Patiently waiting for Truth

47 minutes ago, Arauna said:

By your words you  judge ALL of gods people..... A very low percentage of witnesses committed child molestation - something which is very hard to prove. Few people know that even university professionals did not know for a very long time what to do about this problem. Most professionals for many years allowed the child to go back into the home of the perpetrator- did you know this history of the professionals at universities?

It is easy to judge.... something I have noticed you do all the time (it is the automatic OCD-mode).  Since you are always using scriptures in deceitful way...... here is one for you...... 

James:  " the tongue represents a world of unrighteousness among our body members, for it defiles all the body and sets the whole course of life on fire, and it is set on fire by Ge·henʹna.  ...... Stop speaking against one another, brothers. Whoever speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks against law and judges law. Now if you judge law, you are not a doer of law but a judge. "

You are talking about the massive database of 1200 persons which happened from the years 1950's until present day?  About 70 years?  

There were NO laws in place in most countries until 1980s...... this was a taboo subject is most countries and there was no legislation in place. Most organizations that worked with children just turned a blind eye - there is no proof of them doing anything!

JWs kept databases to inform other congregations of problems - so suspected perpetrators could not move from congregation to congregation.  They were the only organization to do this-  and they are the ones who are denegraded for this and received media focus...... . Other organizations working with children did NOTHING.  More than 2000 organizations were asked about procedures during the Australian enquiry - but enemies of JWs only focus on JW statistics because they kept them......

By the way - the last legislation was passed in 2003- if I remember correctly.  This made it easier in court to get a conviction. Before this date the young child could be cross-examined in court in front of the perpetrator! 

 

 

 

What seems to have been proven in courts is that Elders deliberately hid the information from congregants, hence elders or others could continue to commit CSA offences,  and also that elders that had committed CSA WERE moved from one congregation to another. Those things HAVE been proven in court cases. So your defence of the GB Org is not so true. 

No nation on Earth considers death by warfare to be either murder or suicide.

Neither does Jehovah God.

I think I'd have to disagree on this... God / Christ made it clear that from the death / resurrection of Jesus Christ, that all people were equal.  I would think that God would now see it as murder to kill anyone intentionally.  I know that questions the idea of defence and the stopping of terrorism but .. 

I've always believed, and continue to believe, that only the Anointed are the body of Christ. 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I said before: eight old men who never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), mentioned in court documents while people like Epstein who had 37 cases against him in 2007 got off because the FBI covered up for him and went after the victims. A plea bargain made without the victim's lawyers informed.

All Epstein's workers who knew what was going on since 2007, all his high-up friends and his girlfriend who coached the girls - NOTHING!   New cases in England as well where rape gangs raped young girls - covered up.

What does that tell you about the condition of the world when the real unscrupulous predators go off free and the innocent who do NOT condone this, are accused.   

People like you - who just go after JWs- get so much joy out of this......... but this tells me personally that when good is bad and bad is good, we are ever closer to Armageddon.

Just a little while longer and the wicked will be no more....... thanks to Jehovah, Jesus is the judge.

@Arauna How do you actually know that the GB members  " never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), " ? 

There is it seems a massive data base of Child Sexual Abuse accusations hidden within the Org. And do you have all that information, so that you know who is and who isn't on that list ?  Do you know why the GB are holding back that list ? 

In Australia the brothers must have handed over their list of names about CSA accusations.

Here in the UK, after court action, the brothers handed over their list of CSA accusation.

But in the USA the GB and /or their lawyers are refusing to hand over their information ? 

Someone will scream 'but the laws are different in USA'. It would make no difference if the laws are different in USA,   IF the GB would act on the scripture 'We must obey God as ruler, rather than men'. 

Seems quite funny that the GB /Org tells people to disobey laws of man when it involves some things, such as joining the armed forces, but yet the GB hides behind laws when it suits them. 

@Srecko Sostar  Thank you, but did you actually read ALL of that ?  Sorry i only read bits. Too much for me. 

. 

@JW Insider Yes I'm angry and I'm confused, as are others that trusted the JW Org for years, only to find out things that the GB / Org does that cannot surely be approved of by God. 

