosis'....  You say that because you serve your GB / Org.

But it is true that the Watchtower writers have written that 'only baptised JWs will gain salvation'. And it is also true that they have written that 'Armageddon is so close / just around the corner' etc. Even to the point of putting dates on it in the past. So put those two things together and it comes out as false teachings that are supposed to frighten people into joining the JW Org quickly 'to get saved'. 

You say 'We need the ransom sacrifice as much as everyone else -we do not think we are perfect.'

I agree that Jesus gave his life willingly so that those that God/Jesus Christ approve of will get saved.  I agree that anyone who has common sense will admit that they are not perfect. However, using the fact that 'we are not perfect', as an excuse for committing deliberate sin, is not how anyone should behave. So, for an Organisation and/or its leaders to commit deliberate sins only shows that organisation for what it really is. 'By there works you will know them'.

You say 'When we plod on under difficult circumstances and even persecution, ...'

You call it endurance. Well you know one reason people 'plod on' in your Org. Because if they leave they lose every human contact that they know. They are shunned. So people 'plod on' serving the great idol JW Org just so that they have 'friends' / contacts / helpers in their daily lives. Especially older folks that need regular help. It's a social club, and that is why it is so dangerous for young children. 

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

That's why the Watchtower went with their own bible, so not to be confused with that of the KJV!

John Butler (4jah2me), you can down vote all you want. The thing to remember, the jeopardy question for 1200, what is intelligence!

Intelligence isn't important. Did Jesus go to those well versed in scripture or having great knowledge ? Those that thought they were of high intelligence ? No.

What is important is Godly Wisdom 

It is still so funny how JWs need to compare modern day Elders to those Anointed Christians of the first century. Anointed Christians back then were inspired of God, hence they wrote Bible books that we have now. Obviously the apostates were not inspired of God.

Elders, just like the GB, are not inspired by God, and do not have a clue. There really is no comparison. 

I have faith that God through Christ will inspire Anointed ones again soon.  

Why would God need to set up another Anointed Organization to do the work that is almost complete?

There is NO Anointed Organisation right now.  Your GB admit that they are not inspired and the Writing department are also not inspired by God.  They try to frighten people into the JW Org by saying that 'only those baptised JWs will be saved at Armageddon'.  They ask for donations, even the children's ice cream money, via those videos.

Your GB tell their lawyers to tell lies in courts to blame the victims of CSA, to try to keep the JW Org looking clean from the outside. But it is of no use. Because Jesus said to first clean the inside of the dish or bowl then the outside would also be clean. 

The JW Org is full of wicked men, Elders doing jobs that they are not fit to do. Elders judging congregants by the GB's rules not by God's standards. Elders hiding paedophiles in the JW Org.  So much adultery too and divorces. Squabbles over money and property.  Unfortunately I have too much information for my own good.... It just depresses me. 

And don't compare it to the Nation of Israel because people were born into that nation and had no choice but to be in it. But JWs choose to be JWs so should be better people, but many of them lead double lives.  I always found I was disappointed when i got to know any of them well. They look so nice and pleasant in their clean posh clothes, but their hearts are not so clean.  And they have no faith in God or Christ, they just plod on serving the JW Org. 

The Insight Book is from the Org, because they are frightened to answer honest questions. 

And you @b4ucuhear just follow the GB / Orgs directions blindly. 

I like the second scripture you used 

1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, 4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and dates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth..." 

The Bible Students and the Directors / GB / of Watchtower & JW Org have constantly argued about things. GB members have bee d/fed. Some on here that have worked in Bethel can give you first hand information about regular squabbles there. 

And the puffed up with pride bit, defo' refers to the GB calling themselves the F&DS. 

The more I'm reading on here, the more I am understanding one big problem that Jehovah's Witnesses have. What problem ?

Jehovah's Witnesses lack FAITH. 

JWs seem to only recognise physical things. There are scriptures, i know not where, about the physical man verses the spiritual man. How the physical man sees only the things seen with the physical eyes. Where as the Spiritual man sees Spiritual things with his 'heart' as well as physical things with his eyes.

JWs, it seems, need to have physical things to 'have faith in'.  Hence the need for the GB and the JW Org and the Watchtower magazines, and the Kingdom Halls, all physical things that JWs 'worship'.  And, as has been mentioned on here many times, physical DATES. 1914, 1918, 1975, et al. 

