Patiently waiting for Truth

Today is Friday. I haven't looked on here since Wednesday.  There must be around 8 new pages. 

BUT it's full of rubbish !    People being personal about each other. My Harley being as stupid as usual.

Mr Rook and Dilbert.  Alan F filling up pages for the sake of it. 

Well, I'm glad I've spent my time doing more sensible things. Materialistic things, but sensible.

When's Armageddon My Harley ?  Ten years time I reckon.

And @The Librarian I do feel sorry for you. Don't let the ba.. (no, i can't say that on here) Don't let people upset you. Maybe some topics should have a cut off point at 30 pages. (Just a suggestion).

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No.

One reason I do not get worked up when Agent Jack or someone posts news of a JW  elder caught in an act of CSA is because, with even the most cursory bit of follow-up, it is seen how extraordinarily rare this is. With other organizations, religious or secular, it is the pattern. JWs, unlike any other group, are being penalized for CSA among renegade members.

Agent Jack posts news of a lawbreaker getting his just deserts, and who can get worked up over that? Not me. However, such deeds are extremely rare among JW elders.

It may be that there will be a penalty to pay for leaving the reporting of CSA to the digression of affected or knowledgeable parties—and then it turns out that many did not do so out of concern for not bringing reproach on God’s name. That is why it is such a good thing that it was made very clear in the May 2019 study article that the reporter does not bring the reproach—the abuser does.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/02/the-reproach-of-child-sexual-abuse-falls-on-the-abu.html

Time will tell how above matters regarding reporting lapses from elders will shake out. Possibly it will go down as a matter to JWs lasting shame. This is a strange world and one cannot know how things will end. Much like the police go after consumers of drugs because eliminating sellers and producers has proved impossible, so they do now with attempting to make more and more persons mandatory reporters of CSA, even where previous norms of confidentiality used to apply: doctor/patient, lawyer/client, clergy/penetant (on the supposition that these relationships cannot work without the expectation of confidentiality). Now it is all being examined and conduct legal and even expected at the time is being retroactively criminalized. Time will tell how it all turns out.

Still, despite modern efforts to criminalize the lesser “crime,” as it is being redefined because authorities have proven totally helpless in stamping out the former one, I still submit that there is a difference between the person who blows a person’s head off with a shot-gun and the person who came to know of it and, for whatever reason, did not report it.

(File that one away, JWI. Or maybe, given the heading of this thread, file everything else away in some category or other in you card catalog, and just keep this one.)

And just so @4Jah2me knows that I am not throwing up a smokescreen over Agent Jack’s topic...

Somewhere along the line, he asked breathlessly, ‘How will it all turn out?’

The answer that I did not give then but perhaps could have is, “Who knows?”

Maybe it will all be discarded at the highest level court, with opposers being made to pay all fees, and it will be a glorious victory for JW. Maybe the higher-ups named will be sent off to Atlanta again, and it will be a delayed victory for JW. For all I know, maybe Someone will perceive that as having had his eyeball touched, so that the delay will be no more than two seconds. I haven’t a clue.

I don’t weigh in on court things on a play by play basis until they are resolved. When that happens, I sometimes do, such as here regarding a big Montana case:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/is-it-time-for-jehovahs-witnesses-to-apologize-part-1.html

I avoid play by play because I am not a lawyer, and when commenting on courtroom proceedings, this is a very significant deficit. So I wait until afterwards. The most arcane and unexpected twists can come, and ones that have come can be undone, so that I avoid the subject until the dust settles. I don’t know the ways of the courtroom. I learned this lesson as a very young man, representing myself (which is what most people do) in small claims court. All hell broke loose when I went to hand the judge a document without first asking to “approach the bench”

(It is like young Timmy, who when the doctor asked, “What color is your stool?’ answered that it was white. He had never heard it called that before, but his Grab-a-Toy stool he used all the time.)

 

My comment you quoted was only to show @Arauna how over generalised her comments are. 

