Patiently waiting for Truth
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Posts posted by Patiently waiting for Truth
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11 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
I expect NOTHING from anyone else, and I am never disappointed.
I disagree with your many unrealistic premises, 4Jah2me, as being a Barbarian myself, like the Shadow of old time radio fame ... I know what evil lurks in the hearts of men, and the thorns in their sides that never heal, and the fears and terrors of the ghosts that haunt them, and the cowardice that runs through all of our mortal bodies.
You think, in my considered opinion, like a child.
I find you very amusing Mr Rook. It seems that you feel you can say things against your GB and its Org, but others should not.
Come on, Holy Spirit is not like drinking a casual cup of coffee. Holy Spirit is a gift from Almighty God through Jesus Christ. I would at least expect to see some kind of positive result from it.
Since the great disappointment of 1975, the Org has lost momentum, lost congregants, lost direction, changed it's teachings, is now losing money in multiple court cases, has lost credibility as to being a 'clean' 'wholesome' Organisation. It is stumbling and bumbling along. Being led by 8 men who are totally lost. Blind leading the blind, and oh what a pit they have fallen into.
The very fact that you expect nothing, and get nothing, shows there is NO Holy Spirit in JW Org.
I'm off to my kitchen to get a casual cup of coffee
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11 hours ago, JW Insider said:
I'm pretty sure there was never any accusation concerning more than 3 of them out of 17 or 18 contemporary GB members at the time. (Jaracz, Greenlees, Chitty) I do not believe there was the slightest suspicion upon any of the others at the time, nor any of the current members either. Also, even if a child molestor tends to molest boys rather than girls, it is not the same as homosexuality, and this was the accusation against one of the three. Another was long rumored to be homosexual, and was ALSO accused of having been a child molestor. And the third was a man who had evidently been homosexual, but I never knew of any rumor or accusation of an underage partner.
I tend to think on things as being the tip of an iceberg
And to be boring, this brings us back to that Database they are withholding. Oh what wonderful information must be in that 20 + year Database.
- Srecko Sostar and Shiwiii
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On 12/4/2019 at 7:19 PM, TrueTomHarley said:
It is true. They do not. Some are far more vocal about it than Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some froth and crusade over it in realm of the general world, as Jehovah’s Witnesses do not.
Well if half the GB in the past were Homosexuals it's no wonder the Org wants to keep it quiet
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On 12/4/2019 at 8:55 PM, b4ucuhear said:
Simply stating an opinion that some people have a hateful agenda doesn't mean they are "brainwashed." It's simply an observation/opinion borne out by what we see and experience. I could just as well say that you are "brainwashed" because you disagree with me. You can either agree or disagree according to your observations - you are entitled to your opinion. Brainwashed has become a derogatory term used too loosely these days and especially apparently, by you when someone disagrees with you.
Once again, you are welcome to your opinion. And while I agree that mindless unquestioning obedience to whatever is said by imperfect, uninspired men won't always reach God's standards, by the same token, you too are an imperfect, uninspired individual - as is every other human alive. But I'd put far more weight toward what I have learned through JW's than I would with you. So feel free to believe what you want.
Thank-you for the compliment of being "in line" with TTH and Arauna and thank-you for noticing. Once again, you are going beyond the scope of your reference after that. While it may be true that we compare JW's standards with those of this wicked world (a fair thing to do by the way, as long as you don't leave it at that), we also try to align our standards with what we read in God's Word. That is why JW's are known for being honest, truthful, law-abiding, loving, loyal, peaceful... But you already know that. It seems that for you, it's like coughing up a fur ball for you to acknowledge anything good about JW's.
Yes, I get the picture...that you don't know what you are talking about and that the cute comparison in the context of our discussion only shows you drive cheap and nasty cars. Nothing more. There is nothing cheap and nasty about JWs as a whole (even though there are some bad apples). And JWs for the most part have already made the appropriate comparisons by either being raised in one of thousands of different religions or exposed to the different ideas of those same ideas in the field ministry.
