Patiently waiting for Truth

@JW Insider Quote " The day's text is about the resurrection, and the commentary speaks of the importance of including this among our key doctrines, as if it might not have been "up there" with the rest. " That seems rather strange to me. But then they are getting short of things to say. However, i would have thought every Christian, no matter what ever 'sect' or pigeon hole you put them in, would definitely believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and put it up near the top of important beliefs. However making Bible Facts, doctrines, seems unfair to God and to the Bible itself. doctrine a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group. It's as if the JW Org tries to 'own' such things. @TrueTomHarley quite often goes on about the things that the JW Org teaches. As if those things 'belonged to the JW Org'. Whereas a lot of the same beliefs are held by thousands of people, and they not all being of the same organisation. Quote " The Teaching about Christ's Kingdom - Of course that final one might be a nod to "1914" as a key teaching, but it is worded here in such a way that no one could dismiss Christ's Kingdom as a key teaching. " Now here we see a difference between Bible truth and JW doctrine. Christ's Kingdom is Bible truth. 1914 is JW Org doctrine. (This would bring us back to. Would a person be d/fed or 'watched' if they did not believe the 1914 doctrine?) Matthew 22 v 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? So if Jesus was to sit at Gods right hand, until God had put Jesus' enemies beneath Jesus' feet. Then Jesus could not have had the power to do it himself. Therefore surely Jesus was not ruling as King immediately ? As for 1914, we know that no one of the Bible Students or JW leaders, were or are inspired of Holy Spirit. So maybe 1914 is just another guess or misuse of scriptures. What is your view of the difference between 'Core doctrines' and Key teachings ? And you seem to keep swapping expressions from Core doctrines, to Core teachings, to Key teachings. Can you explain the difference please ?

Yes but everything was kept 'in house' back then. And still is probably. The American courts / authorities can't even get their hands on the 20 + year Child Sexual Abuse database which should have been handed over years ago. So who knows what's hidden in there. There are probably documents hidden away that go back 70 + years. Didn't Australia have info from 50 years ago that the ARC used ? I would think USA info would go back further. It would be wonderful to see the whole Watchtower / JW Org / GB opened up wide to the public, in the public interest. Then, and only then, could people make a sensible judgement as to if they want to be part of that Org. You may think I want the JW Org / Watchtower Soc' to crash, but in truth I don't. I just want it made clean. As @TrueTomHarley says (100 times a day) that some folks are only looking at the downside of the GB and it's Org. BUT Genuine people will be trying to find TRUTH within the muck, that's all. And @TrueTomHarley also said "She knows there is a downside. She knows it is a price well worth paying in view of the upside... " To quote John Butler, (as Mr Harley is convinced that is who I am), Collateral Damage then. The victims of Child Sexual Abuse, the victims of wrongful disfellowshipping, the victims of wrongful shunning. The Lies told by the Writing dept and the GB. The false teachings. The false predictions. One could also include the unnecessary deaths of people dying through lack of blood, but that one is still debatable as the true meaning of the scriptures on that are not exactly known. Hence the GB keep moving the goal posts. And i will believe Matthew 12 v 9 -12. where Jesus talks about saving lives. @Arauna only' knows it is a price well worth paying' because she isn't actually paying that price.

@Anna I don't think you answered the situation where by a person LEAVES the JW Org because they know about the disgusting things that go on in it, such as Child Sexual Abuse Earthwide. And they know about the false teachings which have been made so clear on this forum. And they do not want to teach lies to members of the public. What is your opinion then of such a person that leaves the JW Org of their own free will ? If they are to be treated as a 'tax collector' or a 'person of the nations' then shouldn't JWs talk to them ? Jesus spoke to and ate meals with such ones. Quote @Anna " The basics are in the Bible, for anyone to see " But JWs have to obey the GB's / JW Org rules, so your comment doesn't help.