Unfortunately you use that word apostates again, because JW's are brainwashed with that word by GB / Elders.  I do wonder is there ever a meeting in a KH where that word isn't mentioned, either from platform of congregation. Can you not just accept that some of us are seeking TRUTH. 

Quote "Of course, I've brought up some of these same challenges myself, ...."  "I believe that we need some doctrinal adjustment"

" I'm not exactly defending the GB position against your challenges. "    (I come to bury Caesar not to praise him).  

" Yes. The GB dictate to the congregations and, unless the dictate is seen as unconscionable or unscriptural, the members of the congregations are expected to obey. Naturally, this can go too far,... "  (and it does go to far hence people complaints).

" GB's request to be trusted while admitting that some of the teachings and processes are bound to be mistaken now and then.. "

I believe the Watchtower comment was that the "GB are not inspired, so they can 'make mistakes and err' "

I picked up on this because the word 'err' can mean make mistakes or deliberately do wrong. 

But they would have written 'make mistakes and make mistakes'  so the word 'err' in this case must have been meant to deliberately do wrong.  Add to this that you are saying that "some of the teachings and processes are bound to be mistaken now and then.. "  

So if your GB are the F&DS  FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE,  why would God or Christ give them false information, or why would they be so indiscreet as to 'run ahead' of God given information. They admit to not being inspired, we agree on that much, surely they should be, as you would say, 'spirit directed' ?   Do you thing the 'overlapping generations' is spirit directed ? 

By the way, in your hypothesis, I didn't see the mention of God's holy spirit playing a part even once. 

I think I'm actually 'offended' (that not being exactly the word I'm looking for but.) by the words Governing Body. I hate when people use that to describe the first century overseers. Governing surely means to be in charge of, whereas those at the top should not be 'lording it over the congregation of God'. I would think a different title would be more appropriate.  What is your opinion on that ? 

"guardians of doctrine." didn't the Catholic church once use that expression ? So much so that they didn't allow people to have the Bible.....  But JW's are allowed to have their own Bibles and to do private study. However if JW's come to their own conclusion about certain scriptures, they must not share that with other JW's or it may be seen as 'causing a division in the congregation'.  I find it funny, sorry.  It's like, yes read the Bible yourself but only believe what we say. 

It is now just after 12 noon here in UK. I need lunch and coffee (just to show you that I'm actually human). I could write tons more, such as the GB being 7 of the 8 American, whereas it could be more men from different countries. Or , such as the GB now being famous earth wide, but then telling the rest of the Anointed to not even contact each other. The GB saying only they are the F&DS, where as it was once the whole of the Anointed being the F&DS.  Thelist goes on.

And the fact that you are @JW Insider   A JW but giving out info about the GB and it's Org, so you cannot be completely happy with it yourself. Physically in but possibly spiritually out. Have a good day. 

I know nothing about law and defo' nothing about American law. So can someone kindly break this down into simple terms for me.

What exactly are the GB members being accused of ? I ask because I don't want to gain or give wrong information. 

Does this involve the Child Sex Abuse database ? It is does would it mean the GB / Lawyers would have to hand over the database to the courts / authorities ? 

Maybe @TrueTomHarley would have some kind of 'level headed' input on this ?

@James Thomas Rook Jr.  I haven't got to understand where you are in / out of JW Org but do you have any 'sensible' input to this ? 

You may or may not know but us British are not allowed to receive some info' / news reports etc, from some countries. I often go in to do research and get a bit NO from certain sites. Something to do with data protection maybe ? 

So I am deeply interested in this info from @Jack Ryan . Thank you Jack. But I'd honestly like some level headed, neutral information to clarify what the GB members are being accused of and what it will or could mean for the JW Org. 

I have often seen on this Forum that the GB are the top guys and cannot be removed from 'office' as there is no one in a position to remove them. Will this court action make a difference to the GB's position in the JW Org ? 

I have to agree with @TrueTomHarley on many things he says. The JW Org speaks truth according to scripture on many things. And with a bit of tweaking it might just serve God well  . The GB or Writing dept' do spoil it all though with, what i call running ahead of God. So I do wonder what the future holds for JW Org. 

14 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't ever remember anyone saying, or thinking, or insinuating that JW publications are a substitute for God's word. Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.