So many videos that can be downloaded. A 'workbook' for the evening meeting. And how many Bible Student / JW books have been printed since the beginning of the Organisation/s. How many Watchtowers and Awake magazines over the last 100 years. All physical things. 

The dates / years, are given to 'encourage' or frighten people to be part of the Org. Some on here have mentioned how many Bible Students / JWs have needed a date that was within their own lifetime. What a lack of Faith. 

@TrueTomHarley quite often mocks me for having the faith i have. When i say that God through Christ will have the true Anointed running a true Organisation before the Judgement day arrives, Mr Harley says that i still believe in Father Christmas. So who is Mr Harley actually mocking ? 

Lets just take a minute to think about a couple of thing that God has actually done by using His Holy Spirit. 

God created His 'first born spirit son'. God created the Angels. Then God and His son worked together to create the heavens and this Earth. 

God gave Noah instructions to build the Ark, and then God flooded the Earth.

God brought ten plagues on Egypt, then God 'opened up the Red Sea for Moses and the Israelites to pass through.

God sent an angel to destroy, how many soldiers, in one night. Thousands. 

God transformed His spirit son into an 'human embryo ' and placed him inside Mary's womb. God gave power to Jesus to heal people and raise the dead. 

God resurrected Jesus from the dead as a spirit, and then carried Jesus of to heaven in spirit form. 

So just a couple of examples of what God is capable of. 

BUT Mr Harley and possibly others, because of there lack of Faith, do not believe that God can set up a true spirit Anointed Organisation here on Earth within our time or before Judgement time.  

Why do they not believe ? Because JWs have no faith and seem to rely only on physical things, not SPIRITUAL THINGS. 

The faith of JWs seems to rely on what the 8 men of the GB can do, not on what God or Christ can do. 

@b4ucuhear  It was sarcasm. But i see it stung. The truth as they say, hurts sometimes, and you are hurt by truth. I'm not going into the list of dates from the late 1800's through to 1975 and probably more afterwards too. You will know of such things, or you will have built yourself a wall to hide from them. 

But i see you are a typical JW, no real strength of faith, so you have to hide behind that old old word 'apostate'. 

Quote @TrueTomHarley  " You could easily make the case that it didn’t flow in the first century either. "

I don't think it flowed 24/7.  But if it did then God works in mysterious ways. 

I certainly don't think it flows now. 

@b4ucuhear 

Quote " Also, who and at what point would a faithful and discreet slave manifest themselves..."

I don't think there is a F&DS as such. I don't think anyone should give themselves that title. If Jesus as the Master returns and finds a certain group of humans doing what he wants them to do, then Jesus himself will decide who that 'slave' is. BUT for a person or group of people to exalt themselves to such a position, well the scriptures tell us what happens to those that Exalt THEMSELVES. 

This bit is so funny :-

Quote " Dates are of little concern to anyone who intends their dedication to God to be forever. "

So, in that case, the Bible Students and Watchtower writers / GB / JW Org et al, are not intending to dedicate themselves to God forever. Because they have always guessed at dates, told lies about dates, destroyed peoples lives with dates, and made a mockery of God with their guessing about dates. It has always been GOING BEYOND THE THINGS WRITTEN. 

12 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I think you are both living in a fantasy world where you get encouragement  from others.

Whatever happened to "With Godly devotion, self sufficiency"?

You think the Holy Spirit only flows with those who think vegetarian thoughts, and through encouraging people?

Gimme a break!

 

I don't even think the Holy Spirit flows.

Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

This is true and any one with a sensible thinking mind and a spiritual thinking heart will know what lies and misuse of scripture the GB / JW Org and Bible Students / Watchtower society et al, have used to misguide people over the many years. 

And anyone that investigates the JW Org to find out its 'rules' will see that the GB / JW Org live by and enforce rules made by men, not by God. 

The scripture you quoted 

John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 

If only the GB and its Org would live by that scripture, then it would all be so different to what it is now.  Even the GB's lawyers tell lies in court. Elders tell lies to cover up sins of elders and others.  And it seems that the GB give permission for all this. They call it 'spiritual warfare'. 

