Patiently waiting for Truth

@Arauna Quote " My friend, this is only a wish these days - justice is becoming a thing for the rich only who can afford good lawyers and get off. " 

Not so with JW Child Sexual Abuse Victims. Some of them are not rich but they are getting justice at last. In many countries earthwide CSA victims from many 'walks of life' are getting some justice. Not just in JW Org of course, but it's good to see justice for all victims.

@Arauna Quote "Things are moving ...... not  exactly in timing as mommy WT organization predicted BUT as the bible predicted."

EXACTLY. The Bible is never wrong. Watchtower and GB and JW Org are OFTEN WRONG. 

Arauna, you are so helpful to us some times. When you actually admit that the W/t GB and JW Org are wrong. 

But go careful, because you could be accused of being Apostate by actually admitting your Org / W/t gets it wrong. 

After all that is why some of us are accused of being Apostate isn't it ? Because we believe God, working through Christ, as ruler, rather than men. 

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

We are encouraged by GB to think about things (meditate/ analyze) .  Our maturity in spiritual things depend on ourselves - the organization cannot teach us  this. 

@Arauna  I agree with you here, but the problem arises when, on thinking of spiritual things and reading the scriptures privately, we then find ourselves in disagreement with the teachings of the the GB  / JW Org. 

I have always been encouraged to pray for guidance of holy spirit and read the scriptures. But I do find that on reasoning on the scriptures, I have been troubled by the way the GB / JW Org have dealt with and are dealing with things. 

11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Oh.... wrote an answer and lost it..... start again....

I totally agree with you.... so you win the bet.  Lol.    When I compare the developments in the world to the core knowledge we have - then my appreciation grows.

Yes, there are renegades among us who bring shame on us with their wickedness.  But were we not warned about the rocks in our love-feasts which we can stumble against?  

My life changed when I did an in-depth study of Islam (read Quran, some hadith and sirah)....... I thought through the social structures of Islam and its promises to rule the world...... and its laws...... It made me analyze society and what the future society under jehovah will look like.... in order to show the differences in Islam and Jehovahs government.  I also compared sharia law and Torah /talmud  with the self-sacrificing love and principles taught by the true messenger from God- jesus.

Atheists also have no moral compass for society to function well.  Good and bad is subjective to them - not objective.  We are all supposed to be equal under God. As society is slowly replacing God with post modern and other human philosophies,  we are seeing a regression of conditions in first world societies...... the incompatibility of the iron and clay..... 

The neo-communistic philosophies that have infiltrated western societies through the Frankfort school of thought (Marxism also wants to rule the world)  and its alliances with Islam in the west - this favours an undercurrent of clashes and in future.  The UN has already brought in strict laws against islamaphobia to maintain "peace and order "  and they will bring in further new society rules to accommodate  new identified minorities. 

So yes,  I do have a different kind of OCD than some of our friends. I revert back to appreciation of the CORE teachings of the bible that is so different to  a fast- regressing secular world.  The first things I learnt from the bible which gave me my first love for God. These radical new and secular developments give me a good sense of where we are in the stream of time. 

I'm stunned. We have some sort of agreement here. 

But some of those 'core' teachings I knew when i was around ten years old and had never heard of JW's. 

We used to have a man in a van drive around our council estate. He was from Scripture Union. I would have discussions with him for many hours over the months.  I knew Jesus was not God. I knew the Trinity was rubbish.  I knew there was a hope for the future of a paradise earth. I don't know how I knew those things. 

13 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Like I said, no information. Only a non sequitur and idiotically lame attempt at humor.

Yes true. But Mr Harley has made it clear over the years why he is here, and it isn't to impart info' but to use other people's info for his profit. 

Arauna, well she probs' just as OCD  

@TrueTomHarley  I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but it appears to me that you and @Arauna are very selfish and actually offer nothing of use to any of the topics. 

Arauna very often talks about herself just as you talk about yourself. She will say 'I am not impressed' 'I do not fall for your bait.'