@Anna I think you miss the point. In the so called bible study, more time is given to the book than is given to God's word.  And the book is uninspired, so only man's viewpoint.  Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true. But as I've said twice already, the books are to get people into the JW Org, and the information / doctrines / ideas,  change quite often, so cannot be counted on as true. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I did note in our assigned Bible reading for this week the 2 John 4 verse: “I rejoice very much because I have found some of your children walking in the truth.”

He did not find “all” of them doing so. He found “some” of them doing so. And what of the ones who were not?

If the atmosphere was anything like it is here, the brothers taking the lead were being blamed for all of them. Even the fact that they are now regarded as “inspired” would not have saved them in the eyes of their critics, who did not believe it for a second.

 @TrueTomHarley    Talking of blood you said "Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.” " 

Whereas the blood was already mixed surely and was full blood, but it has been broken down from that mixture.  A bit like un-mixing your cake. 

And I'm not quite sure who you are referring to above, as to  ' they are now regarded as “inspired ' .  Do you mean the first century Christians or the present GB ?  

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In school, I studied math. But I refused a textbook because that was not really math, but was a book about math. 

I also studied science. But I refused a textbook because that was not really science, but was a book about science. 

What! Those frauds were trying to indoctrinate me!  But I was too clever for them.

Well....you do have me there.

@TrueTomHarley  You honestly do make yourself sound stupid with some things you write. (AS you have said about me)

What is supposed to be, or is 'advertised as' a Bible study, should be a study of the Bible. Would you have refused to use a Bible in a BIBLE STUDY ?   

The books used in a so called 'bible study' are books written by the GB or Writing Dept' of JW Org / Watchtower, and are therefore only aimed at getting people into the JW Org.  Add to that, that the books are continually changing the teachings, doctrines, beliefs, whichever words you wish to use. So much so that some books get withdrawn or at least no longer discussed in public.  Lets harp back a few years when the teaching was 'each creative day is 7,000 years long'. Many people would have studied a book saying exactly that. Now the Bible has never said that has it ?  And the Org no longer seem to believe that either. So there is one tiny bit of evidence that JW Org books are not fully reliable, and cannot be a substitute for Gods' word.  

Maths is maths so basic maths shouldn't change. 'Science', well as it's part of the world in a lot of respects, it changes constantly.  BUT GOD'S WORD THE BIBLE DOES NOT CHANGE., that's the point. 

8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That’s a little too flippant. I’ll walk it back. @Srecko Sostar @4Jah2me

Even @Witness

“To he who has been given much, much will be expected” is more like it, and the GB operates, in my view, in harmony with that.

Sometimes in pushing back, one overreacts. The idea that I was trying to convey is that humans are not perfect, even those with responsibility, and Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that as a given.

I wonder if Almighty God and His son are being, and will continue to be, so forgiving of the Governing Body as you seem to say JW's are.  I wonder if there is actually any holy spirit flowing down from above to your GB / Writing Dept' / Lawyers /  Elders et al. 

I do wonder in fact, if  'much has been given' to the GB, or have they in fact, stolen it.  JW's (well maybe in your opinion anyway) seem to forgive many of the GB's mistakes, deliberate wrongdoings, man made rules etc. But I have noticed on here that even JW's (or those that appear to be JW's) seem not to believe or agree with much of the GB's 'new light'.  

To quote Arauna  "We are citizens of a future government and learning and adhering to the laws of this future government."

It would seem you are 'citizens' of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, and adhering to the 'laws' of it's Governing Body. 

@Srecko Sostar I like your last paragraph above. 

When Jesus was here on earth he healed the sick and helped those in need, in a physical way as well as a spiritual way.  Jesus has empathy and matched it with action.  Now did Jesus do this just to show what the future 'paradise' would be like, to show that through God's holy spirit he could solve all the problems of the people ? Or, did Jesus do those things because he really cared for the people ? Or both ? 

And thinking on the scripture from James concerning 'widows and orphans', is this action only to be used within the Org or more generally ? 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well....you have to think through what you say before you say it. If you say something dumb and present it as accusatory fact, what do you expect?

The guy was a realtor. Do realtors make deals for life? Of course if he was in the midst of a contract, we could expect that contract to be respected—otherwise he could sue whoever broke it for damages.