Quote @JW Insider " we really have nothing to lose and much to gain if our faith puts us on God's side. "

Oh dear, deep breath. Surely this is ONE OF the MAIN points of all this forum. 

From your comment :- IF OUR FAITH PUTS US ON GOD'S SIDE.

The whole point is, Does it put you on God's side ? 

Or, does it just put you on the side of the GB and JW Org ?   For there is a very big difference. 

10 hours ago, Anna said:

Both WT, January 2016, and January 2020 that talk about the anointed, applies to ALL the anointed, which includes the GB. There is no difference between them as regards their anointing, and how they should be treated. And, even how much holy spirit they get. Some will disagree with me on this, but in my opinion the GB do not receive any more, or any "special" type of holy spirit or insight than any other anointed, or anyone else for that matter. The Bible does not say the FDS anointed know more, all it says is that they are to provide timely spiritual food, which is already in the Bible, and dispense it to the others and to each other, since they are also "domestics".  Also they are not the only spokesmen for God. Anyone speaking the truth about God and Christ are also his spokespersons.

I will admit I haven't yet read the Jan 2020 Wt but wanted to comment on this :-

Quote "There is no difference between them as regards their anointing, and how they should be treated. "

So if the GB can gather together then so can other Anointed. But not according to the GB 'rules'.

Quote " but in my opinion the GB do not receive any more, or any "special" type of holy spirit or insight than any other anointed,..." 

So what gives them the right to call themselves the F&DS ? What puts them at the top of the tree ?

And What stops them being removed from office ? 

Quote " The Bible does not say the FDS anointed know more, all it says is that they are to provide timely spiritual food, "

You seem to be twisting things here.  There are no F&DS anointed made known in the Bible. They have just called themselves as such. There is no proof of any appointment by God or Christ. 

Quote " all it says is that they are to provide timely spiritual food, .." 

BUT THEY HAVEN'T. They have supplied LIES.  They have also made 'man made rules', burdens for congregants to carry. Heavy loads as mentioned in God's word. 

They make threats. One such being that a person HAS TO BE a Baptised JW to survive Armageddon. And they add to that, that Armageddon is 'just around the corner', so close now etc. I'm sure if you were realistic you could understand that as a threat.  It is not a warning, because they have no proof of either.. 

Quote " Also they are not the only spokesmen for God. Anyone speaking the truth about God and Christ are also his spokespersons. "

So one doesn't need to be a JW to be a spokesperson for God then? 

And the GB and it's Org cannot be spokespersons for God, if they DO NOT speak TRUTH.

So we could go back over all the lies / mistakes / false predictions from the Bible Students and JWs, and we could say that they were never spokespersons for God. 

Quote @Arauna  Those without conscience will also murder if they can get away with it and many other immoral things if society let's them get away with it too!......

So because society allowed JW Elders to get away with it Earthwide, they committed Child Sexual Abuse and kept it hidden in the ORG. And the GB, because society allows them to get away with it, are holding back a twenty year database of Paedophile accusations. 

I can see the likeness 

 Quote "Their time for ruling and being together  is not now  " 

Says who ? (  @Arauna we can all play your silly game) 

Your GB are ruling right now, 8 mainly American men, with American thoughts and personalities. 

Whereas God through Christ has anointed people from ALL the Earth. 

But your GB domineer them. Will God and Christ allow that to continue ? I think not. 

Why anoint them if they are not allowed to make full use of it ?  Why not just chose faithful people from amongst the dead. 

Can you imagine the disciples receiving Holy Spirit then being told to go home and keep quiet about it. Being told not to teach others. Being told not to gather together. 

I don't think anyone is saying that disfellowshipping or shunning is totally wrong.

I think the argument / debate, is about when those things should be used. 

I also think it has been proved that JW Elders have disfellowshipped people for unjust reasons. And that people are shunned for unjust reasons. 

