But if GB / Writing department only wrote TRUTH that they were 100% certain of and could prove, then the Watchtower mags would be empty, and there would be no 'talk outlines' to use. However, why is it not possible to just have meetings that give praise to God through Christ, without needing to give false information through a magazine ? And why do people need to be told, using a 'Work Book', what to preach ? Surely if they are qualified to preach they would know in their hearts what to preach.  It all just shows that the congregants are just puppets for the GB and it's Org. 

Of course it also shows that I'm not qualified to preach to others  or I would be doing so. Unfortunately, having got rid of a fake foundation, I haven't yet built a new foundation. But i still think that having an empty cup is better than having a cup of poison. So I've thrown the poison away, washed out the cup (my heart and my mind), and now I'm ready to receive truth. But where that truth will come from i do not know. 

Quote " he submitted to congregation discipline "

I think that says enough. Shame he didn't think more of submitting to God's authority through 
Jesus Christ. No he submitted to the GB's Org. 

Does anyone actually pay money for web space for this forum ? Because the last 4 or 5 pages on this topic have been total rubbish.   I've noted only 3 sensible comments, 2 from @Srecko Sostar and 1 from @Anna . 

I do love @Anna 's comment comparing the GB / W/t / JW Org to a fortuneteller.  And we know where fortunetellers get their info from don't we  , and it isn't from God or Christ. 

As for this :-

I haven't been on here for 4 days and there are  23 comments that it seems I've 'missed', but reading a few here it is the same old same old. 

My Harley continues to hide behind that wall of shooting down other religions, to hide the faults of JW Org. 

Just because a person, such as myself knows that (quote) "those teachings referred to—trinity, immortal soul, kingdom is in your heart, all good people go to heaven, etc. ?" are lies / false teachings. It does NOT follow that GB / JW Org teaching are correct or true. It's a bit like saying, just because my car isn't yellow, it must be red. No, there are other choices of colours. So it is with beliefs and faiths, there are other choices. However there can only be one TRUTH.  But it does not have to be GB / JW Org's version on truth. 

I see @Arauna is back to her OCD accusations again too. And she directs people to the Insight Book, which of course is JW Org beliefs / teachings. 

I'm not for one moment saying that I agree with @Witness completely. However I do see some good reasoning in her comments. 

The F&DS was once taught to be the complete number of the remnant here on this Earth, by JW Org. Now the GB or others that give themselves 'authority', teach that the F&DS is only those 8 men of the GB. However it seems that those 8 men do not do the writing of the Watchtower mags, so are not the ones actually 'feeding' the 'sheep'. Add to this that NONE of them are inspired by God or by Christ. So they are all just guessing what scriptures mean and still guessing when the Judgement time will be. Yet, millions of brain dead 'sheep' keep following and serving this GB and it's Org. 

I do wonder if there is any F&DS yet. After all it is not the place of humans to decide, or to give that tittle to anyone. It is the place of the Master to decide. 

Someone bought me a big chrome and red NO BLOOD square metal 'block' that is supposed to be a key ring. It looks like an un-lucky charm. It actually has the picture of a bag of blood with the line across it. It's horrid and i would never use it. I cannot imagine getting in one of my cars with that hanging on the keys. Yuk. 

Mr Harley is a story teller, sorry, writer. So it is the nature of the beast to use a thousand words to say, well basically, nothing.  He seems a bit hurt here. A bit angry, but still says, basically nothing. There is nothing to answer, he is just having a writer's rant. 

Mr Harley says " As already stated, if he was so obsessed about leaving a positive note on the end, he would not have supplied his negative note at the beginning. " 

Oh dear, well in my opinion the information wasn't negative to start with. It was just truth about a situation. As he had lived through that actual situation then i presume he has the correct details. However, to JWs such as Mr Harley the information was negative, as I would have expect from Mr Harley.  So i said that he had put a positive ending to it to please other JWs now and to give them hope that these things might not happen in the future.