One thing should be obvious to you by now. Most JWs have heard your negative rants and character assassinations before. In fact, they may have even entertained those same views prior to becoming JW's. So they aren't going to change because some anonymous loudmouth spews vitriolic diatribe over the internet. (I'm not specifically accusing you of that)
Yes, that's all. "Just humans, trying to live our daily lives." So why are you spending your daily life on websites such as this singling out Jehovah's Witnesses? Aren't there bigger fish to fry out there? What about all those religions that go to war killing millions of their fellow worshipers; celebrating pagan holidays; teaching people they will burn for all eternity in hell for some imagined infractions; terrorism and suicide bombers and a myriad other greater infractions? I could go on and on but apparently you seem conspicuously silent on the big issues and big fish.
I wasn't planning on wasting more of my time with people who have an agenda.
Quote " So why are you spending your daily life on websites such as this singling out Jehovah's Witnesses? "
BECAUSE THIS IS A JW WEBSITE and therefore I talk about JWs.
As for spending my daily life on here, wrong. It's Saturday and i haven't been on here since, Wednesday I think it was. My life is far too busy to spend too much time on here, Hence when i log on I find between ten and twenty comments that I've missed.
And when three or more JWs on here say that, so and so has a 'hateful agenda', then it certainly looks like they are being parrots, so I call it brainwashed.
Quote " And while I agree that mindless unquestioning obedience to whatever is said by imperfect, uninspired men won't always reach God's standards " Wow, we can actually agree on this.
Quote "That is why JW's are known for being honest, truthful, law-abiding, loving, loyal, peaceful... "
NO, that is what is shown on the outside of the dish. But Jesus said first wash the inside of the dish so that it will be completely clean.... Right now the 'world' is seeing inside the dish of JW Org.
The GB's lawyers are being seen to tell LIES in courts. The truth is out about Child Sexual Abuse Earthwide, and about victims being disfellowshipped to get them out of the congregations and to stop other congregants talking to them. What is being seen is the lack of love, mercy, justice, truth, honesty and law abiding behaviour.
I do wonder, when JWs are standing by the 'carts' with the literature, do they think it is because people are not interested in God that people walk straight past ?
Well maybe people know of all the wickedness inside the JW Org, so people do not want to get involved. That maybe why they walk straight past. Because the JW Org brings shame on Almighty God.
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IF holy spirit reached anyone in the JW Org it would be a great surprise to me.
IF holy spirit reached the congregants then would they carry on serving the GB and the Org ?
IF holy spirit reached the congregants then would they still go into the 'ministry work' teaching the LIES to other people ?
Would congregants take on Bible Studies and teach LIES of men from books, by not using the Bible properly ?
Would congregants encourage families into the K H knowing that there may be a paedophile in there ?
Well the congregants would know about the paedophile situation, if the congregants were blessed with holy spirit.
No, there is no holy spirit in the JW Org. If ever there was, which I cannot now believe, it has vanished. Almighty God has turned the 'tap' off. And you, Mr Rook, will know this more than I. Because you see the faults and lies, the injustice and lack of love, the lack of mercy, the man made rules as a heavy burden (as you mentioned).
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It would be nice to see any written 'rules' made by the GB or others in regard to shunning a person that has left the JW Org. Maybe JW congregants should be issued with a GB rule book of do's and don'ts. That way every one would know exactly what procedure is right when serving the GB and it's Org.
My feeling is that in the first century, all those that became true Christians, serving God through Christ, were of the Anointed, heavenly calling. Therefore it was more important for them to be 'without spot from the world'. So stricter discipline would be more acceptable to those of the Anointed class. 'To whom more is given, more will be demanded'. Hence IMO, the scriptures are written for the Anointed, and then the Anointed should teach the earthly class. (The GB are not of the anointed. By their works you will know them). So then @Srecko Sostar the questions would be more complicated. Should stricter rules apply to the Anointed than to the earthly class ? The Anointed should be inspired of holy spirit and capable of more self control........ All those scriptures were written by Anointed ones for Anointed ones at that time.