As you will know scriptures can be misused by anyone. So I think what some of us here are looking for is justice, mercy and love. I'm sure there must have been many times that Jesus could have turned some of his disciples away, but Jesus showed love and patience and mercy. 

I quite often think about Matthew 12 v 9 through 12.  ...' so it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath'.

A couple of points here :-

1. In times past the whole of the anointed here on earth were classed as the F&DS 

Then the GB in their selfish 'wisdom' decided that ONLY THEY are the F&DS.

So who is exalting themselves above others here? Who is separating themselves from the Body of Christ ?  Who are the ones that are trying to domineer ?  

2. For the Anointed to contact each other does not mean literally gathering in one place. Or do you live so much in the past.  We have internet, we have mobile / cell phones. Even prior to this we had fax machines and landline phones. So using the excuse that the Anointed would have to gather in one place is rather pathetic. 

I do honestly hope that members of the Anointed DO CONTACT EACH OTHER.  Those of the Anointed will have more spirituality and guidance from God. Otherwise why would God even have an Anointed here on Earth. God could just as easily use Christ to chose a person after they have died, and then resurrect them in the spirit. Why would God anoint someone and then tell them (through the GB) to be inactive as an Anointed ? 

Of course you GB worshippers don't like the scripture of 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' because you know the Jew represents the whole of the Anointed. 

The Org needs Anointed people from around the Earth, to be the leaders of the Organisation. They need not be permanently in one location together. Internet is quite fast you know . But the GB would lose their power to dominate 8.5 million people, and to also dominate and lie to another possible 8 million so called Bible studies.   

1 hour ago, Anna said:

True. It does not automatically disqualify him, but usually it does. I listened to a tape recording of an Irish bother in the 80's who was disfellowshipped for apostasy. I quote him:

 “ I will say to you brothers and sisters over there, don’t be afraid, serve Jehovah with all your heart, if some start to believe the Trinity, well, allow for that. Many godly men believed the trinity down through the ages of human history. I like what one of the Roman emperors said, if God is offended, he can handle it, actually he said if the gods are offended, let them handle it. But Jehovah is not offended at men’s ignorance or innocence, he understands  our background, our sociological conditioning.......our educational standard, he can grasp all that, and allow for that......In fact my prayers are so much closer in speaking to Jesus, in fact I did ignore him over the years, but I have been speaking to him much more since, and I find that great.....”

As you can see, most of what he says there, flies in the face of scripture.

So wow, you found one person to fit your purpose, congratulations. 

If ex JW's can prove how wrong the GB and JW Org are, then they are serving God's purpose to either clean up that Org or to get rid of it, so that God through Christ can use it or replace it with true worshippers. 

If your GB tell Anointed brothers and sisters not to contact each other, then that is obviously wrong, as those brothers and sisters are of the same BODY OF CHRIST. 

Did God use the Romans to destroy Jerusalem ? Or did God just remove His protection from Jerusalem ? 

Is God using ex JW's or just allowing them to do HIS work ? 

1 hour ago, Tom Henry said:

I agree, ALL opposition examples are dumb.

I'm opposed to CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE. Is that dumb ? 

I'm opposed to religions telling LIES. Is that dumb ?

I'm opposed to a Governing Body that give themselves that name so that they can Govern instead of Serve.  Now you will probs think that is dumb too. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Doubtless it is the same with the announcement that replaces the one about disfellowshipping. 

It used to be announced from time to time that “so and so has been disfellowshipped.” For several years now—what is it? maybe 10? it is “so and so is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

It gets the job done, and it avoids the problem of being attacked over the fact that “disfellowship” is not a word that appears in the Bible—and so villains try to spin it as an evil corporation of man-made rules “controlling” the minions. 

The revised announcement has all of the “upside” and none of the downside of the former one. “Upside” is in quotes, of course, because it is a downer when the announcement is made. It is a moment of silence, all fidgeting, daydreaming, and chattering halts. It is a very sad time, even if everyone concedes the necessity of it, and the road to recovery is not so plain at all. There may not BE a recovery. DF is a last-ditch measure of discipline, when all else has failed, to jolt the transgressor, but more importantly, to safeguard the congregation from the influence.