It is his repeat business that suffered, not his individual contracts, which only last a few weeks, or at most, months.

I have used several realtors in my lifetime. Not one courtroom said I had to keep the same one forever.

There are a great many “ifs” and “seems” in your accusations. Why don’t you nail them down with more certainty before going on the offensive with them?

OK Mr Harley, you win. 

44 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You didn’t read it right.

Of course. When I was in business, I always made legal contracts with my customers that they remain customers no matter what. I made it illegal for them to take their business elsewhere.

Once again you make fun of my comment.

My point was that if contracts / agreements were in place that they would have to be completed until such an agreement came to it's official end. End of contract.  Would it have been right for 'brothers' to break off an agreement part way through a 'deal' using the shunning excuse as a reason ?  Would that be what God sees as just and true action ? I think not.

52 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t think that we can see it here. In fact, JWI has said just that about the GB, or something very close. 

This is the second time you have addressed JWI and I have interrupted before he can answer. Ideally, I won’t do it again. But you make very strong statements on things you do not understand. You had no idea the role of the workbook, for example, and yet made the most ludicrous charge about it. 

If this is going to be your gig, it may be that you should attend congregation meetings for awhile, or even accept a Bible study, so that you can familiarize yourself with what you have decided to weigh in on.

@TrueTomHarley  Yes My Harley you do poke your nose in  .

I have attended enough congregation meetings to know that on a Thursday eve' here in the UK, congregants are given instruction with demonstrations as to what and how to present material on the doors. Magazine demonstrations are regular items. 

As for a Bible study, the title is actually misrepresentation. It is actual a book study sometimes using the scriptures as reference. It can therefore be seen as indoctrination of GB / JW Org thinking. If it was purely a JW answering questions asked by a member of the public, and using the Bible to answer those questions, that could be called a Bible study. As an example of this, if you have copies of JW books from the 1960's / 70's, you will notice great changes in 'doctrines' / teachings from then up till now. But if you have a Bible from back 100 years, God's word never changes. 

@Arauna  Quote " I find most Americans (not all) myopic and inward looking and entitled "

Myopic is an adjective meaning shortsighted in every sense. Whether you need glasses or a new attitude, if you can't see the forest for the trees, you're myopic.

 

Governing Body = Americans = myopic.  7 of the 8 are American.

 

You have travelled the world.  Quote "What I learnt in my travels is that 'cultures' give people certain values that they cling to " 

 

So it may be that the GB 'cling to a culture and certain values' of America. 

 

Why then do they not have a Governing Body with members from many countries ?  That way they could understand 'cultures' and 'certain values' of different peoples. I would presume there are many Anointed ones in many different countries that are equal in spirituality to the GB. Unfortunately the GB do not seem to think so, as they seem to tell the Anointed not to contact each other. 

 

You say about yourself "I am a natural rebel, could never follow rules and still hate rules." 

 

You say about me "I have a feeling that you would view any instruction as a dictatorship."  

 

I find this very amusing   I also find your constant mentioning of 'morality' very funny, considering the state of the JW Org regarding child sexual abuse earth wide. 

 

Quote "Do you view the instructions from Jehovah as a dictatorship? Especially on the laws he views as something we cannot compromise  on? "    Tell that to the GB lawyers in their court cases. 

 

James 1 v 27  The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation,i and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

Judge the GB and the JW Org on that scripture not as @Anna does , by comparing it to the Pope and the Catholic church.

 

 

@TrueTomHarley  Quote " Door-to-door preaching is not the easiest thing in the world, you know. Try it yourself and let me know what you think. "

I have Mr Harley, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. In the days when i believed all that the Watchtower would say. I didn't find the ministry at all 'frightening'. I found it to be fun though obviously having a serious theme. People in general would either listen or just say no. Always difficult to get good rounded discussions though in my opinion. I will admit to never getting beyond basic presentations and only getting invited in a very few times. 