She and you seem to be full of your own self importance. IMO you both waste space here. 

21 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 

 

Curse that Alan idiot, anyway! We had a perfectly nice forum of lunatics and he had to spoil it all!

”How is your progress today, TrueTom?” my bevy of psychiatrists asked me at my last appointment. “Are you reintegrating with normal society? A little more progress, and we’ll let you go.”

”Um......uh......well you see.....there was this buffoon who was wrong on the internet....”

That all seems a complete waste of space here on this forum.  What are you actually writing about. 

@TrueTomHarley  Well you are always good for a laugh Mr Harley.

Quote "When speaking with others of a different point of view, it is important to treat them with a modicum of respect. It is important not to taunt and ridicule and insult. "

Well that was such a great joke.  Because you then go into taunt, ridicule and insult as many folks as you can. 

I've found most of your comments to be useless hot air, or just references to your 'books'. 

And you need to link me to being a disciple of someone else ?  Earlier you actually accused me of being someone else. 

Are you so insecure as to need to do these things ?  Can you not just accept me as being ME ?

On the other hand you accept your GB even with all their faults, and you don't seem to complain about them. You see how that looks like GB worshipping ? 

Oh yes your idea of " elevating self to godhood,", fits your GB well.  

And you burble on about my point of 'Armageddon being ten years away', and you seem to say this 'world' will not survive that long as it is. Well, my faith in God through Christ, tells me that it will take as long as it takes, and God/Christ can keep this 'world' ticking over for another 50 years if they wanted to. Do you not have such faith? 

Spot the contradiction here :- 

Quote "In that time, God will be able to raise up a pure anointed who represents him without flaw. I say, “Go for it!” Maybe you can start it up in your basement ... " 

Can you see the big difference ?  'God will be able to'  as apposed to 'Maybe you can start it up'

Mr Harley, I do not pretend to be God. I leave that stuff to your GB.  God can do millions of things that I cannot do. 

Mr Harley has the same mindset / way of deception, as the GB and the Writing Dept. 

And if you cannot see my reasoning about the use of   “make mistakes” and “errs, then it is because you are deliberately blind  to it. 

Have a good day. 

I suspect you don't like education.   

Is that the best  you can do ? Walk on 

52 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

..... sigh ......

Apparently ... sometimes my jokes are just for me!

Probs' because I'm British and don't understand American humour 

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

I understand how a moral society is supposed to function. I BET, you have no clue of social studies 101.   

I also bet - you do not notice the worsening morality in the West because you are not abreast with what is eally going on in the secular world.(misquote from you - I never speak of the Devil's world) .... so yea, it may come across as OCD but it is based on comparisons in the real world out there.

Regarding the English - lol.  My first language is not English and the English we speak has words such as " i am coming now-now" in it........ which means: in a minute.  I used to write in English for newspapers and magazines but that was a long time ago and I had to watch the rules, which I have already forgotten. 

Now- I do not care.  I write as I speak..... no ego to write accurately because I only use it as a tool to communicate.... appearances do not matter to me - only substance. 

@Arauna  I wish you would bet, as I think you would  owe me money  

Of course I have some idea of what goes on in the world. But it is the Devil's world, so should we expect anything different. 

In some ways it is encouraging to see the immorality in that 'world'. It is only proving God's word as correct. Critical times hard to deal with. Having no natural affection. Giving themselves over to lust and homosexuality.  It shows the need for God through Christ to intervene.. 

I only used the OCD as you love to use it so much when talking of others. 

http://socialstudiesproject.org/

15 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I checked, and it seems that we ARE in fact allowed to eat meatless hamburgers, but we are NOT allowed to donate blood.

The working theological premise is that before you can be a blood DONOR ... you have to be a blood OWNER.

But you are allowed to use fractions of human blood that other people have donated  . I thought blood was sort of sacred and belonged to GOD. If so then I would have thought NO ONE has the right to rip it into pieces. So in line with that thought I would think no JW would want to 'steal' blood fractions that actually belong to God. 