To be sure, it can be perceived as mean-spirited, and it certainly is here by many persons who in most cases are opposed to JWs regardless, but given the way humans are built, the case can be made that values of the congregation cannot be preserved “without spot from the world” any other way. That is the lesson drawn from the book Secular Faith, by Mark Smith—a book the WT has quoted for a separate but related reason:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/in-defense-of-shunning.html

Of course opposers will rail at it because the well-being of the congregation is of no concern to them.

If someone is doing the deeds and saying the sayings of Jehovah’s Witnesses, then that person is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If someone refuses to do that, how can it be said that he or she is still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? The “improvement” of the new announcement over the old is that congregation members recall from the Bible just how a person who has served Jehovah and then willfully rejects that life is to be viewed. They think of “treat him as a tax collector and man of the nations,” that Jews had “no dealings” with. They think of “not even eating with such a man,” “never saying a greeting.” They will recall the counsel to “reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene,” (2 Timothy 2:16-17) and it comes to mind just how one deals with gangrene.

Thus, it is indisputably the Bible that directs congregation members. It is the Bible that tells them what to do, and for now, it is not illegal to follow the Bible. Opposers want to spin it that they are fighting a “corporation;” they are temporarily thwarted with this announcement. They are forced to reveal that it is not the corporation they are opposing, but God, insofar as the Bible represents his thinking, which to Jehovah’s Witnesses it does.

It is a better announcement than the previous one, not just for thwarting opposers, but also for us. It clarifies even for us that the Bible directs our conduct. The only “sin” that the “corporation” has committed is educating members as to what the Bible says on all aspects of life.

It allows more internal freedom to examine just what those verses above and others like it actually mean in all areas of life, such as the ones people carry on here about—ones involving minors, ones involving words as well as deeds, and what kind of words. All of this re-examination is going on now, I am convinced, even if every minor little tweak is not heralded with the announcement that malcontents insist upon, mostly so they can get right to work at undermining it.

With young people, the obvious tweak—and I think it happens now—will be to cut them some slack when they err, as young people almost by definition are apt to do. It is not to shut them out of the adult world of acting upon something once they come to know it is right. The late John Holt, a pioneer of homeschooling, used to maintain that juvenile delinquents are made that way—when they try to enter the world of adults and are shut out.

A sign that today indicates most Witnesses are well aware that the Bible directs their conduct, and not an organization, is the frequent complaints of those who have gone POMO—physically out as well as mentally out—that they are kept at a distance by family members even though no announcement was ever made—not of “disfellowshipping” nor “no longer one of JWs.” They rail and rail about this—the ‘brainwashing goes really deep,” they say. They cannot link their “shunning” to an announcement, and thus they are forced to conclude (though they refuse to) that members are allowing themselves to be directed by the Bible and not some human organization. Close family members have discerned that someone has turned away from Jehovah, and they don’t need an announcement to apply scriptural direction to the situation.

The man who studied the Bible with me and “brought me into the truth” had problems with this and went apostate himself—he may be sitting at Alan’s right hand now. Several were baptized through his efforts, and he later went back to try to undo some of the “damage” that he had done. To my knowledge, however, he had no success in this.

Douglas was an incredibly zealous man. His enthusiasm was boundless. He was a welder for the public utility, and I was assigned to be his assistant for a summer job in between semesters.

“Now according to the church, there’s far more wicked people than good, isn’t that true? For every good person, there has to be —how many?—say...100 wicked people? Right? Isn’t that what they teach?” he would gush, and then hit his punch line: “When was the last time you went to a funeral and the priest packed someone off to hell?!!!” I can hear him now, 40 years later.