People such as Mr Harley, i would think, would rather keep that sort of information hidden forever. Hence Mr Harley tries to bring the focus around by criticising me, to keep the focus from that important information. Nice try Mr Harley, but fail.  

44 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course! That is why I know that Trump is a slaveholder. Because George Washington was. Historians just try to top it off with a positive note on the end. They don’t fool me. Those abused slaves may not have been revealed, but I know that they’re there.

Think hard about THAT, Mr 4Jah2Me. You dope—if JWI was so concerned about “a positive note at the end,” he wouldn’t have given his negative note in the first place!

I think JWI was trying to give hope to the present day sheep.  

Quote "No matter who we associated with, we would have to watch out for ourselves, and pay attention to our teaching, too." 

It's easier to pay attention to ourselves than it is, it seems, to pay attention to our teachings.

Where do 'our teachings' come from ?  If we can get direct instruction from God via the Bible and Holy Spirit, that would be great. The only one problem is, getting a true translation of God's word. Now if God is not inspiring anyone to translate His word properly, there lies the pit into which we can fall. And if the 'religion' we choose, chooses to misrepresent God's word, then it creates more problems. 

Quote "we will be attracted to association with groups of Christians or wannabe Christians who try very hard to maintain a brotherhood that is marked by love for one another, "

The 'boots on the ground' congregants can be easily swayed to love or to shun. They do not even need to be given a reason, they accept being given an 'order'.  You yourself have given an example of this. They can be very quick to jump to conclusions too. If a person is 'no longer a JW' the rest of the congregation will presume that the person was dis/fed for committing sin/s. I also found that if i enquired about someone that no longer attended meetings, I was met with a silence. If I suggested visiting someone that had not be seen in the hall for a long time, I was discouraged. Even the ministry here in southern England, i found that congregants were not even keen to go out. So, i haven't seen this love you talk of. But unfortunately I have seen the shunning of people, and the looking down on people when they re-enter the hall. 

The teachings on the Trinity and Hell etc, are from God's word, not from the Soc / W/t / GB / JW Org. I see no reason to pat the Org on the back for believing what God tells us in His written word. 

Unfortunately @JW Insider you round off that paragraph with the sort of rubbish that Mr Harley writes. 

There is a massive difference between teaching lies, and,  deciding how many windows to have in a hall. I do find that you and others, in one way seem to agree with my comments, but you seem to need to stay in the JW Org because it is your life. I know my comments are blunt / direct. But Jesus was so when speaking to those that pretended to serve God properly. Have a good evening. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

31 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I would not call it “dumb” if I were you.

The four windows reminds us of the four angels on the four corners of the earth holding tight the four winds of the earth. The carpet covering the dirt of the floor reminds up of the love that is to cover the sins of others. The blue reminds us of heaven where those 4 angels hang out on a nice day.

”You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping on obeying the truth?”

 

Um, Idol worship me thinks  

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How it really WAS.

Or to be more specific, how it really, on occasion, was.

You have a way of zeroing in on just a single sentence without regard for ones just before and after. Did you overlook this one?

 11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This was around 1978, when most elders had little experience....and I certainly do not think this would happen again in any congregations I know about.

 

•  

JW Insider, is a JW now. Think hard Mr Harley. If you were giving such information would you not  try to top it off with a positive note on the end ?  JW Insider gave FACTS, then gave his opinion. I believe his FACTS, I will take note of his opinion. 

I have known enough Elders in enough UK congregations to form my own opinion of their 'experience' or capabilities. The life time of an Elder isn't that long you know. They seem to become Elders at around 30 years old and die at around 70, but they loose their marbles at around 55 / 60. Then it's new ones that have to learn it all.  

Oh and did you take note of Mr Rook's comments too ? Or did you overlook that one ?   

• @JW Insider Thank you once again. 

I'm laughing again but not at you, just at situations, such as, " Other translations get the sense of the Greek a little better like this: "   is not coming with signs to be observed; (Luke 17:20). Isn't that just so much easier to understand...  Why didn't the NWT just say that ? 