However it is possible that the scriptures actually meant not to literally drink blood, as it was the custom at that time. 

Someone else, maybe @Witness  (forgive me if I'm wrong) mentioned that the GB were putting themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. I think the idea was dismissed. 

However @AlanF comment here :- claiming to exercise the rights and prerogatives of Christ as his empowered representatives. >> 

This is fantastic. It proves the point beyond doubt.  

I don't link on to anyone, just individual comments. And that comment makes a lot of sense to me. 

@JW Insider Thank you for this comical comment above. 

A few quotes "Witnesses are generally very comfortable with their leadership."

Exactly how many people have you asked. Were they just elders that you asked ? 

Quote "Also, among JWs, there is a great appreciation for the good that comes out of association with others of like faith in the brotherhood. "

Yes it is a social club. Well here in UK it definitely is a social club. Hence when a person is disfellowshipped they lose EVERYONE they would normally spend time with.  Also hence, that is what keeps many JW's 'physically in', because of the fear of being totally alone if they left. Shunning keeps people in the JW Org, that is the way the GB / Org rules people's lives. So, no, many JW's are not 'very comfortable with their leadership', but they just don't have a good way out, without being totally 'cut off'.

And judging by feedback I'm getting from within the Org, fornication and divorce is increasing here in the UK. But I will not enlarge on that due to where I get my information. 

The word Apostasy can be argued here for hours, and in fact often is. 

And the GB seem frighten to announce reasons from the platform for why a person is 'No longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. 

So no one knows if a person left of their own accord, or was d'fed. 

As for this 'because no one has offered a consistent acceptable replacement yet.'  It is laughable. Just because you don't know exactly what is right, does that mean you don't know what isn't right ?  And doesn't it tell you to wait on God through Christ, instead of burbling on with untrue information ?  

Quote " Of course, the Bible already gives us a guide that shows there are also very serious kinds of apostasy, "

Give us examples please. 

And might your own GB be guilty of some of these ? 

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is too juvenile. If you appoint someone who turns out to be a clunker, you say, “Guess that wasn’t so inspired after all,” and let that be the end of it. I wrote it up here:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/08/the-loaded-words-infallible-inspired-and-perfect.html

There are people here who are like children that learn that there is no Santa Claus, and so they resolve to never ever celebrate Christmas again. Adults, however, do not cease celebrating for this reason—they fall back to the “greater meaning” of Christmas, and so forth. They realize that Christmas is much bigger than Santa Claus—he is something only for children.

Indeed, if the only problem with Christmas was that there is no Santa Claus, then we would be celebrating the day, some of us. Some would. Some wouldn’t.

In this case, the “no Santa Claus” is learning that the GB is made up of men who can make mistakes. Most never doubted that in the first place. But those who did and who truly love God and the core beliefs that identify Jehovah’s Witnesses and Jehovah’s Witnesses alone manage to make the adjustment without undo fuss, if only by reiterating the words of Peter: “To whom else shall we go?” Who else thinks the thoughts and does the deeds of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Another person that speaks twaddle ? lots of words that mean nothing / more smoke screen.  @TrueTomHarley

With all that I've been reading about 'those in power' in the Org from 1970 ish onward, it goes to prove without doubt that they were not inspired, nor were they even guided by Holy Spirit. 

Why do you people always have to relate everything to worldly things ? 

If I compared my house to a third world tin slum, then my home is almost perfect.  But if i compare my home to one of those houses the JW Org is selling in London for over one million pounds, then my home isn't so cool. 

That is why you people love to compare your GB and it's Org to the world, so that your GB and it's Org always looks better. If you were brave enough to compare your GB and it's Org to GOD'S HIGH STANDARDS, then you see the many dangerous faults. 

And as for your scripture misquote “To whom else shall we go?   I don't remember reading in God's word, that the answer was, Go to the JW Org. You see how you twist scripture to suit your own means ? 
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

The scripture is concerning JESUS CHRIST, NOT JW ORG. 