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@the Sower of Seed If the GB were inspired by God's holy Spirit. If the JW Org was also inspired of God's Holy spirit. Then the things you write would be correct.
IF YOU took some time to read some of the topics on here you would find the TRUTH about your GB and It's Org.
IF YOU took some time to research information online. such as court cases which can be verified, then you would find out the TRUTH about your GB and it's Org.
If you looked into the 'turnover' within the JW Org I think you would find one of the biggest turnovers of all religions. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing how many congregants leave the JW Org of their own choice, how many children are disfellowshipped and how many adults are disfellowshipped. And then of those adults disfellowshipped, there is no way of knowing who was unfairly disfellowshipped.
So your idea of "Jehovah's Witnesses experience the highest form of happiness," is very untrue.
The JW congregants do the will of the GB and it's management of 'overseers' / Elders. The congregants obey not God, but men.
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15 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:
I am not in the U.S. and so cannot confirm or deny your comments. I can say that reporting is mandatory in my country.
I agree with that. After all the GB themselves have appointed men who were not whom they appeared to be (as have other levels of authority within the organization.) As for the rest, I assume you are referring to Deut. 18:20 which JW haters are so fond of parroting. You are going beyond the scope of your reference in your suggestion especially as to how JWs use the term as applying to themselves. The GB put out a video explanation of that for clarification as it seems some JWs needed to be clear on that issue as well.
I was willing and planning to write a point-by-point response to the things you have written - including those I may agree with. But frankly, now I think it's just a waste of time. You clearly have an agenda that won't be swayed by what I consider "facts" and your hateful diatribe (from someone who apparently doesn't even believe in God in the first place) is to me, counterproductive. I am happy having a purpose in life, a wonderful hope for the future and a warm loving relationship with my creator and many friends. I wish the same for you, but of course, you may already be happy and content with what you have. We will have to agree to disagree - on some points at least.
Umm...it's called being honest in case you don't recognize it. You noted correctly that I was willing to acknowledge negative things that may happen, but when I wrote what I considered to be reasonable explanations/positive points, you dismissively wrote it off as "excuses." Truly, there is no pleasing people who appear to have a hateful agenda and only see the bad. You are of course welcome to your opinion. It's just that on some points I don't share your opinion. Is that OK?
I have been willing to honestly acknowledge both positive and negative things about us, but I've only heard negative, hateful diatribe from the naysayers here with not one positive thing to say in all these missives. There are millions of JWs who are good people by any standard, but if anyone bought into your nonsense they would all be viewed as bad or negatively. I may not agree with Muslims, Catholics, Pentecostals... but I can always find points of agreement when engaging them in conversation and things I like about them - even when it isn't a religious discussion.
So as far as I am concerned, you are not only unfair in your blanket characterizations, I simply don't find your association either enlightening, helpful or even fair-minded.
@b4ucuhear OK, I'll agree to step back slightly as I may appear aggressive, whereas I just try to be assertive.
I remember a scripture which say to 'keep oneself without spot from the world'. And reading through many comments on this forum I can see that the GB and the Org's line of management, do not keep themselves without spot from the world.
You seem in line with Mr Harley when you say people have 'a hateful agenda', and this does truly show how the Organisation really does brainwash the congregants. It appears so often on here that anyone that finds faults with the GB and the JW Org seem to have a 'hateful agenda'. When in fact all of us are just humans, trying to live our daily lives.
IMO, anyone that leaves the JW Org should just be treated as Jesus treated the tax collectors. Jesus would converse with them, eat meals with them, and wasn't Matthew a tax collector. But because the GB changed the way that the announcement was made from the platform, no one knows if a person has left or were d/fed. If a person leaves the Org, they are no longer 'calling themselves a brother/ sister' so that scripture would not apply, about not even eating with such ones. So why so much shunning?
