Patiently waiting for Truth

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Patiently is confused about Rando (who is not NoisySrecko/BillyTheKid) . . .

And BroRando is confused about Patiently who is not "Witness" or "Pearl."

To be honest, from my viewpoint, this is all tongue in cheek. It helps me to laugh at some of the accusations that are flung at me by certain ones...... I do however find that I am 'condemned to death' by those I've mentioned. It seems to be a patern. 

@JW Insider Thank you for this fantastic comment above. Very constructive and very informative. 

I like this bit :-

The issues that come into play are about how many non-Christians were expected to be saved through Armageddon. Russell had given his opinion that only a very few would be "slaughtered" and that the vast majority of mankind living would accept the government that came to the fore after Armageddon (and Rutherford had not yet adjusted this view). In fact, as late as 1928, Rutherford could claim that he had not changed "a jot or tittle" from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures."

Russell must have thought that Armageddon would not be as destructive as some magazines had shown, and that the ones slaughterd would have been on an individual basis, to allow the majority to survive. I am actually of that opinion myself. I like the scripture where Jesus says 

Berean Literal Bible
And Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid it; for whoever is not against us is for us." (Luke 9 : 50)

To me this has a deeper meaning.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Under Knorr/Franz, the expectation changed from what appears to be at least 5% to 10% surviving, down to about 0.1% surviving. (99.9% of the world population to be slaughtered, as FWF put it.)

I think this is a very sad change of thought, and I don't believe it to be true.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That number apparently came from the fact that the number of Witnesses compared to the rest of the population was also about 0.1%. Today, if you include all Memorial attendees, the number begins to approach 0.3%. So maybe only 99.7%?

I think this also is sad. And once again i do not believe it to be true to what will actually happen.

We know that 'the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one', but it doesn't mean that all people  in that 'world' are deliberately wicked. 

From a Christian loving viewpoint it seems that Russell, and even Rutherford at first, had a very merciful and loving heart. But as the JW Org has 'progessed' it seems to have become a very hardened heart throughout. 

Would you be kind enough to tell me the 'official standpoint' / teaching / doctrine of the Watchtower/GB/Org, as to who will survive Armageddon and what Armageddon will consit of.  Or where would i find the answer ? 

Thank you once again for your time and patience on this topic. 

23 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Although he did not understand enough to realize who Jehovah and Christ Jesus really were, he came to understand the principles they stood for, but the previous collateral damage was immense and horrendous.

I cannot believe that Jehovah God, and his Christ will not give him full credit, or if not full credit, at lease "a passing grade" when his life is examined.

This is the most loving and sensible comment I have read from you. 

However, you did note that he repented of his sins, and I would think he was not of the Anointed at the time of his sins.

Now, the colateral damage caused by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Wtnesses, that GB proclaiming to be of the Anointed. Is there such forgiveness of sins for Anointed ones ?  That is not for me to judge. But the GB seem to continue to 'sin' against the Anointed ones and continue to say that only the GB are the F&DS.  Perhaps if they were to step down and repent for their sins, they may be forgiven, that's not for me to judge.

23 hours ago, Pudgy said:

both inside and outside of the "Truth"

what 'Truth' is that then ?  You cannot mean the JW Org.   

I was just thinking that most of the aggression on this forum seems to come  from those people who say they are JWs. 

As for puppies, they consume meat, they poop everywhere and they need constant care. 

When I go walking I wear these large 'cans' (blue headphones) attached to an MP3, and I listen to music. People look at me and laugh. An old man wearing 'cans'.  Then I look at all the people carrying little red bags. Bags of poo which they have to clean up when their little doggy has pood in a public place.  My 'cans' provide pleasure and need no attention. I laugh at all these people trying to pick up all the poo. 

23 hours ago, Pudgy said:

and there is ALWAYS a plentiful supply!

And this is because it's big business. People here in England sell puppies for hundreds of pounds. 

Noisysrecko = Rando = Billy the kid = a dozen other Aka's   It's so funny. 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

But if your church teaches immortality of the soul ( you have been taught a lie) . But if your church has taught you that christ was immortal God and never died (because an immortal cannot die) - then you do not accept the ransom sacrifice. ... So the church you choose can mean your everlasting  life or death

But the TRUE 'Church' is the ANOINTED.  I'm sure you already know that Aruana. 

The Temple of Living Stones with Jesus Christ as the Corner Stone. 

The church isn't a building and it isn't a religion. 

I am happy that my questions have provided food for thought. 

It is rather a shame that they have brought some comments from people who appear to be spiritualy unwell (Rando) and from people that just wish to divert conversation.

13 hours ago, Anna said:

I think it must have been kind of ambiguous and not clear cut as it is today.

I would love you to widen out on this part of your comment Anna. I don't actually know the very latest teaching on this.