Quote "In this case, the “no Santa Claus” is learning that the GB is made up of men who can make mistakes."

I think the Watchtower words were ' make mistakes and err'

So in your eyes does that mean make mistakes and make mistakes  (which makes no sense) 

Or, does it mean make mistakes and deliberately do wrong ?  

Please don't have the wrong kind of 'love' for your GB, that it becomes worship. Because if you do you will be too forgiving, and in so doing you will not 'search all things to see if they are true'.  

On this forum, we have seen this critique a few times. It was clearly claimed by @JOHN BUTLER, who sadly was "DF'd" from the forum. 

I just have to pick up on this point. Firstly it's good to know what happened to him.  So the question is why ?

And secondly @Anna and others, that @JW Insider directly says disfellowshipped, even if he uses the 'safe mode' of inverted commas. 

This, in my opinion, upholds my belief that this forum is run by Elders. 

@TrueTomHarley    That is the longest bit of self righteous advertising i have ever read on here. In fact it was so boring that i skipped lots.  And once again a SMOKE SCREEN  to get away for the REAL topic. 

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

I would have liked to merge this with my reply above, but had to go away and do something. Anyway, as I've already shown, I did not side step your question but I answered directly that I do not think God would appoint a man such as Greenlees:

 

Like I said:

The process by which holy spirit "appoints" is through that scripture. Since JWS believe the Bible is inspired of God by means of holy spirit, then if one works along with the scriptures, one is working along with the holy spirit. Obviously in the case under discussion, holy spirit could not have appointed this man because unbeknown to those making the decision, he did not qualify. Which also answers your other question

Obviously it was not God but men who were fooled.

Obviously. However I very much doubt that someone would have purposefully employed a pedophile.

I am sure she has, and hopefully she has given that list to the Police.

Sure

I don't know much about him, only from what you and JWI said.

That's hardly and inspiration for reform.  I have seen them. Full of loaded language and sensationalism. However, the ARC was a different kettle of fish.

 

I am sure there have been coverups. But I am sure you know cases are very complex. I have read two court transcripts (two different cases) each several thousand pages long. So I know what I am talking about.

That's good. Children need protecting.

No, I did not say it was a lie. It's you, you are not comprehending the process. Those days of tongues of fire are long gone, with all the other outward manifestations of miracles etc.

So no one in the JW Org is appointed by Holy Spirit. No one in the JW Org is Inspired of Holy Spirit.

Wow, that seems to say that the JW Org, and it's GB, have no Holy Spirit between all of them.  And the proof is coming out in the court rooms every day  

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

If teaching a better understanding of "sacrificial love" is flannel...... then your understanding of how society should function is limited....... as most Western societies are now having a problem with the fabric of society.  Religious, racial hate is escalating. People are looking to "social engineering " and post modern philosophy to provide answers.  They are now promoting new minorities such as LGBTQ and protected religions. Soon the UN will bring  in their arbitrary values to create "peace and security"  but will fail at the peace. 

Amidst all this - jehovahs people are United under the moral values taught by christ.  In countries divided by racial hate such as south  africa and  growing racial divide in USA ...... we are United and the  level of support and  care for each other improving. 

The core teachings of truth are there - we just need to improve our social skills with each other to meet the standards of jehovah as taught by jesus and his apostles...... 

I can do better: most allow smoking, pre marital sex, use of predictions, superstition, use of idols, and many are now voting for approval of homosexuality and LGBTQ..... I can go on .... 

@Arauna   I have to say very bluntly that you talk rubbish.  Always going on ( OCD ) about the Devil's world. 

I think your understanding of English English  (as opposed to American English)  is very poor. Not the understanding of the words but  the understanding of the meaning of what I write. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, that you do not understand me, otherwise it is that you deliberately misquote me. 