Quote "There are millions of JWs who are good people by any standard, "
There is only one standard that is worthy of consideration, God's standard.......... And if JW congregants follow the GB / Elders / JW org without question, then they are not adhering to God's standard but man's.
You are once again in line with @TrueTomHarley and @Arauna here with your idea of 'any standards', because it means you are comparing JW's with the standards of this wicked world.
The cars I drive are cheap and nasty, but if, when the weather is wet and cold, I compare my cars to a bicycle, then my cars are wonderful, near perfect in fact.
Do you get t he picture now ?
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17 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:
With regards to "being appointed by 'holy spirit,' a few things to keep in mind. A recent "Treasures From God's Word" stated: "The stars are under Jesus' full control, power, and direction." That COULD be a bit misleading depending on how literally you view that statement. Should we assume then that elders will do everything perfectly - as if Jesus by holy spirit has them on remote control - controlling every thought, decision and action within the congregations? If that was the case, the elders/GB would always act perfectly. Should we actually expect that today? Recall, that even while Jesus was letting the first century anointed elders know that they were accountable to him as to how they used the authority entrusted to them, what was actually going while he was yet speaking? Apostasy, immorality, lukewarm, half-hearted service that wanted to make Jesus vomit them out of his mouth... Why would that be the case when Jesus is in authority?
As we recall, we are often reminded not to expect perfection from our brothers and sisters - including appointed elders. The apostle Paul candidly described his battle with good and bad inclinations. But there are other reasons too.
1) Holy spirit does not give appointed men a miraculous ability to read hearts and minds. A person is spoken of as being "appointed by holy spirt," when they are seen to live up to the qualifications set out in God's Word - which is inspired by holy spirt. But humans are limited in that respect and sometimes mistakes are made. (i.e.. GB appoints an individual as an elder and later as a Circuit Overseer who turns out to be a communist spy that turns in the brothers causing some to stumble. Jesus didn't direct that to happen. After all, he would be working against his own interests - like a house divided. It was human limitation.)
2) Neither Jesus nor holy spirit take away a person's freedom of choice. (As was evidenced by what was going on even while Jesus was speaking). As we also know, in the first century, there were men in the congregations described as "rocks hidden beneath the surface." They weren't forced or directed to do that. That was their personal choice - which is important because our heart conditions are revealed by the choices we make. Anyone - including men in authority can make a wrong choice if they don't guard their heart. Freedom of choice is important for obvious reasons.
3) If something isn't dealt with right away, does that indicate Jesus isn't in control of the congregation? No. As the comments point out, "if someone needs correction, Jesus will see to it that this is done in his own time and way." And it should come as not surprise that it's always been that way. As 1 Tim. 5:24 states: "The sins of some men are publicly known, leading directly to judgment, but those of other men become evident later." Later?!! How much later? The Bible historically answers that too. Sometimes the sins of some men like Korah and others became publicly known leading directly to judgment (when the earth swallowed up the rebels.) But other times, faithful men endured injustice for years, or decades and some would never see justice until the resurrection. So at times, things don't happen when and how we think they should. Or when we think is best. But we can have confidence that, as in the past, they will be dealt with one way or another.
4) The operation of holy spirit can at times, be hard to "quantify." The first century Christians had strong and undeniable evidence they were anointed by holy spirit and some even had miraculous gifts. Even so, they didn't always have a complete understanding of things and some expectations were premature - although they were very interested as to where they thought the spirit was leading them. Likewise today. At times the leadings of holy spirit are easy to recognize and at other times not so much. Sometimes organizationally, we "go beyond the things written" as to dates, types and antitypes, times and seasons and even doctrinal issues. Well meaning, yes, but sometimes we forget that instead of making "predictions," (even while admitting we are not miraculously inspired prophets), our mandate is to preach and teach - not make up stuff that doesn't have a specific Biblical foundation. Historically and biblically there is nothing new to this. God's people have always had a gradual understanding of the outworking of God's purpose - and often leaning new things means we have to discard old things.