OK, moving on, Matt 24 v 11 & 12 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.  

Now, an important question which I will couple up to what we've already spoken about. 

Dos this scripture relate to inside the JW Org ? (I think the translation used to say 'cool off' but now says 'grow cold').  

My thinking here is that if the GB / JW Org are not getting things quite right, and if we need to keep on the watch about ourselves, then do we truly need to be a JW ?  Is there any scripture that relates to saying, we must be one of Jehovah's Witnesses to gain either spiritual blessings and/or salvation ? 

I'll repeat one comment from you from above.

"Most Witnesses have found no outlet to safely discuss these conflicts and contradictions between the Bible statements and the Watchtower doctrines. "

Quote below from JW Org website.  Matt 24 v 10 

Then, too, many will be stumbled ...... 

Matthew 24:10

My point relates to your comment where you say  "We don't watch for signs. We watch out for ourselves, we watch out for false teachings, ... " 

@JW Insider  Sorry but I'm laughing. You lost me half way through. But i do wonder how much time was spent looking at dates / years. And I'm still lost as to whether the year 1914 should have any serious meaning to a true Christian. 

I'm also confused as to what one should be 'on the watch for' if all the 'happenings' around the earth mean nothing anyway. 

Quote "This is one of the problems with 1914 playing a prominent role in prophecy. The very role it most likely plays, in my opinion, is that it became a primary instance of proving Jesus right. He said not to be fooled by wars into thinking that the parousia was imminent. I believe that this prophecy has come true, not just in 1914, but in many wars over the past hundreds of years. People hear about wars, earthquakes, pestilence, famine, persecution, imprisonments, etc., and are easily misled into thinking they are seeing a sign of the parousia. "

So what does one look for when keeping 'on the watch' ? 

One important point i did take from your comment was :-

 "Most Witnesses have found no outlet to safely discuss these conflicts and contradictions between the Bible statements and the Watchtower doctrines. "

This is of very serious concern. 

Thank you all for your replies.  It is most strange to see the contrast though. 

Quote @TrueTomHarley "There is some piece of information not supplied. What it is I have no idea. But one would not be disfellowshipped for leaving one’s husband, whether he was violent or not."

Quote @JW Insider "Basically, she was disfellowshipped for defying the counsel of the elders, who were "only trying to avoid bringing reproach on the congregation." (To her they accused her of "bringing reproach on the marriage bed.") The circuit overseer agreed with them, and she remained df'd for a while."

Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. " I am a Barbarian, and my record is better than theirs for understanding what scriptures really mean, as their understanding is policy and agenda driven, and they can enforce under penalty of disfellowshipping any crazy nonsense a normal person would immediately see as nonsense."   (I have put as bold to highlight the point).

So what we have here is, one JW saying how it should be, 'by the JW rule book'. And two JWs saying how it really is. Boots on the ground / Real life happenings. 

There is a man who uses the name @Space Merchant that often talks of how the JW Org is 'managed'. He tends to think that the JW Org operates 'by the book'. Whether that be by God's book or by their own JW handbook. 

But what are we seeing here ? We know that God and His son Jesus Christ are full of love and mercy, and they want the best for as many humans as possible, as long as those humans obey God's rules and show love to God and to neighbour. 

So where is this 'force for evil' coming from ? Is it the GB making the rules that are wrong ?  Is it the Elders in the congregations that are wrong ? Is it the Circuit Overseers that are wrong ? 

The point is, there is no love or mercy for the victims there.  There is only this idea of 'Cleaning the outside of the dish, but leaving the inside dirty'. The idea of protecting the name of JW Org. It in no way protects God's name, because God does not need His name protected. God cannot be made 'unclean' because He is perfect and righteous. 

However there is a danger to face. IF people inside and/or outside JW Org, believe Mr Harley's thinking, then the blame will always be put on the Victims. The Elders and Ministerial Servants will always get away with committing sins against God and Christ, and causing suffering to many people in many ways. 