This bit is so funny too :-

Quote : "The Catholic Church withheld the Bible and the precious truth Jesus leads people to "

OK, JWs are allowed to have Bibles and are encouraged to read them, BUT, JWs are then told to believe only the things that the GB teach. So you can read you Bible but don't you dare to form your own conclusions about any scriptures. For if your idea conflicts with GB teachings you are in big trouble, well if you just happen to mention it to anyone else that is. 

And this :- 

Quote "The clergy elevate themselves over the common parishioners as the Jewish priesthood did, "

Well well, the GB elevate themselves above the Anointed as well as the earthly class. 

Please remember there was a time when ALL ANOINTED HERE ON EARTH WERE CLASSED AS THE 'FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASS'. 

BUT now the GB say ONLY THEY, THOSE 8 MEN, are the F&DS. Now that is definitely exalting themselves..  And we know what the scripture says about those that exalt themselves don't we ? 

Another quote :-

Exodus 20: You must not have any other gods besides me. 4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

Watchtower says " Only baptised Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved".  Giving salvation to an Organisation is false worship, idol worship in fact. 

I think there are even different types of JWs. Some are quite happy to accept anything the GB / Writing dept' say/write, others are deeper thinking but say little, yet others are deep thinking and talk about their thoughts. Back in my days of doing field service I would go back to friend's house for coffee and biscuits afterwards and we would discuss spiritual matters and congregation matters. There were many things that we were not happy with, within the JW Org, but he chose to stay with it all and I chose to stop attending meetings. 

I think the GB / writing dept / JW Org can be described as not serving God properly. They admit to not being inspired, and it can be seen that their written words are not even guided by God or Christ. So JW Org is no better than the Catholic church in many ways. After all, some on here often compare JW Org with other religions, saying that they all suffer the same problems. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Very true!  I like to learn new things...... from JW and non-JW. 

So do I, but I'm not learning anything encouraging on here lately.  It's like an old record player playing the same old sounds. There are some funny bits however which give me a laugh. 

Quote 'So if you had previously been a brother and your lifestyle becomes wicked then we would also stop associating with you.'

You are almost funny @Arauna, but actually your comments are quite sad. 

You deliberately avoid answering a question when you know that the GB and its Org are wrong. 

Has Jesus Christ given you authority to judge ? I think not. Especially when you don't know people personally. In my opinion, many 'brothers and sisters' are leaving the JW Org of their own free will. Some on here have said how easy it is to leave the Org, and I think many people are doing just that for many reasons. So then they are no longer 'brothers or sisters', therefore they are not calling themselves a brother. 

The scripture you misuse applies to a person that IS a brother or sisters, but sins against God, and it was applied to the Anointed when written. As you may know, my feelings are that the scriptures apply to the true Anointed much more than to the 'other sheep'. 

As Jesus said 'I have other sheep that are not of this fold', therefore he was talking to the Anointed. 

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

1 cor 5: 5  you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough

11. But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.  12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside,   while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

This is just in one chapter...... 

But verse 11 says 'with anyone called a brother'  'who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner,'

So tell me, if a person leaves the JW Org of their own choice, and if they do not do the things mentioned above, then what ?  They are no longer 'calling themselves a brother', and, they could well be leading a clean life. But they are still shunned.

And once again, you are using the Anointed as an example. 

Jesus himself ate with Tax Collectors and sinners. He entered their homes, he cured them, he conversed with them regularly.  But JWs are taught not to talk to Ex JWs, even though JWs have no idea why the other person is an Ex JW. 

35 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Not all anointed were elders in first century. So your argument backfires.  

I never said they were. Oh dear.  

Quote "If a person stops unacceptable sins then yes- he is immediately accepted back."

BUT, it is not sin against God or Christ that your Elders worry about, it is 'sin' against the JW Org. 

And the elders are not even capable of judging that, as it has been proved by the CSA problems where Elders and others have been allowed back in only to do it all over again. 

37 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I am not ashamed of that my dear. I have learnt nothing from you which has given me reason to doubt the JWs.  

Not from me maybe, but probably from others here. 

Quote @TrueTomHarley  "Yes, of course. The fellow in Corinth submitted to congregation discipline as well: "

The problem with your comment Mr Harley is the simple fact that you are using the ANOINTED of the 1st Century to make a point about the modern day Elders that are not anointed or inspired. 

So basically no comparison what so ever.  It just shows how you worship your elders and your JW Org.