But in all of this it's important to remember what is truly remarkable about benefitting from Jesus' authority as head of the congregation and what he has been able to accomplish using imperfect men. Miraculous some would say.
A) Jesus has been able to direct a world-wide preaching work using imperfect men, women, children and yes, imperfect elders. But it's much more than that when you think about it. We are preaching in Satan's backyard. He is the "god of this system of things" and has the support of powerful spirit creatures (henchmen) and world governments. And what is part of the message we deliver? "Satan is a malicious liar and that he and all of his spirit buddies, along with the world system he has spent thousands of years to develop, are all going to be destroyed." We preach that "right in his grill." How do you think that goes over? We would never be able to accomplish that if Jesus wasn't a powerful king in control of the congregation. So do we faithfuly follow the direction of appointed elders as to the details of accomplishing this ministry?
B) We have what everyone has wanted for thousands of years but been unable to achieve. World unity. Despite being from all nations, tribes and tongues - from different backgrounds and stations in life, we are united. But we aren't just united in a stalemate - "I won't attack you if you don't attack me." No. We are united because of the love we have for one another. The type of love that Jesus taught and demonstrated in our behalf.
C) Many/most of Jehovah's Witnesses come from other religions. Even those born into the truth are exposed to many people from different faiths. And there is one thing we can all testify to: Spiritually, we are BY FAR, the best fed people on earth. More than that. We are the best fed group of people who have ever lived. We even know things first century Christians didn't know. Al of this is readily available. That is no accident. and Jesus continues to educate us using (imperfect) elders as teachers in the congregation.
We benefit from a loving arrangement Jesus has by holy spirit set in place for our benefit. It's helpful to liken this arrangement to having good parents. As we grew, they fed us, cleaned us, clothes us, disciplined us, taught us, cared for and sympathized with us. When we were hurt they supported us. And even when we reach maturity, they are there for us and continue to love us. Again, this is possible by means of Jesus direction in the congregation and holy spirit.
Spoken like a truly brainwashed Elder, well done.
You point to all the faults, then say how wonderful these elders are.
Quote "At times the leadings of holy spirit are easy to recognize and at other times not so much."
That is so funny as I think it has been proven on here that neither God or Jesus Christ approve of the GB or the JW Org right now. So it would seem that NO holy spirit is flowing into the Org. God can withhold Holy Spirit you know .
Using the old excuse of how many Witnesses there are and the world wide preaching, means nothing in numbers. There are millions of Catholics and millions of Muslims too earthwide. You would say that the devil is helping them, but i would say then prove the devil isn't helping JW's.
After all you have admitted that the GB / Org : " Sometimes organizationally, we "go beyond the things written" as to dates, types and antitypes, times and seasons and even doctrinal issues. "
So in other word the GB and it's Org has deliberately told lies. 'Gone beyond the things written', made up dates, and types/anti-types, and even questionable doctrine.
So GB/JW Org is as bad as Catholics, Muslims et al, in those circumstances. But of course you are so deeply involved that you cannot see how bad the GB /Org is.
And then, i think, one of the GB has said that God/Christ trust them, and GB member asks if congregants trust the GB........... So funny. Can you honestly not see this as funny. You point out some of the faults of the GB/Org, not including CSA and withholding information, homosexuals GB members, lawyers that tell lies in court, et al. And the GB want to know who trusts them
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Unfortunately, we have had to learn the hard way what would have been the morally right thing in the first place.
James 4:17 "Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him."
I just love the way some JWs make up all the excuses, but then admit to the faults of the GB and It's Org. @b4ucuhear
Unfortunately IT IS THE VICTIMS THAT HAVE SUFFERED, NOT THE GB OR IT'S ORG.
