Patiently waiting for Truth

@JW Insider  Most of this is beyond me but I've noticed that you are working from the year 1914 (the setting up of the Heavenly Kingdom), and I had thought that 1914 itself was in question on here somewhere ?  Is the date 1914 firmly established as TRUTH in your eyes, or is it the case that 'if you say it enough, people will believe it'. 

@TrueTomHarley Does the JW Org really have 'enemies' now ? I mean real opposition ? Obviously on the door to door work you expect to encounter some form of opposition against the beliefs and teachings of the GB and the Org. But are you suggesting there are groups of people deliberately causing problems for the Org right now ?  That would be religious persecution. 

Of course the CSA accusations earthwide give some people real reasons to turn against the JW Org, but that is not opposition to the beliefs or teachings, it is opposition to Child Sexual Abuse. That is NOT religious persecution. It is genuine hate of child abuse. 

@b4ucuhear  I think you and @TrueTomHarley must be twins. You have the same outlook concerning the JW Org.

Next thing you will say is "It's the best game in town " . I wonder, do you write books too ?

And this expression gets boring too  "If you feel your religion is better, .." 

My religion, if you need to pigeon hole me. is Christian. I do not belong to a specific 'church' of men. 

If i read you right here (quote)  "what has sometimes been viewed as "new light" has not proven true at all", you are agreeing with me. And you continue to agree with me on how wrong it is to 'blindly follow' the GB and the Org.  But of course, as you have been hurt by my comments, you have to try to shoot me down in flames at the end of yours.   I don't mind. Its human nature to respond when you get hurt. 

But I am finding that most JWs on here are seeing the truth in my comments. I can tell by the way they cut me down. 

And here is my positive input, if you haven't noticed it before :-

I feel that Almighty God, through Jesus Christ, will do one of two things. God will either clean up the JW Org and restore the true Remnant / Anointed to run that Org, or, God will use the true Remnant / Anointed to start a new way of serving God properly. Either way God will use His Holy Spirit to properly guide those He chooses to take the lead. Therefore those taking the lead will be inspired of God. And obviously they will be given a proper understanding of the scriptures they need to instruct those of the earthly class. I feel that the scripture which talks about 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew', will come true, as those of the Earthly Class 'cling' to the 'Jew' that is the remnant of the Anointed here on earth.  However for all this to happen I feel there needs to be another few years before the Judgement time. I've said 10 years, but in my heart i know of course that God could do it all in ten days, if He so wished.... So there is my positive input, and i haven't needed to be part of a 'church' to work that out. 

Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. I don't go to parties, I'm no part of this world  .

My wife and I are happy in each others company and we don't tend to trust other people. That includes JWs. I spend a lot of time walking the beach or in the countryside on my own. I feel closer to God amongst His creation rather than being amongst material things. 

Besides which JW parties here in England tend to involve 'dressing up', which is not my thing  

  Quote @Arauna  " Just as humans misuse blood without the respect for the life it represents. "

Which humans misuse blood ? 

If the blood represents life, then do you think it is ok for humans to take it out of the human body and then mess with it, by breaking it down into 'sub-sections' / fractions, just to please other humans ? 

 On 12/12/2019 at 9:12 PM, 4Jah2me said:

No i don't expect humans to be perfect or to act perfectly.

Quote @TrueTomHarley  reply " What you expect is Santa Claus "

How can anyone take this man seriously. No wonder he writes book for a living  He's a story teller. 

On 12/15/2019 at 2:45 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Org becomes more worldly every day. 

Says the exceedingly worldly guy...... 

So @Arauna explain how I'm an 'exceedingly worldly guy.'  For if you knew me at all you would know how wrong that statement is. 

Actually I thought it was you that had travelled the world and done everything. Whereas I have been accused, on here, of just sitting at this computer continuously. 

Just a little note, I didn't vote in the general election, as I'm no part of this world, an don't put my trust in 'earthling man'. We also do not celebrate the upcoming pagan festival, not do we celebrate birthdays. Nor do I go to a 'pub' as I don't drink alcohol, and I don't smoke and don't 'do drugs'.  So I'm not exactly what I would call worldly. 

Oh yes and the JW Org are involved in the PROPERTY MARKET, selling multiple properties. Not just one house. 

Quote  @TrueTomHarley 

From the Revelation Climax book, published in 1988:

“It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: “Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8)”

If I remember correctly that was written on a picture page and would easily have been overlooked as it was not part of a paragraph that would have been read in the study. 