@Srecko Sostar I like your suggestion. i think it would be in line with 'caring for widows and orphans'. But as you say it may encourage 'misuse'. 

(Sorry for big writing, it happened after third quote. But it did change back to smaller writing again, on it's own  )

https://www.therockymountaingoat.com/2019/12/new-shelter-for-women-children-in-valemount/

New shelter for women, children in Valemount

It marked almost 20 years to the day that she fled her husband with a year and a half old child, pregnant with a second child. For leaving, she was excommunicated from her Jehovah Witness church and no longer allowed contact with her family.

“I was not only on my own with two babies, but I had no family support,” she said. “If it wasn’t for community, I would have been lost.”

Thoughts on this please.

I have read that women have been told to return to their husbands even if the husbands are violent. Does anyone have any personal experience of this happening to ones close to them ? 

Or it could just mean that you follow like sheep, but following a false shepherd. 

11 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

A board of directors comprising of 144,000 would be interesting to see.

Most of those 144,000 are dead now.  But a board of directors of a couple of thousand from all around the Earth connecting by internet would make sense. 

15 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

It would be interesting to see some wearing one of those hats while also wearing a cross necklace.

Maybe there can be a pin that say's....jw.org, I'm disfellowshipped

Yes it would be a good one to wear into a KH where you are not known, so that no one would speak to you. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New comment :- 

@TrueTomHarley I think you have to stretch it to say the kid is “big business.”

I was referring more to @Arauna 's comment about all the other merch' 

Check this one out. 

https://www.bennettcards.co.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy67Gm_a_5gIVTbDtCh33KQ1qEAAYASAAEgLzgvD_BwE

@JW Insider thank you again. But i will probably need to re-read that six times to understands it all. 

It would seem to me right now that the Watchtower writers were making it more difficult in the past for anyone to understand the Truth of God's word. Other religions were always criticized for their teachings being wrong, but it would seem here that the Soc / Org / W/t  should have known better. 

It looks to me as if, from the very beginning of the Bible Students right through to the JW Org now, they have had to pretend that things were 'happening' right then and there.  It's as if they have to maintain some excitement by hyping up everything.  

I'm still very confused by many spiritual things, but it does not seem that the GB /W/t / JW Org, can be of much help to me if they cannot even get it right themselves. I am sincere in my hope that God will soon inspire the true Anointed to lead God's people, whomever they may be, in the right direction. And I am even more sure in my heart now that Judgement time will be quite a long way off yet. There does not seem to be one humble organisation that is getting it right with scripture or service to God. The preaching work would of course only be good if what was preached was faithful and true.  

@JW Insider Thank you once again.

In my 60's English I would say ' That is heavy vibes man'   Meaning deep thinking.

But, let's go back to this :-

Revelation 6:9-11. ...... 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

So, ' until the number was filled' would be in our time now. And even if one of the Anointed now should 'turn bad' and have to be replaced, then it could even be in the future. (As I suspect there will be another 'ten years' before Judgement time). 

So, are the Apostles / disciples to 'rest a little while longer' even now ? In fact right up until the last of the Anointed has proven faithful. And if so is the Watchtower / GB / Org, going against the things written by suggesting that the Apostles have already been resurrected in the spirit form and are now in heaven with Christ ? 

I suppose I'm asking you here to talk in opposition to the GB etc, but I'm not looking to find fault at this time, I'm looking for better understanding of scripture. 

Yes reminds me of a quote from a film   'The money's in the merchandise' .

It's quite funny to see people making money from the JW org. Just as @Arauna has mentioned above.

It's all becoming big business  

18 hours ago, Arauna said:

We do hate sexual abuse but you are so totally critical that you do not recognize any efforts JWs have done (when there were no laws in place) to do something about this..... being totally unreasonable. You also do not have the capacity to put yourself in another organizations shoes.  .... to look at an issue from BOTH sides......nor reasonable but only one sided. Hence my contention that you have joined the haters....... no constructive criticism but totally destructive. .... 

So efforts by the GB and it's Org.