After several weeks of such, he invited me to his house, where he conducted a classroom—about a dozen chairs were laid out, most of them filled—and he conducted a Bible study out of the Truth book. Soon after, or maybe it was before, he invited me to a Sunday meeting for a really good public talk, I thought. Same was true the next Sunday, and the next one after that. But on the fourth, he whispered to me, “This one is kind of a dog, but they are not usually like that.”

We had the incredible circumstance of an engineer who was so unbelievably inept that he would twiddle his thumbs for weeks on end, and those downstream from him, such as “his” welder and that one’s assistant, had nothing to do until he got his act together, which he never did. There must have been more to it than that—maybe he was someone’s relative—because even then that is not something that would normally happen. Speaking of one klutz, who had been fired, from an entirely different time, my Dad said, “You almost think that they could find a place for a donkey like him.” He said this because he came from a time and place in which large companies would do that. If they hired a man that turned out to be a clunker, they would say, “Ah, rats! Oh well—our bad. After all, he still has a family to support,” and they would give him a broom and find a spot for him where he could do minimal damage.

So it was that Don would witness to me 8 hours per day for several weeks, and neither he nor I were goofing off—there was literally nothing for us to do but await instructions that never came. Holy spirit had arranged for this engineer to be an idiot. (I just threw that line in for Alan, but having said that, the holy spirit is like the wind that you cannot see, and if anyone says holy spirit did this or that for me, even finding a mate, I never counter them—how would I know?) The first move was not his, but mine. This engineer didn’t get along too well with Douglas (nor with anyone else, as I recall) and he rebuked him at one point with, “You think you know so much just because you are one of those ‘Bible students!’” This intrigued me. I didn’t know that there was such a thing. 

“What do you mean ‘Bible student?’” I asked him later. “What’s that all about?” I had been brought up in a liberal Presbyterian church (it comes in several varieties) where few knew much about the Bible—at least not those that I knew of—and didn’t bemoan the loss. That was not why they attended. It was more of a social thing. I did not usually want to go. I hated being herded off with my siblings by mom, with dad’s full approval because it meant peach and quiet for him with the Sunday paper—I envied him, as he said, “religion is good for kids.” He never set foot in that church himself, and indeed was not very hospitable toward the minister. “Just remember who is the source of that contribution!” he told the poor fellow when he had come to call. My mom was a housewife—which was pretty much the norm back then, and did not otherwise work.

Seeng as I could not get out of it, I angled toward attending the church service itself, and not the Sunday School that I hated. I recall that there was some resistance to this from my mom, but in time I prevailed. I would there try to understand the Bible which was not explained—at most there was a ten-minute or so “sermon” to punctuate the service. I really did try to understand it, mostly because I liked the idea of understanding anything, but I could not understand it. I always assumed that it was my fault—I was not devoted enough, or studious enough, or persistent enough. I never dreamed that it was their fault.

I made the first move with this welder, not he with me. I think for this reason I will only go so far in “chasing” people in the ministry. “Well, the angels have to do something!” I have been known to say. Some Witnesses are so persistent with chasing down “interest” that they train householders not to show any, imo.

So.....fast forward now to after my baptism, and I run into Douglas at a circuit assembly. He is glad to see me, of course, and I him—we had met only one or two times after circumstances had taken us separate ways. This time he was different, however. This time he was not so enthused. This time he asked me—baptized less than a year—whether I thought ministerial servants and elders were really appointed by holy spirit. “Well, sure...I mean, I guess so,” I responded. It struck me as an odd question, and the next thing I know, he had gone apostate, he and his wife (though his wife later returned). In hindsight, I think that he felt he deserved to be a ministerial servant and was disgruntled at being passed over.

I have seen this several times with different people. One brother—plainly immature, though he went through the motions, would actually storm out of the Kingdom Hall if new servants were announced and he was not one of them. (He never was, and subsequent events demonstrated what a wise omission that was.)