It was of course a 'cop out' due to the fact that they had been so wrong on so many other occasions. 

I believe this book was studied three times so as to indoctrinate congregants, even though they were not sure it was true.  If it wasn't so serious it would be funny, BUT it was playing with people's lives. 

I was right in my thinking that there was nothing worth viewing on here right now  

But you all remind me so much of the GB and its writing dept. 

You and they have nothing important or even sensible to say, BUT you have to write something. Its as if you have this desperate need to fill up space.  Well of course the GB / Writing dept DO have to fill up space in the magazines each month. 

Quote @b4ucuhear " For example, we realized that the “superior authorities” mentioned in Romans 13:1 are, not Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, but the political rulers "

BUT the original teaching by the Bible Students was that the 'superior authorities' was the political rulers. It was fully understood in the first place. So, why was false reasoning used to give false teaching ? Obviously no Holy Spirit involved there. So you cannot say that it was new light or better understanding when it was originally known anyway 

@Srecko Sostar I don't know, but it made me laugh anyway. 

If some of the 'brothers' are deeply involved in the property business, and other brothers are deeply involved in the legal / lawyer business (court cases), then it seems the JW Org becomes more worldly every day. 

I cannot believe this is what God or Jesus Christ wants from 'chosen ones'. 

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

The bible itself says that we must not have fellowship with those who are brazen in conduct.  There is no "threat".  When a person is a spiritual threat to other brothers and sisters and does not stop brazen conduct......then only, after they have been requested many times to stop unacceptable behaviour,  are they disfellowshipped.  These are the ones who usually then defame JWs and hide the truth-  that they were disfellowshipped because of a Christian conduct,  be it repetitive lying, stealing, fornication etc...... a practice of some und of unacceptable behaviour.

Many realize the need to change and come back into the fold - others become more brazen..... and defame JWs.

 

I see you did not like this comment. ...... it says a lot about you.  People like to blame "others" .... never themselves.... Adam blamed eve.... lol.

I see you as a funny spiritually blind person, so your comments do not bother me at all.  

Adam blamed Eve did he? Well you seem to blame the Victims of Abuse and wrongful D/fed. 

When Almighty God, working through Christ, decides to take action against the Watchtower / JW Org, then you and many others will get the biggest shock of your lives.  I think though that God may be helping the Victims of Child Sexual Abuse within the JW Org, so God may have started His cleansing process. Only time will tell if God wishes to use the Org or to replace it.  Meanwhile you can keep worshipping the GB and your Elders. 

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

My daughter bought a small home in UK in a safe area. One bathroom, 3 bedrooms - and it costs over over half million pounds.   So a 1 million pound house (especially in London must be the size of a dingy) and  is definitely not the epitome of luxury -  which impression you are trying to create.

To sell a house that people have been using is good. They can use this money to assist brothers in the rest of the world. I guess they are selling because it is no longer needed..... but if they kept it you would also complain.  One cannot ever please some people.....

They are not selling ONE house, they are running a Property business 

https://ibsaproperty.com/

IBSA London Properties is part of IBSA (International Bible Students Association) a registered charity acting on behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Britain and Ireland. For more information about Jehovah’s Witnesses please follow this link.

On 12/9/2019 at 7:44 PM, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

 

I think even when we are baptized, the watchtower elders or CO has no power over anyone, the power they think they have is because we give them that power, is not like we have signed a contract or anything. 

I think you are wrong. The GB and or others at the top, make rules that are not from scripture. The Elders enforce those rules blindly. In Jesus time the religious leaders did the same thing. 'Putting heavy loads on the shoulders of others, which they would not even use a finger to help'.

And actually the baptism questions / at baptism, a person agrees to become 'One of Jehovah's Witnesses', so it is much like a contract. 

Also the Elders use the threat of disfellowshipping someone, which then means the person will be shunned by maybe 100 or more people / the whole congregation. And it could also mean the loss of business because JWs won't do business with D'fed ones. 

Whereas 'interested ones' that go to meetings and do ministry, are not ruled over by the Elders. True that elders could stop an unbaptised one from doing ministry. but that is all they can do.  An Elder does not have the authority to tell an unbaptised person not to talk to a D'fed person. 