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yes, it is a man made rule, but based at least in part on scriptural principles. Also these are man-made rules coming from those who should be in a better position to see a wider set of statistics and experiences as they get reports from all around the world. Elders are sometimes called "epi-skopos" in Greek, meaning overseers. When we consider those who literally watch over a flock closely, we might expect them to count the number of sick, the number who die, the number eaten, the number of sheep in various categories: mottled, speckled, young, old, male, female. They also know the dangers of taking them through "Wolf Ravine" or making them wade through "Poison Water River." Similarly, if the elders working at headquarters got 100 reports of divorces right after holding an international convention in Las Vegas or Amsterdam, but no reports of divorces every time they held the same size international conventions in Helsinki or Reykjavík, I think it would be a wise man-made rule not to schedule international conventions in Las Vegas or Amsterdam. Not all traditions make the word of God void.

The WTS had a program to pay for Law School for selected individuals already working full time at Bethel or other full time service who showed promise or aptitude for such. This program was dropped, and you can be sure that there those at HQ who were counting the cost, much like those shepherd counting the survivors of "Wolf Ravine." They reverted back the previous system of using volunteers who had finished Law School before becoming Witnesses.

Age 17.

But all scores that count are measured at the end of Junior year, not Senior year of American High School. Therefore it requires a conscious choice to pick the maximum number of advanced placement classes which could result in the best choices and scholarships and would therefore be a path chosen by age 15 or 16 at the latest.

Local papers print up the bio given by a Guidance Counselor office of each high school reporting on the scores of their "Valedictorians" and those who are accepted by certain colleges.

Asked and answered in a prior post.

So far, I believe well more than half of the GB says.   

I believe that since WE, if we hope to be noble-minded individuals, are responsible to search the Scriptures and see whether these things are so, then this must be WE not only THEM. And there are many ways to tell someone about the Kingdom hope, the paradise, the resurrection, God's purpose, God's government, and why it's got to be a sight better than what we are putting up with now. Sometimes the CLAM workbook is spot on, sometimes it doesn't fit my style at all.

@JW Insider Thank you for your patience and great response. 

The American way seems far different to the British way, in my opinion anyway., and it seems to reflect within the Org and on this forum. 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This might be true, but I think that you have had some trouble pinning this "GB worshiper" label on people here. You probably see a lot of potentially contradictory ideas that seem like cognitive dissonance to you. But this might just be a point that many thousands of JWs have reached, while trying to make sense of the extent of human imperfection in trying to put a human structure around good spiritual concepts.

We often look back at Israel's past, or even note the imperfect leadership of the early Christian congregation. Do we expect to be any better? Jesus said of the Pharisees and other religious leaders in his day that they had put themselves in the seat of Moses, and some ended up making "disciples" who were worse off than before they started. Yet what did Jesus also say about some of the same leaders?

Matthew 23:2-4 says: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.…

We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect.

Any organized religious structure will end up being led by men who are imperfect, and therefore by men that we can never trust 100 percent, no matter how well they think they are doing. This is really what we must always expect: "Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs" "Let God be found true though every man be found a liar."

Still, Christianity requires a human, social structure because it is a "brotherhood." It's a place where we can comfort others and be comforted, encourage others and be encouraged, feed and clothe and visit others, and be fed, clothed, and visited as needed. But those who would be "leaders" at the very top of any organization will always tend to grasp at reasons to explain and hold on to their authority. They may not well understand this authoritative position they are engaged in, and human nature will lead them to continue in the type of behavior that works best for persons in authority. They will tend to look for what they believe is the best solution to any religious questions (doctrine, process), and then make a "command" out of it. It's the reason that we don't see a lot of public admission that a question has them vexed. Instead, in order for authority to work (for most of us) they must make a private decision about what solution works the best (least number of unexplained discrepencies) and then teach this "solution" (often conjecture) as if it is gospel. 

(1 Peter 4:11) . . .If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God;. . .

(NIV) If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so.

Some of these "oracles" will attract sycophantic followers. That's also human nature. Russell acted as one of those "oracles" and so did Rutherford and Fred Franz, and David Splane to an extent. Just like in the first century congregation, people followed Paul, or Apollos, or Peter, who were all fine ministers. Some of us want to think of these modern day examples as being apostle-like. Some might even be apostle-like, but it's up to us to never just accept them this way, but to put all new teachings to the test.

(Revelation 2:2, 14) . . .and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars.. . . you have there those adhering to the teaching of Baʹlaam, . . . you also have those adhering to the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·laʹus. . . . you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel . . . I say to the rest of you who are in Thy·a·tiʹra, all those who do not follow this teaching . . .