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33 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:
I can’t imagine why anyone would downvote that, @4Jah2me—I really can’t. I mean, there is hardly anything that is controversial.
For that matter, it is beyond me why anyone would downvote anything.
When I make a comment that takes a shot at some villain (as this one does not) it is understood that he is not going to like it.
Just for the pure stupid length of it all My Harley. I only read half. It has no real benefit to any of us.
It's just like reading a kids bedtime story when we need real important spiritual FACTS.
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Quote @TrueTomHarley Today Witness parents are encouraged to take an active role in their offspring's future plans so that they will be able to support themselves decently.
Yes, so was that actually true about 'not letting them have a driving licence if they don't get baptised' ?
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1 hour ago, Anna said:
That was not the impression TTH gave me. Nor do I think that's the attitude of JW leaders. I think it's ignorance of how child sexual molestation really works, and naivete regarding "repentance" is what has caused all the doo doo.to happen.
Quote @Anna Nor do I think that's the attitude of JW leaders.
So what exactly is the attitude of the GB and it's lawyers for not handing over the complete 20 plus years of Database concerning Child Sexual Abuse accusations ? After all shouldn't they 'obey God as ruler rather than men' and wouldn't God want His name cleared ? Wouldn't God want justice for the victims? So it would not matter about what laws of men were in place.
What is the attitude of the Australian Bethel brothers for not apologising to victims ? The Australian government apologised and people of different religions agreed with the apology, but not the JW Org.
What was the attitude of the UK Bethel brothers / solicitors when they refused to hand over the information to the Charity Commission ? Even though later they had to hand the info' over.
What did Jesus say ' If you are conscripted to walk one mile, then walk two miles'.
Why can't your GB actually take note of what Jesus was teaching here ?
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Separate Comment :-
@TrueTomHarley Quote " The reason that you have been likened to Butler is that he had the same wont for overstatement,... "
Oh come on then, show me my overstatement word for word. Just as John Butler did I try to write the truth as I know it. Unfortunately he got disfellowshipped for it here.
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@b4ucuhear Quote " I agree with you on that, since I know a number of brothers who have been disciplined for child molestation in various congregations. All of them have been faithful brothers for many years now without incident. But a potential problem with that type of weakness is the rate of recidivism that can accompany that type of behaviour. Naturally, there are some very thorny legal issues associated with appointing a person with such a history and whether he would even potentially offend again."
I wonder if those brothers are in the 20 year long DATABASE that the GB are refusing to hand over to the authorities.
If you KNOW A NUMBER OF BROTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN DISCIPLINED FOR CHILD MOLESTATION, then shouldn't you go to the Police or authorities with your information as @Anna likes to tell people to do. After all if they 'have been disciplined for it', then they must have done it.
The plot thickens. And @TrueTomHarley says not many JW's do it.
Child Sexual Abuse and Homosexuality, and still trying to pretend that the JW Org is clean.
Remember Jesus saying 'First clean the inside of the dish, then the outside will also be clean'.
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My point about not eating mince pies or turkey is that IMO it seems like an anti-holiday thing, which in it's own way is recognising the holiday exists. To recognise the holiday exists is being part of the world. It's all so crazy. Just like reading all the ingredients on a tin to make sure there is no blood in the food. Who actually reads every label on every thing ? The sin would surely be if one deliberately ate what should not be eaten ? But to go looking for it, is that really necessary ?
By the way mince pies are here in UK now and I've eaten loads already.
Oh and it seems Space Merchant has gotten eating food mixed up with celebrating festivals
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On 12/1/2019 at 12:27 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
What gets me is, as in the book 1984 ... the Society revises history, as stated in the examples given above,
That was Winston Smith's JOB ... to revise history.
THEN .... when called on their actions, stare blankly into the headlights and say "No, we didn't!"
It's a good thing I understand such things as normal to all people, or it would "stumble" me.
It's a good thing I understand such things as normal to all people, or it would "stumble" me.