Quote @Arauna " Probably the most superficial posting here on this forum because there is no concept of historical context. Always placing old articles and using modern laws and attitudes to defame Jws " Historical concept :- Acts 10 v 34 & 35. 34 At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. Add to this that :- Act 5 v 9 Berean Literal BibleBut Peter and the apostles answering said, "It is necessary to obey God rather than men. Now put those two together and you will get. If we are to serve GOD properly we must treat all people, of any colour, equally, because this is what God tells us to do. Even if it means disobeying the laws of men. ANYONE guided by Holy Spirit would have known what was the right and wrong of it all. Stop making excuses for the Bible Students and early Witnesses.

@Arauna And you have a blanket belief in your GB which you worship and the JW Org which you serve . You are soooooooo blind to the real truth that you have to pretend to yourself that anything spoken against the GB and its Org, is because of hate. You are not intelligent enough to comprehend real truth. You do not even reason with anyone. In case you forget what you have written :- Quote "What I do NOT understand is the logic of the men who hate JWs. " Then also quote :- "They try to prove that we are impure and allow homeosexuality (when we clearly do not) " Um, maybe try adding this bit to another topic on this forum which speaks about past GB members being Homosexual.

The GB NEED children to get baptised to try to keep them in the JW Org. Once baptised the threats start to kick in. We know that lots of people are LEAVING the JW Org, so GB are trying to keep the numbers up. A person can still be a 'publisher' on the ministry whilst not baptised, so why would anyone want to push their children into doing something that they are not able to comprehend ? Obvious answer, it's because the threats kick in when baptised. The Org has control over a baptised person. The 'rules' can only be pushed on someone that is baptised. The Elders can be pushy about baptised ones doing more hours in the ministry. Pushy about the way a person dresses. Pushy about association with non believers. But the Elders have no say on what an unbaptised person does, even though they might try.

@James Thomas Rook Jr. I believe this 'Rule Book' shifts the goal posts quite often, with updates on certain matters. Also as you say it is Elder's eyes only. So how do the congregants know proper the 'rules' then ? Surely each Elder could 'translate' the rules according to His own needs. And as you say 'Most JWs don't even know about that book. What does that show ? It shows that congregants are naive and blindly follow the words of the Elders. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Separate comment @Srecko Sostar John 10:16 Jesus said :- "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." So there are two folds it seems. A fold can be a hollow in the ground, or a group of people. I always thought a 'fold' was a fenced area in a field or farm yard. My point is that i think the Greek scriptures are for the Anointed to follow more closely. The Anointed are in one fold, the earthly class in a different fold. But are one flock because they follow the one shepherd, Jesus Christ. However, i think God and Christ demand much more from the Anointed because this is the testing ground of the Anointed, here and now. The earthly class will get a thousand years to grow back to perfection, and then a final test.

I find you very amusing Mr Rook. It seems that you feel you can say things against your GB and its Org, but others should not. Come on, Holy Spirit is not like drinking a casual cup of coffee. Holy Spirit is a gift from Almighty God through Jesus Christ. I would at least expect to see some kind of positive result from it. Since the great disappointment of 1975, the Org has lost momentum, lost congregants, lost direction, changed it's teachings, is now losing money in multiple court cases, has lost credibility as to being a 'clean' 'wholesome' Organisation. It is stumbling and bumbling along. Being led by 8 men who are totally lost. Blind leading the blind, and oh what a pit they have fallen into. The very fact that you expect nothing, and get nothing, shows there is NO Holy Spirit in JW Org. I'm off to my kitchen to get a casual cup of coffee

I tend to think on things as being the tip of an iceberg And to be boring, this brings us back to that Database they are withholding. Oh what wonderful information must be in that 20 + year Database.