Notice that Jesus' instructions to the 7 congregations was never about waiting for a governing body of apostle-like persons to tell them what was true and false teaching. It was the congregation's own responsibility to put to the test anyone who wanted them to be accepted as apostle-like. They were responsible to compare it to the true original apostolic source (for us, the Biblical source of teaching)  "Therefore, continue mindful of how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping it. . ." (Revelation 3:3)

As an aside, I would also say that the congregation is a place to inculcate the existing Bible teachings, not a place to find "new" teachings. It's a place to keep our spirits up, and keep our love alive, so that we can endure. Jesus addresses those in the congregations, but ends this section by making a point about how they all would stand to be judged as individuals.

(Revelation 3:19-22) 19 “‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline. So be zealous and repent. 20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his house and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”

We're never going to get away from leaders who are imperfect and who will, by human nature, tend to ask us to believe and act only in a certain way. This is useful for some, especially at first. But we should also mature:

(Hebrews 5:14) 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.

@JW Insider  Having just put my computer on (11 am UK time) I find i have eleven comments to read through. Your comment here is number one. So if anyone has already answered you I haven't read it yet, and I am just answering on this comment alone  

I see a lot of confusion here, but I'll try my best. 

Quote 'We're never going to get away from leaders who are imperfect and who will, by human nature, tend to ask us to believe 'and act only in a certain way. '   In short you are saying that the GB dictate to the congregants and the congregants are expected to obey. 

However, Quote 'Jesus' instructions to the 7 congregations was never about waiting for a governing body of apostle-like persons to tell them what was true and false teaching. It was the congregation's own responsibility to put to the test anyone who wanted them to be accepted as apostle-like.' 

(Revelation 2:2, 14) . . .and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars..

So there you have the GB that tells congregants to do as they are told and to  " believe 'and act only in a certain way. ' "

But Jesus said it was the congregations responsibility to put them to the test.  However if a member of a congregation does put the GB to the test, you and I know exactly what would happen to them. We can see on here what happens to anyone that should dare to say the GB are not the F&DS.  Even though the GB admit that they are not inspired.

And on that point, everyone should note that HUGE difference between our time, and the first century Christian time.

The leaders of first century Christianity WERE Inspired. The leaders, of any religion now are NOT inspired. That makes a huge difference when making any comparison. In fact IMO it takes away all comparison.  It also questions how anyone now would know if they are of the Anointed, if they are not inspired ? but maybe that is for another topic.

  2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. 

Well actually Jesus' disciples didn't practice and observe many of those things. Animal sacrifices, circumcision, probably the washing of hands (how many times ?)  etc.   

Quote "We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect."

But would you honestly want to ? Would you want to go door to door with a message, if in your heart you knew it was not a true message ?  Overlapping generations for instance?   And would not your heart be heavy if you obeyed just to remain 'true and faithful' to your leaders ?  Hence worshipping the GB and its Elders. 

For instance I remember reading on here, and I'm sorry i cannot reference it,  about the GB /Writing Dept / Watchtower, saying it was OK for witnesses to tell lies as it was Spiritual Warfare. It may have been referring to Elders under certain circumstances, but to give the ok to tell lies. I think it was from a Watchtower publication and it looked genuine when i read it. 

"Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs"

Didn't one of the GB make a statement that God trusts the GB so all congregants should trust the GB ?  Oh, I do wish I could find these things to show proof ! 

Anyway I'm sure you can see my quandary, and this is just with this one comment of yours. I have ten more comments to read yet. I need coffee  

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Come, come. This is not a gentleman's’ club. The only gentleman here is JWI, who astounds me with his civility, even in the face of downright hostile comments. I confess that I sometimes wonder if I should try to emulate him more.

His civility does him no good, however. Malcontents take his civility and beat him over the head with it. But he is of the sort who believes that theocracy dies in darkness, and I think their response does not matter to him,

It is a little mean, I will concede the point. And I have no problem apologizing. Still, when you take the stage to level the most outlandish accusations, ill-informed except for from the playbook of other opponents, you cannot cry if someone pointedly takes exception to your shooting from the hip.