A variation of this happened within the last few months. An unbaptized woman whose family has been loosely associated but inactive as long as anyone can remember, came to the hall yesterday—she rarely does. I resolved to speak with her, and as she headed out during the song, I followed her and caught up with her in the parking lot. I asked her about her son, who had been recently baptized, had been very enthused for a time, volunteering for many things, and then had disappeared, taking a job that required about an hour commute both ways. I didn’t play spiritual concerns, but personal ones. “Doesn’t matter to me just now when he returns, or even if he does. How is he doing?” I framed it.

She told me that she had been stressed out dealing with all the rubbish, as though making amends for leaving in such a rush, and I made it clear that I didn’t care about that, but about her. Thinking I had an “in,” I repackaged a comment I made during the Watchtower study at a paragraph stating how many persons feel unfulfilled and stressed out by their careers. I had said: “Being of that age, many I know are retiring. Sometimes they are Witnesses, sometimes they are non-Witnesses, sometimes they are people I meet in the ministry. Almost always they include the observation that they just can’t take the baloney anymore—and they don’t always say ‘baloney.’”

I repeated this line to the woman in the parking lot, using the real word, and she replied that she hadn’t been speaking of the BS of the world—“you expect that,” she said, but “the BS here” is what she was talking about. I laughed. “Oh, the bullshit here,” I repeated. I really don’t think there is any—at least not enough as might be expected anywhere that people are involved, but I didn’t want to overreact. I tried to draw her out, promising that I would not put everything she said on the internet.

She was miffed that her son had not been made a ministerial servant! That was the extent of it—at least in this case. He had done everything asked of him, he had volunteered for this and that, and they had not made him a servant! “Does he think that he was used?” I ventured, and I got the impression that this is far more her complaint than his—that is not to say that he doesn’t share it. At any rate, I said that I would love to see him again, that I have tried—for I was one of those ones who he volunteered to help when I was slogging through some unexpected troubles. 

Probably there is more to the story. The son was very zealous, and likable in every way, but he was new enough that I can’t quite imagine him expecting an appointment, much less becoming embittered with it not coming his way. I’ll speak with him in time—he really was a good sort, and probably still is. He had some that were trying to discourage him when he was putting himself out there—maybe they in time prevailed. Probably it is Alan. “Had enough of that overbearing know-it-all, yet?” I will ask him. “I know @Araunawishes to God that she had never learned of his existance”
 

Mr Harley it  looks like you are laying a road not writing a comment and IMO it is to hide half of what you have actually written, because you know yourself it is complete tosh.  So you have made it difficult for anyone to comment on it by writing for five miles long. 

However, quote . 

' It used to be announced from time to time that “so and so has been disfellowshipped.” For several years now—what is it? maybe 10? it is “so and so is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

It gets the job done, and it avoids the problem of being attacked over the fact that “disfellowship” is not a word that appears in the Bible.. '

Oh dear, how sad you are. Was it ever announced that 'so and so has left the JW's ?  Because the obvious reason for this 'newish' way of telling it, is purely to hide the FACT that many JW's are actually LEAVING the JW Org. The GB wishes to hide the numbers of those disassociating themselves from JW Org. 

Add to this that may Victims of CSA  have said they were d'fed for either complaining to the Elders or to outside authorities. So now the GB can, through it's 'police dept' (elders), d'fed someone who has suffered CSA but does not have enough proof, but that still complains to the elders. The elders can still threaten d'fed action with or without  the new 'rule book'. 

Quote " They think of “treat him as a tax collector and man of the nations,” that Jews had “no dealings” with. "

Are but we are not Jews, we are NOT under Mosaic Law. JESUS would eat meals in the homes of Tax Collectors. Wasn't Matthew a Tax Collector ?  And the disciples / apostles went out to the people of the nations to gather them to God. 

Quote " They think of “not even eating with such a man, "  BUT you have forgotten the whole scripture here. 