Well if half the GB in the past were Homosexuals it's no wonder the Org wants to keep it quiet

Quote " So why are you spending your daily life on websites such as this singling out Jehovah's Witnesses? " BECAUSE THIS IS A JW WEBSITE and therefore I talk about JWs. As for spending my daily life on here, wrong. It's Saturday and i haven't been on here since, Wednesday I think it was. My life is far too busy to spend too much time on here, Hence when i log on I find between ten and twenty comments that I've missed. And when three or more JWs on here say that, so and so has a 'hateful agenda', then it certainly looks like they are being parrots, so I call it brainwashed. Quote " And while I agree that mindless unquestioning obedience to whatever is said by imperfect, uninspired men won't always reach God's standards " Wow, we can actually agree on this. Quote "That is why JW's are known for being honest, truthful, law-abiding, loving, loyal, peaceful... " NO, that is what is shown on the outside of the dish. But Jesus said first wash the inside of the dish so that it will be completely clean.... Right now the 'world' is seeing inside the dish of JW Org. The GB's lawyers are being seen to tell LIES in courts. The truth is out about Child Sexual Abuse Earthwide, and about victims being disfellowshipped to get them out of the congregations and to stop other congregants talking to them. What is being seen is the lack of love, mercy, justice, truth, honesty and law abiding behaviour. I do wonder, when JWs are standing by the 'carts' with the literature, do they think it is because people are not interested in God that people walk straight past ? Well maybe people know of all the wickedness inside the JW Org, so people do not want to get involved. That maybe why they walk straight past. Because the JW Org brings shame on Almighty God.

IF holy spirit reached anyone in the JW Org it would be a great surprise to me. IF holy spirit reached the congregants then would they carry on serving the GB and the Org ? IF holy spirit reached the congregants then would they still go into the 'ministry work' teaching the LIES to other people ? Would congregants take on Bible Studies and teach LIES of men from books, by not using the Bible properly ? Would congregants encourage families into the K H knowing that there may be a paedophile in there ? Well the congregants would know about the paedophile situation, if the congregants were blessed with holy spirit. No, there is no holy spirit in the JW Org. If ever there was, which I cannot now believe, it has vanished. Almighty God has turned the 'tap' off. And you, Mr Rook, will know this more than I. Because you see the faults and lies, the injustice and lack of love, the lack of mercy, the man made rules as a heavy burden (as you mentioned).

It would be nice to see any written 'rules' made by the GB or others in regard to shunning a person that has left the JW Org. Maybe JW congregants should be issued with a GB rule book of do's and don'ts. That way every one would know exactly what procedure is right when serving the GB and it's Org. My feeling is that in the first century, all those that became true Christians, serving God through Christ, were of the Anointed, heavenly calling. Therefore it was more important for them to be 'without spot from the world'. So stricter discipline would be more acceptable to those of the Anointed class. 'To whom more is given, more will be demanded'. Hence IMO, the scriptures are written for the Anointed, and then the Anointed should teach the earthly class. (The GB are not of the anointed. By their works you will know them). So then @Srecko Sostar the questions would be more complicated. Should stricter rules apply to the Anointed than to the earthly class ? The Anointed should be inspired of holy spirit and capable of more self control........ All those scriptures were written by Anointed ones for Anointed ones at that time.

@the Sower of Seed If the GB were inspired by God's holy Spirit. If the JW Org was also inspired of God's Holy spirit. Then the things you write would be correct. IF YOU took some time to read some of the topics on here you would find the TRUTH about your GB and It's Org. IF YOU took some time to research information online. such as court cases which can be verified, then you would find out the TRUTH about your GB and it's Org. If you looked into the 'turnover' within the JW Org I think you would find one of the biggest turnovers of all religions. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing how many congregants leave the JW Org of their own choice, how many children are disfellowshipped and how many adults are disfellowshipped. And then of those adults disfellowshipped, there is no way of knowing who was unfairly disfellowshipped. So your idea of "Jehovah's Witnesses experience the highest form of happiness," is very untrue. The JW congregants do the will of the GB and it's management of 'overseers' / Elders. The congregants obey not God, but men.