It frankly didn’t make any sense to me. But if it makes you happy, Mr 4Jah2Me: “WORKBOOK.”

I do believer the Workbook is the item used at mid-week meetings, when telling the congregants exactly what they should be preaching. And as I had mentioned that congregants were told what to preach i thought it right to reference the Workbook. 

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

Quite strange that Mr Harley missed off the word WORKBOOK when he quoted me above. 

It would seem that some JW's on here wear blinkers and worship their Governing Body. So be it if it gives them comfort.

@Anna  Side tracks by comparing the GB to the Pope, instead of comparing the GB to God's high standards of truth and honesty. 

Mr Harley side tracks by trying to make fun of others. 

I have mentioned before that i could feed you a meal of ¾ good food and ¼ poison. The problem being that the poison would contaminate the good food. 

The Bible Students and the JW Org have indeed produced some really 'good food', but unfortunately the GB go beyond the things written and jump ahead by interpreting Bible scriptures in their own way, without spiritual guidance it would seem. You don't need to ask me for examples as it's all been shown on this blog here before. 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Well, just shows you can't make people do what you want them to do, people will always do what THEY want to do in the end. The only exception is if they are drugged. It is implied by some on here that the GB controls everyone. Evidently not true 😀

 

@Anna   To quote you "It is implied by some on here that the GB controls everyone. "  

The GB try to control everyone within the Org, but as you say there are 'rebels'. (Moses used a similar word).

It would seem to me, though only my opinion, that there are many so called JW's, that are physically in, but mentally/ spiritually out, of the Org. Or at least not in agreement with the GB on many issues. 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This could be true for some. No one was telling me I couldn't go to college, though. Their concern was that it would set a poor example to appoint an elder and then the congregation simultaneously found out I was going to college. But if a congregation needs elders, there is almost no difference in the amount and types of assignments given to ministerial servants. Even as an MS, I had been giving 5 different public talks (3 from the outlines), and was still being invited to give some of them in different congregations every few weeks. I believe I had either the 15 minute "Instruction Talk" or a 15 minute part on the Service Meeting about 3 times a month. And I was not told I had to pioneer, while attending college, but had offered this idea as a way to show that college was a not a full time priority in my life. No one held me to it anyway, as I only could manage pioneering for two more years. In my third year I was offered a great job and started it before graduation.

But still, it's always good counsel to give to anyone who is thinking about college, that they think about their priorities before making a decision. I've given the same counsel to others, but I make sure they still know it's their own choice, and we wish them all the best outcomes.

But then 30 years later, the issue comes up again with my own children. The need to step down as an elder if your kids go to college is not enforced consistently, at least in the United States. When children get large scholarships it can make it more sensible economically to go to a four year college, but it still gives the impression that you are putting economic and material interests ahead of the urgency necessary based on the shortness of the time to the end. The issue of setting a good example is not just for the congregation, but also the fact that you might not even have your own family in "subjection." Of course, kids go to college when they are 18, and I don't believe in "subjection" at this point in their lives. I believe in learning from my kids, and letting myself be subjected to hearing about what they are learning. 

I am not concerned too much about the Society's position on higher education. At this point, the economic benefits are too often a trap due to the high cost and doubtful employment outcomes. And although I'm sure I'd be welcomed to return as an elder, I am happy with all the things that can be done without the title. Also, you might know that I have a lot of difficulty navigating platform assignments that promote shunning, 1914, the sign, the generation, the "presence," and few other things on which we might well be right, but are too dogmatic about. I'm happy to wait until the pendulum swings in the direction of less dogma. Titles are not important.

@JW Insider  No disrespect but you didn't actually answer my questions, unless I'm a bit blind

Quote "The need to step down as an elder if your kids go to college is not enforced consistently,.."

NEED to step down, seems to show a dictated instruction. In my opinion it is a Man Made rule, not a direction from God. I would lump it into the 'traditions of men' category.   What do you think on that ?

Also I asked how old your 'child' was when they went to a college a long way away. Surely if they are of a certain age to make their own decisions then it was out of your hands. And why should the newspapers get knowledge of it ? 