Well I suppose it's a good thing that you are happy to be in an organisation where it is the common thing for people to tell lies then isn't it .
Um, did someone call the Org the 'TRUTH' ?
On 12/1/2019 at 5:25 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:Trust NO ONE, and you will seldom be disappointed.
John Butler one said on here that he trusted No One, and he was ridiculed for it. But I doubt people will remember that far back.
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On 12/1/2019 at 3:35 PM, Arauna said:
Since most people are shunned for unrepentant immorality - I think you are missing the point. Those few who leave for other reasons often end up in "relationships " or some other habits like drug abuse, smoking etc. Many, who are totally unrepentant end up opposing JWs in very deceitful ways, spreading false info about us.
It would be wrong of me to tell you what i really think of you, but I'll just say you have a completely warped sense of reality. VICITMS of child sexual abuse were THROWN OUT OF THE JW ORG and then shunned.
You are totally brainwashed by your GB and it's ORG.
Can you honestly give me a quantity / number, of ex-JWs that you had known personally, that left the JW Org, and can you give proof of them going on to take drugs, immoral sex, smoking et al ?
But then you'd probably go on to tell lies just as JW's do.
By what you have written above, it is you that is 'spreading false info' about others.
At least oposers have some proof of what they say about : Child Sexual Abuse, Lies told in courts, False teachings and false predictions, teachings of men taught as doctrines, etc....
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Separate Comment :-
On 11/30/2019 at 9:18 PM, TrueTomHarley said:The way the Bible expresses it is: “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.” 1 Tim 6:20
The verse you are looking for is: “The wisdom of this world is such that God could learn a thing or two from it if he wasn’t so brain-dead.”
Let me know when you find it.
Well it looks as if the GB's lawyers have learnt 'the wisdom of this world' by the way they tell lies in courts. And your GB must have learnt the 'wisdom of this world' when they go on about tight pants and masturbation, and accuse people of opposite sex of having committed fornication when there is no proof of it.
And as for the 'empty speeches' and 'false knowledge', um, we don't have to look too far back in history of the Bible Students and Watchtower / JW Org. Yes your GB have definitely deviated from the faith.
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So lets try to be a bit positive. A question. How is the GB and the JW Org moving forward SPIRITUALLY ?
What progress has it made in the last fifty years ? I'm not talking about physical things, not buildings, not books, not meeting times........
I'm talking about purely spiritual matters. Spiritual guidance, true spiritual love from the top of the Org down, mercy, understanding of people, serving the congregants as a way of serving God Himself (as Jesus did), showing patience without having weakness, making true adjustments according to true scripture not according to man's guesses.
You may of course comment as to what you feel would make for good spiritual progress within the JW Org too.
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Quote @TrueTomHarley " No. You are preoccupied with this, and @4Jah2me lives and breathes it. But anyone else takes into account that there is no sizable organization on earth where CSA is not an issue, and no one that is not being sued—and in most cases, it is the leaders who are the abusers, something very rare with JWs, whose leaders are just accused of not reporting. "
Lets break this down. Firstly Mr Harley (just like Aurana) likes to compare everything to the 'world'. We all well know that the 'world' belongs to Satan the devil. So in effect Mr Harley likes to compare the GB and it's JW Org to Satan the devil. Wow, great comparison.
Secondly. Mr Harley has no idea whatsoever, just how many JW 'leaders' are involved in CSA.
The proving point will come WHEN the Paedophile Database of 20 years + is 'opened up'. Whilst the GB and it's lawyers keep that 'can of worms' closed, then there is no way of knowing.
I am of the opinion that Almighty God wants His name (or the name JWs use) made clean. Therefore all efforts by the GB and their lawyers will eventually fail. That 'can of worms' will be opened up, for all the earth to see. Then and only then, can Mr Harley truly decide, with full facts, exactly what percentage of JW Leaders are guilty of Child Sexual Abuse.