On 12/9/2019 at 7:55 PM, Arauna said:

If you drive a car on the road and you follow the road rules..... you do not encounter a problem and you do not feel as though you are under law....  BUT break the rules such as going over a solid white line ..... one stands a chance of killing your own family or another in an oncoming car..... or the police may catch you....   So you are only under law when you break the law. ..... When you keep/observe the law you are safe and free.....   So there is only police control when you break the law or the law of disaster steps in because of risk behaviour..... 

So the org has no control.... your own behaviour puts you at risk....... but irresponsible people with risk behaviour see it as encroachment on their freedom.

I think that on some occasions the 'law of the land' shows more justice and mercy than the JW org. 

And the rules of the GB /JW Org go beyond the things written in the scriptures. The GB themselves know this and have had to tell their lawyers and elders to lie in courts because of it. 

12 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Anna says 10 years and she’s just being speculative, just putzing around, with the existing arrangements.

You say 10 years, I think in earnest, with a brand spanking new anointed from somewhere or other—everything new from the ground up.

You are both wrong. It is ten days. Be ready.

Well Mr Harley 'No one knows the day or the hour',  so why oh why have your Soc / GB / Writing Dept pretended so much to know so much ?  

And yes, I think it is years away yet, 10 years or more. There is so much to put right, or a new Org to build. 

But I never said a  " brand spanking new anointed ". Because there are members of the Anointed already available to do the job. It's just that they are not allowed to do it, because your GB pretend to be the F&DS. I won't take it any further than that for fear of being disfellowshipped from here. 

If Almighty God decides to use the JW Org then He will have the Org there ready and He will adjust it for His own purposes. So it won't have to be "everything new from the ground up".  It will be God, through Christ, putting people in their place, and making people show humility. Be ready for it Tom. 

Well here in the UK the JW Org are selling houses for over one million pounds each in London, and I didn't even look at how much the commercial properties were. So they are into big business it seems, whilst Jesus said He was no part of this world.  I'd love to know exactly who lives in those one million pound houses before they are sold, and is it JW volunteers that refurbish the houses. 

I don't bother to visit here so often as I'm too busy, but the last 4 or 5 pages here are heavy reading that's for sure.  But it seems that most of you JWs are saying, as some of us 'opposers' say anyway, that the Soc/Org/ GB et al, have got it all wrong. 

I've been saying to Mr Harley that there must be another ten years left, if not more... And I note that one or two of you have said that the GB and others always expect the 'end' to come within their lifetime. 

Selfishness of course. Many people 'serve God' and / or join JW Org just to survive the Judgement, so they want it in their lifetime. 

1914 ? The choosing it / using it as a pivotal date/time wasn't inspired, we know that much. 

But keep it up, it gives me more confidence in what I believe. 

Quote @Anna "This could still buy us another 10 years, and it could still be said that it was one generation." 

@TrueTomHarley Didn't I say the Judgement is another 10 years away ? 

Seems like Anna might agree with me  

@Srecko Sostar  Here in the UK we would say that you have 'opened up a can of worms'  with your words above.  You have opened the way to hundreds of questions. 

And although @Witness gives some very fine comments, she/he also opens the way to many questions. 

For God to fulfil his 'plans' I would think He would need some kind of 'united people' Earth wide. And hence He would need to guide those people by using/sending His Holy Spirit to them. 

But as the GB and presumably the Writing Dept et al, admit to not receiving God's Holy Spirit  then I presume God cannot be using them at this time.

No i don't expect humans to be perfect or to act perfectly.

But I do expect anyone chosen by God, to become leaders in God's chosen 'united people', to be inspired by God's Holy spirit so as to do their jobs properly.  

As you say Srecko, God works through His Holy Spirit. He has always done so in the past, why would He not do so now ?

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The old method of handling this was to use the expression "present truth." Many adventists including Seventh Day still use the expression. It's based on a mistranslation of 2 Peter 1:12 where the KJV said:

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

The tendency among 19th century Adventists was to see a "chronology" element or "time" element in the English expression that did not exist in the original Greek. Therefore, the idea was that: even when in the midst of learning or teaching falsehood, it was still "present truth" at the time, and what is now "present truth" could turn out to be false in the future, but it will always have been "present truth" because it's always the best we had at the time.

From the Greek, this is better translated as "the truth that is present in you" (American Standard and NWT). 

A similar rush to see a time element in the English translation was done by Barbour and Russell and others who had been associated with Adventists. Here's an example from Leviticus:

(Leviticus 26:28) 28 I will intensify my opposition to you, and I myself will have to chastise you seven times for your sins.