New International Version
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

So tell me o worshipper of the GB, what is the case if a person leaves the JW Org, and no longer calls himself / herself a brother or sister ? That scripture cannot applyote "

Quote " it is indisputably the Bible that directs congregation members. It is the Bible that tells them what to do, "

You are having a laugh Mr Harley. Congregants know who are pulling the strings, but congregants love being puppets. It means they do not have to think or have a conscience. If they go wrong they can blame the Org for it's misdirection. They, like you, worship the GB.

Quote "The only “sin” that the “corporation” has committed is educating members as to what the Bible says on all aspects of life. "

Oh if only it was the only sin. You are so blinkered. GB / Org sins include, CSA, disfellowshipping for false reasons,  Telling the Anointed not to contact each other,  pretending to be the F&DS, telling lies to congregants and to the world by false teachings, Telling lies in Courts and probably many more. 

But i won't be so selfish as to take up as much space as you did My Harley............. 

4 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

Yes, it’s sad that someone needs someone else to “enable” he/her attitude toward the Watchtower in order to continue this line of hate.

I wonder what’s the difference between, shunning an ex-witness derivative with that of worldly view, cut-off a family member?

https://www.drugrehab.com/2017/11/21/when-to-cut-an-addict-off/

 

 

 

Who cares about worldly views. JW's are supposed to be NO PART OF THIS WORLD. 

Why would you need to compare worldly views then ? Oh yes, just to make an excuse for the GB and it's Org. 

It's quite funny in KH's Watchtower studies. People answer like puppets. No one is allowed to ask any questions, just answer from the paragraph. And even funnier when parents tell answers to young children. It's so obvious that the children don't know what they are talking about, but parents try to make the kids look knowledgeable..  

You think the GB would dare to let real people ask questions ?  I think not. It would all be pre-planned script. 

Yes how wonderful JW's are when a D'fed person walks into the KH. Everyone stares at the D'fed.  'Oh look a D'fed, lets not talk to them, not encourage them to be here, but just look down on them'. 

Wow, and Jesus said Love was most important.  When Jesus was on the cross/stake, he said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"... But JW's are not even allowed to talk to a D'fed person, not even in the KH. 

BUT, when it's announced from the platform that the Elders have reinstated the D'fed, then wow, magic, the barrier is lifted, JW's can go and hug the D'fed.  Hypocrisy and rules of men at it's greatest. 

And again totally off topic.  

1 hour ago, Jack Ryan said:

Never would we want to be like the Pharisees, who resented those who questioned them and persecuted those who expressed an opinion contrary to their own.—Mark 3:1-6; John 9:29-34.

- Watchtower September 2019

 

 

Persecuted Jesus to the point of death. And, some would say, the GB persecute the Anointed by saying that the rest of the Anointed are not the F&DS  and by telling them not to contact each other, even though they are ONE BODY with Christ as head.. 

I presume @admin has given up on keeping things on topic  

Quote " But we don't IGNORE most forms of bad conduct. The elders are to watch over the flock, and give good counsel when they learn of bad forms of conduct. "

@JW Insider  But WE don't ignore ...   Is JW Insider actually admitting to be an Elder here ? 

And @The Librarian  whom Mr Harley refers to as 'she' and 'the old hen', has actually admitted to being a Man, I believe. So probably another Elder.

One more point though. Some of you guys tell stories of working with members of the GB and in the Writing Dept etc... . So you are not just ordinary 'run of the mill' JW's. A person doesn't go from being a 'member of a congregation' to being assistant to the GB.  And it had me thinking that if you've worked at the HQ in America, then maybe some of you know each other personally way before ever joining this forum.  Some of you, if you are to be believed, have such deep information that could only come from first hand experience at HQ Bethel USA, so I would presume some of you that defend the GB and the Org, know far more than you will ever make known on here. 

I'd love them to knock my door. I haven't been to a meeting for a long while and would love to ask them what new things they have learnt.  I've asked on here but there doesn't seem to be any important news. 

You and Mr Harley are quite often good for a laugh, and we all need a laugh at times. 