Oh @JW Insider  what twaddle. Changing man made things / Traditions of men. That is not 'New Light'  That is not God supplying Holy Spirit to reveal important things. That is not a F&DS  supply 'food at the proper time'.  It is showing that so many mistakes were made in the past, that it could not have had God's / Christ's guidance.  

Quote , We got back to the higher powers (superior authorities) being secular in the very early 60's. .......

But this was an ORIGINAL TEACHING of the Bible Students.  Those in power changed it for their own purpose, and it would have caused many deaths or great suffering in WW2 I would presume. 

Quote Made smoking a DF offense, which has probably improved the health of thousands. 

But it was known in the late 1800's by the Bible Students that Smoking was wrong. However, to keep people in the Org, it was allowed until the numbers grew. I'm sure it was mentioned in the purple book. Is it the Kingdom book. 

Just as Christmas was allowed for years, until 1926 ?, even in Bethel   ( I wish I had a better memory) .

Quote. "We dropped the District Overseer. We reduced the quotas for various pioneer titles. We replaced the separate meeting for the "book study" to be replaced with personal/family study and more focus on field service."

Traditions of men. or Man made ideas. NOTHING to do with serving God properly. Not NEW Important teachings.

And then you go on about dates/ years, when the scriptures simply tell us we will not know the day or the hour.  Those dates are once again Man made teachings, and God tells us 'Put not your trust in earthling man'.   Proof positive with all the changes made. 

Quote "We now tell parents and guardians that they are free to inform authorities about child sexual abuse without concern for anyone's reputation. We now include elders informing authorities as part of the process wherever it is the law to do so. "

The GB / Org has been forced to do this due to so many court cases . BUT You must be saying then that the GB / ORG told people they  WERE NOT FREE TO REPORT BEFORE.  

Quote "I see nothing wrong with thinking of the GB as anointed " 

If the GB were anointed, would they seriously tell others of the anointed that the others are not the F&DS ?  Just those 8 men

Would an anointed GB tell others of the anointed, not to contact each other or to study God's word together ?

Are they not ALL the BODY OF CHRIST ?  Should they all not be united  as one ? 

10.30 pm UK time. Enough for now. 

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

 Of course. So I will leave it between them and God.

Really? How? I thought I did the opposite. You put a smiley for every quote I post.

Sorry, I take the accusation back 

4 minutes ago, AlanF said:

4Jah2me said:

 Probably not much with regard to American law, since American lawmakers are in bed with all of the larger religions. But the GB could lose much credibility with the JW community, which would result in loss of members.

" since American lawmakers are in bed with all of the larger religions "

Well I've been wondering why America has been so slow in any form of action against JW Org. 

Australian investigation done and dusted, documents handed over etc... . 

UK Charity commission, documents handed over, done and dusted. Awaiting new investigation by I.I.C.S.A. 

USA, nothing. Only what seems to be private individuals taking the Org to court. why no big FBI or other investigation ? 

@Anna " I don't believe in upsetting the elderly "

you do it to me  

@Anna  'Sorry to disappoint you, but there are no elders running this forum.' 

You have proof positive ?  You personally know the 'owners of this forum' ?   

They seem to be able to 'disfellowship' people from the forum that they don't want here. 

People disappear without trace it seems. I may be a newbe with comments, but not so with viewing/reading the forum.  

 Caution told me to look before I jumped in. 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think that if there were a lot of new things, many folks would just complain that it represents things we had wrong and had to change. The basic foundational beliefs have been around for quite a while, and we wouldn't expect any big changes in any of these. But we've gained a simpler message even though most of the "deeper" ideas are not discarded.

I think that we can be a bit humbler now because we aren't so often trying to compare our level of scholarship with others. We are not into the scholarship that proves the Trinity wrong, or Christmas wrong, even though we understand that our position on these things is much better than Christendom's.

I think we are wrong on a couple of less important doctrines that should be revisited in a scholarly manner. But if the WTS decided to never revisit some of these things, and could help us completely replace our concern instead with showing love to our fellow believers, and then showing love to our neighbor, and helping us learn patience, humility, peace, joy, love, kindness, moral cleanness, I would not care at all about a couple of mistaken doctrines.