This was originally the primary source for Russell's 7 times = 2,520 years, and the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about his own insanity was only a secondary source. But we have since learned that Leviticus here didn't refer to chronological "times" but the sense was "7 times as much" as in "I will hit you twice as hard, or three times as hard, or seven times as hard." This was already in the context, but chronologists and numerologists rarely notice the context until they have already formed a time related doctrine.

(Leviticus 26:18-21) . . .“‘If even this does not make you listen to me, I will have to chastise you seven times as much for your sins. . . . 21 “‘But if you keep walking in opposition to me and refuse to listen to me, I will then have to strike you seven times as much, according to your sins.

Now that we have noticed this, we have been stuck with using Nebuchadnezzar as if his wicked Gentile kingdom somehow represented Christ's Messianic non-Gentile kingdom. (Another contradiction between 1914 and the Bible.)

We still tend to make a "chronology word" out of things having to do with time when we translate the Greek word for time as "appointed time" instead of what might better be translated as "opportune time."

Note that it's the exact same word "time" in these two verses:

(Ephesians 5:16) 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked.

(Luke 21:24) . . .and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

Neither the word opportune nor appointed is found in the Greek, only the word time. But the more typical meaning is "opportunity" as in:

• Will you find the opportunity to do this?
• Will you find the time to do this?

Not:

• Will you find the appointed day and hour to do this?

We have added a more specific chronological sense that usually isn't necessary in the Greek.
 

Quote "Neither the word opportune nor appointed is found in the Greek, only the word time. But the more typical meaning is "opportunity" as in: " 

Isn't this then ADDING to the scriptures ?  Just using the word time would surely have done the job.

And to use the phrase 'appointed times' is surely wrong as it suggests a pre-planned time / a set time. 

Isn't it a sin to add to the scriptures ?  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Separate comment.  Quote @JW Insider

Sounds like you disagree with what Brother Splane said when he admitted that over 100 teachings that had turned Bible parables and Bible historical narratives into specific prophecies were examples of going beyond the things written.

Quote "But if you think about it, almost every single past error where the Watchtower has made an interpretation that was later changed was also a matter of going beyond the things written. Whenever there was a changed teaching where the Watchtower had said "this is what it means" instead of "this is what it might mean" was a matter of going beyond the things written."

WOW ! This should be put up in lights outside every Kingdom Hall, for all Witnesses and members of the public to read. 

And that in itself is good enough reason for not being a JW, because the GB and it's Writing Dept GO BEYOND THE THINGS WRITTEN, and they admit to not being inspired.  

But, they say that one has to be a baptised JW to gain salvation. 

That is so funny when you consider it all. 

45 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer.

If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here. 

I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.”

Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.”

Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.

If only you would stop quoting outside sources, and just be more basic with your comments, then i may understand them .

Yes I understand 'if your throw out all the good, only the bad is left.  But the reverse is, if you only see the good, you are not being honest with yourself or others.  @Arauna is a case in point.  

@JW Insider Quote " The day's text is about the resurrection, and the commentary speaks of the importance of including this among our key doctrines, as if it might not have been "up there" with the rest. "

That seems rather strange to me. But then they are getting short of things to say. 

However, i would have thought every Christian, no matter what ever 'sect' or  pigeon hole you put them in, would definitely believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and put it up near the top of important beliefs. 

However making Bible Facts, doctrines, seems unfair to God and to the Bible itself. 

12 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Does anyone have solid proof of homosexual behavior by these people mentioned? I noticed years ago, the Librarian commented on this subject.

 

Dear Reader,

 

https://www.jw-archive.org/post/84800326628/why-were-leo-greenlees-and-ewart-chitty-forced-to

 

Brother Ewart Chitty resigned in 1979. The reason was never stated officially. There were only ALLEGATIONS of homosexuality that some still refer to. 

 

Brother Leo Greenlees resigned in 1984. Again, no official reason offered. The “gossip” ever since around the internet and elsewhere is that it was due to pedophilic practices. No actual reason was ever officially offered.

 

The reason for such allegations against them is that some point to the article in January 1, 1986 WT article (p. 13), which commented: “Shocking as it is, some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to homosexuality and child molesting.”

 

I don’t believe our main article on the Governing Body touched on these points because it is all based on speculation and conjecture."

 

It appears some wife swapping was omitted.

 

*** w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 Days Like “the Days of Noah” ***

 

 

¹² Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean!