It would appear that Mr Harley and JW Insider (I think) have a personal need to say that I am John Butler. 

Please remember that John Butler and I are from the UK, so probably have things in common. I followed his comments therefore with interest. I can tell you one thing. If John Butler was disfellowshipped from this forum, it was for, frightening the Elders that run this forum. Mr Harley would rant that the GB were almost indestructable and could not be removed.  John Butler would say that if God wanted the GB gone, they would be gone.  There followed a dispute between someone known as Billy the Kid, whom told John Butler that he was basically cursed and had sold himself to the devil, and had no hope of a resurrection etc. I think there was some sort of threat from this Billy the Kid, about sending John Butler's details to the FBI, or some such.  Anyhow it seems that John Butler had suggested that the GB should be removed, and that was seen as a threat to the GB. Hence it would seem that the elders of this forum removed John Butler, as he was never heard of on here again. 

So, Mr Harley and JW Insider, if you need to think I am John Butler, then to you I am John Butler

For those with more sense if you think I am not John Butler, then I am not. 

Your GB would call that Spiritual Warfare.  

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Isn’t saying that you can err the same as saying you don’t know?

No, it's using the 'err' word as an excuse to tell lies. And I do wish I could find the quote whereby it seems that the GB say its ok to tell lies as it's 'Spiritual Warfare'.  @JW Insider will probs tell me I've got that quote wrong as well.  

Quote @JW Insider  " I agree that there should be a way to provide constructive criticism that isn't immediately seen as a kind of "running ahead" of the organization. "

Surely the whole point is, that the Bible Students, GB, Watchtower, JW Org, have been RUNNING AHEAD of CHRIST or GOD ?

Otherwise would not at least some of their 'predictions' have come true. 

@TrueTomHarley    Quote ".. that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time. "

Wow now that shows spiritual guidance, doesn't it ?  

It would appear, as I've probably mentioned before, that Mr Harley, once found out to have made a devious wrong move, tries so hard to turn it into a joke. He's such a self centred man. He even seems to admit that he doesn't read comments properly. 

@Arauna  But your quote, which I highlighted in red, proves that the earlier, Bible Students / Russell, were not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit, AND also proves that your GB / JW Org are not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit. 

As for sports clubs / organisations closing down due to heavy fines or loss of membership, due to CSA within them. I don't care. I am no part of this world, so why would I care ? 

Quote "But as usual - the press will only single us out even though the injustice was not "planned" or tolerated."

You know that isn't true. The ARC wasn't set up to deal with JW CSA was it ?   Earthwide governments / official bodies etc are being set up to look into most religions, and all other places where children are possibly being abused.  It is not just the JW Org. 

JW Org is singled out on here for the obvious reason that this is a JW org forum. 

Quote "There is nothing wrong with not having the full picture or making a mistake "   

BUT, it would be so nice, so honest in fact, IF the GB would say that they DON'T KNOW' rather that 'making a mistake' / telling lies.. 

Sometimes, when my children would ask me a question, I would have to answer that I didn't know.  My children looked to me for answers. Some questions I could not answer. But I had the honesty to tell them 'I don't know'. 

Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know'  when they were asked some important questions. If the GB and their Writing Dept' were only honest enough not to make up things when they 'do not know'.   The GB make themselves as bait for criticism due to 'mistakes' and dishonesty. 

One last quote here " We cannot remain in the truth without his spirit. " 

The Watchtower / JW org  has misused this word 'Truth' as a gimmick, a trick, a sly misguiding. 

Because truth actually means truth.  And TRUTH is in God's written word which never changes. But the 'beliefs / teachings' of the GB and it's Org constantly change.  

Which reminds me of JW 'parties' here in the UK. I know of such parties where Elders dress up in costumes.

One such Elder who's name is Andy, dresses up as Andy Pandy. Others dress us as the Incredible Hulk, Batman etc.

No part of the world of course   I do wonder what Jesus thinks as he looks down on them.