@JW Insider  I think here in the UK we would call that flannel (maybe spelt wrong) but it means using lots of words to say nothing, just to cover over something else. 

As you are one person that always seems to be 'on the button' then I'm presuming NOTHING NEW has been established since 1960. 

I would say even some of the core teachings have gone too. 7,000 year creative days, was a core teaching in the 60's / 70's 

I still don't know the truth about the prediction of 1975 Armageddon, but i do know that JW's sold their houses, left jobs, went full time ministry,  for it.......... So it must have been a pretty serious teaching in it's time. 

God and Jesus Christ being the 'superior authorities' was a core teaching that affected all JWs in WW2.

So, core teachings thrown away, and replaced with nothing, but JWs  still think the GB are anointed and are the F&DS 

24 minutes ago, Anna said:

This is all very entertaining! 😀

All ready 13 pages within a week!

If you haven't realised, it's a Smokescreen, to avoid the real TOPIC. 

Unfortunately, the JW Elders running this forum do not like certain subjects being mentioned. If it brings toooooo much disrespect on their beloved GB then it is either removed or sidetracked.  Just my opinion of course. 

I do find it difficult to keep up with it all, But I don't remember my questions being answered about

'What is the worst outcome that can happen to the GB in these 'cases' ? What is likely to happen regarding American law and the GB ? 

There I think that brings it back on TOPIC  

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It is possible to come up with a list of new things learned that are not merely a matter of losing unnecessary doctrine. Even when doctrines are removed, there is a positive reason for them. For example, when the couple-hundred doctrines that highlighted "class distinctions" by turning every parable and narrative in the Bible into a prophecy about various classes of people, we actually gained the ability to see Bible principles that applied to any and all of us.

But there is still a lot to be said for what Arauna is saying about merely removing the focus on less important things. The theme of Love at the last convention was very simple, but additional ideas for opportunities to show love were gained. Even if they hadn't been, that simple focus motivates each of us to look for new ways to show love for one another.

We SHOULD be in a position now to have plenty to think about, and yet allow our Christianity to help us "keep our eye simple."

*** w11 1/15 p. 25 par. 16 Empowered to Fight Temptation and Cope With Discouragement ***
16 Jehovah’s Word urges us to “make sure of the more important things.” (Phil. 1:10) Likening the Christian life course to a long-distance footrace, under inspiration the apostle Paul recommended: “Let us also put off every weight . . . , and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.” (Heb. 12:1) His point was that we must avoid needless pursuits, needless weights, that will tire us out.

They were saying much the same in the 1970's. But you still are not answering my questions. 

I know JW's  are living on a type of 'mana', just like the Israelites were in the wilderness, but the mana is being obscured by the GB adding pollutants 

25 minutes ago, Arauna said:

It is because you are looking for dogma or new rules or something like that.  Not looking for the right stuff....... one can see and still be blind to something in front of you..

Truths are being refined to get us through Armageddon right now.........we are shedding the unnecessary stuff and weight and 'growing' in support and care of each other. As I said...... you are looking for the answers that can suit your agenda.

No you are wrong. The dogma / rules don't need to be looked for, they are forced on JW's, and constantly mentioned on here. 

But i don't see any replies to my original questions yet. 

 BUT what important beliefs have we gained since 1960 ? What IMPORTANT SCRIPTURAL input have those at the top made since 1960 ? 

And I say the Org is stagnant. Hence it make up rubbish, such as the overlapping generations, as it goes bumbling along.  

Quote @Arauna  " you are looking for the answers that can suit your agenda."  Yes, as my Agenda is searching for TRUTH. 

Do some of your guys spend your life on the web, going from blog to blog / forum to forum ?  How many JW / Ex JW 'sites' are  there ? I'd rather go for a long walk in the countryside and see what God has created, myself, but each to their own