 

 

It should be noted, the article above was NOT specifically speaking about the GB individuals mentioned, but the nearly 37,000 individuals that were disfellowshipped for whatever reason such as immoral behavior.

 

Therefore, it is as the Librarian mentioned, just speculation and conjecture if proof is not provided to such allegations.

 

1975-Ewart C. Chitty of London, England, who is secretary-treasurer of the International Bible Students Association. Leo K. Greenlees was already a GB member when Chitty was appointed to the body.

 

Simply relying on an “anonymous” blogger that presented no evidence but rather compiled ex-witness information (speculation) from apostate sites is not evidence.

 

Yes but everything was kept 'in house' back then. And still is probably. 

The American courts / authorities can't even get their hands on the 20 + year Child Sexual Abuse database which should have been handed over years ago. So who knows what's hidden in there. 

There are probably documents hidden away that go back 70 + years. Didn't Australia have info from 50 years ago that the ARC used ? I would think USA info would go back further. 

It would be wonderful to see the whole Watchtower / JW Org / GB opened up wide to the public, in the public interest. Then, and only then, could people make a sensible judgement as to if they want to be part of that Org. 

You may think I want the JW Org / Watchtower Soc' to crash, but in truth I don't. I just want it made clean. As @TrueTomHarley says (100 times a day) that some folks are only looking at the downside of the GB and it's Org. BUT Genuine people will be trying to find TRUTH within the muck, that's all. 

And @TrueTomHarley also said "She knows there is a downside. She knows it is a price well worth paying in view of the upside... "

To quote John Butler, (as Mr Harley is convinced that is who I am), Collateral Damage then.

The victims of Child Sexual Abuse, the victims of wrongful disfellowshipping, the victims of wrongful shunning. 

The Lies told by the Writing dept and the GB. The false teachings. The false predictions. 

One could also include the unnecessary deaths of people dying through lack of blood, but that one is still debatable as the true meaning of the scriptures on that are not exactly known. Hence the GB keep moving the goal posts. And i will believe Matthew 12 v 9 -12. where Jesus talks about saving lives. 

@Arauna only' knows it is a price well worth paying' because she isn't actually paying that price. 

@Anna  I don't think you answered the situation where by a person LEAVES the JW Org because they know about the disgusting things that go on in it, such as Child Sexual Abuse Earthwide. And they know about the false teachings which have been made so clear on this forum. And they do not want to teach lies to members of the public. 

What is your opinion then of such a person that leaves the JW Org of their own free will ? 

If they are to be treated as a 'tax collector' or a 'person of the nations' then shouldn't JWs talk to them ?

Jesus spoke to and ate meals with such ones. 

So how do the congregants know proper the 'rules' then

Quote @Anna  " The basics are in the Bible, for anyone to see "

But JWs have to obey the GB's / JW Org rules, so your comment doesn't help. 

Quote  @Arauna  " Probably the most superficial posting here on this forum because there is no concept of historical context.   Always placing old articles and using modern laws and attitudes to  defame Jws "

Historical concept :-   Acts 10 v 34 & 35. 

39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

No surprise because you have a negative opinion.... and I suspect a hate for all authority...in any shape or form

@Arauna  And you have a blanket belief in your GB which you worship and the JW Org which you serve . 

You are soooooooo blind to the real truth that you have to pretend to yourself that anything spoken  against the GB and its Org, is because of hate. You are not intelligent enough to comprehend real truth. 

You do not even reason with anyone.  In case you forget what you have written :- 

Quote  "What I do NOT understand is the logic of the men who hate JWs. "  

Then also quote :- 

"They try to prove that we are impure and allow homeosexuality (when we clearly do not) "

Um, maybe try adding this bit to another topic on this forum which speaks about past GB members being Homosexual.  

The GB NEED children to get baptised to try to keep them in the JW Org.  Once baptised the threats start to kick in. 

We know that lots of people are LEAVING the JW Org, so GB are trying to keep the numbers up. 

A person can still be a 'publisher' on the ministry whilst not baptised, so why would anyone want to push their children into doing something that they are not able to comprehend ?

Obvious answer, it's because the threats kick in when baptised. The Org has control over a baptised person. The 'rules' can only be pushed on someone that is baptised.  The Elders can be pushy about baptised ones doing more hours in the ministry. Pushy about the way a person dresses. Pushy about association with non believers. But the Elders have no say on what an unbaptised person does, even though they might try.