It would also be interesting to know exactly whom Mr Harley is speaking of when he uses the term 'leaders' when applied to the JW org. For me it is from the GB right down to Ministerial Servants. But I hasten to add that I do not know all the ranks and titles and I think titles change on a yearly basis.
I think @Srecko Sostar has already covered these above points but i needed to add my concerns.
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Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. What if in many cases of the Bible, particularly in Genesis .... what we have translated as year or years ... should have been translated as EPOCH(S)?
What excuse did the Society / JW Org come up with to suddenly wipe out the 7,000 year creative day theory ?
And if NO ONE IN INSPIRED OF HOLY SPIRIT , then anything could be true or false. To the point that the 'All Scripture is inspired of God.. ' scripture, may only refer to the Hebrew writings, as it was written before the Greek writings were completed and certainly before the Greek writings were gathered together to form one 'book'.
Hence we truly need a TRUE Anointed Class to be able to receive God's Holy Spirit to give us true 'Food at the proper time'
- AlanF and Srecko Sostar
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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
It is five weeks away. That is when the JW schedule of weekly Bible reading hits Revelation 22, and it would be too inconvient to make them start all over again at Genesis.
They won't have finished all the JW CSA court cases by then and victims would lose out.
No, it will take years to try to repair the damage to the JW Org. And if only baptised JWs will get saved then the Org will have to be squeaky clean. Dream on.......
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@Arauna you must really have OCD about sex.
Quote " The signs read: "love does not shun". True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun. "
The sign is about emotional family love, nothing to do with immorality.
Reminds me of those on here taking about 'tight pants tony'... You JW's seem to have relate everything to sex or to this rotten world that belongs to the devil.
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Quote @TrueTomHarley “Okay, let us accept as a given that the Witness organization is full of BS. "
Please explain in simple terms what exactly BS means.
Quote "see how 4Jah2Me complains that he cannot get his questions answered "
Does that make me an opposer, just asking questions ?
Quote "I will not patiently stay and “debate” those who oppose, because the organization prefers that we not... "
My Harley, you are so brainwashed by the Org that you do not know an opposer from someone who gives facts about the GB and the JW Org.
As an example, which as been used many times, the GB said it was opposers / apostates that had made up stories about CSA. And when anyone gives genuine details about faults in the GB and it's Org, the one giving the details (whistleblower) is called an opposer / apostate.
So it gives you and the rest of the JW org an excuse not to talk to such ones. However if you do not debate then it is you that is losing out.
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On topic. I have honestly known JW's that will not have a proper cooked dinned on Christmas day, as it looks like a Christmas dinner.
'For fear of stumbling others'. They just have a salad or soup or some other small meal.
I remember when working with some brothers years ago (they were builders) and i took a box of mince pies for lunch. Not one of those brothers would eat a mince pie
It was soooooooooo funny.
When i think of what wicked things go on in the JW org, and then some JW's worry about christmas day dinner and mince pies. Where is the common sense ? Where is the sense of balance ?
You shall not murder vs You shall not shun
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@James Thomas Rook Jr.
I believe this 'Rule Book' shifts the goal posts quite often, with updates on certain matters.
Also as you say it is Elder's eyes only. So how do the congregants know proper the 'rules' then ?
Surely each Elder could 'translate' the rules according to His own needs.
And as you say 'Most JWs don't even know about that book.
What does that show ? It shows that congregants are naive and blindly follow the words of the Elders.
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@Srecko Sostar
John 10:16 Jesus said :-
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."
So there are two folds it seems. A fold can be a hollow in the ground, or a group of people.
I always thought a 'fold' was a fenced area in a field or farm yard.
My point is that i think the Greek scriptures are for the Anointed to follow more closely. The Anointed are in one fold, the earthly class in a different fold. But are one flock because they follow the one shepherd, Jesus Christ. However, i think God and Christ demand much more from the Anointed because this is the testing ground of the Anointed, here and now. The earthly class will get a thousand years to grow back to perfection, and then a final test.