I was taught that a person must be a baptised JW to be 'in the Ark' of the Organisation, but I don't know if that is still taught so strictly. 

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On another note : I was quite surprised to find that Mr Rando is in the JW ONLY club. Someone must think that Rando is really a JW ???    

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I would also draw Patiently’s attention to the full-blown nudity displayed right on the cover. How shocking!

YOU would think of that, because you are a 'physical man' not a 'spiritual man'.  

Thank you @JW Insider for this link and the other one.

https://watchtowerdocuments.org/documents/1920_Millions_Now_Living_Will_Never_Die.pdf

Page 94 

HOW TO LIVE FOREVER

The church systems would have the people believe that only those who become church members can be saved.

The Bible never taught any such doctrine.

The Lord never organized the nominal systems, and the true church is but a little flock, who shall inherit the kingdom of heaven, and the others of the world do not inherit it. To the church Jesus said: 'Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom'. (Luke 12 : 32) Jesus died not only for those who will constitute the members of the church, but for all. St. John plainly stated: 'He is the propitiation [satisfaction] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole worldv.-1 John 2: 2. 

I think this proves one point that i was making.   

And here we seem to have an answer 

Page 97

Then it shall come to pass that every one who will keep the saying of the Lord shall never see death. This promise would not have been made by Jesus if he did not intend to carry it into full force and effect in due time. Again he said: 'Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die". (John 11 : 26) Do we believe the Master's statement? If so, when the time comes for the world to know, then they who believe and, of course, render themselves in obedience to the terms have the absolute and positive statement of Jesus that they shall never die.

 Based upon the argument heretofore set forth, then, that the old order of things, the old world, is ending and is therefore passing away, and that the new order is coming in, and that 1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old and the beginning of reconstruction, it is reasonable to conclude that millions of people now on the earth will be still on the earth in 1925. Then, based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die. 

18 hours ago, Anna said:

I was always under the impression that he was predicting exactly what he said, that millions living at the time he wrote those words, would never die. You already mentioned that he believed 1925 would be the year when mankind would be blessed and vengeance brought upon the wicked (and the ancient worthies would be resurrected and live in San Diego). 

It's nice to read your words here. But how did you relate that to the point that the IBSA under Rutherford didn't consist of 'millions' of people ?

I would have thought that he meant it literally too, as he was offering this 'information' to the public, and the public would not be thinking in a spiritual way. 

18 hours ago, Anna said:

I just browsed very quickly through the thread, I may have missed it...

You haven't missed it but unfortunately I think @JW Insider is reluctant to answer my questions directly.  Unless JWI enjoys the power  of knowing things we don't know.  

An original copy of The Harp is available on ebay UK for less than 20 GBP. I'm tempted to buy it

And all this is more important than talking about the JW Org's teachings on certain matters ?????? 

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 

Tell it to Merriam Webster: 

Definition of association

2: an organization of persons having a common interest : 

 

 https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/association

 (bolding mine)

The words are synonymous. Nothing to get all worked up over. You haven’t discovered the smoking gun. Sheesh.

Pestilential as Srecko may be, he does not make such ridiculous statements. He makes other ridiculous statements.

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You’re not.

You live in such a bizarre world of conspiratorial initials that even if one is inclined to answer you one barely knows what to say.

That's a bit of a contradiction as you managed to answer @Srecko Sostar when he had agreed with my earlier comments. It seem to point out that you do not wish to converse with me in a Christian manner. That's your choice.

However, IBSA  = International Bible Students ASSOCIATION. That was not an Organisation. 

Another point (which may interest @Space Merchant ) in connection with the IBSA.  It seems that it still exists, but as a Real Estate dealership. 

IBSA London Properties is part of IBSA (International Bible Students Association) a registered charity acting on behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Britain and Ireland. For more information about Jehovah’s Witnesses please follow this link.

13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Weren't some of these addressed a while back? I remember someone quoting 4Castle.

I've never heard of 4Castle. 

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism” 1 Peter 3:21

You would have us believe that Rutherford meant any baptism by just any old church?

It's strange that you answer @Srecko Sostar  in this way, but you would not answer me. 

This does bring up another question though. The IBSA was an association, not an Organisation.  If I'm right then they didn't have Leaders as such because each congregation 'ruled over itself'.  So there was no 'church' structure as such. 

In fact I think Russell was against there being an Organisation. Now that obviously changed later when Rutherford took over. 

So now, this brings the question, Who was 'qualified' to baptise others at the time of Rutherford.

In the 1st century the disciples / apostles were firstly chosen by Jesus, then later they were Anointed. 

It also brings up the question as to who is, in God's viewpoint, qualified to baptise people now. 

Like i keep saying Mr Rando is just an AKA for another trouble maker here. He also seems, like others here, to be very sexist. There seems to be a few people on here that dispute ladies being part of the Anointed.  