@b4ucuhear OK, I'll agree to step back slightly as I may appear aggressive, whereas I just try to be assertive. I remember a scripture which say to 'keep oneself without spot from the world'. And reading through many comments on this forum I can see that the GB and the Org's line of management, do not keep themselves without spot from the world. You seem in line with Mr Harley when you say people have 'a hateful agenda', and this does truly show how the Organisation really does brainwash the congregants. It appears so often on here that anyone that finds faults with the GB and the JW Org seem to have a 'hateful agenda'. When in fact all of us are just humans, trying to live our daily lives. IMO, anyone that leaves the JW Org should just be treated as Jesus treated the tax collectors. Jesus would converse with them, eat meals with them, and wasn't Matthew a tax collector. But because the GB changed the way that the announcement was made from the platform, no one knows if a person has left or were d/fed. If a person leaves the Org, they are no longer 'calling themselves a brother/ sister' so that scripture would not apply, about not even eating with such ones. So why so much shunning? Quote "There are millions of JWs who are good people by any standard, " There is only one standard that is worthy of consideration, God's standard.......... And if JW congregants follow the GB / Elders / JW org without question, then they are not adhering to God's standard but man's. You are once again in line with @TrueTomHarley and @Arauna here with your idea of 'any standards', because it means you are comparing JW's with the standards of this wicked world. The cars I drive are cheap and nasty, but if, when the weather is wet and cold, I compare my cars to a bicycle, then my cars are wonderful, near perfect in fact. Do you get t he picture now ?

Spoken like a truly brainwashed Elder, well done. You point to all the faults, then say how wonderful these elders are. Quote "At times the leadings of holy spirit are easy to recognize and at other times not so much." That is so funny as I think it has been proven on here that neither God or Jesus Christ approve of the GB or the JW Org right now. So it would seem that NO holy spirit is flowing into the Org. God can withhold Holy Spirit you know . Using the old excuse of how many Witnesses there are and the world wide preaching, means nothing in numbers. There are millions of Catholics and millions of Muslims too earthwide. You would say that the devil is helping them, but i would say then prove the devil isn't helping JW's. After all you have admitted that the GB / Org : " Sometimes organizationally, we "go beyond the things written" as to dates, types and antitypes, times and seasons and even doctrinal issues. " So in other word the GB and it's Org has deliberately told lies. 'Gone beyond the things written', made up dates, and types/anti-types, and even questionable doctrine. So GB/JW Org is as bad as Catholics, Muslims et al, in those circumstances. But of course you are so deeply involved that you cannot see how bad the GB /Org is. And then, i think, one of the GB has said that God/Christ trust them, and GB member asks if congregants trust the GB........... So funny. Can you honestly not see this as funny. You point out some of the faults of the GB/Org, not including CSA and withholding information, homosexuals GB members, lawyers that tell lies in court, et al. And the GB want to know who trusts them

Unfortunately, we have had to learn the hard way what would have been the morally right thing in the first place. James 4:17 "Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him." I just love the way some JWs make up all the excuses, but then admit to the faults of the GB and It's Org. @b4ucuhear Unfortunately IT IS THE VICTIMS THAT HAVE SUFFERED, NOT THE GB OR IT'S ORG.

Just for the pure stupid length of it all My Harley. I only read half. It has no real benefit to any of us. It's just like reading a kids bedtime story when we need real important spiritual FACTS.

Quote @TrueTomHarley Today Witness parents are encouraged to take an active role in their offspring's future plans so that they will be able to support themselves decently. Yes, so was that actually true about 'not letting them have a driving licence if they don't get baptised' ?