The latter half of you last paragraph made me laugh. Quote " I have a lot of difficulty navigating platform assignments that promote .... " etc,  Um, a tactful way of saying 'I don't believe half of what the GB say but I'll stick with it anyway'   

And the, Quote "on which we might well be right .."  Fact is it's not WE that might well be right, it's following the GB's interpretations. There is no WE. There is only THEM ( at the top) and  congregants (at the bottom) .  And the congregants go out and preach exactly what they are told to preach (Workbook).  

Smiley faces as I'm trying not to be too serious about all this. No offence meant on any of it. 

So the rules of men stopped you serving God as much, in what you would describe as a good capacity (Elder). 

How old was your youngest when they chose to go to that college / uni ? 

I would ask again. Where did the GB's Lawyers get their qualifications from ? 

Where did the planners / designers of the 'new' HQ get their qualifications from ? 

But no, GB = dictatorship.

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

This will soon be so. Governments will clamp down on ANY organization which enforces biblical law... I see you do not get it.  ..the tide against ALL Christian' laws/principles  is turning.

It will be up to the individual to decide to vote, not take a blood transfusion, or not condone unchristian behaviour,  by cutting association with those who approve LGBT or any other prohibition imposed God.  You do not get it - this is the 'beginning ' of governments enforcing their new moral laws on all Christian's and especially those who stand out for their obedience to laws which other christians do not care about.  In England and Scandinavia people are going to prison or taken into custody for talking against Islam and LGBT - soon it will include voting, blood transfusions and shunning.... and much more........ the world will take away freedom of choice and impose their humanist/satanic laws on us under the guise of human rights.

 

 

If blood is soooo sacred in the eyes of the GB / Org, they why do the GB 'allow' JW's to accept fractions of HUMAN BLOOD ?

I would have thought the mere 'messing about' with / disecting of, human blood would be seen as wrong. That blood has been removed from someone's body. Shouldn't all blood removed be 'pored out on the ground' ? 

On this subject, can someone tell me exactly how many different types of blood fractions JW's are 'allowed' to use ? I have tried to research it but it get confusing to me. 

On a wider scale of things though,it definitely shows that the GB are the GOVERNING BODY, dictating rules of men,doesn't it ?

Didn't Jesus say how wrong that was ? Lording it over the congregation. 

God is going to judge us through Christ, so do we really need to be dictated to by men ? Are we not allowed to have a conscience ?  Guidelines, yes, but man made rules dictated to servants of God, no. Especially as failures of those in charge are easily seen. It seems like some here want to go back to the lie told about the 'Superior Authorities' just to gain more power over the earth wide congregation.. 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

 

 

You seem to have a lot of mixed feelings about speculation; when its appropriate to speculate, and with whom. And that's okay.  One thing you seem sure of though, David Splane is not telling the truth about the "new light" concerning "this generation".  

Yes, "assumed" in the most wicked sense of the word.  

Assume - "seize and take control without authority and possibly with force; take as one's right or possession"

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."  Matt 24:48-51

 

Yes I've noticed that some JW's  dig themselves into big holes with their words. 

They think they are defending the GB and it's Org but they make it quite clear of the faults in both. Don't they actually think about what they are writing  

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Not if you take what they say as speculation on their part. Which is what I think it is. Anyone has the right to speculate. I have no qualms telling Br.Splane that I think his chart is based on speculation. And I'm sure he'd reply that that's my opinion. In which case he is right too. No harm done, we both have our opinion. It's not as if "the Generation" is a fundamental teaching required for salvation is it?

@Anna Sorry but i think you are being naive on this point or deliberately not wanting to see the truth of it. 

I have to agree with @Witness (above post) on this issue, on two points.

1. If it is offered as spiritual food from 'Jehovah's table' then it should be fact not speculation. 

2. If a person makes mention of disagreeing with the GB / Org's 'teachings' they can be disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'...  

A question though. If     "It's not as if "the Generation" is a fundamental teaching required for salvation is it? " 

Then, if they have no 'proof' of their claim, why can't they just say "We don't know" 

Why do the GB / Writing Dept' et al have to pretend that they know more than they actually do know ?

It only shows people that those at the top are 'running ahead' and not waiting on Jehovah / Jesus Christ for true guidance. 

58 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

@JOHN BUTLERmight give you some tips. You seem to have something in common.

Who is he and what do we have in common ?