23 hours ago, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

This teaching of only IBSA's or the JW's surviving through the G.T. and/or The Big "A" is, I thought, THE whole REASON for the preaching work or the ministry work. I can even remember it being spoken of as our spiritual act of worship. So what could possibly be a problem with PwfT saying, "So it would be good to know exactly who Rutherford expected to 'continue living," ?

23 hours ago, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

( BTW, during the reign of Rutherford there wasn't even 1 million members yet, so might he have been talking about those who were not yet members,

Thank you very much for your time and patience and understanding. It is something JWs appear to lack here.

I didn't answer 'Rambo'  because he is someone else, an AKA, and just looking for trouble.  I do not believe he/she is a JW.

Quoting you here :

This teaching of only IBSA's or the JW's surviving through the G.T.  (red highlight mine)

The IBSA was an Association, whereas the JW's is an Organisation.

I do not believe that the IBSA was a 'closed shop'. And, as you pointed out,  there wasn't even 1 million members yet.

I do believe that Rutherford was talking about those humans that were physically living at that time, never dying. 

So, my feeling is that Rutherford (when he took over from Russell) may have felt that many people that were not associated with the IBSA, would be judged as 'worthy' of 'saving' through Armageddon. 

But then Rutherford 'branched off' and formed an Organisation, Jehovah's Witnesses. 

Now back in the 1960's when i first started studying with JW's, I was told that the 'Org' was the 'new Ark'.  I was taught that anyone in the Org/Ark was 'safe', but all those outside the Org/Ark would die. Obviously the idea being based on Noah and his family being counted as righteous and therefore keptsafe in that Ark.

So I think that somewhere between the IBSA / Rutherford, and the 1960's, the line of thought changed from 'Millions' being saved, to, 'only JWs being saved'.  

However, I think there is a swing back to the idea, that many humans outside the JW Org, will be counted as worthy of 'saving'.  

I really thought that @JW Insider  would have given me a sensible answer as he has vast knowledge of JW doctrine / teachings. However it seems, Et tu brute, JWI. 

Thank you once again ABLJ. 

Good night all. I'll pop back tomorrow to read further comments. 

13 hours ago, BroRando said:

Maybe you're the LIAR?

Fake man or woman that you are, you must be getting quite close to blasphemy. 

It seems that you and Tom are almost accusing Jesus of telling lies. 

Your misuse of scripture is certainly not Christian behavior, so not worthy of note.

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If you think people are really frightened from your question, then this might go to motive. I can answer your question and I just might, but what of it if Rutherford was all wrong?

You JWs on here love to paint me all black and evil. So be it, but I find it funny  

You obvously didn't want to understand my questions. I even said

13 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

(At this point it matter not that his prediction failed. More to the point of who he expected to live on).

But this is the main point 

13 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

And when Rutherford's breakaway 'group' were named Jehovah's Witnesses, did his idea change from 'Millions' now living will never die, to, Only JWs now living will never die ?

This is a very important issue. Because this makes a big difference in what the Watchtower / Org teaches.

THIS is what JWs are frightened of. Frightened of TRUTH. 

Keep kicking me down because it strengthens my faith in Almighty God through Christ. 

If I'm right what RUSSELL had built up was an Association of Bible Students possibly earthwide ? 

So, what Rutherford had taken over was this Association of Bible Students. But Rutherford broke away from that and formed an Organisation naming it Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931.

Now, this creates a question.  Who were the Millions now living that would never die ? 

This was 1918. Pre-JW.  International Bible Student era.  So exactly who did Rutherford expect to 'never die' ? 

(At this point it matter not that his prediction failed. More to the point of who he expected to live on).

And when Rutherford's breakaway 'group' were named Jehovah's Witnesses, did his idea change from 'Millions' now living will never die, to, Only JWs now living will never die ?

There must have come a time when the quantity of people expected to continue living decreased rapidly. Because Rutherford's JWs would have been far less than the original International Bible Students Association. 

Report posted. Hope you get a warning. 

Ezra is concerning the Nation of Israel. Are you a Jew and still living under Law ? 

The Timothy scripture applies to your GB and Elders, but was written for the Anointed.

Like I say, you are a fake, but quite a funny one  

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No, but it raises a better one.

Please address Jesus’ words that seemingly make him a liar: 

“and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.”

Like I say, Losers trying to take it off topic.  It really does prove that you are frightened of my questions.

Doesn't answer my questions.

I'm interested in this big change of thought from the idea of, millions of individuals that would continue living, to the idea of, 'only Jehovah's Witnesses will continue living'. 

So it would be good to know exactly who Rutherford expected to 'continue living'.  

Rambo you are a fake and a loser. It doesn't take long for you losers to try to take it off topic.