Quote @Anna Nor do I think that's the attitude of JW leaders. So what exactly is the attitude of the GB and it's lawyers for not handing over the complete 20 plus years of Database concerning Child Sexual Abuse accusations ? After all shouldn't they 'obey God as ruler rather than men' and wouldn't God want His name cleared ? Wouldn't God want justice for the victims? So it would not matter about what laws of men were in place. What is the attitude of the Australian Bethel brothers for not apologising to victims ? The Australian government apologised and people of different religions agreed with the apology, but not the JW Org. What was the attitude of the UK Bethel brothers / solicitors when they refused to hand over the information to the Charity Commission ? Even though later they had to hand the info' over. What did Jesus say ' If you are conscripted to walk one mile, then walk two miles'. Why can't your GB actually take note of what Jesus was teaching here ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Separate Comment :- @TrueTomHarley Quote " The reason that you have been likened to Butler is that he had the same wont for overstatement,... " Oh come on then, show me my overstatement word for word. Just as John Butler did I try to write the truth as I know it. Unfortunately he got disfellowshipped for it here.

@b4ucuhear Quote " I agree with you on that, since I know a number of brothers who have been disciplined for child molestation in various congregations. All of them have been faithful brothers for many years now without incident. But a potential problem with that type of weakness is the rate of recidivism that can accompany that type of behaviour. Naturally, there are some very thorny legal issues associated with appointing a person with such a history and whether he would even potentially offend again." I wonder if those brothers are in the 20 year long DATABASE that the GB are refusing to hand over to the authorities. If you KNOW A NUMBER OF BROTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN DISCIPLINED FOR CHILD MOLESTATION, then shouldn't you go to the Police or authorities with your information as @Anna likes to tell people to do. After all if they 'have been disciplined for it', then they must have done it. The plot thickens. And @TrueTomHarley says not many JW's do it. Child Sexual Abuse and Homosexuality, and still trying to pretend that the JW Org is clean. Remember Jesus saying 'First clean the inside of the dish, then the outside will also be clean'.

My point about not eating mince pies or turkey is that IMO it seems like an anti-holiday thing, which in it's own way is recognising the holiday exists. To recognise the holiday exists is being part of the world. It's all so crazy. Just like reading all the ingredients on a tin to make sure there is no blood in the food. Who actually reads every label on every thing ? The sin would surely be if one deliberately ate what should not be eaten ? But to go looking for it, is that really necessary ? By the way mince pies are here in UK now and I've eaten loads already. Oh and it seems Space Merchant has gotten eating food mixed up with celebrating festivals

It's a good thing I understand such things as normal to all people, or it would "stumble" me. Well I suppose it's a good thing that you are happy to be in an organisation where it is the common thing for people to tell lies then isn't it . Um, did someone call the Org the 'TRUTH' ? John Butler one said on here that he trusted No One, and he was ridiculed for it. But I doubt people will remember that far back.

It would be wrong of me to tell you what i really think of you, but I'll just say you have a completely warped sense of reality. VICITMS of child sexual abuse were THROWN OUT OF THE JW ORG and then shunned. You are totally brainwashed by your GB and it's ORG. Can you honestly give me a quantity / number, of ex-JWs that you had known personally, that left the JW Org, and can you give proof of them going on to take drugs, immoral sex, smoking et al ? But then you'd probably go on to tell lies just as JW's do. By what you have written above, it is you that is 'spreading false info' about others. At least oposers have some proof of what they say about : Child Sexual Abuse, Lies told in courts, False teachings and false predictions, teachings of men taught as doctrines, etc.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Separate Comment :- Well it looks as if the GB's lawyers have learnt 'the wisdom of this world' by the way they tell lies in courts. And your GB must have learnt the 'wisdom of this world' when they go on about tight pants and masturbation, and accuse people of opposite sex of having committed fornication when there is no proof of it. And as for the 'empty speeches' and 'false knowledge', um, we don't have to look too far back in history of the Bible Students and Watchtower / JW Org. Yes your GB have definitely deviated from the faith.

Secondly. Mr Harley has no idea whatsoever, just how many JW 'leaders' are involved in CSA.“ BECAUSE THE GB ARE HIDING PAEDOPHILES IN THE JW ORG BY WITHHOLDING THE 20 PLUS YEARS OF DATABASE INFORMATION FROM THE AUTHORITIES. Hope that helps him to understand it.