In Australia it seems they handed over the documents / database of those accused of Child Sexual Abuse. The results are known earth wide via the internet. Their documentation seems to have gone back 50 years or more. 

In the UK they refused to hand over the information until it went to court then it seems London HQ did hand over the documents / database. The Charity Commission carried out it's investigation and found problems, but the IICSA will be carrying out a further investigation.  There was talk by the Charity Commission of stopping the charitable status of JW Org I think. 

In the USA it seems they, the GB and their lawyers, are still refusing to hand over the 20 + year data base containing the names of suspected paedophiles.. Victims are still having to go through court battles to try to get justice but the GB and their lawyers are not helping in any way.  It seems strange to me that in Australia they had information going back over 50 years, but in USA it only goes back around 20 years. I can't believe this is correct but i haven't yet dug deeper..

In Canada similar problems. In the Netherlands too. 

Even in Spain in October 2018 Abusos JW sent a letter to their Minister of the Interior to asked them to investigate the JW Org for CSA. 

That info is just to show you @Arauna that hundreds of people have been victims of Child Sexual Abuse within the JW Org. The Org has always pretended to be family friendly and to be a SAFE hiding place from the 'storm' of the outside world. BUT the GB / Org has known for many many years that they have paedophile problems within. However it has been kept secret. The Elders have not been allowed to tell the congregations as a whole, that there is a paedophile in the congregation, and Elders have not been allowed to name the paedophile. So in short, it was kept secret. 

Constructive criticism :-  The GB should recognise that they are not 'fit for purpose' and should step down. The true Anointed should be allowed to run the JW Org. If the GB stepped down then God may, by His Holy Spirit, guide the true Anointed to run the JW Org properly. NO, I don't know exactly how it would take place, but then i don't know how God opened up the Red Sea either.....  All information about suspected paedophiles should be handed over to the police / authorities in all countries. All victims should be paid a small amount. I don't think anyone should be paid 'millions' but i do think the Watchtower / JW Org is rich enough to survive paying out to those genuine victims of abuse... A new 'rule book' needs to be written which should be available to all congregants not just to Elders....  It would of course take humility for the GB to step down but that humility might just give God the signal he is waiting for, so that He can lovingly give His Holy Spirit to those that really deserve it. Of course it might need more that just the GB to step down, it might need the writing department to change as well............ 

It is either that or God will need to form a new organisation using the true Anointed. But even that would be constructive in God's eyes.  JWs should stop thinking about what they want and should think about what is righteous in God's eyes.

@JW Insider  Thank you for your in depth reply.

I quote  "No I don't believe 1914 is the time of the establishment of the heavenly kingdom, because the Bible says that it was established in the first century.... " 

Can you please help me further. 

What is the teaching / belief of the Watchtower / JW Org in that respect. Do they believe / teach that the Heavenly Kingdom was set up in 1914 ?

And, if the Kingdom was not set up in 1914, but was established in the first century, then presumably Jesus was reigning as King in heaven at that time. If so, were the apostles / disciples resurrected to heaven immediately on their dying as humans ?  

This would all be new thoughts to me. I don't tend to dig deep enough.  And once again knowing who to believe is difficult. 

And with all the silliness Mr Harley still plugs his books at the end of it. Well done Mr H. Have a good day.

Yes a bit of light hearted humour is good. Anyway you should expect abuse, you're a writer. 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ok, ok, I get it. 

You totally misuse the hate of Child Sexual Abuse within the JW Org, to pretend it is religious persecution.  And this is a JW website, hence i don't wish to talk about Catholics, Muslims et al. 

And once again you compare the GB and the Org to the wicked world outside. Why ? We all know and we all expect, Satan's wicked world to do wicked things. BUT you pretend that the JW Org is so clean and a safe place to be in. Some of us are proving you wrong. 

Mr Harley is so stupid. Does he not realise that it WAS ALREADY CAKE, but they broke the CAKE apart.  They are splitting blood' in pieces, not building blood from pieces.